B767 Direct Entry Captains at GF

[Yo767]

I've just heard that GF has resumed hiring direct entry captains on the 767 fleet. 4 Canadians on the way. I havent talked to my boss yet so it is not confirmed. Hope GF didnt lie to us waiting for upgrade and turning down interviews elsewhere... GF is not in a position to absorb a second exodus on the 767 fleet believe me, 6 days off on Feb roster.

Anyone can confirm the rumors?:sad:

[JoeJack]

Yep, heard the same. 4 on the way and at least 4 more to come. This is usual GF bull****. They'll say they can't cope with all the training drive and have to do this... so, why don't they hire short-term CPTs on 767 just like on A330/A340?
My guess is that RP-C is just running things with an eye on its retirement... bad for us...:{

[tic]

Joe Jack (ass)

Your comments about RC are unfounded, and un-true.The fairest man I have ever met. Don't you think he may be between a 'rock and a hard place'. He has been in GF for nearly 30 yrs, it certainly is not in his interest to see it collapse.Capt's leave for all sorts of reasons and 767 fleet ( GF/GT ), is no exception, but to blame it on him is wrong. Fact is, Capt's are leaving, and F/O's too, due many factors, but certainly not his fault. Despite the route structure that we have on 767, which is awful for many of us, compared to 330/340 crew, and they are not entirely happy either, don't you perhaps think, that if GF made it worth-while to stay, then perhaps people would??? , not just flight deck.It must cost GF a fortune to train pilots,and cabin crew, and then have them leave after a year or so. Better to try and keep them if they fit the bill. Make terms and conditions better, even more-so, than the competition, and then we'll see who want's to leave, despite the routes. The ones that have left, and are leaving, are doing so for their own reasons, but the fact remains, they must be replaced, otherwise the whole 767 operation grinds to a halt. That can't be allowed to happen. Is it no wonder that DEC's, HAVE to be employed. Certainly no fault of RC.

[Bedouin]

Couldn’t agree with you more RPC is a very honourable man, but do disagree with the need for DEC. The standard of some DEC and experience has certainly been questionable and given the same training DEC get, some of the FO in the company would produce very good Captains.

Again it comes down to previous management lack of competence in planning of training Captains and training in general. Other companies with far less resources are capable of upgrading within maybe it is time to change the way Gulf Air trains pilot and look at how others do it or get them to help do it.

If Hogan is serious on having an efficient Airline, Flight Ops needs to be looked at because every pilot they lose cost the company, as some Airlines quote approx $60 000 US for initial training. Figures I believe is Gulf Air is losing 6 pilots a month or $4 320 000 US a year in lost profits.

There is also a FO shortage if there is no career in Gulf Air why stay and the planes will still not fly. DEC might solve your immediate shortage but the lack of faith will cause far more to look else where, I will.

[billy34-kit]

Bedouin,
I cannot agree with you more!!

I hope it's only a rumor, if not......I guess there's only one thing to do!!!

By the way, I have a message for the guys who LIKE to work during their days off , or willing to accept any last minute change to help the company,....I just hope you're gonna feel betrayed when those DEC guys will fly on the left seat you were looking for!!!!!!

Just for your information, the company I was working for back home always hired guys on short term contract training captain to give the simulator and then the company released them when done....All we need is good willing from the company.

Yo767, feel sorry for you....you were so close!!!!!!

[JoeJack]

Tic,

I totally agree with your point on conditions improvement being a major drive for people to stay.
I also haven't said that RPC is a dishonorable man or that he wants to see GF collapse or that DEC are his fault. Not at all.
I just mentioned that he might be choosing the easiest way to accomplish what the "upper" management expects from him: Crew the B767s. Of course changes in the upgrade policy do not depend solely on him, but each one of the guys up there could give its best.

Bedouin

Spot on. I had the same calculation... has anyone showed this to James Hogan???;)

Cheers

JJ

[Icarus]

No need to worry about showing it to JH, he is a regular reader! (not me BTW!).

Seeing as he has just cut most peoples budget for '05 considerably I hope he reads it in the very near future!

Especially as some of his side-kicks consistently produce business cases as weak as the tea off the HDQ trollies and with as much fore-'sight' as the male component of 'Peters & Lee'!

Give it 3-5 years and GF will realise how much of a corner it has mopped itself into in terms of a business strategy. The trouble is, by then it will be far too late to get out. By 2010 GF will have to shrink to the size of Oman Air and run a similar business plan and operation.

Get your hours (and money) in now while you can, it isn't going to last for much longer.

[Safari Goat]

The guys coming from Canada is true.

I have waited for upgrade and it keeps getting further away all the time.

Anyhow, more will leave just like the 4 training captains that departed the otherday to go to The other carrier in Abu Dhabi.

Should we wait or go?........ I will go.

Thanks for playing the game, rules have changed, PULL CHOCKS!!

See ya

[Flying Camel]

Just talked to a recruiter very interested in taking as many as he can has opening coming up and is willing to give an a incentive to start immediately, he to needs to keep his company flying to.

I thought that this would be a dishonourable thing to do, not to give notice, but it is certainly dishonourable to lie about upgrading, take your leave without notice and not provide a NOC when you complete your contract and give notice.

Start talking when you see the crews on turn around and we will have info passed on to the people interested. Don’t need everyone on the Internet to know.

Good luck Gulf Air in summer you will need it.

[ironbutt57]

1) It's kind of tough to continue with the upgrades when there are not enough F.O's as it is

2) DEC's once on line, will free up the trainers to do just that..train upgrades, and the DEfo's will free up the senior fo's to continue the upgrade process...

3) NOBODY at ANY management level is happy to hire DEC's, all are painfully aware of the negative impact on morale, but they're less happy to cancel flights...the lesser of two evils is the way it was put to me when I inquired...

4) Please be patient...good things come to those who wait...(eventually)

[Left Coaster]

I'd like to know how it came to be that all these reportedly Canadian DEC have been hired, as no one has been interviewed, or even offered an interview much less been asked to join. Yo 767 might be overreacting, and a little emotional here. Which, of course is very understandable. Wait until it has been comfirmed...then react. (Just like you've learned to do in the sim)

[tundra runner]

great more Air Cabbage wonders or real charter pilots coming? Since I already paid my rent for a year here 6 months vacation waiting for the ban to expire is not so hard to imagine, couple tourists visas in and out and then off to the competition. maybe if these training pilots figured out how to push through candidates from right to left seat things would go quicker . Take the parking brake off then we will move!!!:yuk:

[Basic Theory]

tundra runner,

Don’t come in on a tourist visa during your 6 month ban because the ban will start again. You have to be out of the country!

Check out the 9 month notice period in your contract!

[Flying Camel]

Article (96)a) Person who is debarred from entry for employment due to cancellation of their residence for employment in the country, and a stamp is fixed on their passport banning them from entry for employment for six months from the last date leaving the country.

Notice period is 3 months plus 6 month ban. You can come in if you are on the list of countries that get visit visas on arrival. You just cant gain employment.

UAE are removing the ban, as stated by the Minister, as no FTA can be reached with most countries with out that lifted of course things do happen here at there own pace here.

There are plenty of jobs elsewhere for the summer then come back.

[Basic Theory]

Flying Camel

Be careful, someone has just experienced the problems of the ban starting again if you enter the country, even if you are on the list of countries that get visit visas on arrival you might want to do a little more research!

I believe, in the situation where you have entered the country on a visit visa and your ban has started again, you then have to approach you previous employer for an NOC, back to square one or stay out of the country for the new ban. So much for the contract you signed.
:yuk:

[ironbutt57]

Think the quote included the word "considering" lifting the ban....

[Left Coaster]

BTW, whoever mentioned that these DEC's were from "Air Cabbage?" Seems to me they are not giving out any more LOA's as they will be needing to recall right about now? So where is your info coming from?
:confused:

[fatbus]

They are for some at Air Arabia

[billy34-kit]

...Just received a letter from the big boss, company will stop two destinations deserved by the 767 by April. I don't know what does it mean in term of crew demands....for upgrade!!!!

[Flying Camel]

Colombo and Casablanca gone and now Jakarta reduced service because certain Arab companies steal and abuse workers and use inept labour laws to get away with it.

Sounds like Gulf Air.

Thank Goodness I have already have application sent out. It does not look good for Gulf Air Destinations cancelled and reduced, new destination not started and aircraft retuned.

Seen it before and the Airlines no longer exist but everything is OK

[Left Coaster]

Are you saying that GF abuses their Jakarta passengers? Because if you read your post closely, that's exactly what you state...Hope that'e not the intent.
As far as dropping routes, how do you spell unfair competition? Etihad and the others have undercut pricing so low there are no profits left..what would you propose, keep on flying on a route that loses money or look for other more lucrative flying? (Airline Bizzness 101)
In addition there actually are more routes being developed, but did you actually think that you would be included in the marketing and commercial planning program? No way should the "big boss" include any non commercial personnel in that sort of decision making, we all complain that he's wrong and we know better. How is that? I don't have the books or anything else at my disposal and neither do you, so relax, do your job and leave if you want, it won't change anything for you anyway. the whole industry is much the same. But good luck anyway...oh by the way...your attitude is showing! :\ :uhoh:

[Northern_Driver]

GF is a airline that will not exist for long due to high competition in the Gulf area. Get out while you still can:sad:

[ironbutt57]

Go ahead northern driver...get out...but somehow think you're not in to begin with...while many "gubmint handout airlines" service unprofitable routes to "maintain a market presence", thanks to previous "management" GF can ill afford to do this...so we are regrouping and becoming a real market driven airline...for better or for worse...and the nay-sayers are not welcome here...wish GF would give u all an NOC to hit the road....and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out....the rest of us are rising to the challenge..want to be a part of it?... or sit at home and whine and write backstabbing posts on the internet...challenge any one of you to e-mail your concerns to the "big kahuna" before slagging us all off here on Pprune..."incoming"...."thar you go"

[Left Coaster]

Ah herd thyat...By the way, as the airline industry in this part of the world shows off their J----son's and brags about who has the biggest, I see that the reductions in other airlines amount to $$$ coming out of pockets of pilots, I don't see any coming out of mine. GF seems to have a handle on where the routes are and not having to undercut to put arses in seats. Show me yields on over- subsribed routes and I'll show you zero revenue. Get out while I still can? Why? Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it...:{

[ironbutt57]

I've surely been down "history trail" the hard way...been with GF 2 years...got 3 raises....could bitch and moan 'bout lots of things.....but could also be at a "big" airline going backwards....think I'll stay put:cool: :cool:..."thar u go":}

[Basic Theory]

“wish GF would give u all an NOC to hit the road”

Your are correct GF should be forthcoming with NOC’s but then they would have to either match terms and conditions or face losing a substantial number of both flight crew and cabin crew.

We can all renounce the obvious but the bottom line is giving up routes and aircraft is not a good sign, and goes against the current trend in the Gulf! I was of the opinion that CMB was a money making route.

Lets wait and see, still the best paint job!

[ironbutt57]

Well...I,m...'merican...and YO-nited, Delta, and the rest followed the "current trend"...Southwest didn't...and look at them all now....we might have hauled lots of pax out of CMB..and the gross revenue might have looked great...but where are they terminating, and do the transit/handling costs offset the operating costs?..folks with the big picture have made the decisions...they see the NET REVENUES generated by these markets, and apparently they didn't add up so let's put our assets to work in new markets, or increased frequencies in existing markets...my carrier in Cal. 22 yrs ago resisted the trend of buying big airplanes, and just used existing smaller, less exciting, EXISTING assets, (aircraft) to increase frequencies in markets that were viable, and if not, we just pulled out with no "love lost"..that was Wings West Airlines...now American Eagle...the sole survivor of about 10 carriers that came and went in half a decade, while we as pilots all bitched and moaned in the crew lounge about the competition getting fancy big planes...all the folks who laughed at us and our small turboprops eventually wound up below us on our seniority list.... carriers in the Gulf are going to be forced to be commercially viable...reality is just around the corner....so let's let the chips fall where they may...and the best of luck to all of us and the families we feed..(isn't that the real issue here?) and keep the opinions coming...:cool:...and "never say never" and by the way...I just got a raise...not huge...covers my transportation costs....did you?

[Left Coaster]

Thar ya go...It's all about the revenue. NOT about "we always flew there and we HAVE to because I like the hotel and the girls were...." you get the picture. As soon as this part of the gulf realises that the stream of money should be IN and not OUT, maybe the ride will settle down a bit. Still wondering if any of the "whingers" (sp?) know anything about Airline Bizzness 101...

[ironbutt57]

"Thar you go" ......if u have a house that is mobile and 12 cars that are not...u might be a redneck......or a GT pilot!!!!:} :} :} :cool:....or a Canadian...

[Basic Theory]

Seems we are surrounded by experts, some of which have been in the locality for 10 minutes, just interested in facts not fiction, aviation in the Middle East does not necessary follow conventional business models. Political forces will unfortunately probably prevail!

:D

[Left Coaster]

Do you mean political as in who knows whom? or who is related to so and so? If that's what you you mean the we're all scr*wd...cause that's what got this place in a bad spot before. I see a change, and actually, contrary to the last poster who has a poor idea of time, some of us have been in a lot longer than they might believe....(oh no!) But that's the bizzness I suppose, lot's think they know, but they don't F***in know...Thar ya go...:}

[ironbutt57]

Yeah well there "basic theory" u're surrounded by some with combined 60 yrs in the business been there seen it....so come along for the ride and see it for the first time..as we have seen it all before....."welcome my friend to the show that never ends...so glad you could attend....come inside...come inside"......PT Barnum....name ring a bell..????:confused: :eek: oh yeah..i almost forgot...."thar u go"

[ironbutt57]

nyway at the end of the day....L.O.B.......:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool:

[airwaya457]

I think you all owe Yo767 an apology, commandeering his thread.

Slightly off topic boys!

When are the 4 new DEC coming?

LOB

:confused:

[Left Coaster]

No apology needed I'm afraid, the jumping to conclusions and accusations of commiting bizzness suicide are all based on innuendo and the ONLY fact here is that GF is closing some routes and opening others...there was no hijack as the original post was a simply a rant based on a rumour (that's what this network is mostly about!) So relax guys we're all just having a little go at the panic situation that's not really much to panic about! DEC's will come and go and the upgrade issue is really separate, in other words, to commercially keep an airline staffed at reasonable (not proper...!) levels an operator reserves the right to put crews where they are needed the most. To cover this sometimes DEC's are needed, it's not popular, but it has to be done, otherwise serious loss of revenue can occur. To train the upgrade candidates might take longer in certain situations, (DGCAM requirements not company) and is being addressed as quickly as manpower can handle it. So look at both sides, loss of revenue due to shortages of crew means loss of jobs...loss of time to upgrade sucks, but you still have a position, take your pick. I know which makes sense to me. Have a great day.
LC:ok:

[ironbutt57]

and Thar u have it:}

[RevMan Plan]

Just some info (all prices are return exc taxes).

EY are selling CMB-AUH-LON at £250, and CMB-AUH at a very low £121.
EY have a 'bums of seat' strategy as they are new and for them all they care about is market share ... breaking even is probably low down on the list, let alone making profit.

For GF, if they chose to move the 767 from CMB to say BOM, lowest fare on BOM-AUH is £200.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what is better £121 vs £200.

From the outside, appears GF is getting more of a commercial head - remember prior to QR and EY, GF ran a similar type of ops - and they nearly went bankrupt.
Agree that politics does play a part, but what EK are doing is getting you to stopover in DXB (rather than transit), so you spend some $$$'s in the emirate.

[fatbus]

scan,

dream on , it cost the company less to get DEC's than train f/o's to the left seat and hire and train another f/o to take your place
the bean counter's love it and that's all that counts right now don't go off on that's not right or it's not safe because it will fall on deft ears
as stated above it's the quick fix and the airlines like that way

[scanscanscan]

The problem of DEC has been solved in unionised airlines in the past by paying bypass salery to the affected first officer and protecting their seniority number.
Gulf Air would be wise to follow this solution today as having ignored other well established guidelines in the past the results were not cost effective.

Hi Fats,
It is a cost effective world.
Just traded my girlfriend for a more cost effective option from further East.
Cheers Scan

[Bedouin]

Notice the people justifying DEC are Capt. Hypocrites they were upgraded.

If they were told due commercial viability when a new aircraft arrives it will be crewed by the outside crew, those same people would be saying it is unfair.

Think how you would feel if you were bypassed?

It is time Captains support there FO we have supported you many times.

[Bedouin]

None of us know the so called bassines model if you don’t have one you can’t show it but I do not blame Hogan airline industry is very fluid who would have thought oil prices would go so high. But facts stand two destination and 3 aircraft gone indictors would show an Airline struggling. I agree we don’t have the backing of governments anymore and have to have a commercially viable airline but when you have unfair government support from the competition pride of the nation comes first. I have seen to many people who are fair and honest be screwed by the ones who are corrupted.

It is amazing that Gulf Air wants a level playing field when it comes to competition and I couldn’t agree more, but places restriction on its employees by not issuing of a NOC even when you have completed many contract periods.

Those wishing to stay or those who want to leave the supply and demand principle apply, for many years Airlines have been reducing wages for staff, not CEO though, because we were so many. Now the tide has turned and it is time wages do improve but now airlines scream we have to restrict labour.

Competition, fair competition is all I ask for but for all including employees.

If Gulf Air wants to retain staff just show a career path and I am sure more would stay.

Now the so called Professional Pilots will show there wisdom here as many do and again I will be disgusted by the people who were given opportunities to progress and say how great and fair the world is because it has not affected them.

Start standing up for your fellow pilot and stop bringing the name of pilots down.

[airwaya457]

Very well put, Bedouin, some others should take a leaf out of your book instead of waffling on and on with the same propaganda piffle!

I’m not so sure that we are struggling, GF has always made money, It’s just stopping individuals indulging that’s always been the problem. At the moment I believe there is a conflict of interests, if you own one third of a company you can in effect have some influence on how it conducts business, which in this case could be which routes, enough said! This all happened before with an operator down the road. It must be very hard if not impossible to have a business model under complicated circumstances like this, I am sure any CEO would not want to be in a situation like this!

I do think that things have changed for the better and because of the shortage of qualified and competent Captains, you will find that the powers to be have figured out that many of the First Officers are more than qualified to be upgraded to Captains and of course this will bring a little roster stability when the new upgrades are bonded.

You are correct in saying that GF is now screaming unfair competition, and of course we all agree it should be an even playing field! But apparently that does not apply to the employees, all should be fair in business GF would say as long as we make the rules. No NOC for you buckwheat because then it might be a level playing field! Me thinks it’s a LOB!


:ok: