Wake-Up

[BusAce]

All this talk about "lets do it" ... "unite"..."Sick-outs" ought to stop right now. Does any one who posted such remarks actually know what its like to be unemployed? Or even... know whether he or she would be able to get a job else where? Or how much pay he or she might get... Wake up and be grateful that you have the best jobs in the world with the best pay and conditions. STOP NAGGING remember 1989 down under.

[lhasa apso]

It's exactly this kind of attitude that has allowed our conditions to deteriorate to the state that we presently find them. If we had taken a firm stance a long time ago, we would not be in this sorry mess today.
This used to be one of the best jobs in the world, that is no longer true. So either you are management, or incredibly naive. Sometimes you have to fight to keep what you believe in.
You keep harping back to 89 down under, the conditions are not the same, but this management is banking that there are enough people with your attitude to keep a core operation going no matter what, and therein lies our major problem. Let me ask you, did you find something else after your dispute? obviously or you wouldn't be posting. Personally I'm at the stage where I don't care any more if I have a job or not. This one ain't what it used to be.

[nudger]

A**HOLE!

[jumpseat]

I have to agree with you Ace.
Next time they try to cut my pay by 30% I'll remind myself to stop nagging.
Next time they bring in a system of no credit for work that takes me away from my family, I'll tell myself to stop nagging.
Next time they bring in a cheap cargo operation that undermines the careers of pilots that have upsticks and settled in HK on the basis of an offer that's not honoured, I'll remind myself to stop nagging.
Next time a senior company director insults me and my colleagues in public, I'll remember to stop nagging.
Next time.......
Well thought out post Ace, Merry Xmas.

J/s

PS tell me when it's ok to start nagging.

[Thrust]

"Best jobs in the world with the best pay and conditions" ......BusAce (which I doubt) are we talking about the same airline? Shouldn't you be in the North American forum?
I take it this must be your first real job besides your first real post. Don't be scared of returning to where you have crawled from because that won't happen. You now work for a "top shelf airline" (almost) so forget your past. If you want to remain on the top shelf and get back to where we USED to be we need to stick together.

My first thought was to agree with nudger's comment but I guess anyone is able to make a mistake. You need to listen more to those that have been around a while and see through the company propaganda.

While being charitable, it's really sad what you have posted. If you are one of us and a CX pilot it's shocking what you write. Most of us won't bend over any more. You may find yourself in the despised minority if not careful.

I posted "lets do it" and I do know what it is to be unemployed. I won't be again and these bullies that we call management won't have the balls to make me!

Show some guts.




[This message has been edited by Thrust (edited 23 December 2000).]

[conan]

Sounds like a management wind up to me. can't be Nick he has a better command of the english language than that. TT comes to mind!!!!!!

[BusAce]

As anticipated, no constructive remarks were posted in reply to the original message. Instead, Nudger found A.. opening in his fellow nagger’s arguments. Ihasa apso, if you don’t mind whether you’re employed or not, then please leave so we can all have a happy life. Obviously you made enough money before the dispute. Jumpseat, don’t worry I will let you know, you posted valid arguments but “Principle” does not merit depriving your family of a good wage. Thrust, you forget that we are still bent over, after the ASL slap on our “Union’s” face. ASL still exists under a different name (CXF). Conan, well wot can one say.. judging from yoor reply to another topic, yoo ought to be an English teecher.. Wasted talent. Do you know what “getalife” mean?
Gentlemen, the original message is aimed at reminding you that history clearly demonstrates the failure of rash decisions taken by any “union”. So be professional, do your jobs well until redundancies are posted, which will happen in your lifetime.

[drag]

Bus Ace ,

One question what is your nationality ? I'm really interested.

[BusAce]

Drag... Read the original message
Good luck

[billybob]

Dear BusAss,
PRINCIPLE does not merit losing a good wage!!?? PRINCIPLE had afair amount of merit in such small conflicts as WWII, the blacks right to equality, justice and the vote, and oh yes!! The British coalmines.... remember those; that little puppy, amongst others, was a large cause in the forming of unions in the first place. I never used to be a "unionist" until I joined the commercial airline industry and the education was quick to be sure. You see I'm one of those silly folk who actually cares about how buddy is doing, if he gets the shaft, if he's told the truth, if he needs a hand now and again.
Personally I've had a great roster as a based type over the last couple of years, but I'll drop the gloves this instant if it means that the rest of the boys in HK get a fair and livable roster because they deserve one!! Yep, I could go screaming about my cut in pay such that crew junior to me in seniority and living in the same city as I are getting 17 to 19% more than me. Yet I will gladly let the AOA have at it on rostering with the company even if it meant risking more bullying and job threats when the roster is fine for me. Why? Cause I care about buddy..... and YOU buddy sure do not!!
I'm not sure what your personal history was during the war that was fought down under in 89. War is not guaranteed with victory, but if you talk to the boys at United, Northwest, Lufthansa and others I'd think you'd find that your view is in the minority.
This may come as a shock BusAce but money is not everything!! I know a huge number of families and individuals who enjoy life each and every day who earn a whole lot less than you!!
The management, though, believes just like you do..... that people, and their principles, can be bought!! That we are financial whores who will back anything as long as it means more money, especially in THEIR pockets.
PRINCIPLES ....... yes they DO mean something.
Billy

[nudger]

Hats off to ya Billy!

[great southern land]

.....once again I weep for my fellow countrymen.... The arguement can be distilled down to one simple fact: do you think that the pilots of United just won a 40% pay increase (744 Captain on an average salary of $400000 USD/year....and never mind the pension benefits) because the management thought they were a bunch of great guys...? No, they acheived it because they held the feet of management to the fire.....and they ALL (yes, even their C & T personnel) remained a united group until they achieved their aim. An Aussie mate recently joined management (BK), and I have to ask myself......didn't he just join the very group who pushed through a paycut that also affected him....?? What madness is that? Gentlemen, we are all aboard the Titanic.....and we are worrying about what suit to wear for tonights ball, as the lower decks are filling with water..... Wake Up indeed...!!! Keep up the pressure of CC......and the operation will collapse. It is only through a complete collapse of this airlines function, that we will see this management discredited and then swept out. WITHOUT THAT HAPPENING, WE WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER YEAR AFTER YEAR WITH THIS HOLLOWING OUT OF OUR CAREERS, AND SUFFERING FROM THESE UNLIVABLE ROSTERS. Don't give up the good fight now. They have 12 new aircraft coming next year......and they can't even crew the ones they have now. The writing is on the wall for this lot. Make sure we see this through to it's final act.

[Wun Hung Lo]

Seven years on! Ho Hum!!!!

[man in black]

Great southern land has it right. (1) The only meaningful theory of compensation is "minimum retention". Mgmt pays only what it needs to offer to retain staff. Got nothing to do with merit or fairness. (2) (at the risk of sounding like another coffee table military strategist...apologies) negotiation takes it basis from war - strike with maximum force when/where your opponent is weakest. For a (sympathetic) outsider to CX, this would mean with all staff (cockpit crew, FA, et. al.) and when the new aircraft are in service over a peak holiday period. You'all remember what the Company itself did during the slowdown in '97 and '98!

[fodder]

Man in black, & Great southern land,

Whilst I laud your posts, the problem that we are faced with here is the likes of Bus Ace, and many others from that great southern land, who will not stand up and be counted when the time comes.
They will accept decaying conditions of service so long as they can pay the rent and put food on the table.
It's a bit akin comparing this situation to an invasion of Aust by hostile forces, these people Bus ace, etc. would give up Sydney Melbourne Brisbane and Perth without a fight because they are worried that there may not be anything left at the end of it. The justification they'd use is "no worries mate" we will still have the desert and the Northern Territories. It's not as good but it is better than nothing. Sadly they cannot see how short sighted this view point is. Sometimes you have to fight for that which is rightfully yours no matter how unpleasant it may be.
Management will only pay you what they think they can get away with, when the cost of a particular course of action becomes too expensive, then and only then ,will something change. It's not personal it's business.
We keep taking it personally, which is the wrong thing to do. Do not get angry get even! Sometimes a conventional confrontation doesn't always work best. Ho Chi Min took on the might of the USA and beat them. He didn't do it by confronting them head on, the victory was achieved by finding the weakness and exploiting it. Sure it takes longer but the end result is the same.

[jumpseat]

That last paragraph says it all..well put fodder, I couldn't agree more. Perhaps "No Wei" should be replaced by "don't get mad, get even"

[MaxHeadroom]

This is a total aside yet some relevance may be found in the unity aspect and the issue of unity. First I would like to say the US did not lose to Ho Chei Min because of his tactics. It was because the people of the US united together in massive protests about the killings of our men in Vietnam for nothing. Plus the deaths of four innocent young people at Kent State. We united as a people and put pressure on the Congress, our Senators and President to get the hell out of there, and so they did. The Australians would never reach such a national goal. They have no concern. After having lived there I can agree that they would give up their major cities in an invasion. It is endemic to the people of that country.
The unity of people in this country is why the blacks do have their right to vote/own land and be counted on the census. Women have the right to vote and hold jobs that were once closed to them. It is unity of a majority that can get something to happen for the better. Not being in CX but having read this forum with amusing interest, I would say you seem to have a large number of two faced people in your ranks and a large number of plain defectors. Quite often the philosophy of war is to walk quietly amongst your own ranks and carry a big stick to render them useless when the time comes for the real confrontation. Reading the book "The Art of War" should be required reading for those who are seriously interested in winning any battles.
Excuse me but having been where the company was forced to close or bring in new management I can relate. Unfortunately the board did not move to get a new management team and the company was forced to close. We were out of work for a while but when you fight for the cause to make things better, you still don't lose.
BTW: Those of us in the US that united to stop the fighting in a conflict that we inherited and had no real purpose don't see our pulling out as a loss. We saved many thousands of lives from America, Australia, the UK, and in N.and S. Vietnam. To have my older brothers returned home safely from a place they had no business was a victory for all the cold nights in Washington D.C. of candle light vigils, sit ins, and peace rallies. It was definitely worth the fight.


[This message has been edited by MaxHeadroom (edited 02 January 2001).]

[fodder]

Max Headroom,

I meant no disrespect to the many brave Americans who went to Vietnam, a war I agree that they should never have been in. I was merely trying to point out that direct confrontation is not always the way to go, especially when not everyone is on your side. Guerrilla tactics often achieve the same result.

[fossil fuel]

Max,
Good post. However I don't think the US lost that war because of protests, they lost it because 14 years and over 2 million vietnamese lives (mostly civilian) later, the US was no closer to winning than the day they started. It was a war that could not be won. More tonnage of bombs was dropped on northern Vietnam and Laos than all of WW2.

[HotDog]

MaxHeadroom; what an apt username you have. You obviously nead a lot of head room to accomodate all that sh*t in your skull!

"After having lived there I can agree that they would give up their major cities in an invasion. It is endemic to the people of that country."

How can you form an opinion such as the above? You must have had a lot of knockbacks from the Australian sheilas and a few sheep during your cropdusting days to utter such a stupid generalization. Many young Australians died in two world wars and a lot of other conflicts, including Korea and Vietnam in defence of right and freedom. We have been fortunate not to have been invaded by the enemy, not that it hasn't been tried, by Japan. But I can assure you that the country would be defended bravely and without yielding any of our capitals to any invader in the future. East Timor should be a lesson to some; on our northern borders.

"The unity of people in this country is why the blacks do have their right to vote/own land and be counted on the census."

You make me laugh, citing blacks in your country, the land of the free. You have enslaved them, humiliated them and discriminated against them. Why shouldn't they have a right to vote and own land? Do you still consider them unequal? Nothing at all to do with the "unity" of your people. How many innocent lives have been lost due to the 2nd Amendment? Why is it that a medical doctor looks the other way when an injured accident victim lies in the middle of the road? Unity? Not to mention your election debacle. You are the laughing stock of the world friend, so don't go slanging off at Australians, come back to have another look; you might even get to like it.

[jumpseat]

Take it somewhere else guys. You people are all nuts!
OK..now where were we?

[CX Driver]

I’m sorry Jumpseat, I appreciate that this thread has gone a bit off the mark but I cannot sit hear and stand these sort of comments from Max Headroom without a reply.

Dear Max Headroom,

You have really done a disservice to your fellow countrymen. My Brother served in the Australian Army in a place called Nui Dat in the Vietnam War. He lost a lot of mates there. There were over 500 Australians killed in that war and I’m sure the families of those lost would not appreciate your viewpoint.

I have personally served with the Australian Defence Force in a combat role. Your description of the attitude of Australians with regard to fighting for what they believe in is way off the mark. Gladly your attitude is not typical. The United States is a great Allie of Australia. I have served with many Americans and hold them in high regard. None of them have displayed your ignorance.

[MaxHeadroom]

If you only had as much fervor for the cause and fight at CX you might win. Venting is a good thing and it helps to slag and vent on other people because it blows the smell of BS out of the room. Perhaps if you got your as8es in gear with as much fervor as you willingly attach others who post here you might gain some ground. But for the most part you are all a bunch of whinning do nothing backstabbing, probably wife cheating, overly defensive, weak minded people. Just read the years and years of this garbage here about your whinnings. Kiss off and boo hoo.

[jumpseat]

OK enough is enough..the last post was enough proof that MH is a nutter and responding is only going to encourage him/her. Does anyone need any more proof?

[Healey]

That's the problem with crop dusting - too close to too many chemicals!

[man in black]

Eh gads...I'm glad that our humble web site has resolved the Vietnam War and has settled the arguements between Chinese and German military writers.

But on our point, for those in the Company:

What are the issues?

What is the best approach?

(Warning: any variation from the point will be responded to with a long, verbose and boring quotation from an obscure Ostragothian military writer on the little-known battle of .........not to mention a narrative about when the writer and his wife went on a 5-minute "milk and cookie" strike against his neo-facist Kindagarten teacher)

[BusAce]

It is regretable that this topic of "do your job and stop nagging" has turned into WW3 between USA and Oz. Sick minds. It is sad but a fact that none of the chaps who talk about unity and sickouts would actually go ON STRIKE to win rights. Where were you when B scales were introduced? Benefits cut? ASL started? 27% slashed? Were you untied then?..... Will you ever be? that is my point and I hope that those with some brains would get the message at last and WAKE UP.
Thank you all for your contribution to this topic. I now sign off.

[BusyB]

Thank God for that.

[Shy_Ted]

Getting back to the original subject.Many moons ago a manager at Birdseed airways once gave me some wonderful advice : "If you dont like it, leave." He was most upset when I handed my notice in some time later! I left for HK.
Now back in dear old blighty the advice still stands. If conditions are so bad at CX may I offer folk to take up my advice?? Or maybe things arent as they seem.......

[Turtlenest]

Yes, I do know what it is like to trade in my job for principle. I fought the evil Satan, Francisco Lorenzo, and won. Won you say? Yes indeed! I left with my head held high, my dignity intact and the ability to get a job somewhere else on another day. I did lose out monetarily; most of my retirement, my medical insurance, my house, the cars and a very few toys. But those are just 'things'. Replaceable. If you, Ace, place a higher premium on money than honor, you will always lose the battle because you will just lower the bar when management decides it's time to squeeze you again; rationalize away the pay cut by getting a check airman override or management position. No great victories are ever won without great sacrifice. Eleven years after beating Lorenzo it still isn’t possible to ride on a jumpseat and NOT have the old captain shake my hand and thank me for what I did in 1989. The new guys don’t get it. They’ve never seen a furloughed and they think that two or five or ten years to the left seat is normal. They don’t understand that the ONLY reason they enjoy high pay and good work rules is because a group of honorable men and women drew a line in the sand and said, “enough”.

[jumpseat]

Hi Ace,
Seen the latest out of Atlanta? (todays news, "Delta pilots approve strike ballot").
Better call the Delta boys and tell them about 89'. Whilst you're at it ask how they managed to keep their pay and conditions so attractive for all these years?

[conan]

Just in case Bus ace does get back to read this I would like you to try something for me bend over and touch your toes.
Can't do it can you!!

Not surprised with a bat shoved that far up your butt. But then anytime management decides to push it further up you stand there and say how great life is

[BusAce]

I have to reply to CONAN, who is ill mannered and damn rude, on top of being a wee bit thick. Conan: - Please be kind enough to read the original posting to this topic, you may understand it if you read it more than once. After that, please gather your thoughts as to how to apply the topic to your current position in the company. You may then use the remaining capacity of the brain cell that you possess to think of a constructive reply, which may persuade your fellow workers of your opinion, if any. You see, the idea of those postings is to put a point of view across and generate a debate for or against. In your case lack of comprehension is dictating your replies.
Hope you can contribute to something in future.
BA

P.S. I have bent over as suggested, and managed to touch my toes. This makes the rest of your assumption invalid. So what other exercise would you like next?

[jumpseat]

Just keep working on that one Ace, If you are not prepared to take a stand it's an execise you'll be real good at in a few months. Did you have a chat with the boys in Delta yet?

[conan]

BUS ACE
I can't let this one pass, it's just too tempting, these are your exact words from your original post

"Wake up and be grateful that you have the best jobs in the world with the best pay and conditions. STOP NAGGING remember 1989 down under.

Well I don't consider pay cuts , continual degradation of my Conditions of service as the best job in the world. I ,unlike you, am prepared to stand up and do something about it. So whichever way you cut it, your first post was not an invitation for discussion, but rather a sermon to those of us who feel that enough is enough to accept our lot because we have this wonderful job with all these great perks. Keep practising the routine that I suggested earlier, you will need it soon enough.

[Thrust]

Busace is this your first jet job? You seem real pleased to be doing what you do and CX's obviously a better place than where you came from. Assuming I'm correct, and I may not be, the problem is that you can't compare a GA apprenticeship (or the military) with where you are now. Believe it or not, you are now in the top tier of the airline business. I'm not trying to sound self important but you should appreciate where you are. It's supposed to be the "big time"

We need to look forward not back. Other carriers offer their staff much better CONDITIONS than we get, for running in some cases, a much sloppier operation. We operate arguably the youngest fleet of widebodied A/C in the world. Our standards are up with the best carriers as our zero hull loss over the past quarter century plus attests. If we want to attract the right people to maintain that enviable record we need to improve our CONDITIONS to do so. We also need to improve our CONDITIONS if we want to retain the staff we have.

All I see is a continual reduction in the quality of my CONDITIONS. You may be happy comparing where you have come from but some of us have been here quite a while and want to retain what we have, improve to where we once were and have the same CONDITIONS for all; including, suprisingly, you!

I don't want to be rude to you but the word naive springs to mind.

[BusAce]

Thrust: Thank you for your comments. The answer to your first question is no. I have been in CX longer than you (most probably). I worked for the military, and for major air carriers. I am certainly not naïve, rather practical. I am being realistic here trying to tell those who don’t know what loosing a job means, and those who think the conditions are bad compared to other carriers, that: Yes the conditions are not as they were in 1990, but they are a lot better than other outfits. Do we let the company eat away more of the good stuff. Well we have so far BIG TIME, with the AOA’s blessing. The company will do what it can get away with. You have a union, let them negotiate better conditions. That’s why you pay them 1%. Going sick for a flight to punish the company is really childish and spineless. If one does not like the conditions, then for goodness sake leave and join the companies that you think are better. Rostering problems are not exclusive to CX, it is a worldwide problem. It will only be sorted if the union engages the company in a realistic dialogue. Not argue about 0.45 or so of an hour. You said that it was you who posted the “lets do it”. Then would you also lead the others and raise banners outside CX City demanding better conditions? Would anyone? The simple answer is NO because you and others would rather fight your cause by going sick, so no one can recognise you. I am not attacking any person here, if you think I am, then I apologise. I am being practical by advising all to wake-up.

[Kubota]

BA, you have to be either a "management" plant or the most naive person on the payroll. You haven't a clue. Really.

[Panza]

BA It is a pity we have people like you in the company. You aren't prepared to join the good fight but will take ALL the improvements we fight for, with open arms. If you think your conditions are just fine then ask the company to set your present contract in stone and leave us alone to fight for the young pilots behind us who arrive here on eroded contracts. You are as BLIND as those Captains that extended on reduced salary.

------------------
" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "

[Thrust]

If you have been here longer than me BA then you are well into your 12th year. If that is the case then you have put up with just as much cr@p as I have (or more). Once again I restate that we have to look forward to our future. I've had enough.

Any time the AOA takes a vote and the majority want to picket outside CX (or use industrial action to further our aims) I'm IN. I don't use sickness as a weapon or a roster adjustment tool BA and never have. By "lets do it" I refer to standing up to the bullies that you would rather cower from.

[CX Driver]

Bus Ace is a management wind up

Where you see Bus Ace - read Cheese Cake