North East and South East... How easy is it at the weekend?

[Fancy Navigator]

Hello,
I am planning a trip crossing the Durham Tees Valley CTR (via the overhead), the Vale of York AIAA, the Lincoln AIAA to go down to Southend....
Any advice on restrictions, services by controllers, etc? Is it easy to cross these zones or do ATC make it diificult? I suppose the AIAA's are inactive at the weekend, but would like to hear from local people used to flying there at the weekend.....
Also, what is Southend like?
Thank you for your answers.
FNav ;)

[Speedtape]

No problem really, just stay away from the stansted zone. ATC not very keen on letting you go anywhere close to the edge of the zone there.

[barry lloyd]

What is Southend like?
Well you know how some southerners (mostly those who've never been there), take the p*ss out of Balckpool? Well Southend is exactly the same, except their personality has been removed.

[AlexL]

can't comment on all the oop north stuff but like the others said, stay away from Stansted (miserable buggers!).
Southend (the airfield) is fine, good, helpful ATC, easy to spot from the air (the pier and the river roach both point at the airfield) and loads of rivers, coast line and other easy visual refs. Southend Radar / Approach on 130.77 is very usefull, even from a long way out, as a lot of local flying occurs on that frequency.
As for Sarfend ( the town, or Taaan as the locals say!), well its like blackpool with essex girls!

Local flying is pretty good. On a clear day a flight up the thames to the QE2 bridge gives a pretty good view of the city, although you'll need to turn smartish after the bridge to avoid city airport's airspace.

[Droopystop]

It's a while since I flew in that part of the world, but it should be no problem. In my experience Newcastle and Teesside (or whatever they are called now) are very helpful, I think the AIAA would be cold at the weekend, but check the AIP. Unfortunately most of the excellent Mil LARS units are cold at the weekend so IMHO it is easier during the week than at weekends. Once again check before you go, but I have happy memories of trundling up and down that part of the world being handed over from LARS to LARS having passed my message only the once. It might well be worth avoiding Stanstead altogether an enjoy a scenic route via the coast.

[Charlie32]

You can usually obtain a good service RIS/FIS from Waddinton Zone, Humberside, Teeside, and Newcastle. Very rare for zone transits to be denied, but will usually need a mode C if IFR transit required.

Need to check notams carefully, as there are numerous military fields, some of which have gliding and airshow activties at weekend.

Hope you have good trip up North

[bar shaker]

WR

My understanding of AIAA is the same as yours. You can transit non radio, if you wish, but staying above 2,000ft is recommended.

As for Stansted transits, it really depends on the workload they have at the time. You can always go under the class D between Luton and Stansted. Just follow the A10, observing the drop to 1500ft at Stansted's SW end. From there you will see Hanningfield and are nearly at Southend.

South of Stansted can get quite busy, so call Southend up early and get a service. If they aren't snowed under, they will help with possible conflicts.

Hope the weather is good for your trip.

[helicopter-redeye]

The Lincs AIAA and Vale of York AIAA are my local area. Certainly at weekends, no problem with transit whatsoever.

Durham TV are quite helpful (Class D) so should allow you transit N to S. Newcastle Approach will normally give a handover.

South of Durham TV, Leeming are usually closed (so no FIS/ RIS); ditto Linton. Leeds Approach gives the best service for the first part South of the Durham zone, then freecall Humberside for the service.

The Vale of York is often quite busy with gliders (on a nice day).

Where you go next depands on if you are E or W of the Lincs bases (Wadders/ Cranwell).

Waddington will provide a good zone service during op hours (see NOTAM). Note Cranwell is usually active at weekends and Waddington is always active with AWACS so you need to be talking to them in the AIAA, especially close in to the fields.

Waddington will provide the service over towards Wittering (Cottesmore closed at wekends). Thereafter freecall Cambridge before going to Standsted.

As noted, they will provide a service (Essex radar) but becareful to keep clear on controlled airspace. They are still busy at weekends thanks to Ryanair et al.

Good flight.

h-r

NB, sorry for the spelling errors, typed in a hurry at the end of the day.

:=

[stillin1]

Concur with points made already.
AIAA is quiet and very not intense at the weekend cos nearly all the boys and girls have gone home for the weekend. WR you are correct.
NCL and DTV are very helpful.
LARS is also helpful and available from all the agencies shown in the planning books.
Avoid / talk to the Mil guys (ATC) ref the MATZs and you should have a hoot!
Down south - wierd lot, I second the avoid Stanstead theory as they are v busy, so why up both your and their workload and heart-rate if you don't need to! :ok:

[Andy_R]

It's StanstEd :rolleyes:

Their zone is easy to avoid, but as has been stressed do make sure you do avoid it.

[Fancy Navigator]

Thank you for your replies :D
FNav :)

[helicopter-redeye]

It's StanstEd


Loike I zaid, sarry fur the poity spelings.

As Karl Marx once said, "Bad spellers of the world, untie"


:E

[WorkingHard]

It is very clear that an awful lot of people have a very poor view of Stansted. perhaps we should start a new thread to highlight the problems (real or perceived) and then get the appropriate authority to listen. Any suggestions anyone, especially the ATC professionals?

As for the trip south, if using beacons just route down through GAM to Fenland then keep east of Stansted and call Southend.

[Droopystop]

WH,

I don't think people are specifically anti Stansted or the ATC there, it is just that getting zones transits are particularly difficult and that can be frustrating. I am sure that the same views are held about Luton, Manchester, Gatwick, Glasgow etc. These airports have seen a huge increase in heavy metal traffic over the last 10 years or so and maybe out grown their class D airspace. ATC have to maintain IFR seperation for departures and most arrivals (since most traffic will be on an IFR flight plan) so accommodating GA traffic transits cannot always be easy. The fact that there are so many recommendations to avoid Stansted is simply a reflection of the density of GA traffic in that area. If you are flying for fun (and therefore having to pay for it) these places are best avoided, if nothing else just to make your own flight easier.

With continued increased usage by commercial traffic and the continual issue of airspace infringements, there must come a time when these airports will try to claim Class A airspace. Perhaps a general GA policy of avoiding these places unless necessary would delay this.

[BeauMan]

One nice easy way to avoid Stansted is to set 310 on CLN as you hand off from Cottesmore; come onto 130 to, and that'll track you down past Lakenheath CMATZ (friendly and helpful, but sometimes the accents are tricky), past Cambridge (usually good for a FIS), and then when you see the Sudbury masts go straight south.

Southend? Great big huge runway, nice folks, but if you're going to the seaside be prepared to laugh at all the Chav's on the prom in their tarted up H reg Clios. :ok:

[helicopter-redeye]

I'm not sure that being Class A rather than D will make a difference in terms of airspace infringements (Heathrow still gets a few). Airspace class is to do with speed control, separation, minima, etc.

I've always found Stansted to be very helpful (returning to the original purpose of the question) if the second call includes the information "remaining outside or below controlled airspace". This normally elicits a thank you from Essex Radar. I guess if I was that busy and stressed at work, I'd be grateful too..

h-r

[WorkingHard]

I understand what is being said about Stansted and CAS in general. I have to stress that in MOST cases the ATC in the UK is second to none and I have no particular problems anywhere. That said what does become more evident is that the denial of access to CAS appears to be more of a problem of controller workload than a/c separation limits. If that is so (remember I said IF) then the number of controllers needs to be addressed. I raised this on another thread and quite properly had a response or two that said we don't have enough controllers. If the lack of controllers is denying access to legitimate airspace users then surely some authority must be able to say the terms of the airspace classification is being breached and appropriate action taken. I don't have answers folks just questions. Am I being naieve in thinking just so long as CAT is not affected nothing will be done?

[High Wing Drifter]

The problem with weekends is that the Mil LARS operations are mostly shut and the sky is full of hungry £100 hamburger hunters. You may have to scrabble around the airwaves to get a decent FIS and even then many will be local non-radar. I find East Mids, Luton and Stanstead are always obliging for a decent FIS. These days, Brize seems more likely to tell me talk to London unless I am transiting. Have yet to christen my Northern chart though.

[helicopter-redeye]

Go North Young Man for East Mids, Waddington, Blackpool, Humberside, Leeds, Teeside, N'Castle and Carlise.

If in the central zone (Skipton to Appleby) you will end up with London Info as radio coverage is poor (for helicopters at low level anyway).

[Droopystop]

And head even further north and you'd wonder why you bothered trying to get a FIS at all - most of the time no one can hear you. Bliss.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Before talking about a 'decent FIS', perhaps it's worth understanding just what a FIS amounts to...? There's still a Safety Sense leaflet about types of service...

SSL about ATSOCA (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_SSL08.PDF)

On the topic of Southend, the charges are astronomical - a couple of approaches and a couple of circuits, plus one landing and twenty minutes parking, cost knocking on for £100 a couple of weeks ago (PA-34). Value for money???

[High Wing Drifter]

Before talking about a 'decent FIS', perhaps it's worth understanding just what a FIS amounts to...? There's still a Safety Sense leaflet about types of service...
Aha! Obtain a FIS from the likes of Farnborough and see how it compares to the 'same' service from London Information. That's what I mean by a "decent FIS"...one that comes with a squawk. The contractual obligation is no different from the official definition of a FIS so I assume this is why ATC prefer FIS to RIS.

[Droopystop]

I think you might be ill advised to condsider a FIS with squawk as being any better than a usual FIS. Just because they have a squawk from you doesn't mean ATC are doing anything more than checking that you are doing what you said you would be doing. After all a FIS only means you get weather, nav aid info and info on known local traffic. Having said that most controllers seem to give a little more if workload allows.

So back to the original thread, unless you are doing zone transits, how many people should you talk to? In theory you only need to talk to departure and destination airfields, although it would be wise to get a FIS from London en route. Would make the RT much simpler and encourage a decent lookout. On the other hand with so many regional airfields taking procedural IFR traffic, maybe we should be talking to everyone. It is interesting to fly with some ex mil pilots and see how little they use the radio.

[ThePirateKing]

HWD,

I don't have a bad word to say about Farnborough, but sometimes I do get a bit of a shock when they've given me a squawk (and one would therefore typically presume they're watching me blip across some screen somewhere) and they don't call me with traffic which I would really prefer to know about (EGLK<->CPT between 2000 and 2500 being a prime example).

I'm not complaining at all, they really are the most friendly and helpful bunch you could ask for! But it's caveat emptor out there - it doesn't matter how they dress it up (with a squawk), you're still only buying a best-endeavours FIS.

Rgds,

TPK:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

You can tell I'm bored at work today :O

But it's caveat emptor out there
Absolutely PK. I wouldn't, nee, couldn't disagree. I'm feeling a little guilty branching the discussion. Just to say if anybody hasn't visited somewhere like Farnborough...do! Upon viewing their screens I was dumb-struck by how much traffic there is compared to how little I actually see.

:ok: