Barton Happening.................

[Sir George Cayley]

Or not happenings, as the case may be.

Just that March 2005 sees the expiration of the airfield lease that LAC has with Peel Holdings /Manchester Ship Canal Co. The Aero Club has leased the land continuously since shortly after the Second World war, originally from Manchester City Council and latterly Peel.

In days gone by the new lease was sown up well in advance of the deadline. Manchester City Estates and Valuation Office administered it in typical town hall style so things proceeded at a dignified pace but always with the same out come. Each lease was 14 years long but hampered by a short redevelopment break clause that blighted investment.

The club newsletters have recently painted an optimistic picture of the future suggesting Peel would be happy for the club to continue running the show but on Peels behalf.

This hasn’t stopped a number of aircraft departing and others being put up for sale.

Rumours are now starting to circulate that things may be going wrong. I sincerely hope not. But the absence of any announcement of agreement on new terms for a lease are bound to be unsettling.

Does anyone have the inside track on this? Shaggy, Poet P, Cooperman, anyone?

Sir George Cayley

[helicopter-redeye]

Yeah, well, just look at Sheffield. Same owners. Random changes to terms. Prices up 31% overnight. Would look nicer with offices built on it.

:{

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Sorry Sir George, I can't throw any light on this. For those not familiar with our region, it's worth pointing out that if Barton did go, there would be NO airfield for GA between Sleap to the south, Liverpool to the West, and Blackpool to the north. Greater Manchester, probably the second largest UK connurbation after London, together with a large part of Cheshire and Lancashire, would have no GA facilities at all.

That's a sad reflection on the value this country puts on GA.

SSD

[niknak]

Peel Holdings is a successful property company who've invested millions to make millions, and profit margin is always their bottom line.
I've no idea what price they're asking for the lease at Barton, but it would be unrealistic to expect them to let it go for less than the market rate.
This has been on the cards for a number of years, and the directors at Barton Aero Club have always known that unless they actually bought the land themselves, they'd always have a landlord breathing down their necks.

I can only assume that when the opportunity arose to purchase the aerodrome, for whatever reason, said directors decided it would be cheaper to carry on leasing (or maybe they stuck their head in the sand?), rather than put an investment package together and buy it outright.

Anyway, that's water under the bridge, and I agree that what remains is a very sad, confusing and sorry mess.

Perhaps now would be a good time for British Aeropace to be a little bit more proactive with G.A. at Woodford.

[cessna l plate]

SSD, don't add LPL into that equation, they are getting busier by the day, and it is only a matter of time that it goes the same way as at MAN, being that GA happens, and is just tolerated, but only for a lucky few. Hard trying to get circuits these days, I've even heard of guys at Liverpool, falling out of bed at 6am at a weekend, calling ATC to book circuits and then going back to bed.
Circuits at MAN are a none starter, and sadly we are heading the same wayat Liverpool. (Another Peel Entity you will note)

Sadly GA is well and truly under fire in the UK, especially in the north of England, one only needs to read the adverts in Pilot every month for schools, and they are all down south. Should the inevitable happen, I don't know where I will go to learn, as Sleap is nearly a 2 hour drive away from where I live, the sad fact is that I will probobly give it up alltogether.

I've said it before, and I will say it again, this is a short sighted view from airport operators who are only interested in the bottom line, and fail to see that without GA, and flying schools in all its guises, there wouldn't be commercial pilots. I imagine that nearly all airline pilots have at least a few hours in a 172 somewhere in the log books, and yet unless you have a couple of jets attatched to your plane, they don't want to know you.

Now Barton has been around for a very long time, and long may it continue to do so, but for the pessemists amongst us, just ask yourselves the question, who owns Barton, Which huge shopping complex is over the road, and who owns that??? I truly hope not, and short term maybe nothing will happen, but long term, who knows??? I for one fancy being involved in GA for a lot longer than any lease they may let Barton have.

As there is so little, and what we have is fading fast, we need to stand up and be counted, write to MP's (there is an election due!!) Lets protest, and lets make a difference.

On a final thought from the rant, what are the chances of Stretton being re-opened. Right in the middle of the motorway network and the Manchester Low Level Route, what better location for GA could you think of??

[barry lloyd]

I fear that Barton is much too close to the national motorway network to be ignored as building land by Messrs Peel. After all, they need big incomes to fuel their ambitions, and with the good road connections, they must be tempted, and there is no doubt that (sadly for the GA operators), it would fetch considerable amounts of money.
Consider Peel's recent bid for the Mersey Docks, and their need to finance this - or guarantee the money that will need to be replaced/used as collateral.
With regard to Woodford, IMHO it will not remain as an airfield for too much longer. Consider what has happened to Chadderton, and what is currently happening at Woodford (i.e. not a lot). South Manchester - prime building land - BAE Systems not in the civil aircraft manufacturing business any more...
As I said in another thread recently, whether we like it or not, the world (or at least the UK), is ruled by beancounters these days, and that, at the end of the day, is what Peel Holdings is all about. Philanthropy is rapidly disappearing from all corners of this green and pleasant land.
I thought the old Stretton airfield was divided into distribution areas, bus interchanges, lorry parks etc. Is there any space left for landing GA aircraft?
What about Hawarden? That is grossly underused - the odd Beluga, and few 125s for maintenance, and that's about it!

[helicopter-redeye]

I'm not certain how profitable the airports division of PH is (I recall the whole Group pasted reduced profits last year).

With so much emphasis being placed on (a) profit and (b) Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield International because of it's long runway, one can envisage Sheffield City and Barton being squeezed out unless users are willing to pay the arrogant and unrealistic prices demanded.

The of course, you have the land and the rest is predictable.

The real question will be if they can attract big commercial volumes into RHDSI and JLL airports to make these pay.

Who's expanding at present (not many).

Who's expanding the most (low cost carriers).

Do low cost carriers pay penal landing and handling charges (not in their business model).

So running airports is not such good business for new start ups.

The best place for GA is in the old military fields from the expansion period, where they still have enough runway left from agriculture. The facilities may not be swish but at least they get lots of movements to pay the finance charges on the land.

This could leave GA a rural sport (to replace foxhunting etc perhaps ??)

h-r


:{

[Established Localiser]

It will be a disgrace if anything happens to Barton !

Peel are just too big to fight , the worst thing is that rumours stick ! and anyone wanting a share like myself start to think about future consequences !

I for one don't fancy driving 50 or 60 miles to Blackpool or Harwarden to shoot off for a bimble, if i have to I will, although it will be a great shame .

Just hope it all ends well , with a decent lease ! allowing us all in the North West to carry on enjoying our hobby at a lovely little airfield.

maybe there will be some news here : http://www.bartonaerodrome.co.uk/about_future.asp

EL

:(

[cessna l plate]

Obviously eveyone is looking at any available airfield to further GA, my suggestion of Stretton was for an airfield that is currently not in use that we as a GA community could gather together to make use of again. Hawarden is nice, but the approach is iffy, and if they have airbus traffic, they don't want to know you anyway.

Maybe we should all start a campaign for GA, pick an airfield (North of Watford, no offence) and set about it. What do you all think?

[Established Localiser]

Stretton does still take the odd aircraft if i'm not mistaken !

It would be perfect although I would much rather hang on to Barton.

However if negotiations with the lease don't go well , or Peel start strong arm tactics I think we should definately take a stance .

No Surrender !!!
:mad:

EL
;)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Stretton would be nice (I flew a couple of practice approaches yesterday in the Citabria to Stretton, 'cause it makes an excellent practice engine fail location).

Unfortunatly, it's owned by Shell (I think). There is no incentive I know of for them to sell it, unless someone makes them an offer they can't refuse.

SSD

[2Donkeys]

To the outside observer, it seems that defeat is declared at Barton every few months. Is this occasion any more *real*, than any of the other occasions that pop up in response to a Pprune search?

Has anybody attempted to engage Peel in dialogue?

2D

[Dog's Bone]

As those who already know the situation, MSDC/Peel have clearly stated that LAC will not be granted a lease. This remains so. The figures being shuffled around to allow LAC to run the airfield on Peel's behalf are not stacking up. Maybe this can be resolved in the next couple of weeks. There remains a substantial shortfall to be made up from somewhere if LAC are to go down that route. LAC Flying School have been told to quit the Tower block.

NikNak -
You are way off track re the likely 'sale/purchase' of Barton. It was NEVER for sale and the club could therefore only exist as a tenant. It was not sold by the Manchester City Council, 51% was transferred to Peel within the MSDC. It was NEVER on the open market, it was all under the table stuff without public knowledge or involvement. In other words outsiders were not in a position to bid more that the reputed £1M Peel are said to have *paid*.

At this point in time Peel have stated that Barton will continue as an airfield after 25th March 2005 when the current LAC lease runs out, but under Peel control. How long it remains an airfield is crystal ball gazing. Probably not even Peel know that answer, as it all hinges on what is going on around the airfield and what time scale is involved with their other projects which will impact on Barton one way or another both in the short and very long term.

Barton is most certainly of immense importance to general aviation in the area. At the moment it is a little green patch in the centre of a Peel master plan. Just across the adjacent Manchester Ship Canal, to the south east, there is the huge (Peel) Trafford Centre out of town shopping complex. To
the north of the airfield the (Peel) 'Salford Forest' horse racecourse is in the planning approval stage. To the west the M62 motorway restricts development as do the HT pylon wires. Near the Barton M60 high level ship canal bridge on the approach to 32, a new rugby stadium complex now has planning approval. The Ship Canal itself has a major (Peel) scheme in the planning approval stages to the south west aimed at bringing container ships back up the ship canal as they used to many years ago. To accommodate this development new rail and road infrastructure will have to be put in place along with warehousing, marshalling yards etc. One plan shows a new rail line cutting across runway 32 boundaries. So if all or any of this becomes real in the next 5-10-20 years, then flying activities at Barton will be affected.

For the amount of money Peel and the Manchester City Council get out of Barton, both now and in the past, it is peanuts to them. It has been suggested that it has so far cost Peel £7M in fees, planning designs, environmental impact assessments, highways agency work etc. etc. on their many projects, some of which are outlined above - and so far they have little to show, indeed the council approved Salford Reds rugby stadium was another developer's plan and not the Peel application - so no return on Peel's large expenditure on that one. Apparently Peel are so narked at loosing out to the other stadium developer that they have offered huge sums to them, to halt development. The site is now ear marked for the MGM gambling casino should the first choice of location on the other side of the city be rejected.

Barton will still be around as an airfield. How the LAC restructures itself in the short time remaining before the termination of the lease in March is the big and as yet unanswered question.

As to Woodford, BAE got their fingers burnt last time they went down the GA route, by allowing Aviation Manchester Limited to set up and use the facilities. This failed miserably and ended with BAE allegedly kicking AML out after they failed to pay two years rent. For the peanuts they would get out of any GA involvement is it worth it?

Stretton may appear ideal, but this has been researched and is not viable given the terms on offer. Mr Barry Lloyd - suggest you get in an aeroplane and fly over the place! The runway was tarmaced a few years ago. Hawarden has more activity than you give credit for, problem there is you are restricted to BAE operating hours.

As to suggestions on joining together and writing to MPs etc. etc. Are you stupid? You are dealing with Manchester City Council and Peel. They may be seperate, but to all intents and purposes they are one and the same. They are working to their own (land development) agenda - aviation activities are irrelevant! The Ratepayers of Manchester have been subsidizing GA flying at Barton for decades! Now it's time to cross your fingers and hope for a happy ending.

[barry lloyd]

Dog's Bone

Re Stretton - I did add the caveat that I wasn't sure how much of it was available for GA use. I will do as you say, and check the place out for myself. If it's that well equipped, (hangars clubhouse?), why haven't GA operators moved there already?

Re Hawarden - It is actually (officially) operated by Airbus. I used to work at Hawarden, for BAe Corporate Jets (until the mighty Raytheon made most of us redundant), and even in those days a movement was an event. I've been there many times since, and there still seems to be very little activity compared with Barton, but when did movements mean anything to a beancounter?
Appreciate your comments re BAE/Airbus, but these are worth discussing, and could be overcome if those concerned are willing to pay. ATC people don't put themselves out - we all know they are paid whether they handle one movement or a hundred. I am old enough to remember when we flew Viscounts into Hawarden (CEG) on the way to London, and they had to get up early to deal with them. Of course they weren't happy, but then they're not paid for being happy!
To be fair, when I worked for BAe Corporate Jets I always found ATC willing to stay open if necessary, not just for us, but for any flights which were due. Consultation and discussion can solve a lot of problems.
I'm with you, I'm just trying to be realistic!
Re your last paragraph - agree entirely - sad to say. You can be sure that Manchester's city councillors will have spent a few 'useful hours' talking to the people at Peel. The future is not in your hands.

[BroomstickPilot]

I learned to fly at Barton nearly 45 years ago (on Auster J1s with the legendary Taffy Davies and Charlie Rollo), so I should be terribly sorry to see Barton dissappear and even more sorry to see LAC go to the wall.

For almost all of the succeeding years I have lived in the South, so I am not au fait with the present situation up North. So please forgive me if what I say is something that has been well and truly thrashed out before.

Back in those days there was a small group/club with an Aircoupe that seemed to have obtained permission to share RAF Woodvale with Liverpool and Manchester University Air Squadrons. I seem to remember they had a small building/hangar on the far side of the aerodrome from the air force buildings. In those days apparently Woodvale was operated for the Air Force by Airwork Ltd.

In these days when our government expects to run the armed services on a shoestring, and the RAF is getting smaller and smaller, perhaps the MOD might be interested to earn a few extra pennies by leasing out facilities on the far side of Woodvale aerodrome.

[cessna l plate]

There is still GA at Woodvale, however, it is private, no training allowed. Furthermore, we are talking about GA in the Manchester area here, and although I fly from Liverpool, the road links mean only another 20 minutes further on from Barton, in relation to where I live. Woodvale, however is nearly a 2 hour drive for me, as is Sleap, and this would be the same for most guys in this area.

This is starting to get silly, how many GA fields are there in the Manchester conurbation area, compared to down south?

Although not a fan of Barton, (Don't like the idea of grass on a wet day) I would not want to see it go. My thoughts being, go for a day out, and on return find Liverpool closed for whatever reason. Where can I go??

Sleap is that far out, my freinds in a car will never find me. Blackpool is over an hour away, if they let you in without damaging your wallet of course (See the latest Flyer Mag) or Barton.

Barton wins every time, not too far from Home, everyone knows here it is etc etc.

The mighty Peel cannot be allowed to carry on as they have been doing. Why don't they, and here's a novel idea, develop the site into a small sized regional airport. Tarmac runways, terminals that sort of thing. Only a 5 minute ride into the city, on top of the motorway network. The business flyers will love it. Or am I being silly????

[helicopter-redeye]

Taking into account the whole Peel Aviation empire across the North, L'pool, Barton, Sheffield, RH-Donc-Shefd-Int this needs AOPA support else it will just be a talking shop.

Barton and Sheffield are the two main GA sites (ie no commercial traffic to push prices up). Without them there is a big gap (esp in the West).

Martin Robinson @ AOPA, what do you think? Or are you on the case already ...


:ok:

[Dog's Bone]

BL
{{ Re Stretton - I did add the caveat that I wasn't sure how much of it was available for GA use. I will do as you say, and check the place out for myself. If it's that well equipped, (hangars clubhouse?), why haven't GA operators moved there already?}}

Although the motorway cut the former airfield in two, the south part still exists and does not have any new build on it. It has been owned by Shell for probably 40 years, they use it for fuel testing and can have cars driving around non-stop 24 hours per day. They do not want anything to interfere with their schedule. The place is not for sale, there are no hangars or clubhouse as you queried. It is totally private property. Various people have made approaches to Shell over the years, and the answer has always been the same. The terms on offer would not make any aviation involvement financially viable.

I too have always found the staff at HAW to be friendly and accommodating, but for the subject topic of this thread, Hawarden is not near Manchester. ATC anywhere will always stay open if you pay. This was one of the problems at Woodford. AML would agree to pay the extra to keep the place open outside BAE hours, but there comes a point where an evening's training movements would not cover the additional expenditure. That equation would equally apply to HAW and any other airfield. I appreciate what you are saying, but in my long experience it just won't work. If I was Airbus I would not want anything to interfere with the wing production schedule which is bringing in more money and accounting for more jobs than a hundred movements of GA aircraft ever could.

As to Woodvale. Nice airfield, miles from anywhere. How long it lasts is again in the mists of crystal ball gazing. Shutting it down has been on the cards for many years and it is surprising that with the MoD cut backs it is still around. It would make a nice new housing estate for some builder. Anyway, it is nowhere near Manchester and difficult to drive to once you are off the motorway system.

Cessna 1 Plate
{{The mighty Peel cannot be allowed to carry on as they have been doing. Why don't they, and here's a novel idea, develop the site into a small sized regional airport. Tarmac runways, terminals that sort of thing. Only a 5 minute ride into the city, on top of the motorway network. The business flyers will love it. Or am I being silly????}}

No you are not being silly. It is just that this has been talked to death for the past 30+ years, so is hardly 'novel'.

helicopter-redeye
don't want to appear picky, but you have omitted Durham Tees Valley, or whatever they call Tees Side, from the Peel List. Note that in all these cases Peel have acquired the sites for the potential brownfield development areas which lie within the respective airfield boundaries. That's where the money is.

{{Taking into account the whole Peel Aviation empire across the North, L'pool, Barton, Sheffield, RH-Donc-Shefd-Int this needs AOPA support else it will just be a talking shop.}}

AOPA? Now that is silly. AOPA are really out of their depth as they found out with a similar situation when Manchester Airport tried (and mostly succeeded) in kicking GA out of Manchester Airport when the Second Runway was at the planning stages. AOPA were left scurrying off with their tail between their legs, with a parting shot of "we have deeper pockets than AOPA and we will see you bankrupt" (or words to that effect). Never came back and the local GA community were left to sort themselves out. That organisation lost a lot of members in the NW.

At least if Sheffield eventually goes you can run to Netherthorpe, DSA, maybe Gamston. What have the Barton boys and girls got? Blackpool, Huddersfield, Chester, Liverpool, Sleap. All miles away from the local Greater Manchester GA community.

But, and it is a big BUT, Barton should be around certainly in 5 years, maybe 10. The planning and project games don't come to fruition overnight. The level of flying activity will now hinge around how much an individual can afford. As it is, those taking to the 3-axis microlight route are growing month by month, with farm strips opening up all over the place. Perhaps this is the way to go if all you want is cheap pleasure flying. Light aviation in the UK as we knew it 20 years ago is effectively dead thanks to the likes of compulsory handling agents, high landing/handling fees, astronomical maintenance bills, CAA/JAA/EASA fees and regulations.

Maybe, just MAYBE, Peel will develop Barton into an upgraded permanent GA facility, something it has long cried out for, but without a long term lease no one could obtain the grants which were/are on offer to development the airfield. Now under new ownership Peel could apply for EEC grant funding. The airfield has been surveyed and plans drawn up which would include a hard runway. It is one thing to put these ideas on a CAD, it is yet another to put any part of that plan into action. So who knows what the end game will be? As has already been said, not even Peel know the answer. Barton is just one piece in the jigsaw of surrounding developments.

[helicopter-redeye]

So Dogs Bone. Two long posts and no solution proposed (apart from do nowt) so far.

What is your concise proposal?

[cessna l plate]

I have to agree, this is one for AOPA to poke away at.
Peel might be bigger and richer than AOPA, but in reference to Manchester, were talking about a major international Airport here, who are always going to get their way!.

With Barton, we are talking grass strip, with not much space to start dropping 3 mile runways into, henceforth, this is a potential problem for AOPA to sort out, so come on, lets get them on it.
How many pilots will find themselves with nowhere to go if Barton closes??

The answer from other posters appears to be "go west young man"

Don't get me wrong, Liverpool could do with more students and PPL's, but the ramp is nearly full of club and shared aircraft, and the main apron seems to creep a little closer every year. Sad to say, but the writing may not be on the wall for Liverpool, but the spray cans are being shaken allright.

And as said before, Woodvale, now there is the middle of nowhere.
OK if you live on the north of Liverpool, or Southport, something of a pain in the rectum area if you live in Manchester. I went to a safety evening there last year, show ends about half ten, gone midnight when I got home, imagine a journey like that on a Sunday morning in the summer with all the day trippers heading for Suthport?

Sleap, too bloody far in total.

Sheffield, Peel again!

The other fields mentioned are great, but not near to Manchester. The next nearest GA field to Barton is Liverpool, another 20-30 minutes by road. Or Blackpool, just touching the hour. I know I drive to Liverpool for my flying, and that is my choice, but we live in a demoracy, we should have the right to fly from where we please, within reason of course!

If Barton cannot survive, lets as a community, look at alternatives. If Stretton is a none starter thanks to Shell, then do we have any freinds of GA on the outskirts of Manchester willing to donate, or change the use of a field, build a couple of hangars and a clubhouse etc, and create a new GA field in this area??
Just a thought. Discuss.............

[Dog's Bone]

helicopter-redeye

My postings have served merely to answer people's questions and suggestions. With respect to many who have posted, they seem to be fresh out of school, new kids on the block, meaning they have no idea what has taken place in the past to get to the current situation. Everything so far suggested has been research and looked into many times over many decades by people who have been around a lot longer than you and were prepared to put their own money into securing Barton's future, only to run up against one political brick wall after another.

Until the final outcome of current discussions taking place between LAC and Peel are known and placed before the membership in the next month or two, then there is little more to be said. Aviation activities will continue at Barton in the immediate future, long term is crystal ball gazing.

This doesn't preclude anyone looking for alternatives of course and that includes farm strips. If you wish to enlarge said farm strips to training standard (i.e. licensed) as Cessna 1 Plate wants, then you need to talk to the appropriate planning authorities who are never too keen - again people have been there, done that, but weren't given any tee shirts. Nothing to stop you trying. Good luck!

[baldwinm]

How about Samlesbury, near Preston?

Good motorway links, owned by BAe I think. There seem to be a few motorgliders that use it at weekends (air experience flights?)

[Sir George Cayley]

Thanks for the resume of the current position. You have captured the issues well and added to the sum of my knowledge.

The frustrating thing is that there apears to be little the local flying community can do.

I know there are a lot of pilots looking for farmers fields and thinking of STOL tpe aircraft. Should Barton become non-viable as a GA field catering for the middle ground of recreational flying then fragmentation seems the likely outcome.

Very sad as its unique atmosphere would be lost. (I think its already damaged)

Ah well stamp collecting and embroidery have their attractions...


Sir George Cayley

[Shaft109]

The old airfield at Burscough (near Ormskirk) is being developed around the edges but the airfield is still largely intact but needs a major clean up to accept aircraft but it may already be too late,

And Samlesbury is owned by BAe Systems but the RAF volunteer gliding school effectively "squats" there and does any maintainance itself through the RAF.

New building work for the JSF and Typhoon means that the days of this airfield are numbered too. Its already separated from the main site by a new perimeter fence across the airfield.

[Dog's Bone]

Despite it being D-Day, it seems that it is not all sweetness and goodwill in the LAC boardroom. The arrogance of the Chairman has come to the fore yet again and he has ousted the company secretary and alienated other committee members. All this has taken place without the membership having a say in how their money is accounted for, no doubt this will make for an interesting AGM in April, but it's too late by then.

A two year airfield management agreement has been signed today between MSDC/Peel and the new operating company Barton Aerodrome Operations Ltd.

You really have to hand it to Peel the way they have manipulated the situation.

[Rod1]

I am about to get a share in an aircraft based at Barton. I am not yet a member and I have only a passing understanding of what has been going on. Who are MSDC and will all based aircraft owners still have to join the club?

[Dog's Bone]

Rod1

MSDC is Manchester Shipcanal Development Company.

You have asked some interesting questions the answers to which will be learnt in the coming weeks. So the following is presented to you as a guide only, as the goal posts are moving all the time.

One figure for LAC membership currently doing the rounds suggests fees to be set at £250 per year, which will include a landing contract for unlimited landings. Everyone agrees that this is a good deal as it is not much more than is presently being paid. The LAC member will not notice much difference,
where it will hit the wallet is the increase in hangarage/parking. LAC income will be hit as the landing contract element will be passed to MSDC/Peel and not pocketed by LAC, so a drop in revenue income there. The annual membership fee has always cross subsidized the loss making flying school and to a certain extent propped up engineering.

LAC (seperate from the new management company) has taken out a two year lease on all hangars and the clubhouse. Hangarage rent in the main hangar is expected to be almost doubled and to be in the region of £2800-£3000 per year. If you are acquiring a share in a hangared aircraft then you will have to join LAC to use their hangars.

Outside parking fees are presently £50 p/m for a C172. This could well be doubled. This will be paid to MSDC/Peel via the airfield management company. Those wishing to park outside are not required to join LAC and will pay landing fees as they occur or presumably will be able to negotiate a contract.

Ask yourself if you need the facilities of a clubhouse and how many landings you might make, at a price not yet known, the assumption being that £125 of the £250 will be the landing contract, maybe the LAC membership route could be the best option. Alternatively maybe a social membership for clubhouse use might be worth considering. As I say the membership has been kept in the dark and none of the above is set in concrete, but that is the best anyone knows at this point in time. All will be revealed shortly as the present LAC lease terminates in 3 weeks. If possible I would advise you to wait until the end of the month when the new annual LAC subscriptions will be announced. Sorry I can't help further.

[Dog's Bone]

Lead by example

LAC Membership has been announced as £240 with unlimited landings including use of the clubhouse and the car park, the latter to become a pay & display wheel clamping area in due course when security fencing is erected together with airside access gates. So generally a good deal for flying members, as previously reported.

The real surprise is Student membership which has been set at a reduced fee of £180 but the student will now have to pay for each landing and circuit. Seems a backward step if you want to encourage people to fly from Barton, when it is already cheaper to fly from Liverpool.

Hangarage is increasing by 50% no vat. Outside parking has, as rumoured, been increased 100% + vat.

The LAC flying school will now be paying rent and outside parking. Flying school aircraft were always hangared free. Similarly those aircraft leased in and deemed to be on the school fleet previously enjoyed free hangarage/parking. Those owners will now have to put their hands in their pockets or sort something out in the leasing rates agreed with the school. Either way flying school rates may have to be increased, even though the Chairman has stated they will not be.

It now remains to be seen if members and students vote with their feet. Aircraft have left already, and others will be departing now the new rates are known. Will there be any to take their place? If there were, they would already be here.

The chairman's master plan is leaking like a sieve. Many members want to know why he did not have the courtesy to consult the membership before hastily signing agreements with MSCD/Peel.

As to leading by example, rumours circulating suggest that the chairman's grouped Cessna 172 could be moving to Liverpool where rates are reported to be cheaper. The new company secretary has already moved his aircraft to Ashcroft.

[picky]

Don't think I'll be renewing this year........based on my useage (renting a PA28 for a double slot once a month) it's now the same cost as flying from Manchester, even with the landing fees and Liverpool is now 3/4 of the cost.

I suspect rising costs is going to drive other regulars away, which is such a shame, but as flying is such an expensive hobby in this country, any saving helps.

Is this the beginning of the end of Barton as we know it? There has been lots of speculation about Peel's future plans for the site, but could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers?

[helicopter-redeye]

could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers

Now that sounds familiar, at which other (similiar) airport have I heard the same strategy being played out .....

[Rod1]

£240 flying membership including free landing, free car park and the option to spend money in the club house is not such a good deal. For example; Tatenhill membership £35, landings free (two hard r/w’s), car parking free, club house free. Tatenhill is 1h30m by car from Barton.

Have to say I think Barton is a great place, with some very interesting aircraft, but Peel will kill it given time.

[Small Rodent Driver]

As to leading by example, rumours circulating suggest that the chairman's grouped Cessna 172 could be moving to Liverpool where rates are reported to be cheaper. The new company secretary has already moved his aircraft to Ashcroft.

Eh ! As a member of the same C172 group, this is news to me !

Dont know where this rumour originates from but there has never been any discussion concerning relocation of our a/c!

Please, Dog's Bone if you have anything to report concerning events at Barton ensure that it is factual. Otherwise it just kind of detracts from the validity of your other reporting.

[Dog's Bone]

Rod 1

Sounds like heaven!

Small Rodent

Fair enough. In mitigation dozens of people have heard the same story. It would appear that the (known) originator is one of your group members, who has clearly stated that enquiries had taken place with Liverpool. Apart from that, I know no more than what you seem to do.

[Dog's Bone]

I suspect rising costs is going to drive other regulars away, which is such a shame,

Is this the beginning of the end of Barton as we know it? There has been lots of speculation about Peel's future plans for the site, but could the price increases be a way of killing off the airfield slowly leaving way for the bulldozers?

Picky you could well be right. If you read Redeye's message under 'Sheffield City Airport Doomed' just tippex out 'Sheffield' and substitute 'Barton' in the header when it comes to the viability of the land as an airfield.

Rising costs have already driven a number of regulars away from Barton, a few more are getting ready to vacate the field, others are looking. Blackpool is becoming the hot favourite.

Costs at Barton are now set to rocket. From 1st April Barton has been run as though it were a major airport with all the attended high operating costs that that brings.

At the end of the day Barton is still a grass field operating in daylight hours with no navigation facilities and hangars which leak. The whole lot does need bulldozing, but would it ever be rebuilt to serve GA and what would the costs be then? But for the prices now being asked, people can and are going elsewhere and are finding that it can be cheaper than staying at Barton.

The BAOL staff have reportedly granted themselves pay rises roughly ranging £2000-6000+, for doing the same job. LAC/LPL staff not transferred to the new company are not getting any increase and are pi$$ed off. Air traffic control is reported to be costing around £150,000 a year with two new positions being created of Airfield Duty Officers each on an annual salary of £21,500. All this and more has to be paid for in the long run by income generated by the airfield users. MSCD have agreed to reimburse the running costs of the airfield, but as with Sheffield, will presumably only stand the losses for a set time. MSCD/Peel is not a charity. Hope no one has taken out a long term mortgage on the strength of their new job.

Figures being banded about indicate that MSCD/Peel need to get around £600,000 pa. To this end the resident businesses are having to dig deep. The two helicopter operators are earmarked to pay around £17,000-£25,000 pa each. The microlight school also a high figure. LAC flying school now has to find around £75,000 and the engineering department is reported to be up for £10,000 as airfield utilization - for taxiing aircraft around on the grass, as someone said.

LPL Ltd is loosing around £20,000 per month, a fact admitted by the Treasurer. The company is trading insolvent as also admitted by the Treasurer.

Now where is that Report on Barton's viability? In fact let's save them the trouble. It ain't financially viable and what's more MSCD/Peel already know that.

[Sir George Cayley]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!

Such an important, atmospheric, historic, centre of all things aviation in the northwest being killed off slowly and painfully.

I can hardly bear to watch.


Mutley .... Do Something!


Sir George Cayley

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

So Barton isn't viable. It probably never was, but for those of us who've enjoyed it as our playground for the last quarter century or more it is painful when someone comes along and takes it away.

What the comittee need to do - in fact what they should have done as soon as theis bleedin obvious writing was first put on the wall by Peel - is find a new home for LAC. Not at all easy I grant in these nimby times, but Derby did it when their base of Burnastan became a car factory.

SSD

[Dog's Bone]

Interesting news is that another flying training organisation is planning to move into Barton. This will put added pressure on LAC who have had the exclusive use of the airfield for over half a century. Now for the first time there will be competition for student training etc. etc.

The LAC Treasurer resigned shortly after the AGM in mid April. The new Company Secretary has also resigned and is no longer a member of LAC.

Aircraft continue to depart to pastures new. A rough tally of membership renewals, which were due by end of April, is suggesting that approximately 300 members have voted with their feet: if true then a sizeable loss of income.

[Established Localiser]

In business no one likes change !!

Although sometimes it can be a good thing (don't tell the Man U Fans)

Maybe just maybe investment may turn into a good thing, after all, the options visiting Manchester by air are limited if you take away Barton.

The next 2 years are crucial I reckon, maybe it will make a few quid !! & Peel may invest into it's future.

As for a potential flying school starting up GREAT ! why should one school have the monopoly, they will all have to raise their game .......good news for students i reckon !!

EL

[Dog's Bone]

Another LAC committee member has resigned reportedly due to a conflict of procedures between the Chairman of LAC/LPL and his airfield management company BAOL. This resignation was followed last week by the resignation of the new Treasurer, after only 3 months in the job!!!

LAC/LPL continues to run in a heavy loss situation, now reported to be well in excess of the previously admitted £20,000 per month and this in the height of the summer when it was hoped losses would diminish with more flying occurring. Just the opposite is happening and not helped by the appearance of Ravenair Flying School, now in residence with cheaper rates.

[Robinrider]

A free market is one of the many virtues of the Great British economy. Having a second flying school on the airfield can surely only generate more business for the Airfield as a whole?
It seems there are a few individuals who are resentful of change. One can certainly empathise, it has been 'thier' club for years, only to have the rug 'pulled from under thier feet'. However Change is not always a bad thing. There seems to be a growing trend at the moment to almost take glee in reporting bad 'Barton happenings'.
So what if another flying school has moved onto the field? Healthy competition should stimulate both schools into providing the best instruction for new pilots?
The accountants at Ravenair certainly are not stupid. If anything the growth of a new school on the field can only be a signal that the airfield's future is more secure than some would have you believe. Why on Earth would Ravenair, a successful school based at several Northwest Airports, risk so much by establishing a new base at an aerodrome, which as some ppruners seem to indicate, is dwindling?
Barton is a wonderful place, for GA in the Northwest it is second to none, I sincerely hope it will continue to thrive.

[Enigma76]

"Just the opposite is happening and not helped by the appearance of Ravenair Flying School, now in residence with cheaper rates."

You will find that if you look at the other costs incurred with Ravenair on top of the aircraft hire rate(a/c hire rate + landing + airfield utilisation fee + VAT) is actually more expensive than Lancashire Aero Club (a/c higher rate + landing fee NO VAT)

[Rod1]

Do both charge £240 for membership?

[Enigma76]

Neither schools charge £240 membership if you are learning to fly. LAC membership is £180 for the year (this is reduced by £15.00 a month)

[Dog's Bone]

Robinrider
Having a second flying school on the airfield can surely only generate more business for the Airfield as a whole ?
Yes and No. The way I read it is there is only one cake and that now has to be split between two flying schools. Whereas before one had the whole cake to itself (and ran at a loss). This could get even more interesting if a rumoured third operator starts up in the near future undercutting the other two by offering aircraft at even lower rates. Which means that an LAC flying member could claim his free landings using cheaper hired a/c.

LAC no longer (or at least at this point in time) provide PPL package deals. Probably because they got stung when they tried to charge existing students seperate landing and circuit fees from April 1st when BAOL took over the running of the airfield. The LAC chairman tried to charge the package paid students for these extras, though eventually relented under threat of legal action for breach of contract. LAC has had to absorb these additional charges. Presumably they are now juggling the figures for new students.

Do both charge £240 for membership? No. Read the multimembership rates on the download page at the ravenair.co.uk web site. One area where a PPL LAC member will benefit will be the use of the members car parking area when the new barriers/pay for parking etc. comes into effect shortly.

LAC Student membership rate is £180 pa, but the student does have to pay all landing and circuit fees. A 150 landing fee is £10+vat. The LAC £240 rate is for exisiting PPL members and includes landing & circuit fees. Though I gather this may all change next membership renewal year as the story goes the chairman has seriously underestimated the figures when buying the block movements off MSCD for the current LAC membership year.

We all agree that Barton is a good place for GA in the Manchester area, in fact THE ONLY PLACE, however many LAC members are not burying their heads in the sand and proclaiming everything to be rosie, as is the LAC/BAOL Chairman (conflict of interest there).

[niknak]

Enigma

If you are registered to pay VAT, you are obliged by law to charge it, if you aren't you don't have to.

It simply puts the Barton problem into perspective, it isn't viable as an airfield which purely depends on G/A as it's income. Along comes an outfit capable of running it as a viable enterprise if fees are raised to a realistic commercial level and G/A can't cope with the realities of life.
VAT on fuel, and life in general is a problem you should be raising with Mr Blair and is not the doing of the providers of suppliers.
Sod sentiments and "how it was in my day", wake up to reality or go somewhere else.

[Enigma76]

"If you are registered to pay VAT, you are obliged by law to charge it, if you aren't you don't have to."

The point I am making is that at LAC VAT is not charged on training or a/c hire due to a VAT exemption.

Dog's Bone

Suggest you check your info regarding landing charges to LAC Student's they get a reduced rate rather than the £10 + VAT.

Student members will also benefit from the free parking.

[Established Localiser]

Still Cheaper than Golf Club Membership !! & I enjoy Barton , don't be upset with change !! It can be OK long term.....Time will tell of course !!

I'm not a golfer !! ( best balls i ever hit was when i stood on a rake !) but i'm assuming ( never assume I know !) It'scheaper at Barton.

EL

[Sir George Cayley]

Yes memebership is a lot cheaper than a Golf Club. But then compare what one gets in return.

Also once you've payed you can play to your hearts content, but in Flying there are significant user costs each time you take a club a/c up. Thats the difference.

Change is good, agreed but it is difficult to accept when change is regarded as for the worse.

Having been associated with Barton for 30+ years and contributed to what it had become; it hurts deeply to see the spirit of the place so diminished.

I've alsways said the LAC can meet in a Pub if necessary but once BArton is gone its gone. I beleive it has been changed so radically since Peel took over that it is already not recognisable as a club field.

Shaggy is right. Those that were comfortable with the situation need to find somewhere else to indulge themselves leaving Salford International and all who want that type of airport to carry on.

Sir George Cayley

[Pilot Ginj]

Its fair enough saying everything was fine and barton should have been left as it was.

Truth is, if Barton was to carry on in any form things had to change. I believe its a little bit harsh directing all the bad feeling towards LAC and BAOL, these are the people who trying their hardest to make the place work.

As Established Localiser said give it time, things can and will get better, on the face of it the place is alreay looking better, it appears money is actually being reinvested into the airfield.

Just my 2 cents...

PG

[picky]

Dog's Bone Quote: "We all agree that Barton is a good place for GA in the Manchester area, in fact THE ONLY PLACE"

There is MSF at Manchester International. I recently "defected" there from Barton and finding it not that much more expensive to rent as a PPL. It has a much more personal feel, compared to being just a number at Barton. There is also a buzz about operating from there and the hold times aren't as bad as people make out. Membership is cheaper, availability is better and they don't charge for cancelling at short notice.

[gingernut]

they don't charge for cancelling at short notice

As far as I know, LAC don't either, unless its a flight & instructor booked. (Which seems fair enough).

[Enigma76]

It has a much more personal feel, compared to being just a number at Barton.

Most people find that Barton is a friendly and pleasant place to fly.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Barton is a pilot's playground. You can nip down there and have a tea and chat in the clubhouse. You can drag your aeroplane out, squint at the sky, then go and have another tea if sky looks non too good. If wx improves, you can fire-up, fly around the local area checking out the conditions, and if it looks good, go off somewhere. If it's grotty, land back and have a bacon butty. Or do a few circuits, PFLs, whatever.

No matter how friendly and efficient a large-airfield based flying school is, it can't offer that. You turn up, you fly or not, you go home.

Not the same sort of experience at all.

I've enjoyed this delightful pilot's playground, full of enthusiasts and interesting aeroplanes, for getting on for 30 years. If it goes, I'll miss it deeply but at least I will have enjoyed it. The guys coming into flying will never know what they missed. If it can be saved in anything like it's present form, it must be!

SSD

[Established Localiser]

Here Here SSD !!:ok:

I love the convienience & the atmosphere, the changes were inevitable & progress & Investment should not be shunned !

Although this "members only" for the Clubhouse In my view is not good.

Let Family's come and enjoy Aviation it creates dreams for young kids , so what if they buy a drink and a meal in the clubhouse !

As a Young Aviation Mad Kid I used to ride up to Barton Spotting ! and watch the pilots just jump in their planes and go ! ( I think Ginj was with us on occasions!)

I flew from Manchester Airport as well many times! and really enjoyed it , but it is a whole different ball game than Barton ! Can't knock it though I loved flying from Manchester just as much as I love flying from Barton.

As SSD said just to turn up and go for a Bimble one evening with very little restriction is priceless ! I did exactly that last night !

EL

[Rod1]

I joined LAC some months ago having had very good reports on how great it was in years gone by. The members seem friendly and some of the groups are very good. As far as the rest is concerned, I found the service poor, with long delays and some strange attitudes. I would say I was treated very much like a number and given the cost I will not be renewing my membership, but I wish them all the best with avoiding Peel extracting every penny and then closing it down.

Rod1