MEP rating question- yes another, sorry

[LondonJ]

Quick question,

I have had a PPL for about 2.5yrs and about 100hrs P1 and am thinking of doing a multi because I have just been give access to a plane. I would say I am a relatively average pilot in relation to my experience, this being said is it feasible to assume that I could pass a multi-engine test with 6 hours multi time or does it usually take people with no twin time a fair bit longer than that?

Cheers

[bookworm]

Are you going to fly the MEP regularly after you get the rating? If not, wait until you're in a position to answer "yes" before you take the rating!

I'd suggest some time in a faster, complex single to get you used to the speeds and the power management differences before migrating to a twin, if that's economical.

[LondonJ]

I would have pretty regular access to a few multis for not very much money, a very rare thing to find in this business.

[witchdoctor]

Don't see why it can't be done. The fundamentals don't change any from singles to twins (power, attitude, trim, lookout etc...), and the assymetric handling aspect doesn't require a huge amount of time to grasp. Depending on the type you might be flying, the speeds, power and complexity are not exactly a quantum leap from most light singles.

6 hours with your experience should be a doddle, especially if you are looking at VFR flying afterwards.

[FlyingForFun]

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to. But I'm not sure how much use a twin would be for VFR flight. It's generally only worth using a twin for reasonable-length cross-country flights, and an IMC rating will be a huge help if you're trying to do that type of flight. Remember that at the faster speeds of the twin you'll need more visibility than in a C150 to be able to fly safely VFR. There was a thread recently about flying IFR in a twin on an IMC rating, and what additional training should be done.....

FFF
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[deice]

Although it may be feasible to get a grip of the twin in only 6 hrs, it does sound a bit on the low side. It really depends on your previous experience.
I'm not sure what the JARs say about this but what I've heard looking into it is that without an IR and/or CPL you need 15 hrs training. If thats regs or reqs I'm not 100% sure of.

I'm going to do mine in a Seneca soon and with a CPL and IR my instructor still says I should look at about 10hrs, even though he says I can do it in 5-6 hrs according to JAR.

100hrs P1 doesn't say alot about your experience level.
What types have you flown, CS-prop, retract, high performance etc. ? And do you hold IMC or IR ?

[silverknapper]

De ice

With a CPL and IR I think your instructor is taking the michael. You would have done them in a complex single. In my experience pepole who go over the 6 hours generally do so as they are taking time to get used to wobbly props and gear etc, not to mention bigger weights and higher speeds.
In saying that then most people are correct. It depends on what you've flown. If your 100 hrs are in a 152 then I doubt you would do it in 6. Eight may be a realistic target. Otherwise I don't see any reason not to expect it in 6.

Good luck

[charlie-india-mike]

Having just done the very thing that is being discussed here, I would say you should look at about 7 to 8 hrs including the test.

I did it in 7.5hr with about 140hrs TT ,an IMC rating and 25 hrs complex single time. .5hr getting to know the aircraft and then asymetric, asymetric , asymetric. Come to think of it , I should only have been paying for a SEP as most of the time we spent flying around on one.

C-I-M

<<edit: Did that 7.5 hours include the test?>>

[Charlie Zulu]

I can see how it is possible to undertake the JAA MEP rating in 6 hours plus test, especially for someone with lots of experience on complex aircraft.

Having about 550 hours before starting my MEP rating including about 150 hours complex time in various Arrows, I took a few minutes under 13 hours on a Seminole plus the hour long test for my initial MEP. However this was under the FAA regulations and as such I had to learn to fly it to FAA CPL/IR standards as that is what I held.

If one is going to use the Multi rating on their JAA PPL in IMC (if they have an IMC rating) then you should definately get extra training in IMC asymetric flight. Its not that difficult though but I wouldn't like to figure it out on my own if one of the donkeys quit whilst in thick IMC.

All the best with the MEP, its a lot of fun (but at the same time hard work) and you'll probably have a permenant grin upon your face whilst flying multi's.

[Chilli Monster]

I did mine under the old rules, with 95 hours total time, none of it complex or retractable. I did have an IMC and a night rating. It took the stated 5 hours instruction plus an hour and a bit for the test.

It's doable, as my experience shows. However - be honest with yourself. How often will you use it? Lack of currency means in the event of an engine loss the remaining engine just takes you to the accident site quicker. Unless you're going to do 30-40 hours of multi time a year, and are going to practice engine out procedures for some of that (In IMC as CZ says, if you are so rated) then it would be a waste of money.

In addition - have you got an IMC rating? Without that a twin is useless as it's a going places machine, not a "bimbling around the local area on a nice day" type aircraft. It's not necessary, but I'd recommend that rating first so at least you can use the aircraft at something close to approaching its full potential. Also it will improve your flying skills so that, when everything does turn 'pear-shaped', you've got some spare mental capacity to cope.

Flying a twin is a lot of fun, but it requires a more disciplined approach to planning and flying if it's to be done properly.

[S-Works]

I did mine in the minumum 5hrs and filled the last hour with doing instrument appraoches as a space filler. Went it with about 300hrs and around 100 on complex singles.

I learnt in a duchess which I still fly now and speeds were pretty much the same as the singles. The main skills were memorising the touch drills in response to engine failures etc. Flying the turbo Sennecca was the most interesting in remembering not to firewall the throttles on the take off roll.

Ther is nothing to flying a twin if your an average pilot. I have flown quite a few hundred hours in various twins since and a number of annual renewals which I combine with the IMC renewal without problems.

The main point is unless you are going to fly regularily then save your money. There is nothing more dangerous than being behind a twin when something goes wrong. I try to fly the twin at least every 2 weeks during the winter and in the summer I fly it all the time touring.

Comments about having an IMC are very valid. VFR only a twin is very limiting and that leads to a lack of currency that can leave you a long way behind the aircraft.

[LondonJ]

Thanks for all your responses, I think the plan is now to hold off for the twin until Julyish and get some complex single time and an IMC in the mean time.

[bookworm]

Ther is nothing to flying a twin if your an average pilot.

There's nothing to flying a twin if you're an average pilot with 100 hours on complex singles. But to go from a bare PPL with 95 hours and no complex time who's never seen an IAS of 120 kt before, to a twin rating in 5 hours is more than I think one should expect from an average pilot. CM's experience proves that it may be possible, even though he had the benefit of the skills that an IMC rating gives you.

[S-Works]

i meant that there was nothing to flying a twin not actually on the amount of training.

Complex time does help. but as a point my mate who I fly with all the time went straight into the rating with the minimum flying time required and no complex time and did it in the 5hr minimum as well.

5hrs is the assumption the CAA make so after that it is down to the individual. some are faster learners than others.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

May I suggest that part of the problem with changing from one flying machine to another is caused by the training industry making things "seem" more difficult.

A good case in point with flying is after teaching someone to fly an airplane and giving them the license to allow them to fly by themselves by adding one or two simple to operate levers, switches, knobs or whatever, the machine suddenly becomes "Complex "

That does not make any sense in my opinion and only adds doubt in the mind of the person wishing to change into another airplane.

However adding another engine and putting both out on the wings does require more slill to fly safely, if one quits that is...

Chuck E.

[charlie-india-mike]

Keygrip

Yes, 7.5 including the test that was about an 1 hr

C-I-M

[Tinstaafl]

Apart from the possible greater mass & speed, flying a light twin with both engines operating is not much different from flying a retractable & CSU single.

The catch is that light twins are *especially* deadly if an engine fails AND you're not up to speed with the handling & performance problems. Statistics published by Oz's CASA some years ago showed that, while light twins are involved in fewer forced landings/crashes due to engine failure than singles, those that do crash have a much higher fatality rate.

That means some amount of regular assymetric practice to maintain competancy is needed. The less the experience of the pilot then the shorter the duration before significant skill degradation occurs. Even more so if considering IMC flight.

[deice]

Silverknapper,

Not sure if I understood correctly or if I misunderstood incorrectly (:uhoh: ). I did my CPL and IR in SE so I'm just adding the ME and ME-IR. As is pointed out with all that already done I should be able to do the ME in 5-6 hrs. I guess the initial question was for a PPL and relatively limited experience.
I consider myself inexperienced with 500+ hrs and 100 in complex singles... Perhaps I'm underestimating myself. :\

My instructor is great but not always on top of all the time requirements, so I'll certainly make sure I don't get screwed for more pennies than necessary.

Thanks

[silverknapper]

Only the first paragraph was for you de ice. Was saying that with your experience you should ace the M/E in minimum hours. Any instructor who is trying to sell you more I would be wary of.

[deice]

Gotcha! Me heads not screwed on properly this weekend...
/Thanks