Peanuts to a peanut?

[cheklapsap]

Is it true someone threw peanuts at that peanut of a CEO, Turdball?
If so, whilst I disagree with any form of violence, one must wonder just how far morale has fallen in this company for it to happen.
Endemic within this company is contempt for the cockpit AND cabin crew from the management, and reciprocal hatred from certainly the cockpit crew, back to the management.
Where will all this end? Let's hope nothing gets broken but a few monstrous egos?

[Übersturmfuhrer]

True. What p-eye-ssed him off was that the dozen or so aircrew present at the time cheered when it happened. He then threw his dummy in the mud and said something to the perp. to the effect that he would be fired. Apparently he has carried through on his threat.

[Fatbastard]

Should've thrown something larger, denser, and thrown it harder!

[RYNCLEE]

Was the "perp" cockpit crew?

[E-whale]

Kinda remined me of event's years past in the States.
During a strike against a major US airline owned by Frank Lorenzo the pilots shot at each other and bombed each others homes. Several went to jail.
I always wondered why if they were willing to commit crimes to advance the cause why didn't they just assinate Lorenzo. Killing him would have been a simple way to put an end to the matter.
But I guess that's only for the really dedicated guys.

[Checkmate]

Loosing ones job is a personal and family disaster, as any 89 er will tell you. However the 89 er's lost there jobs standing
together. This particular Australian was kicked out of the AOA for flagrant breaches of CC, and now finds himself standing
alone. I sincerely hope that he has not lost his job, and returns suitably chastened. You reap what you sow in life!

[thepenguin]

E-Whale, you are clearly an twisted and misinformed person. But then...that's why you are an American working at CX now isn't it?

[Turtlenest]

EWhale, they didn't have to 'assinate' Lorenzo because he was already the biggest assh#%e on the planet. 27 suicides and no one took him out. I don't undertand it either. Rumor heard from an Atlas Captain was that Lorenzo is looking to buy them.

[electricjetjock]

If the "Urban Legend" is correct the perpretrator should have been a little wiser. Especially as our contract has a clause of summary dismissal for "gross insubordination".

Thought I had left all of that behind in the military. Perhaps the company should take another note out of the military. In that the Captain of one of "Her Majesty's" ships would never enter the wardroom without an invite and would certainly withdraw himself from the bar if he thought there was any chance of a "junior" Officer creating a scene. Thus preventing a serious incident and the need for a charge of "Gross Insubordination".

But there again those people are "leaders" and have other peoples well being foremost in their minds, as well as running the "ship" and making "hard" decisions.

"Billy no mates" comes to mind, having to frequent the "Ikea Gay bar"!! "These people are more to be pitied than scolded".

------------------
Keep smiling!!!!

[E-whale]

Oh penguin........you say I am misinformed? Explain please. I believe my stated facts are correct, there were several crimes committed by pilots directed at each other.

[Edmund Spencer]

Word on the street has it that there were two captains and one FO involved.

Should make the roster even more challenging if that is possible!

ES

------------------
Sleep after toil,
Port after stormy seas,
Ease after war,
Death after life does greatly please.

[indeepsht]

Groundflap,

That's a very good suggestion to take our R and R time and money to a different establishment!

I don't understand why people are content to drink in that Sh*thole anyway's!

It's just full of.... Ah forget it, it's not worth my breath!!

I'll definitly be taking my business elseware for now on.

[Midnight Rambler]

When you lose your sense of humour you've lost everything. DT has.

[Übersturmfuhrer]

Goround...Great idea, I have been doing it for years (drinking elsewhere that is).

[Kubota]

Now in the good ole' U S of A there would be industrial action by his colleagues until the gentleman involved was reinstated. AOA?...

[indeepsht]

My understanding is that the individual in question was recently suspended from the association for failing to comply with his contract?

I don't know about you but as far as I'm concerned if you're not IN you're OUT and the association has better things to do with it's time than represent none members!!

Just my view, correct me if I'm wrong...

[Midnight Rambler]

It's not support for the individual that is the point in this case, it's support for the principle that you cannot just decide on a whim to end a person's career for something as piffling as this when there are numerous other intermediate steps to follow. If this is allowed to happen then we are all vulnerable and it doesn't matter whether or not there is a union.

The "big" approach would be to support reinstatement and deal with the individual's status vis-a-vis the association at a later stage. I'm sure there will have been ample opportunity for reflection on his part by the time this is over.

[jagman]

Surely - you are either a member of the AOA or not. If, for your own selfish motives, you decide NOT to be a member (or it's decided for you), then you can hardly have a rethink now.
I agree - if you're out - you're out.
Good riddance but, at the same time, good luck because the whole thing is a monstrously out of proportion reaction to an 'accident'.
IE - get a good lawyer.

[Checkmate]

The man in question is indeed suspended from the AOA for breaking contract compliance, and is receiving "advice" from the
union. To stand arms folded, and watch while his whole life and career are destroyed, places you one rung lower on the ladder
of humanity. Perhaps if he keeps his job, he will see the light and pay a hefty fine, prior to becoming a full and active member of
the AOA. If I am wrong and he returns to his old and selfish ways, I am sure his colleagues will make him wish he'd been
sacked.

[bigblackdog]

Jagman is on the money. Checkmate….what are you thinking?? Here is a guy who has pointed his bottom at the rest of the AOA membership and doesn’t deserve any help at all.
If he has done something to invoke the wrath of our illustrious leaders and is punished, there is a grievance and discipline procedure we all fall under and he may represent himself, by himself. If he is unhappy with the out come, he may take legal action, by himself at his own expense. This guy has a full range of options at his disposal so don’t pity him.
OR if he had supported the AOA when they needed his help, this all would have been organised for him with the benefit of their industrial expertise and the support of the entire membership. You make your bed, you lie in it.

[BOLTER]

I wonder if D.T himself or any management for that matter has taken the time to consider what (besides a few beers) would drive someone to such lengths. The ill feeling is endemic in the company and this should be seen as yet another wake up call that all is not well in the pilot ranks of Cathay Pacific.

[Midnight Rambler]

The whole of life is a series of lessons. You either learn them or you have to redo the course over and over again until you do. This is not going to go away because we do nothing. It will return to haunt us all if we stand back, as checkmate says, arms folded and watch a fellow professional go down because some power-hungry, arrogant office wallah takes it into his head to sack him over loss of face.

I say again, it is not the individual that concerns me - he has made the causes and should pay a price, but the price is way too high. There is a principle here and we ignore that at our collective peril.

[Taxsman]

In another life, a common sore point with the union was that the union always got the idiots' job back whether they were members or not. As the recognized bargaining agent, the union had to do it . We sometimes shook our collective heads and wondered why we spent good money defending non-members, but then some 'good guys' would get fired and we were glad we had the power to get their jobs back. The AOA needs to become a union. and represent the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[Neutral Stability]

Just as a matter of interest, was DT in the pub playing a game of Bingo that I see is now available every evening for us all! If so, who was delegated to explain to him how the game actually worked. Perhaps he was so frustrated with his own lack of understanding of the rules of the game that he just lost his rag and the peanuts were just the final straw!

[Panza]

It amazes me.... A few years ago a manager threatens a F/O with a beer bottle and NOTHING happens to him.....But one peanut can get you fired.

------------------
" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "

[jagman]

Good point Panza. If you threaten someone JUNIOR to you that's OK. If you do something a lot less aggressive to someone SENIOR watch out.
Was DT sober? What time was it? Any witnesses? Is it just DT against the 'thrower'?
Why can't it be said that it was an unfortunate 'accident'?
Take it to court - DT won't want to see his name in the SCMP "sitting in a bar late at night chatting to his pet hostey when one of the grossly overpaid pilots drops a bag of peanuts on him - an offence for which the said pilot was subsequently fired..."
Makes him look like a bit of a prat too.
Come on Ken - you can't agree with this can you??
Sorry - course you can - just keep quiet and say yessir boss.....

[BUSDRVR]

Ms. Parsons should love this story to put in the next SCMP Lai See. In fact, looks like the post above has already written the piece for her.

The Beatings will stop when the morale improves!

[ess jay]

The peanut man is a bit of a fool for throwing anything at your boss!! Thinking back to earlier times, some of my bosses were down right idiots, but I would never become an idiot like him and throw a peanut at him. Jees guys, this is not about AOA and contracts, if I was the boss and an employee threw a peanut at me, I would P*SS him off, and then find out why he did it.
Lets emagine a S/O throwing a peanut at a Captain in a bar, are you going to let it be? Or are you going to nail the SOB for being an A-hole?
Good bye Mr CAPT. Enjoy your pathetic Millions that you have earnt and sacrificed lifestyle for over the last 10-20 yrs and enjo your miserable retirement.I hope Cx was worth it!

[This message has been edited by ess jay (edited 06 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ess jay (edited 06 April 2001).]

[18weeler]

Just think everyone! What does the company want the aoa to do in this situation?
Hang him out to dry right? Alienate him, let him fend for himself. The company would love to see that, so lets not let it happen.
Whatever this individual deserves he will get sooner or later!
Let's not let the company drive another divisive nail into our 1500 person coffin!!
Think about this!!!

[bigblackdog]

SJ, you started out so well, objective, concise, just how they taught you on your office typing course and you had to end it with mindless ranting and raving. Definite management potential I’d say. If only you could develop an allergic reaction to airborne bar savouries you’d be in line for the top job....you little Office Johnny Nancy boy. (How was that ending?)

[Iago]

Shame they don't serve hand grenades as bar snacks.

[busbuoy]

The guy is a good operator and a nice bloke. His compliance transgression was done in a moment of weakness under pressure from his family. He knew he'd screwed up as soon as he did it and dobbed himself in to the AOA. No excuse but there are some mitigating circumstances.

His bar transgression was done in an area that is somewhat of a crew haven for relaxation in a probably semi-intoxicated state after the announcement of a dubious profit-sharing result in a year of record profits in the run-up to the third tranche of pay-cuts (which were ceded in return for negotiations into which the company still steadfastly refuses to enter in any semblance of good faith almost 2 years later) against the individual who is probably most responsible for all of the above. Again, no excuses but.... I think the punishment far exceeds the crime and is sadly a reflection of the weakness of character of the individuals involved.

We should be standing up against this as a workforce regardless of AOA position. Sadly I suspect that even if the guy was a stauch AOA member and was clearly being stitched up, we wouldn't have the collective moral fortitude to take a stand.
There are too many vested separate interests.

[jagman]

Does Hong Kong have any 'unfair dismisal' clauses in contract law. This is (again) a huge over-reaction when a stiff bollocking from his fleet boss would be enough if, as I've said, he can't plead that it was an accident.

[Thrust]

I don't know what the unfair dismissal laws are in HK if indeed we have any. (I suspect we don't) Our Union Sec will know. Don't forget that this farce is still under the D&G and that you can't be sacked straight away while on sick leave.

If this officer does get sacked in the end then we should all show some guts and tell DT this is wrong. The punishment far outweighs the crime and it's time giant ego's took a back seat.

If this has no effect, and I suspect with the egotistical maniac involved it won't, this matter should be broadcast all over HK via the newspapers so that the shareholders know what sort of person leads the company. It's time people asked these questions; What was behind the incident and what was this manager doing in the bar at that time of night. Doesn't he have work to do the next day? Sorry, but it's not acceptable for the senior person concerned to act in the manner he has all thing's considered.

Hand grenades are a bit over the top.... rocks will do.


[This message has been edited by Thrust (edited 10 April 2001).]

[New China Driver]

Dirty washing for all to see:

http://hongkong.scmp.com/ZZZOQKKY4LC.html

[BUSDRVR]

Pilot accused of throwing nuts sacked


EXCLUSIVE by ADAM LUCK

Next Story



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



David Turnbull: controversial

A senior Cathay Pacific pilot was sacked after allegedly throwing nuts at the company's chief executive in a bar.
Captain Scott Munro was dismissed following a disciplinary hearing just days after David Turnbull, also Cathay Pacific's deputy chairman, accused him of showering him with nuts.

The incident is believed to have happened at the Dakota bar in Cathay's private Headland Hotel, close to Chek Lap Kok airport, late last month.

Captain Munro was seated at a table in the bar with several colleagues when the confrontation occurred, according to airline sources.

One industry insider, who preferred to remain anonymous, said: "Turnbull came in and was sitting at another table. Munro threw some monkey nuts up in the air and some landed close to Turnbull.

"Turnbull came over to the table and demanded to know the names of the men at the table to find out who had thrown them," the insider said.

After the alleged confrontation, Captain Munro was brought before a disciplinary hearing and sacked last week.

The incident has provoked widespread controversy within the company and has been the subject of intense debate on independent Web sites used by airline staff.

Mr Turnbull told the South China Morning Post: "He [Captain Munro] was dismissed for throwing things at me. We have to operate a disciplined company and you do not throw things at the chief executive."

Captain Munro, who is in his 40s, is understood to have returned to his home in Australia and is believed to be considering launching an appeal against his sacking.

Cathay's conditions of service are understood to state that employment can be terminated if an officer is found guilty of any conduct, on or off duty, which is prejudicial to the interests, good name and reputation of the airline.

Mr Turnbull has been a figure of controversy within the airline since instigating mass cutbacks in 1998 and becoming locked in a series of staff disputes.

Aircrew posting online messages were divided over the decision to dismiss Captain Munro.

One e-mailer to the aircrew Web site wrote: "Is it true someone threw peanuts at Turnbull? If so, whilst I disagree with any form of violence, one must wonder just how far morale has fallen in this company for it to happen. Where will it all end? Let's hope nothing gets broken but a few monstrous egos."

Another e-mailer wrote: "The perpetrator should have been a little wiser, especially as our contract has a clause of summary dismissal for gross insubordination."

Cathay Pacific confirmed that Captain Munro had not yet lodged an appeal.

Mr Turnbull said of the pilot's behaviour: "He's the captain of the ship. It's not what you expect of him . . . If cabin crew did that to a passenger they would be dismissed."

Alan Wong, Cathay's corporate communications general manager, said: "This is a strictly internal matter between an employee and his company.

"Like any large organisation, we have disciplinary procedures which, as in this case, have been fully above board and in line with established guidelines."

Hong Kong Aircrew Officers' Association general secretary John Findlay refused to comment.

My 2 cents worth,

1. I thought Tung was the Chief executive?

2. to all the south stand offenders at sevens last week does throwing beer, blow up sheep, and the lot create the opportunity to get you the sack?

[IndianaJones]

A slightly different version hit the news wires in North America this evening.

[9Victor]

Were there more of these incidents recently?
Is that why Cx is short of tech crew now and about to slash a number of flights, due to crew shortage?

[thewwIIace]

gees, he got off really lightly, the ex cheif exec at BA, Ailing Bob, another popular character had to carry his bags with him or under another name after he found someone and dumped in his and his wife suitcase when they went to barbados on holiday. a week later a stewardess slapped him in the face after degrading her life then immediately resigned feeling happy.

[had it]

If he acted like a responsible Executive and spent more time thinking about the people under him rather than the bottom line, then his employees wouldn't feel the need to throw things at him.
His actions are like those of a playground bully, when faced with a situation that he cannot handle he hides behind his power base and fires the individual.
What about ignoring the situation and showing some class.? Just leave the bar with his dignity intact. A true leader would have resolved the issue by discussion not by abuse of power. Stupid me ! what was I thinking, he is an accountant in a position of authority , not a leader....... That's why we are in the situation that we presently find ourselves

[lhasa apso]

as far as the AOA involvement is concerned in this issue, my feeling is this. If your a member then the AOA should go to bat for you. However If you have been dismissed from the union for whatever reason then the AOA shouldn't even acknowledge your situation. It may very well make those who think that they can live without the AOA think again. It will re-enforce the unions position and get more people on side. I feel sorry for the individual concerned, but he was not a union member and therefore does not deserve the AOA's help
It may serve as a lesson to everyone how important it is right now to be an active part of the union

[Flap 5]

So gross unfairness is okay if you are not part of the union is it?

[Anti Skid On]

Any truth that these are the new executive facilities at CX? http://www.dopey.net/outhouse.htm

[HUSTLER]

Ilasa apso,
I think your comment is very narrow minded!
As a union member I agree with his AOA suspension, as a fellow pilot & employee of CX I deplore the heavy handed treatment given to him by management. His AOA membership is not the issue!!!,c'mon give the guy a break, are we going to sit back and pretend this did'nt happen ? Is it OK for the bottler to get away with it and not this guy.
Ive got to stop, im getting p!ssed off!

[This message has been edited by HUSTLER (edited 11 April 2001).]

[BusyB]

Hustler, I hear what your saying. However he's blown the AOA out so you're right, If we want to help him its up to us, not the AOA, to support him. What do you suggest?

[Oilhead]

How very silly of both of them.

They should both sort this out quietly behind closed doors. This has to be the daftest thing I have read in a long time.

I question the judgements of both individuals, but most especially the CEO. Twit.

[electricjetjock]

Now that it is out in the open so to speak I think the Captain involved should now take this very personally and sue the ass off the individual who instigated the proceedings as a personal law suit, as well as one against the company.
The AOA should assist the individual as the punishment far outweighs the crime. A GOOD and WISE leader would have had a sense of humour. If the peanuts had landed close to him as described or if it was more "deliberate" a private "bo***cking" and a loss of seniority. A message could then have been sent to the AOA and all crew that the line is getting close to being crossed.
We would then have "some" respect for our CEO. All we have now is greater contempt for a very sad individual - he is becoming a real PARIAH. Lets hope it is a Pyrrhic victory and the board of Swires finally wake up and remove this cancer from our midst, "a controversy too far" from a controversial figure.

[lhasa apso]

Hustler,& Flap 5
I never intended to convey that what had occurred was acceptable nor do I consider it to be acceptable behavior from a CEO of a company. The point that I was trying to get across was that the individual concerned had been removed from the union for a transgression and therefore it would be very difficult for the union to become involved, nor do I feel that they should do so. For the union to confront the company over this issue when the person concerned is not even a member dilutes the AOA's position with the company.
I agree with you that something needs to be done , but it must be something outside the parameters of the AOA, in other words organised by the crews themselves.
The whole handling of this affair is disgusting, so if you have any suggestions I'm prepared to listen, but I feel very strongly that the AOA should remain impartial in this issue which was the original intent of my first post.


[This message has been edited by lhasa apso (edited 12 April 2001).]

[cheklapsap]

The AOA cannot and should not, get involved in this one. For a start the Committee does not have the resources to waste on a non member. And, as has been stated, AOA involvement would dilute the reasons for membership if it means you don't really have to be a member to be represented.
However, that is not to say that this punishment should go without reaction from the pilot body. Any ideas?
How about an extra hour's fuel per sector? Anything that costs turdball money would surely be effective?
The ultimate irony in this whole business is that "they" have sacked one of "their own". After all, wasn't he suspended from the union for helping them out on G days?

[Wun Hung Lo]

I remember a few years ago a chinaman was not punished for placing the lives of a bar full of people in danger by imprisoning them against their will. Cathy's lilly livered management took his side. SURPRISE SURPRISE.

[Oilhead]

Rule One Day One of flying for an airline.

Stay out of bars that management hang out in.. Trouble is sure to come your way. Sooner or later.

You can't be both!

[Sweet FA]

When I first read about this in the SCMP I thought...what a waste of peanuts.

Surely there is something less valuable sitting around which could have been used instead on this Turdbull.

Sweet FA...eating peanuts at the Dakota has a whole new meaning

[DirtyDawg]

Confucious say:

"He who shares a bar with CEO is likely to get his nuts kicked"

If Capt M can get the sack for this, what makes any of you think we are any less succeptible to this reactive and highly emotional counter measure?

-Weigh up a few peanuts and 20 years
-loyalty. Demotion or suspension as opposed to the sack.
-Location of the incident being a place where alcohol is served and obviously consumed in this instance.

I'm not a peanut thrower but this incident doesn't make me feel secure in CX where you can be terminated so easily and with a blatant lack of support.


Woof Woof Woof

[Herb]

Strange but true!
A well known CEO of a large,successful airline with some of the most motivated staff in the world wrote a book a while back.
Yes, you guessed it,the book is called "NUTS".

checkout this :-
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Gulf/7624/

:)
[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 15 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Herb (edited 16 April 2001).]

[cheklapsap]

Herb, (is that Kelleher? - sorry about the spelling),
You posted this on Rumours but not here?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1271000/1271579.stm
It's another example of how this thing has snowballed out of control through the stupidity and weaknesses of our so-called leaders here in CX.
I guess since they didn't sack the "Swire Bottler" or "Swire Knifer" they won't get rid of the "Swire Nutter" either? Pity, he's an embarrassment to CX and to Swire.

[slj]

Herb Kellerher is retiring shortly.

I suggest that Swire hire him to coach Turnbull in the finer art of management.

Can you imagine the effect such coaching would have on Cathay and its performance. It is already regarded by passengers as one of the best airlines in the world.

If Herb Kellerher could get the management and operating staff to work together in harmony it could create a fantastic happy and even more profitable organisation.

Certainly Turnbull should read the book NUTS by Kevin and Jackie Frieberg. He would just learn a thing or two about developing a positive culture in the organisation.

The whole episode is one which the Swire group will regret as it really shows them as being a petulant, imature organisation, to the whole world.

Good luck to you all at Cathay