Low Flying blame culture at JHC?

[Talk Split]

This one goes out to all you lads and lasses flying Her Majesty's green helicopter fleet.

Since the first of February, we all now have to not only book in to the low flying system, but send a COPY of our route to ALFENS in order that they can 'collect statistical data' on military low flying.

It appears to me that this is a complete over-reaction to an admmitedly awful incident involving an SH and a female horse rider.

Not only will this change create a huge paper trail at the end of the month, but will make UK exercise detachments, and the nature of our business very difficult. More worryingly, perhaps this is the first step to making individual AC Commanders culpable in similar incidents (corporate manslaughter?)

Am I being too cynical? Comments please...

[Razor61]

http://www.paragonfoundation.org/perilous_skies.htm

This link details a few incidents regarding low flying and animals/humans in several countries of Europe and North America.

Razor

[heights good]

i was reading the recommendations that came about from this incident and some of them just go to show the extreme lack of knowledge the average person has. Strobes or infra red links that aircraft could pick up while flying. Honestly the people in power should be saying dry your eyes and lets get on with the job. I understand that what happened was tragic but 1 person killed every few years by a helicopter is nothing compared to the amount killed by cars. What next, engine cut outs for cars if they get within 100' of a horse. Of course not the public know about cars so that would be silly.

The military they are all lunatics who fly everywhere with their hair on fire shouting "tally ho, bandits 9 o'clock, tipping in!" then after they have waxed their handlebar moustache its off to the bar for gin and tonics and some piano burning. The world has went health and safety crazy, somebody needs to get into power who has some bollocks and conviction about them to change things and tell all the tree huggers and do gooders to wind their necks in!!!


Phew!!!! and relax....... sorry chaps had to get that off my chest, rant over.

HG

p.s. and just as an afterthought horsie types should be made to wear massive suits of cotton wool and bubble wrap. You cant be too careful these days, what if a helicopter was too suddenly appear???? Would not want to be caught out. Then again somebody would then sue because it took so long to get the suit off that they pi**ed themselves. Emotional stress, at least a 5 figure payout!

[crossbow]

Just another nail in the UKLFS coffin. Unfortunately, the seeds have been sown and I think we will shortly lose the ability to low fly in the UK. After all, is there a requirement to low fly in this country? Where do we conduct our operational Low Flying? The deserts of the middle East? The jungles of Sierra Leone? So how does Low flying over 7T prepare us for that? Maybe we should conduct out OLF out of country. Now lets see. Where could we go that has both a desert and a jungle?

[PTT]

Maybe we should conduct out OLF out of country
I did note the irony in the above post, but the question does need to be addressed. Quite simply, getting helicopters overseas either takes an awfully long time or uses resources (c-17s, for example) which would be better used elsewhere.

[crossbow]

Quite simply, getting helicopters overseas either takes an awfully long time or uses resources (c-17s, for example) which would be better used elsewhere.

or why not send them out on ships... cheap as chips... or how about we use the aircraft that are already in theatre... even cheaper than chips

[PTT]

Not all types can operate from ships, and those that are already shipborne are usually on ops.

Carrying out training in theatre removes the whole point of training - you train to be prepared for the theatre, so you don't turn up "cold".

[oldbeefer]

More to the point, perhaps, is that the track on the map has to be the one actually flown and not the planned track. Can be no element of Prevention here, just Prosecution when someone else gets hurt.

[heights good]

Low flying abroad, are you mad? If the daily rags got hold of that they would have a field day.

"RAF Top Guns use training trip as excuse to get drunk in spain"

The people who campaign for these things should get put in the jump seat of a Puma/Chinnook/Merlin and let them nav all the way round a low level route for a few hours. Once they get the hang of that, try some underwires crossings, some CA,s a few CAD's, simulated contacts, EW, ToT, a few fast jets to mix it up a bit to and to top it all we could try it in the dark later on.

Might just get these do gooder, hippy tree huggers to appreciate that its a skill that fades very quickly. Its a fact WE NEED TO DO LOW FLYING!!!! End of story.

[crossbow]

Its a fact WE NEED TO DO LOW FLYING!!!! End of story.

why? and why in the UK?

[Talk Split]

Heard a stat today that puts this whole saga into perspective. Apparently nearly 100 horse riders are involved in an RTA on British roads each year. No I can't back up this quote with evidence but I bet that the actual figure is a damn sight more than the one person killed by military low flying. Do we ban traffic on the roads (or horses?).

This 'zero-risk' culture we live in now really does pi** me off...

[heights good]

crossbow im intersted to know your background because i doubt very much your from a military aviation background if your even asking these questions

[glum]

Crossbow, I appreciate you are only on Proone to cause fights, but didn't you read the post above yours?

And I guess 'why in the UK' because it's far more expensive to do it abroad.

The lack of free airspace in the UK is getting worse as the urban sprawl takes over the countryside, but as long as aircraft need to fly at low level operationally, we will have to balance the needs of training against the effects of doing it at home, and the costs of doing it abroad.

[crossbow]

Im just playing devils advocate. Guys, the UKLFS is under serious threat and I'd bet that within 18 months it no longer exists. So, what is to be done? Now I like to low fly as much as the next fella BUT if I want to low fly in the future I will have to go abroad to do it. So, will someone please please justify the need for a UKLFS.

So far all of your arguments fall down very quickly.

try some underwires crossings, some CA,s a few CAD's, simulated contacts, EW, ToT, a few fast jets to mix it up a bit to and to top it all we could try it in the dark later on. all of which can be conducted outside of the UK.

[HEDP]

So we export it all to someone elses backyard huh! Not only the cost of getting there but have to pay for use of whatever area as well. Seems to me that we expend vast amounts of money just to alleviate a small risk of injury. Still, thats what the H and S culture has brought about and the end result is every last one of us pays the extra premiums. Are a majority of taxpayers in the country going to cough up the extra dough that would be required to conduct this training overseas? If so then no probs but I suspect that if the bill were quantified and put into the equation of the next enquiry of whatever nature then the outcome might be different. IMHO.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

hyd3failure,
I don't know where you got your 'irresponsible Chinook flying' quote from, but it's f'ing out of line. It was proven in court that the crew to which you are clearly referring, were operating within their auth and within the rules of the UKLFS. I suggest you amend your post because you are wrong and it is exactly that sort of thing that opponents of the UKLFS will seize upon.

crossbow,
In the RW world low flying training is achieved on the back of real tasks. If we have to shift a load of troops from some training area to their barracks, it will probably be done at low level for the training benefit. We do not just wake up and think "What shall we do today? I know, let's fling an empty helo around the country at 50ft, pissing people off, for a bit of a giggle". Do you suggest that all such tasks should be carried out at medium level or IFR and then we should separately go overseas to carry out some LL trg, because it won't happen. Apart from the money issue raised, there simply isn't enough time in the program or ac availability to carry out UK tasking, operational dets and then add in major training dets. How easy do you think it is to get a Chinook to Canada or Australia? Do you think that Germany would happily accept all of a foreign nation's LL Trg to be carried out in their backyard, or any other European nation?

If UK low flying training ceases, more aircrew and their passengers will be killed when low flying is a necessity.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. The Government and many of the population want something for nothing in terms of defence: minimise training, minimise spending, maximise Operations. Nobody seems to have a clue of the effort that goes into minimising disturbance (ie LFAAs, transit areas, hospital avoids, industrial avoids, other avoids, restricted areas, prohibited areas, PMPAs, NOTAMs, local area avoids, hotspots, other stations' local area avoids, and weaving at low level so not to directly overfly individual buildings, etc etc). Any Health and Safety rep, horsey type, treehugger or pprune stirrer should try a few hours of NVG low level before they comment on how we should train. If they still do get the point then f*ckit, let's swap places. They can defend the nation while I mince round Islington, Guardian in one hand, bubbly in the other, crying about rural aircraft noise.

Stout

Blood pressure. Hot. Sweats on. 'You wouldn't like me when I'm angry' Hulk type moment. Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

OK hyds, I don't quite get you. Are you just being sarcastic and playing Devil's Advocate like some others on this thread, or should we take what you write as representing your opinion (as is traditional in debate and conversation)?

If, as your profile states, your current aircraft type is 'rotary and fast' and if I assume correctly that you are military (because you wouldn't presume to speculate on military regulations if you weren't, would you?), then you know damn well that low flying with military passengers on board is normal and is not illegal.

[Training Risky]

HYD3 IS NOT A PILOT

Hyd3, If you knew anything about military helicopter flying you would know what you have typed is bollix. I have flown pax at LL in Chinooks on training sorties in the UK... PERIOD!

[Lafyar Cokov]

For those who say we should only low fly abroad: Would you please state which countries are going to allow us to export all our low flying there?? If you are thinking Canada - then get real. Besides the cost - (and yes JHC are broke - not sure about strike) To complete enough low flying to remain proficient would mean that we would have to deploy about once a month for a couple of weeks. Those of us who are actually in the military currently believe that we may spend enough time away from our long-suffereing families as it is - without popping across the atlantic for half the year. Nowhere in Europe will be happy with us - just as we wouldn't be happy if the French/Dutch/Germans/Norgies etc decided to bring all thier low flying to the UK.

I sometime cannot believe the bollox I read on here sometimes.

LC

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Looks like between us we vanquished hyds3. His crappy posts have been deleted. I guess this chiseller will reappear under a new alias in no time at all.

Moral of the story, (journos, spotters, nutters, fitters at Westland helicopter who know less than they think they do about piloting, take note), if you're pretending to be someone you're not on this forum then you're punching above your weight, and you will get busted, so poke off.

BTW, TR, I know your name (in a dodgy Irish accent), and you may know mine.

Stout

[fatobs]

As a simple SAR boy how am I supposed to do my training?

Very difficult to do winching from 500ft...

If I can't train I can't go and get those horse riders who are hit by cars ( heard it was 33 killed in last 10 years) or those climbers / walkers / lost politicians etc.

Suppose I could get anyone sailing or blown out to sea so long as they are outside the UKLFS.

They all complain until they need us.

All for going overseas to fly, beers got to be better.

Only 2 yrs to go................

[LoeyDaFrog]

Crossbow,
I decided to not post a comment regarding your views, thinking that 'hey, each to their own' and all that; BUT THIS


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a fact WE NEED TO DO LOW FLYING!!!! End of story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



why? and why in the UK?

really takes the bisquit!!!!
Despite the comments from other threads about your flying experience, how the chuffing hell can you say this. You are obviously a v small and v narrow minded Ar$£ who has no concept about anything at all, whatsoever.

And if you are looking for a bite, so Effing what!!! LF is a must and the knee-jerk reaction that the SH fleet now have to contend with is just another distraction that professiional crews can do without which will ultimately seriously degrade our fighting abilities.
GO AWAY!!!!!

[Autorev]

Crossbow

I don't want to have to be personal but needs must. How much of a "back to front" are you?
A wind up merchant - certainly. But if you get so much glee from winding people up about something that you are so ill informed about, well that makes you a really sad little man.

You suggest we export our low flying overseas. Mmmm, lets think, we aren't going to startle horses, little children, stampeding cows anywhere else in Europe? Or maybe you would have us transit further afield to train.

If you are genuinely mil aircrew, then wake up and think about what you are saying...but then all you seem to do is want to suck Tony/Buff's c@ck for a hobby so little hope of that....

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Well, we might have done a lot of ML bombing in the Gulf, but we also did a fair bit of under-the-weather low level at night when we didn't have enhanced Paveway ready.

We might find ourselves off to Kosovo or similar again with enough of a credible air threat to preclude flying at ML.

And low flying isn't something we can just remember how to do if we haven't done it for a couple of years thanks to a bunch of bleeding heart liberals and some people on horses who think they're more important than our capability.

We're good at low level and we're going to stop being useful compared to a lot of forces if we get rid of another "unique selling point."

"RAF Top Guns use training trip as excuse to get drunk in spain"

Funny how there's never an article claiming we use training as an excuse to get drunk in North Wales, huh? :}

[crossbow]

we aren't going to startle horses, little children, stampeding cows anywhere else in Europe? Who mentioned Europe? why train over Europe?

have flown pax at LL in Chinooks on training sorties in the UK... PERIOD Ooooppss.. better delete that fella...I wouldn't admit to breaking the rules like that

[PTT]

crossbow

First, thanks for completely failing to respond to my answers to your previous questions and for resetting to the default "but why?" position. I answered that in about the fourth post in this thread.

Second, Training Risky did not break the rules if he followed certain guidelines set out in the JHC FOB, which I am certain any professional aviator knows of and follows - no need for a retraction at all. I wonder if you could tell me what those guidelines are?

[CrabInCab]

Were it not for low flying training in the UK; I, 2 fellow crew members and 2 Pax would not be alive today and we would be down another airframe in the SH world. Terrain masking in the desert, you should try it some day. :*

I wonder if you could tell me what those guidelines are?

STANO Alert!!! ;)

[Hueymeister]

I know, do what the Americans are doing...draw down the European bases, as it's too expensive and too restrictive to train in places like Germany, and look to re-basing in the new NATO member countries (eg. Romania)

[PTT]

For crossbow

Please forgive the rotary bias and understand that these are my own opinions and in no way represent those of the MoD :)

Q. Why do we need to low fly?
A. Low flying is a skill which increases survivability by using terrain to mask aircraft from anti-aircraft systems. It is a difficult skill to master which is why it needs to be practiced.

Q. Why can’t aircraft just fly above the threat?
A. Some can’t – helicopters, for example.

Q. Don’t we have equipment which stops aircraft being shot down?
A. Some guided weapons can be decoyed by the use of, for example, flares, but other’s can’t be decoyed easily. Similarly, unguided weapons (RPGs, bullets, AAA shells) cannot be decoyed. Using terrain for cover prevents the enemy from seeing you and therefore from shooting at you.

Q. Why don’t we train for this overseas – in theatre or based from ships, for example?
A. It’s expensive and difficult to get aircraft overseas, especially helicopters, and not all types can operate from ships. Those which do operate from ships are usually in-theatre already and therefore should be trained to do the job beforehand. Training while in theatre will increase risk unnecessarily – crews should be trained before they do the task, which is the whole point of training. Furthermore, training overseas separate to other commitments would mean even more time away from friends, family and home than the already overstretched forces are currently spending, and there is already a morale problem.

Q. Why don’t we have intensive work-up periods prior to deployment instead of constant low-flying?
A. Low flying is not an easy skill to master and cannot be switched on and off. It is a skill which needs constant maintenance and upkeep.

Q. Why don’t we low fly over built-up areas?
A. Several reasons:
1. In war it is tactically unsound to fly in urban areas unless necessary. There are places helicopters can practice this, but it doesn’t make much difference to fixed wing at 250’.
2. If there is an accident there is less risk of large numbers of fatalities if we don’t low fly over towns.
3. If you think low flying over countryside is a nuisance then imagine the nuisance if we flew over cities!
These reasons amalgamate into a good case not to low fly in urban areas.

Q. Our current theatres are in deserts and jungles. How does low flying over the UK help train for this?
A. First, we need to train for any theatre, so temperate training is relevant. Second, low flying is a skill-set in itself. The colour of the terrain is pretty much irrelevant, and the UK provides all of the problems you get in almost any theatre – the flatness of Lincolnshire nicely models the southern Iraqi desert, and the many wooded areas show us some of the problems we can expect to encounter in jungles. There is sufficient variation in the UK to represent most conditions. Areas we do need to deploy for are mountain flying and limited visibility landings (snow and dust).

Q. Why can’t we use simulators?
A. First, simulators are not good enough to accurately represent low flying. Neither the graphics nor the flight models are accurate enough yet. Second, there is a different “feel” when you get into a simulator to when you get into the aircraft. You know very well that you can crash the sim and walk away, but you are similarly very aware that you can’t do that in the real thing. Correspondingly, you do things differently in the sim.

CrabInCab - need a check? ;)

[crossbow]

PTT - Thank you. At last someone has been able to find the time and graciousness to write a constructive and sagacious reply. You are clearly an intelligent and responsible person and so I thank you for that. The points you make are most valid and hopefully they will stand up and could be used by the Airships when the House of Commons select committee meets to abolish the UKLFS. We need good, solid arguments like yours in order to persuade our elected MP's that OLF is a vital and indispensable skill, which we cannot afford to lose. We all know that LF is a perishable skill (try going LF after a 3 week leave period and be honest with yourself about your performance) and as such it is imperative we retain this core flying skill. I’m still not convinced that we will be able to retain the UKLFS as I’m not persuaded our elected MP’s have the backbones to dismiss the anti-low fly campaigners but at least your thread is a step in the right direction.. TY

[glum]

Fuddy bluck Crossbow, is that an agreement and an insult of the government in one post?

Seems you're coming to your senses!!

[JHC Wilton]

Anyone flown under wires at night operationally?

[Spur Lash]

Wilton (been carpeted?:ok: )

Depends what you want to define as 'operationally'; but SAR missions have done the deed. Without the experience gained from low flying, both on SAR training and SH, it would not have been possible to save the lives that the UK military have.

If the government wishes to maintain a credible support to its people in times of crisis with the use of military aviation - think Boscastle et al; the military aviation community needs to maintain credible training - at low level.

[HEDP]

Under wires is a fact of life in Bosnia

[Training Risky]

Fg Off Max Stout, cx your PMs!

[the_flying_cop]

i fly over congested built up areas, we are legal to 500' (is that low enough to be low flying) both during the day and the night. we always get complaints about waking people up at night, low flying aircraft in distress, sheep being worried and so on.

the majority of people who complain are also the types that complain that the police are not doing anything to catch villains. yet the whole point of us buzzing round their back garden at 4am is that fact that the guy we are following has their dvd player under his arm.

i feel that this same group of people would be the first to complain if we were unable to defend ourselves or that our armed services were no longer effective at doing a job we have done so well for 50 years+

the answers have been printed above. military low flying is a must, personally i think there should be more of it. im just gutted that i never see you guys over manchester. the sight and sound of a fast jet at 100' cannot fail to raise a smile.




p.s. any chance of a back seat ride with you guys, i can offer a slighty less demanding ride in our kite if u wanna see what we do (PM's more than welcome)

(these are my own opinions and not those of my employer - sadly have to insert that these days due to all the journo's etc)

regards

TFC