Ryanair Assessment Scam?

[yosser-hughes]

I've just been fortunate enough:rolleyes: to have recently been invited to a Ryanair Assessment day at EMA. I failed the sim, and have no grievancies about that but I feel that everyone going for this adventurous day out, I was there for 11 hours and it cost GBP300 , should be aware that you have a very slight chance of succeeding and that this bullish airline has found another way of making CASH. This time from desperate low houred wanabee pilots who have given everything in order to make a career from flying but who just need a chance. Congatulations to everyone who has passed the assessment but even after the self financed type rating course they enter a contract period and are not employed by the company.
There is a wealth of pilots for them to choose from but by heck you've gotta be good... real good for a low houred jockey. Reality is they are just ploughing through as many as they can, taking they're money and saying cheers, "Roll Up Roll Up who's next and fancies their chances??" BEWARE!
I'd be happy to give more info if anyone is interested...

[flybe.com]

I'm too annoyed with this to be constructive. You guys prove yourself to be intelligent and capable human beings by qualifying as commercial pilots, then you go and fall for this kind of crap, you deserve no sympathy whatsoever.:mad:

[Frank Furillo]

Now don't be to hard an Yosser, he's had a rough life!!!!
Hey Yoss how's Chrissy and his ducks?

[duece19]

Yosser

Me thinks you sound very bitter...

According to rumours the quality of last cadetts have gone down, and the check has become harder and a few people actually fail :sad:

duece

[Global Pilot]

The nature of the business of Low Cost Carriers is to minimise any cost within reason and so pass on savings to its pax. £200Gbp or whatever it is in euro now is a training cost that RYR can minimse without blushing. Every potential cadet is aware of the cost of selection before going along to EMA so posting after the event(especially when you didn't make it) appears bitter.

The name in this game, without sticking your head in the sand and taking it up the ash, is to keep your head down and just get on with the job. It will all come right in the end and have been worth all the grief!

Hope you get lucky with some commpany real soon mate!

[scolgan]

Thanks for the advice lads I was hoping to give the FR sim check a go after the CPL.

[eagerbeaver]

Yosser, i was there on wednesday and passed. Unlucky, i dont think it is a scam. It is always difficult to accept failure especially when you think you have done ok. Think of the positives you got interview experience, you got an hour and a half in a simulator, you may even possibly have even met me ( a rare treat in itself). Chin up it could be worse.

FLYBE - dont you dare be so arrogant, i presume you are fortunate to be employed. Have a little look at your contract and how you are paying off your training (prob a bond) then look at your salary. Then have a look at the ryanair deal and i think you will find that after 18 months a FR pilot will be in a much better position. Better aircraft type, more hours, less agro. more money, stable roster, better bases, better routes. Nuff said



Also Fr dont just let anyone attend the selection days, it depends on their current requirements. So anyone who thinks they will apply then recieve a phonecall sometime in the future is completely wrong. I was told that only 3 out mof ten pass pilot selection.

[Dictionary]

All of us who are recently qualified and low on hours would just about sell our Mothers for that first flying job! And Ryanair and O'Leary know that. And yes those of us that are lucky enough to be offer a position with Ryanair will initially look differently upon this! But without Pilots a Company would not be able to operate and even those Ryanair pilots who have been with the company a few years now are unhappy at the way they are unsed and abused. So why don't we start by stopping! Don't apply to Ryanair, they would soon have to change their recruitment policy.Thats is my feeling about this company, the One and only company I have never applied to, because of the way they treat the staff and potential staff.

[Ms. Turret (Ozi)]

but by heck you've gotta be good... real good for a low houred jockey.
Nope, just better than you evidently.
Don't apply to Ryanair, they would soon have to change their recruitment policy.
You really think so? Many are called, few are chosen. Would you really have us relax our standards to give the likes of you an easier ride? We're running a successful airline, not a sheltered workshop for inadequates.

[Dictionary]

I Don't think so, you just have to read Pprune the National papers and some big pilot unions, to know what people are thinking!!!!!!!

You really think so?(YES) Many are called, few are chosen (Money spinner). Would you really have us relax our standards to give the likes of you an easier ride(What Standars? Have pliots pay for everything)? We're running a successful airline, not a sheltered workshop for inadequates.
I would be careful calling people names!!

[Min Drag]

Tend to agree with Dictionary/Yosser here. Being currently "in between jobs" and actively looking, I found the tone on Ryanair's website to be totally arrogant and it just pi**ed me off.

It does indeed appear to be making the most out of the current market with plenty of low hours guys around more than happy to add a few hundred quid to their debts for the chance of that dream job.

Having said that, it is a commercial environment and they can get away with it at the moment.

Things are starting to change and so will Ryanair's attitude have to, I have been positively discouraged from quite a few not to apply so won't be wasting my time and money :ok:

MD

[yosser-hughes]

HI EVERYONE! Fantastic - I enjoyed the responses...

Quite right the airline would wana take the best of the crop but for LOW HOURS guys who HAVE NOT flown a B737 before the chances of getting in are poor AND I realy believe the airline is feeding the bank account. B737 sim costs about £200/2hr, crews pair up making £600 for 1 and 1/2 hr...AND MAJORITY DON'T MAKE IT!! So why doesn't RYANAIR vet the CV's more closely because they can make money by letting guys n girls play the "job lottery". We are all desperate to fly for a living.

How is assessment done? Based on improvement or raw data tollerances?? I don't know.

Well done to the few who have made it, Im honestly pleased for you and good luck, commiserations to the rest, type rated and all.

For the record I'm not bitter, definately not. I knew I'd failed the sim and I enjoyed the "challenge" and Yes I'd be fool enough to have another go... The guys that got in ARE probably better than me but I like to think they were only better on the day..

Thanks for your thoughts one and all.

Ooooops forgot to reply to Ms. Turret...

I like you, you sound real fiesty but don\'t be too hard on us low houred "inadequates". You never know one day we might be using the same airspace.. (and don\'t say "I HOPE NOT!" hee hee)

Global thanx for the encouragement you sound the sort of guy who makes for a good working environment.. Ms. Turret what do you think?

[flybe.com]

Dictionary - For what it's worth, you have my respect. You have taken on board information from many sources and made a personal choice, good on you for doing so.

eagerbeaver - See above para! You simply cannot ignore what is being said by so many people inside Ryanair, if this all adds up to 'less agro' in your opinion, then fine. The point I was making above was that, if you choose to ignore the wealth of advice available, and apply to this mob, don't expect any sympathy when you get rejected.

Yosser - Well done for taking these comments on the chin, hopefully you've learnt a valuable lesson.

[duece19]

Yosser

About the simcheck and evaluation, as far as Im concerned, they want to see if you can fly. They are not expecting you to ace the techincal aspect of the flying.

What they do expect to see is good CRM and a good attitude. You have most likely never met you simpartner but still you have to be able to work like a team, sounds simple but can be hard as we all know.

This is valid for most of the airlines about, crm crm crm crm crm and attitude, and top that up with sound and reasonable flying.

my two cents...

duece

[Global Pilot]

Flybe

This "mob" has created 190 new flying positions in the last 12 months. Sure it is not every ones cup of tea but in lean times 190 new jobs is not bad. Prehaps the terms and conditions will change when the market becomes stronger but in the meantime these new piots are logging hours on 737NGs.

Yes there are some people unhappy at RYR, like most companies I would think but there are heaps of others quiet content to be getting 2000hrs in their log book in the space of about 30months.

I respect everyones right to choose which company they apply to. From colleagues working for the dreaded RYR, the word is that is not the hell hole portrayed here and elsewhere.

rgds,
GP.

[Airskid]

Hi guys
you people keep on talking about low hours and yet you got jobs with 2-3000 hrs.Can anybody tell me whats a low hour pilot exactly.

thanks:confused:

[Global Pilot]

Low hours for a freshly qualified pilot would be around 200-250 of which the majority would be SE piston. With a type rating the minimum Ryanair are looking for is 100 on type before you can bypass the cadet scheme they run.

[flybe.com]

I appreciate your comments. I just think that Ryanair are responsible for bringing down terms & conditions throughout the airline industry in the UK & Ireland. Having said that, obviously Ryanair are not solely responsible as they only lay down the criteria, it is us who choose to apply or not.

[Mister Geezer]

Eagerbeaver

May I draw your attention to this thread which is a summary of how poorly paid a new F/O is with Ryanair. You were painting a very rosy picture of Ryanair and I fear that you may be in for a shock. I will never work for Ryanair and I will never fly Ryanair as a passenger!


I am a First Officer in Ryanair and here is exactly how I am being payed in the first 12 months:

Type rating (4-6 WEEKS):

No pay

You then wait 2-4 weeks for base training without pay. After base training you are on the training contract basic rate for 6 months. This is an annual rate of 8700 pounds. However, you do not start getting payed this until after line training. Line training takes 2-3 months so you are therefore only payed on this rate for 3-4 months. Sounds complicated? It is purposely so.Not only that, but the company reduces this initial rate by 1000 pounds every year or so without notice. Next year you might therefore expect the rate to be 7700 pounds.

So, from the start of type rating until conclusion of line training you will only have earned about 750 pounds (half sector pay after safety pilot release and no basic salary yet).

About 3.5 months now remain until you finish your training contract. On the annual rate of 8700 (remember this will reduce eventually) you will earn 2530 basic in this time. Also, you will earn 2800 sector pay.

To sum up so far:

Day 1 to completion of line check ( 4 months) = 750 pounds

Line check to end of training contract (3.5 months) = 5330 pounds

Total after 7.5 months with the company = 6080 pounds.

It will now have been 6 months since base check. You will now go on the basic second officer terms. This amounts to a basic annual rate of 14000 pounds and half sector pay for a further 6 months.

In these 6 months you will therefore earn 7000 pounds basic and about 4800 pounds sector pay. This basic rate is also being reduced annually without notice.

Ok, here are the final figures (before tax) for the first 12 months after the base check:

Basic pay: 9530 pounds

Sector pay: 8350 pounds

Total: 17880 Pounds.

You can expect to remain on second officer pay scale for 18 months after line check. This will probably increase to a greater time period as time goes by.

As a turboprop F/O I am laughing at the pittence that is being paid! It is an insult to Ryanair pilots and those new joiners are not doing themselves any justice by joining such a outfit.

Yosser

Ryanair have done you a favour in giving you the elbow. You are far better off on the outside! Keep you chin high and you can smile because any other airline that you apply to now will be an improvement on Ryanair! That has to be a nice thought!

[aegeanmagic]

I was there at Ryanair assessment.I failed.
I don't want to say many thinks.....
But is a good change to try .....take a risk.....
is like casino.... you never know?
But I realy want to say that they treat you,like a slave who beg them to fly.
For example they don't offer you a telephone to call your hotel to pick you up!

Good luck!!!!

[flybe.com]

.....and as long as people keep applying under these terms, they'll keep taking liberties.

[essexboy]

When coming into the aviation business you have several options:
Work as an instructor/ GA and build hours (very low wages).
Work for a small turbo prop outfit and and gain experience (also low wages)
Pay money up front and try for a place with Ryanair.

Do you think the other major airlines are doing you a favour by not offering this option? They just wont take you.

If you think that £17880 in your first year is bad try instructing. I have been with the company 3 years now and I think they are great. Good roster patterns and I earned over £20000 sector pay last year. That’s after tax and on top of my salary. When I joined I didn’t have to pay for a rating I know. Maybe in a few years if the demand out strips the supply you wont have to again.

One piece of advice if you decide to pay for a rating and join a company without having spent years building hours elsewhere don’t moan about what you have done. I am sick to death of new cadets saying but I am £60000 in dept. Its your choice. If its your cash don’t make the choice lightly and if its not you are very lucky. Give a pilot a gold bar and it would be the wrong shape.

[GoldenMonkey]

Essexboy

I was interested to see your summary of the options available to 'low hour' pilots. I presume, when you say "Pay money up front and try for a place with Ryanair.", you are talking about shelling out for the type rating. As a low hour pilot, what I am interested in knowing is....

Say I take one of the other options initially, (eg "Work for a small turbo prop outfit and gain experience"). At the end of this period (2 years say) would I still be a position where I'd have to pay for my Jet type rating and go through all the well publicised hoops?

I know you can't say what the market will dictate in 2 years time, but say for today's experienced turbo prop pilots that want to break into the Jet world, do they have to go down the same avenue as the low hour boys and girls?

Cheers


GoldenMonkey

[yosser-hughes]

Thanks duece, I think you're right re CRM but if the assessors are doing the assessment on a marking system based on tollerance flying (speed, tracking and height) that goes very much against a low hour "inadequate" (see Ms. Turret and I'm still laughing!) as opposed to showing a marked improvement method??

Anyway onward and upward I'm off to find another shiny aeroplane operator... and you never know I might even get paid after paying for my type rating:ok:

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

[duece19]

Yosser

Well I dont know for sure what they are actually looking at, but a friend of mine who are doing those checks, said that they want to see that you can fly an airplane, and they are not expecting you to be a 732 god. However there might be other simdudes who thinks diffrent.

Anyway, if you ace your crm and airmanship, then just show off some reasonable flying and you´ve passed.

ooh BTW, I almost turned the wrong way in a holding, but I passed. Now that wasent FR but I´d say its about the same.


cheers

[BlueVolta]

I was also in EMA last week, I was not called for a cadet position by the school but for an FO job trough Brookfield and it ended as an cadet non negociable offer....
I failed the sim because, I was not any more concentrated in what I was doing, I flew the sim only because I paid for it.
I am flying a heavy modern turboprop (not in Europe) for much better conditions than those offered by Ryanair.
I was not a fan of Ryanair, I spent some money to see it from inside (I will not tell "I lost some money", because I have learned a lot during this British day), and I have no regrets, as I know now that this is not the airline I would like to work for.
There are good jobs around, if you take all the + and all the -, Ryanair is may be not the best, and will it last? Looking more in depth at it I have some doubts.

[essexboy]

Golden Monkey,
All I am saying is that the more experience you have the more opportunities there are available to you. Who knows in 2 years time (after flying turbo props as you suggest) you may have to still pay for a type rating. You may even still have to pay for a sim check but the chances are you are going to be far more likely to pass it. Half the guys applying to Ryanair think that they are buying a job when they pay for a sim check.

We wont take on any crap pilot just cos he’s paid for a check ride or even a type rating. No one will. You pay your money and take your chances. Or in many cases daddy will.

[lasloflyer]

Admit it Bluevolta you failed the SIM because you can't fly to the required level not because you decided not to concentrate. Some of you guys really need to listen to yourselves!!!

For the record guys...I passed!!!

[Mister Geezer]

Aye - and your bank manager will be passing something unpleasant in sheer shock at your overdraft!

[EricTheRed]

Lasloflyer,

Well done for passing. I'm sure nobody is as happy for you, as you are yourself. Perhaps you might have taken a more humble approach toward those who were not as fortunate on the day.

It's all good and well to be excited and pleased at passing this hurdle, but you now have many more challenges ahead of you. One of them will be to gain the respect of your colleagues.

Old Chinese proverb say; "Don't upset people on the way up, as you may need their help on the way down."

Good luck - and tread carefully! Take it from someone who knows.

ETR

PS; For the record... just listen to yourself!

[BlueVolta]

lasloflyer, congratulations for going to FR, :ok:

You do not know me, you do not know how I react, before judging someone, or his ability or not to fly correctly you have to know a little bit the person.
If you read correctly my post I didn't say that I choose deliberately to fail, I was irritated by the offer and even during the interview with the HR guy I wanted to say stop. So after that I was even not correcting my mystakes during the last minutes of the sim, and my only concern was to catch my plane and not spending an other expensive night in a hotel for nothing.
For me flying is fun, encountering different people, the best one and the worst one...
And FR is not for me, I am will not match in their organization, that's it. We all can adapt to a certain extent but we all have limits of what is acceptable

Wish you all the best for the guys with FR, and keep EricTheRed proverb in mind, it can turn usefull.

cheers:cool:

[FRying]

I have left FR a short while ago.

And I thank God for letting me working in that other place and not to have to live up to this sh!te airline anymore. I simply could not stand that bullish atmosphere. I finally feel happy going to work and being a member of my new airline.

If you're there : LEAVE ! you'll understand why I'm saying that when you're some place else.

If you're not there : NEVER APPLY ! You'll understadn my word when you're there.

[Global Pilot]

There is also a work ethic in Ryanair that people should be aware of. You might very well do a good tech interview and fly a good sim check but will you get on with the guy in the left seat for 6-7hours a day? This is a question asked of a great many potential new first officers applying for RYR and indeed other carriers throughout Europe.
So you have to:
1. Have a good scan
2. Display some CRM skills
3. Handle the aircraft in a reasonable fashion and
4. Give the check instructor the impression that you will be pleasant to deal with in a working environment.

Your scan and handling can be improved on with training but your personality cannot!