Low Flying blame culture at JHC?
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Low Flying blame culture at JHC?
This one goes out to all you lads and lasses flying Her Majesty's green helicopter fleet.
Since the first of February, we all now have to not only book in to the low flying system, but send a COPY of our route to ALFENS in order that they can 'collect statistical data' on military low flying.
It appears to me that this is a complete over-reaction to an admmitedly awful incident involving an SH and a female horse rider.
Not only will this change create a huge paper trail at the end of the month, but will make UK exercise detachments, and the nature of our business very difficult. More worryingly, perhaps this is the first step to making individual AC Commanders culpable in similar incidents (corporate manslaughter?)
Am I being too cynical? Comments please...
Since the first of February, we all now have to not only book in to the low flying system, but send a COPY of our route to ALFENS in order that they can 'collect statistical data' on military low flying.
It appears to me that this is a complete over-reaction to an admmitedly awful incident involving an SH and a female horse rider.
Not only will this change create a huge paper trail at the end of the month, but will make UK exercise detachments, and the nature of our business very difficult. More worryingly, perhaps this is the first step to making individual AC Commanders culpable in similar incidents (corporate manslaughter?)
Am I being too cynical? Comments please...
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http://www.paragonfoundation.org/perilous_skies.htm
This link details a few incidents regarding low flying and animals/humans in several countries of Europe and North America.
Razor
This link details a few incidents regarding low flying and animals/humans in several countries of Europe and North America.
Razor
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i was reading the recommendations that came about from this incident and some of them just go to show the extreme lack of knowledge the average person has. Strobes or infra red links that aircraft could pick up while flying. Honestly the people in power should be saying dry your eyes and lets get on with the job. I understand that what happened was tragic but 1 person killed every few years by a helicopter is nothing compared to the amount killed by cars. What next, engine cut outs for cars if they get within 100' of a horse. Of course not the public know about cars so that would be silly.
The military they are all lunatics who fly everywhere with their hair on fire shouting "tally ho, bandits 9 o'clock, tipping in!" then after they have waxed their handlebar moustache its off to the bar for gin and tonics and some piano burning. The world has went health and safety crazy, somebody needs to get into power who has some bollocks and conviction about them to change things and tell all the tree huggers and do gooders to wind their necks in!!!
Phew!!!! and relax....... sorry chaps had to get that off my chest, rant over.
HG
p.s. and just as an afterthought horsie types should be made to wear massive suits of cotton wool and bubble wrap. You cant be too careful these days, what if a helicopter was too suddenly appear???? Would not want to be caught out. Then again somebody would then sue because it took so long to get the suit off that they pi**ed themselves. Emotional stress, at least a 5 figure payout!
The military they are all lunatics who fly everywhere with their hair on fire shouting "tally ho, bandits 9 o'clock, tipping in!" then after they have waxed their handlebar moustache its off to the bar for gin and tonics and some piano burning. The world has went health and safety crazy, somebody needs to get into power who has some bollocks and conviction about them to change things and tell all the tree huggers and do gooders to wind their necks in!!!
Phew!!!! and relax....... sorry chaps had to get that off my chest, rant over.
HG
p.s. and just as an afterthought horsie types should be made to wear massive suits of cotton wool and bubble wrap. You cant be too careful these days, what if a helicopter was too suddenly appear???? Would not want to be caught out. Then again somebody would then sue because it took so long to get the suit off that they pi**ed themselves. Emotional stress, at least a 5 figure payout!
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Just another nail in the UKLFS coffin. Unfortunately, the seeds have been sown and I think we will shortly lose the ability to low fly in the UK. After all, is there a requirement to low fly in this country? Where do we conduct our operational Low Flying? The deserts of the middle East? The jungles of Sierra Leone? So how does Low flying over 7T prepare us for that? Maybe we should conduct out OLF out of country. Now lets see. Where could we go that has both a desert and a jungle?
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Maybe we should conduct out OLF out of country
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Quite simply, getting helicopters overseas either takes an awfully long time or uses resources (c-17s, for example) which would be better used elsewhere.
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Not all types can operate from ships, and those that are already shipborne are usually on ops.
Carrying out training in theatre removes the whole point of training - you train to be prepared for the theatre, so you don't turn up "cold".
Carrying out training in theatre removes the whole point of training - you train to be prepared for the theatre, so you don't turn up "cold".
More to the point, perhaps, is that the track on the map has to be the one actually flown and not the planned track. Can be no element of Prevention here, just Prosecution when someone else gets hurt.
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Low flying abroad, are you mad? If the daily rags got hold of that they would have a field day.
"RAF Top Guns use training trip as excuse to get drunk in spain"
The people who campaign for these things should get put in the jump seat of a Puma/Chinnook/Merlin and let them nav all the way round a low level route for a few hours. Once they get the hang of that, try some underwires crossings, some CA,s a few CAD's, simulated contacts, EW, ToT, a few fast jets to mix it up a bit to and to top it all we could try it in the dark later on.
Might just get these do gooder, hippy tree huggers to appreciate that its a skill that fades very quickly. Its a fact WE NEED TO DO LOW FLYING!!!! End of story.
"RAF Top Guns use training trip as excuse to get drunk in spain"
The people who campaign for these things should get put in the jump seat of a Puma/Chinnook/Merlin and let them nav all the way round a low level route for a few hours. Once they get the hang of that, try some underwires crossings, some CA,s a few CAD's, simulated contacts, EW, ToT, a few fast jets to mix it up a bit to and to top it all we could try it in the dark later on.
Might just get these do gooder, hippy tree huggers to appreciate that its a skill that fades very quickly. Its a fact WE NEED TO DO LOW FLYING!!!! End of story.
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Heard a stat today that puts this whole saga into perspective. Apparently nearly 100 horse riders are involved in an RTA on British roads each year. No I can't back up this quote with evidence but I bet that the actual figure is a damn sight more than the one person killed by military low flying. Do we ban traffic on the roads (or horses?).
This 'zero-risk' culture we live in now really does pi** me off...
This 'zero-risk' culture we live in now really does pi** me off...
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Crossbow, I appreciate you are only on Proone to cause fights, but didn't you read the post above yours?
And I guess 'why in the UK' because it's far more expensive to do it abroad.
The lack of free airspace in the UK is getting worse as the urban sprawl takes over the countryside, but as long as aircraft need to fly at low level operationally, we will have to balance the needs of training against the effects of doing it at home, and the costs of doing it abroad.
And I guess 'why in the UK' because it's far more expensive to do it abroad.
The lack of free airspace in the UK is getting worse as the urban sprawl takes over the countryside, but as long as aircraft need to fly at low level operationally, we will have to balance the needs of training against the effects of doing it at home, and the costs of doing it abroad.
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Im just playing devils advocate. Guys, the UKLFS is under serious threat and I'd bet that within 18 months it no longer exists. So, what is to be done? Now I like to low fly as much as the next fella BUT if I want to low fly in the future I will have to go abroad to do it. So, will someone please please justify the need for a UKLFS.
So far all of your arguments fall down very quickly.
all of which can be conducted outside of the UK.
So far all of your arguments fall down very quickly.
try some underwires crossings, some CA,s a few CAD's, simulated contacts, EW, ToT, a few fast jets to mix it up a bit to and to top it all we could try it in the dark later on.
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So we export it all to someone elses backyard huh! Not only the cost of getting there but have to pay for use of whatever area as well. Seems to me that we expend vast amounts of money just to alleviate a small risk of injury. Still, thats what the H and S culture has brought about and the end result is every last one of us pays the extra premiums. Are a majority of taxpayers in the country going to cough up the extra dough that would be required to conduct this training overseas? If so then no probs but I suspect that if the bill were quantified and put into the equation of the next enquiry of whatever nature then the outcome might be different. IMHO.
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hyd3failure,
I don't know where you got your 'irresponsible Chinook flying' quote from, but it's f'ing out of line. It was proven in court that the crew to which you are clearly referring, were operating within their auth and within the rules of the UKLFS. I suggest you amend your post because you are wrong and it is exactly that sort of thing that opponents of the UKLFS will seize upon.
crossbow,
In the RW world low flying training is achieved on the back of real tasks. If we have to shift a load of troops from some training area to their barracks, it will probably be done at low level for the training benefit. We do not just wake up and think "What shall we do today? I know, let's fling an empty helo around the country at 50ft, pissing people off, for a bit of a giggle". Do you suggest that all such tasks should be carried out at medium level or IFR and then we should separately go overseas to carry out some LL trg, because it won't happen. Apart from the money issue raised, there simply isn't enough time in the program or ac availability to carry out UK tasking, operational dets and then add in major training dets. How easy do you think it is to get a Chinook to Canada or Australia? Do you think that Germany would happily accept all of a foreign nation's LL Trg to be carried out in their backyard, or any other European nation?
If UK low flying training ceases, more aircrew and their passengers will be killed when low flying is a necessity.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. The Government and many of the population want something for nothing in terms of defence: minimise training, minimise spending, maximise Operations. Nobody seems to have a clue of the effort that goes into minimising disturbance (ie LFAAs, transit areas, hospital avoids, industrial avoids, other avoids, restricted areas, prohibited areas, PMPAs, NOTAMs, local area avoids, hotspots, other stations' local area avoids, and weaving at low level so not to directly overfly individual buildings, etc etc). Any Health and Safety rep, horsey type, treehugger or pprune stirrer should try a few hours of NVG low level before they comment on how we should train. If they still do get the point then f*ckit, let's swap places. They can defend the nation while I mince round Islington, Guardian in one hand, bubbly in the other, crying about rural aircraft noise.
Stout
Blood pressure. Hot. Sweats on. 'You wouldn't like me when I'm angry' Hulk type moment. Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh.
I don't know where you got your 'irresponsible Chinook flying' quote from, but it's f'ing out of line. It was proven in court that the crew to which you are clearly referring, were operating within their auth and within the rules of the UKLFS. I suggest you amend your post because you are wrong and it is exactly that sort of thing that opponents of the UKLFS will seize upon.
crossbow,
In the RW world low flying training is achieved on the back of real tasks. If we have to shift a load of troops from some training area to their barracks, it will probably be done at low level for the training benefit. We do not just wake up and think "What shall we do today? I know, let's fling an empty helo around the country at 50ft, pissing people off, for a bit of a giggle". Do you suggest that all such tasks should be carried out at medium level or IFR and then we should separately go overseas to carry out some LL trg, because it won't happen. Apart from the money issue raised, there simply isn't enough time in the program or ac availability to carry out UK tasking, operational dets and then add in major training dets. How easy do you think it is to get a Chinook to Canada or Australia? Do you think that Germany would happily accept all of a foreign nation's LL Trg to be carried out in their backyard, or any other European nation?
If UK low flying training ceases, more aircrew and their passengers will be killed when low flying is a necessity.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. The Government and many of the population want something for nothing in terms of defence: minimise training, minimise spending, maximise Operations. Nobody seems to have a clue of the effort that goes into minimising disturbance (ie LFAAs, transit areas, hospital avoids, industrial avoids, other avoids, restricted areas, prohibited areas, PMPAs, NOTAMs, local area avoids, hotspots, other stations' local area avoids, and weaving at low level so not to directly overfly individual buildings, etc etc). Any Health and Safety rep, horsey type, treehugger or pprune stirrer should try a few hours of NVG low level before they comment on how we should train. If they still do get the point then f*ckit, let's swap places. They can defend the nation while I mince round Islington, Guardian in one hand, bubbly in the other, crying about rural aircraft noise.
Stout
Blood pressure. Hot. Sweats on. 'You wouldn't like me when I'm angry' Hulk type moment. Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh.
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OK hyds, I don't quite get you. Are you just being sarcastic and playing Devil's Advocate like some others on this thread, or should we take what you write as representing your opinion (as is traditional in debate and conversation)?
If, as your profile states, your current aircraft type is 'rotary and fast' and if I assume correctly that you are military (because you wouldn't presume to speculate on military regulations if you weren't, would you?), then you know damn well that low flying with military passengers on board is normal and is not illegal.
If, as your profile states, your current aircraft type is 'rotary and fast' and if I assume correctly that you are military (because you wouldn't presume to speculate on military regulations if you weren't, would you?), then you know damn well that low flying with military passengers on board is normal and is not illegal.
JOURNO/TW*T ALERT!
HYD3 IS NOT A PILOT
Hyd3, If you knew anything about military helicopter flying you would know what you have typed is bollix. I have flown pax at LL in Chinooks on training sorties in the UK... PERIOD!
Hyd3, If you knew anything about military helicopter flying you would know what you have typed is bollix. I have flown pax at LL in Chinooks on training sorties in the UK... PERIOD!
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For those who say we should only low fly abroad: Would you please state which countries are going to allow us to export all our low flying there?? If you are thinking Canada - then get real. Besides the cost - (and yes JHC are broke - not sure about strike) To complete enough low flying to remain proficient would mean that we would have to deploy about once a month for a couple of weeks. Those of us who are actually in the military currently believe that we may spend enough time away from our long-suffereing families as it is - without popping across the atlantic for half the year. Nowhere in Europe will be happy with us - just as we wouldn't be happy if the French/Dutch/Germans/Norgies etc decided to bring all thier low flying to the UK.
I sometime cannot believe the bollox I read on here sometimes.
LC
I sometime cannot believe the bollox I read on here sometimes.
LC
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Trg Risky
Looks like between us we vanquished hyds3. His crappy posts have been deleted. I guess this chiseller will reappear under a new alias in no time at all.
Moral of the story, (journos, spotters, nutters, fitters at Westland helicopter who know less than they think they do about piloting, take note), if you're pretending to be someone you're not on this forum then you're punching above your weight, and you will get busted, so poke off.
BTW, TR, I know your name (in a dodgy Irish accent), and you may know mine.
Stout
Moral of the story, (journos, spotters, nutters, fitters at Westland helicopter who know less than they think they do about piloting, take note), if you're pretending to be someone you're not on this forum then you're punching above your weight, and you will get busted, so poke off.
BTW, TR, I know your name (in a dodgy Irish accent), and you may know mine.
Stout