Racism & Bigotry in the UK Armed Forces

[You Can Call Me Al]

:sad:

Having read through the Guantanamo thread and as evidenced in postings on other threads; depite what we are led to believe, it is evident that a lot of 'right wing' views are still very much to the fore within our ranks (pun intended).

If the people that post on PPRuNe, apparently individuals with opinions and intelligence, are prepared to write pretty contentious stuff - is it any wonder that the (probably) less-well educated are so easily led into doing the sort of things we have been seeing brought before CM in the last couple of days?

It's not always easy for a simple minded soul like I to read between the lines of some posts (tongue in cheek - serious?) If they really do believe what they write I hope they never arrive in a position of any power.

Yours in sadness

YCCMA

[SASless]

SpecOPs operator runs up to group of terrs....hollering "Group Hug!" "Now why cannot we all get along?" "Smooch! Smooch!" and marches off astride to report another terrorist cell rendered combat ineffective!

Psywar at its best.....why just not surrender and call it a day...turn the clock back to the Dark Ages and get on with our lives.

I kinda like having some brutish shaved apes that look forward to a good dust-up. Makes me sleep better at night knowing good men and women value freedom and stand ready to go after those who mean to take it away from us that do not believe the way they want us to.

Put me squarely on the side of the Neanderthals in this one.

[Training Risky]

Are you qualified to comment on your perception of "Racism & Bigotry in the UK Armed Forces"?

Are you actually in the Armed Forces?

If Not: your opinions are not worth the bandwidth they're printed on.

If you are: you would know that there is no racism in the UK Armed Forces. It exists in:

1. The minds of a few individuals who quickly find themselves out of it (ie, it's not institutionalised).

2. The minds of the sick, lame and lazy who need something else to blame for not achieving anything in the UK Armed Forces.

3. And it exists in the minds of the whinging, comfortable, fat-assed Grauniad readers who wouldn't know a hard days work if it came up and introduced itself with a group-hug.

I think you've confused racism with intolerance for treachery and homegrown terrorism.

Hope your fishing was successful.

[VP8]

With you SASless!!:E

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
- George Orwell-

VEEPS

[BEagle]

Precisely....

Whilst tree-hugging lentilst teachers poison the minds of schoolchildren with their bigoted socialist claptrap.

4 star unleaded - the smell of freedom!

[Radar Muppet]

Oh Beags, stop using such subtlety in your sarcasm...you must remember that our transatlantic cousins read these post as well. What are the chances of them thinking that you are anything but a mindless motorhead?

[teeteringhead]

But isn't "irony" just like "steely" ......


...... but with a lower carbon content?:rolleyes:

[crossbow]

But those arguments just retaliate against the argument. They don't defend it.

The Royal Air Force has a hardcore element of Racist and bigots who continue to sow the seeds of white supremacy. I have personally seen it and like our good friend states, anyone who has read the thread regarding the guys from Cuba will have been disgusted by some of the comments coming from serving air force people. Disgusted but not surprised

[airborne_artist]

YCCMA

You arrive from Mars and land in a girls' school. Your first assumption is that all earth dwellers have two soft bumpy things on their chests.

Don't therefore assume that all members of the services think like most (but not all) posters on PPrune's Mil forum.

You clearly have not read any posts by Jackonicko, or Pr00ne, our resident, oh-so caring, tree/bunny hugging members.

[insty66]

Xbow

I can't let that go.
Where are all these "white supremacists?" If you've seen it, why didn't you do something about it? as doing nothing is as bad as commiting the offence.
I can say hand on heart that all the people who work for me are far too busy at work to be hatching the birth of the RAF Nazi party and their major concern is that everyone else pulls their weight (in a non fattist way).;)
Your kind of sweeping comment is just as damaging as anything small minded idiots take the time to post. Read your post in isolation and then refer to a-a's post and you'll understand.

If you were fishing well done:ugh:

[You Can Call Me Al]

Interesting to note that the first replies were in the tone that they were...

Airborne Artist - of course one can't tar all with the same brush. To do so would be to follow the line of 'argument' used by so many of the types that sadden me.

Training Risky - yes I am x 2 (and I shouldn't mind betting that for the latter, considerably longer than you!!)

Some of the posts above merely go to underline the intolerant, inflexible attitude adopted by a distressing number of people who are, in all likelihood, either in or progressing to, a position of power and influence over others.

I repeat my sentiment,

Yours in sadness,

Al

[Jackonicko]

SASless,

We rarely agree, but I'm with you on this, to an extent.

Like you "I kinda like having some brutish shaved apes that look forward to a good dust-up. Makes me sleep better at night knowing good men and women value freedom and stand ready to go after those who mean to take it away from us that do not believe the way they want us to."

Certainly I don't want NCOs in the Paras or the Royals to be too 'fluffy', but I do want them to be intelligent enough to know when to tread softly and when to 'go in hard'. The different experiences encountered by the US and the Brits in Iraq gives some clue as to why this might be useful.

Nor would I be happy for the 'Neanderthal' approach to be prevalent within the officer corps or the more technocratic areas of the Forces.

So while I want those who defend us to be rigorous and aggressive in doing so, I do not want them to be:
1) Ignorant racists who see everyone with a brown skin or a turban as being the enemy, or who can seriously hold up Enoch Powell as a model of sensible racial policy.
2) War criminals who abuse prisoners (I'm not talking about making a few looters pick up litter).
3) Narrow minded right wing bigots or disingenuous fascists who are happy to allow their own prejudice to take precedence over due legal process.

[FOMere2eternity]

crossbow,

Of all the myriad of things that don't work in the RAF - and God, there are lots - racism isn't an issue, apart from perhaps the patronising policy-makers directing recruiting at 'minority initiatives'.

Equal Opportunities training patronised me and many others in the RAF because, for the most part, there was no need. Those I work and socialise with at the shop-floor level react aggressively and negatively to racist comments when they are occasionally heard. And before you say 'aha, there you go admitting racism exists', of course there are some, hidden in our midst, but the RAF is only a cross-section of the population. That said, the RAF has far less extremism of any kind than you would find outside the Services.

Journos, of course, love the stereotype of 'drunken squaddies', 'toffee-nosed out-of-touch officers' (ok, they're not always wrong) and 'racist bullying NCOs as seen in BBC's Casualty', whereas, in fact your average junior airman thinks far more than his predecessors of the National Service era.

Today's 'yoofs' in the RAF, on the whole, rank way above their civilian peers and, perhaps unfortunately for policy-makers, need to be nurtured and spoken to like adults, as opposed to patronised. Meeting people's aspirations and communicating properly with them is another entire post, but racism is definitely as good as extinct without the need for senior officers to produce propaganda stats saying so.

As for comments on this forum? Frankly it's nonsense to play the race card against men and women fighting for this country who express their opinion that potential opponents from within their own country may now stand to make a fortune from the compensation culture that enjoys their protection.

[kippermate]

Got to agree with FOM's comments regarding 'Casualty'. Mrs Kipper forces me to watch it every week! I have written to complain about the BBC's representation of Servicemen in that particular programme on a number of ocassions. Needless to say I have had no response.

PS. Don't tell Mrs Kipper that I've complained. She'll make me watch 'Holby' as well!!

:(

[charliegolf]

Whilst tree-hugging lentilst teachers poison the minds of schoolchildren with their bigoted socialist claptrap.

Bo**ocks from a bloke who, since he has been cocooned at huge public cost from society in general, feels able to generalise at will.

On racism in the RAF

To my eternal shame, I sat by in the 80's whilst a southern african racist ba****d was allowed to hold court in the crewroom of an SH squadron. He was nco aircrew, and not a single superior rank challenged him. Why, because he was a big thug.

For evil to flourish only requires that good men do nothing.

CG

[WorkingHard]

"For evil to flourish only requires that good men do nothing"
Charliegolf straight question, what is your worst kind of evil?

[BEagle]

So, a devout coward then, charliegolf..... Or, if not merely lacking testicular substance, then perhaps just lacking sufficient conviction?

As for schools - when competititve sport and even the game of conkers is banned due to weak-willed huggy-fluffy lefty loonies, it is indeed time to speak out.

"Bo**ocks from a bloke who, since he has been cocooned at huge public cost from society in general, feels able to generalise at will."

I quite agree - you really were talking utter boLLocks!

[brakedwell]

Can anybody enlighten me as to what an SH squadron is? My memory seems to be well past it's sell by date.

[Door Slider]

Charlie Golf, just because you were a witness to racism in the 80s that does not mean its prevalent in every crewroom today. In the time I have served I can gladly say I have not witnessed or heard of any racist events in the RAF.
Why are the press picking on the military?? Easy option for cheap story lines?? Anyone been to a football match recently and heard the horrific levels of racism being hurled towards the players??

SH squadron, Support Helicopters, the operational bit of the RAF.!!

[charliegolf]

merely lacking testicular substance, then perhaps just lacking sufficient conviction?

Beagle

Both then, aged 20. Not so now, I hope. Older and wiser men didn't have the same excuse.

Your knowledge of huggy fluffy schools will come, I suspect from the same tabloids which crucify the armed services for any and all 'misdemeanours', which is how they recently veiwed expenses and the like.

Do you swallow everything they write?

Working hard

Exactly that- not speaking out.

CG

[The Gorilla]

The problem as I see it, is that the media of today is actively generating hatred. A large proportion of the stories are sensationalised to discredit the Government and sections of the community that the media barons dislike.

Take immigration, yes we do have a serious problem that needs sorting but we are a long way from the rivers of blood that some news sources would suggest. To suggest that Michael Howard is a racist for daring to suggest solutions is outrageous.

It is the same with the rail industry. The railways have improved beyond belief since the mid 90's but you wouldn't know that from the press. There is never any good news reported in the press!! Every road traffic accident at a level crossing is a train crash!! I don't think so!!

The Forces are just not flavour of the month any more and you will have to endure much more of the negative reporting. That's the price to be paid for taking part in a disastrous and some would argue, illegal war. A war which will continue long after tomorrows elections.

Door

I have witnessed racism with the RAF but it is individuals who are racist NOT the service. It's the same out here only much worse I can assure you.

:ok:

[Skeleton]

I can say with hand on heart I never saw one example of racism in my 25 years in the job.

Bigotry yes I did, but only from Scottish fans who could not decide whether they hated the English more than the "other" teams fans, the other side of Glasgow :rolleyes:

What I did see rearing its ugly head toward the end, was Positive Discrimination

Sad but very true.

[You Can Call Me Al]

Just referring back to my thread-starter, I have had little contact at work with racists or bigots, but then, they may not often get an opportunity to show themselves as such (maybe only in a social environment). My point was that these individuals seem to post on PPRuNe. Their views are clear and can only be described as disgraceful. As for the media, if they get hold of the sort of claptrap posted by these bigots...

A lot of the arguments on both sides are well considered and make sense.

Such a shame that it is the minority who post the cr@p that stands out

:sad:

Al

[Pass-A-Frozo]

You Can Call Me Al


You must be <Insert racist comment> and a <insert bigotted comment> to be overly concerned about what people post on an anoymous forum. :} (That is a joke) People on here may or may not be who they say they are, so it\'s not really fair to take these posts as gospel and apply them to the UK MoD.

:rolleyes:

[Roland Pulfrew]

YCCMA

You bigot! ;) Just because your views are different from those who post here they are (racist) bigots?!?! I do not agree with your view point, to me it's far too pink and fluffy, but I will defend your right to have an opinion and to express it publicly - whether I agree with it or not!

If people wish to post, on an anonymous forum, and express there own (deeply held?) views that is their right as well. What I hate about this government is that they are attempting to criminalise certain view points. That means that you and I and everyone else lose the right of free speech!

A democratic society must be allowed to express the full range of views and to DEBATE them publicly. If Michael Howard is accused of being a racist, or for playing the "race card", or just for daring to challenge the sacred cow of immigration then that is only right and proper in a democratic society. If he is called a racist for doing so shows the moral vacuum that the pink and fluffies (liberal - allegedly - intellectuals) actually live in!! And also shows their utter bigotry as well. If certain papers use immigration to sell news papers and the public buy them then that is their business. For all the sensationalist stories there must be a grain of truth. After all as Beags pointed out playing conkers at school has been banned by a number of schools. At others pupils do have to wear safety goggles. PC gone mad!

Back to the original thread. The only real racism I have witnessed during my time in, was inflicted on a white bloke by a black woman. In my (very personal) view, most people in the RAF do not look at the colour of someone's skin, rather how professional they are. If you are professional then you are part of the team, if you are a slacker, then black, white, yellow or purple you will be the subject to much (deserved?) banter. If the cap fits........

As for the media, if they get hold of the sort of claptrap posted by these bigots...

Hmmm. For someone who has just registered but criticises so freely do I smell a journo fishing???????:oh: :oh:

Rant Off

[Cambridge Crash]

A few months ago I was travelling on the underground just after rush hour when this well-dressed drunk boarded the carriage and let off a string of racist invective at the passengers, most of whom were black business types. What shocked me was the reactions of the passengers - they buried their heads deeper into their books and magazines, and pretended to ignore him. It was clear by the body language that such verbal attacks were not uncommon. I cheerfully pushed the uncouth gentleman off at the next stop, gently inviting him to have a go at me, if he felt the need to take the matter further.

At the next station, one of the passengers alighted and said, 'he'll be worse next time', and gave me an admonishing stare.

A small and perhaps irrelevant anecdote, however indicative that racist attitudes are still to be found in Society. However, I have never encountered institutional racism in the Services based on skin colour, but there are still institutional barriers based on nationality which I find abhorent.

Several years ago, I was invited to renounce my commonwealth nationality on the grounds of 'allied security concerns'. The matter was dropped when my solicitor pointed out that would, therefore, require me to rescind subjectcy, ie by renouncing HM the Queen as head of State of the place of my birth. The Innsworth response was - 'well you can't expect us to investigate all these cases'. The Solicitor pointed out that they had a duty of care to do so, and their tune changed when it was stated 'so you descriminate against Polynesians by omission, then? The impugnation against my character was withdrawn, an appology was issued and my Subjectcy remained unchanged. I was, at the time, also a holder of a British Passport which the Service had paid for.

I happily now reside in academia and have never found any racism, institutional or otherwise, in a community that has roots in the 13th Century. Multiculturalism is alive and well, and has made Britain a richer place in so many respects.

CC

[soddim]

THE gorilla wrote:

The Forces are just not flavour of the month any more and you will have to endure much more of the negative reporting. That's the price to be paid for taking part in a disastrous and some would argue, illegal war. A war which will continue long after tomorrows elections.

Whilst many might hold the forces responsible they should remember that it was those who voted for Bliar that are to blame and those who will vote for him again in the next election will compound the felony. The forces fight as ordered by the government and their leaders took great care prior to this war to ensure that the government acted legally.

[sweep complete]

What you have to realise is that 'political correctness' and 'equal opportunities' are big business these days. The number of people employed in this field is quite staggering, and the money our pathetic politicians throw at this 'cause' is obscene.

If all was rosy, then these armies of tree hugging, yogurt knitting liberals would have to seek honest employment elsewhere...SO... it is in their interest to continually convince us that we are all racist, bigotted scum, and to convince minorities that they are being victimised by society, the polive, the Forces etc etc.

I don't deny their are racist people in our society (and remember it works both ways) - however I am totally convinced that 'institutional racism' is a myth these people create to justify their own pampered existence.

The true disgrace is positive discrimination which is becoming the norm as people fear the racist/bigot labels that are constantly dished out.

[tablet_eraser]

It's not often I actually post anything here (well - never, actually), but this issue does interest me, since I sit every day in a crewroom with friends and colleagues, all of us tarred by the tabloid media and low-brow TV programmes as being racist, Right-wing bigots. Bullies, thugs, etc etc.

I don't care whether I am fed, followed, led or protected by men or women, black, white, yellow, green, red, or turquoise. It's their professionalism that makes them people worth serving with.

On the other hand, the very few bigots who have attacked me (I am openly gay) have been supremely difficult people to work with - and that's not just my opinion, but the opinion of other people who listen to their ignorant ranting. These individuals do not represent the Air Force, and it is folly to claim that a few isolated cases of racism/sexism/homophobia indicate a widespread problem. The challenge for all of us is not to whisper about how unpleasent some people are, but to stand up to them and use every means at our disposal to remove their demoralising whingeing and bullying. It comes down to an issue as simple as following rules & regs - lest we forget, Equal Opps is enshrined in Service and Civil Law, so we're all obliged to stick to it.

For all the talk of tree-hugging, I don't think the RAF subscribes to that. EO (or is it E&D now?) is a legal requirement, the Service has no option but to teach it. Sure, sometimes it is patronising, but I recently attended the most entertaining E&D lecture I've seen - some instructors actually give a s:mad:t about E&D. People who care about working in a Service that puts the best individual into a job, regardless of race, etc, care about E&D because it helps ensure that no-one feels excluded or disadvantaged for a trait over which they have no control. Which, incidentally, is why I never answer ethnic monitoring surveys!

And now... I'll lapse back into silence.

[hayelz81]

CClash:
"A few months ago I was travelling on the underground just after rush hour when this well-dressed drunk boarded the carriage and let off a string of racist invective at the passengers, most of whom were black business types. What shocked me was the reactions of the passengers - they buried their heads deeper into their books and magazines, and pretended to ignore him. It was clear by the body language that such verbal attacks were not uncommon. I cheerfully pushed the uncouth gentleman off at the next stop, gently inviting him to have a go at me, if he felt the need to take the matter further."

I hate to be brutally honest, here, but most people wont get involved in this kind of situation, for fear of a knife being pulled out on them for stating their objection. THis isn't a scare story, but merely the state of our society today. I dont think I would have said anything either, if it was words being said (when it would come to physical violence, I would get off at next stop and report to the train staff), and unless anyone else on here was 6'3", stacked and surrounded by 5 mates, Idont think JOe Bloggs Public would say anything either.

Am I right?

I saw a womans hand bag - all her important possessions like credit cards, house keys, mobile, address book, important phone numbers, drycleaning receipts contained within - tore right rom her shoulder by a young man, who she proceeded to run after screaming for help, but who stopped? No-one, thats right. Sad as it is, its the world of today.

[Cambridge Crash]

I take your point that people are concerned about their own safety (and also by the fear - if not the reality - of prosecution or litigation by the object of your protestations), but the point of my story was not my heroic (!) intervention (stiffened by several pints after work) but by the apparent acquiesence by the targets of the abuse. I am 6'2" with a bad back (and an immigrant, whatever that might mean), but I agree that I should have reported the matter to station staff. Nonetheless, lack of action by the public doesn't make racism any more acceptable.

CC

[Jobza Guddun]

"The Royal Air Force has a hardcore element of Racist and bigots who continue to sow the seeds of white supremacy."

You utter w****r. Where is your proof? You come out with sh1t like that but give no instances.

In 16 years in the RAF I have had a wide variety of jobs and locations. Not once have I witnessed or heard of anyone being abused or discriminated against because of their colour or sexuality or what-bloody-ever. Nor would I tolerate it. I have been in Scotland, Wales and NI, and in each of those areas I have been abused by locals for being English, there, and stealing their jobs. Work that one out. What's your excuse for that crossbow?

Of course people have opinions, but the vast majority of us get on with it without insult when we work with people who aren't our cup of tea. That's our job after all. It's what being a professional instead of some whinging pontificating fluffy amateur is all about.

Statements like yours sunshine cause more trouble than they solve because you insult the majority. The Gorilla is correct in his view of the media and people like you fan the flames. Your head must be so far up your arse you probably have a glass stomach to see out of.

Rant over, hook withdrawn.

[C130 Techie]

I have seen little or no evidence of racism or bigotry in recent years in the RAF.

However I and many others have recently endured the latest attempt at Equal Ops and Diversity Training in the form of the Garnet Foundation Forum Theatre.

If this poor attempt at making us all pink and fluffy is the best that is on offer to service personnel for equal ops training then we may well be heading for problems in the future.

Another fine waste of taxpayers money. :(

[Snapdragon]

Quote"racism and bigotry in the UK armed forces" What about the rest of UK society.For example... You have the "MOBO"awards. Music of Black Origin. Is there an award ceremony for the MOWO, Music of white origin...Or is that discriminatory against ethnic minority groups? I'm not a racist in any way, but there seem to be double standards in most areas!!

[stiknruda]

Snapdragon's post reminded me of something that I was musing over yesterday morning. I turned on the TV to catch early morning news and weather and the announcer was a black lady, I caught two more BBC news broadcasts yesterday and the announcers were also from ethnic minorities.

Am I missing something here in Norfolk? Sure 10% of our population are non-white, despite not being too widespread in this part of East Anglia (and I frequently work with a charming Jamaican) are the Beeb not overcompensating in an affirmative action style.

When I went through IOT, I became firm friends with the only black guy on the course, an Olympic swimming medal winner! Over twenty years ago and I never heard a word that insulted his skin collar: his navigation skills, his leadership all came in for criticism but his hue was never an issue!

Wonder what he (PM) is doing now?

Stik

[theblether]

OCTU, Henlow, circa 1978. Squadron consisted of approx 80 students. six of whom were SOAF and six WRAF. My Flight had neither in it. Opening address from Flt Cdr on day one went something along the lines of "Gentlemen, consider how lucky you are, we've got no women and no coons in this flight." Cue nervous laughter.

In the end analysis some of the Omanis were rubbish, but that was only because it was an attendance course for them to go and chase girls in Luton. The others were great and though I never made it to Oman myself I have plenty of friends who had a great time there.

Moral of the tale, this Flt Cdr was an ignorant git who thought he was a smart arse and had a chip on his shoulder about having to be at OCTU. Was / is this endemic of a racist culture in the forces, no, but racism exists nonetheless, just as it does in society as a whole.

[tablet_eraser]

Couldn't have put it better, JG.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Cambridge Crash

I don't think CamTech is long enough established to publish its own English dictionary, so I suggest you try the one published by an institution founded by King Alfred the Great in the ninth Century. The OED does not recognise "subjectcy" or "impugnation", but offers "subjection" and "impugnment"as the appropriate nouns.

I really could not understand the point you were trying to make in your penultimate paragraph. I attested into the RAFVR in 1946 at OUAS when I held a NZ passport - which classed me as a British Subject. I was retrospectively denationalised by the Nationality Act of 1948, because both my father and I were born in India (he was a colonial administrator and his father an Army officer). I had to re-register as a British subject and in the fullness of time the RAF replaced my NZ passport with a standard British one. This never complicated security clearances. I never encountered any racism or bigotry in the RAF - certainly no more than at Oxford, which has had its moments in the past.

There was the legendary occasion before WW2 when a black gentleman rowed in the Balliol crew, the first time that an "ethnic" had taken part in Eights Week. Showing at the same time at the local cinema was the film "Saunders of the River", starring Paul Robeson, the splended black bass. Robeson sang a traditional African canoeing song as a crew of warriors paddled their war canoe down the river. Some wag shouted from the back of the theatre "Well rowed Balliol!"

Would that have been racism or banter? I certainly took much more stick as a "Pom" at school in NZ.

[Raymond Ginardon]

19 years in (RAF). Agree completely with JG.

Ray

[Cambridge Crash]

FV

Impugnation of character - QR(RAF) refer. Subjectcy - my UK Naturalisation certificate refers!

My concern was that the RAF, in spite of me have dual citizenship, insisted that I should renounce a Commonwealth citizenship - even though I was transferred as such 15 years earlier. The Nationality Act 1981 effectively closed the door for right of residency (not the same as nationality) on Commonwealth 'subject' if they were not born in the UK. For the decision to reject Commonwealth personnel (the letter included dire threats to one's career, such as transfer to less sensitive ie non-flying appointments or release) made by a relatively low-grade civil servant - albeit based on advice from the Centre - within PMA is unacceptable. It was all the more untenable when PMA admitted that they had not researched the 400-odd cases in similar circumstances. Ultimately I received an unreserved appology because of 'an oversight'; this, however, required me to engage a solicitor and to confront the 'powers that be' in a means that would normally be prejudicial to a future career.

BTW, I am a banksman for a college crew for Lent Bumps (being too old and knackered to row) and in spite of Cambridge being a multi-ethnic community, rowing seems to be the preserve of white middle class ex public school boys & girls. I hasten to add that they are a good bunch and the boat clubs go out of their way to improve 'access'; this call is hardly heeded by visible ethnic minorities. Might also be something to do with the 0615 starts....chipping ice off the landings!

[TurbineTooHot]

Tab Crash

rowing seems to be the preserve of white middle class ex public school boys & girls. I hasten to add that they are a good bunch and the boat clubs go out of their way to improve 'access'; this call is hardly heeded by visible ethnic minorities. Might also be something to do with the 0615 starts....chipping ice off the landings!

You've answered a question there matey. Why are there not more "visible ethnic minorities" on the river in Eights Week? Why are there not more in the armed forces even though we go out of our way to recuit them. Maybe, just maybe some folks just aren't interested.....

Why, should the crews be considered racist for not having filled their quota?

If the answer is no, then try applying that to the Armed Forces of TODAY, and see what arguement you come up with, TAB!

Turbine

[jayteeto]

I saw some people who had extreme views in my time, one is still serving. Never knew if he was serious or not but he used to say, 'when I joined up it was to shoot n###ers, now we have to help them'. Don't bury your head in the sand, racists are there but they ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE to the military. It just reflects society as a whole

[Cambridge Crash]

Turbine Too Hot

With respect to your comments, we are in clear agreement. I did not allude to the boat clubs as being racist (or indeed the Services, for that matter - but descrimination in other areas has continued until very recently). I sat down with this week's regatta handbook, and out of the 250 odd competitors, about 15 (on the basis of their name) would appear to be a VEM. SImply an observation; non-judgemental.

I recall a few years ago attending an ecumenical seminar on personnel issues when the question was asked why so few south Asians were joining the Services. The answer was that they were too ambitious! As you may have observed on another thread, the Services are not considered attractive option for many young & educated people - unless they have a burning ambition, say, to be a pilot. Again, I allude to in an earlier posting, I saw the recruting stand at a Graduate recruitment show at a university not far from here. The RAF stand look down at heel and had little to offer the few who ventured to make any enquiries. A physics tripos, for example, being offered a career as an enlisted med tech. I can't image that the careers chaps picked up much trade that day compared wih what was on offer from blue chip companies and government departments, including the Foreign Office and GCHQ, to name a few.

Disappointing to see that the Services appear to hold little of interest for many young people. It is clear from what I hear from undergraduates here is that Iraq is a big factor - and these distressing stories and allegations of abuse arising will not improve the standing of the Army, and the other Services for that matter. It is not an issue of racism, but if you were a young Muslim, given these recent revelations, would you want to join the Services?

Cantab Crash

[jamino]

Just to throw in my two peneth worth,nice thread i love these, I was regiment for 9 years 2/1/33sqn,forget,blacks gays,muslims whatever, even if u were a hetrosexual 6ft white male and you just stood out because you had a big nose you got a good kicking evey night at depot. But then again thats why it works,conformity....say what you like...we're good at war because are forces are what they are
,remove the elitism,be it colour creed etc,the system will not work....look at the americans,and the ruperts at head shed no that all too well,thats why you will never get rid of it,and they dont want it to go either.when youv goto send guys to the sharp end,these are the guys they want.

[SASless]

Tell that to Specialist Sixth Class Lawrence Joel, US Army, holder of the Congressional Medal of Honor. A man of color who under intense enemy fire and depsite being wounded several times during the day, recovered wounded comrades and tended their wounds while ignoring his own. He did not play the race card nor did he show partiality in who he administered aid to.

Our belief is all soldiers are green. In combat, that becomes abundantly true. It is one thing to talk about being at the pointy end....it is another to be there.


CITATION:

Rank and organization: Specialist Sixth Class (then Sp5c), U.S. Army, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion (Airborne), 503d Infantry, 173d Airborne Brigade. Place and date: Republic of Vietnam, 8 November 1965 Entered service at: New York City, N.Y. G.O. No.: 15, 5 April 1967. Born: 22 February 1928, Winston-Salem, N.C. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty. Sp6c. Joel demonstrated indomitable courage, determination, and professional skill when a numerically superior and well-concealed Viet Cong element launched a vicious attack which wounded or killed nearly every man in the lead squad of the company. After treating the men wounded by the initial burst of gunfire, he bravely moved forward to assist others who were wounded while proceeding to their objective. While moving from man to man, he was struck in the right leg by machine gun fire. Although painfully wounded his desire to aid his fellow soldiers transcended all personal feeling. He bandaged his own wound and self-administered morphine to deaden the pain enabling him to continue his dangerous undertaking. Through this period of time, he constantly shouted words of encouragement to all around him. Then, completely ignoring the warnings of others, and his pain, he continued his search for wounded, exposing himself to hostile fire; and, as bullets dug up the dirt around him, he held plasma bottles high while kneeling completely engrossed in his life saving mission. Then, after being struck a second time and with a bullet lodged in his thigh, he dragged himself over the battlefield and succeeded in treating 13 more men before his medical supplies ran out. Displaying resourcefulness, he saved the life of 1 man by placing a plastic bag over a severe chest wound to congeal the blood. As 1 of the platoons pursued the Viet Cong, an insurgent force in concealed positions opened fire on the platoon and wounded many more soldiers. With a new stock of medical supplies, Sp6c. Joel again shouted words of encouragement as he crawled through an intense hail of gunfire to the wounded men. After the 24 hour battle subsided and the Viet Cong dead numbered 410, snipers continued to harass the company. Throughout the long battle, Sp6c. Joel never lost sight of his mission as a medical aidman and continued to comfort and treat the wounded until his own evacuation was ordered. His meticulous attention to duty saved a large number of lives and his unselfish, daring example under most adverse conditions was an inspiration to all. Sp6c. Joel's profound concern for his fellow soldiers, at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty are in the highest traditions of the U.S. Army and reflect great credit upon himself and the Armed Forces of his country.

[BEagle]

'All soldiers are green'

An excellent motto - it should be briefed at all arrival courses at training establishments!

:ok:

[Training Risky]

How thoughtless of you, that is so offensive to the under-represented Martian community in HM Forces. I am reporting you to the latest govt Quango for race relations.

Expect a visit from a black, lesbian, differently-abled social worker tomorrow. (Just make sure you remove the ramp from outside your office.)

[BEagle]

Oops - apologies to the Mekon and all his Venusian Treens!

Which will, of course, mean absolutely nothing to those who never read the Eagle, eh Digby?

When should I expect your girlfriend to call tomorrow then, Training Risky?

[Jordan D]

Sorry, slightly off topic, but to go back to the rowing thread a few posts back up, I can support the point made. I'm Asian, though never ever play the race card, as its just not something I would do, but there is a truism when you say there are hardly any non-Whites in rowing. Every regatta/race I go to, you'd be hard pressed to find a non-White, be it Oriental, Asian, Black or whatever. Maybe its the 0615 outings (with lots of ice here in Edinburgh!).

Jordan

[jamino]

SASLESS it wasnt a black thing m8 there were lots of good coloured soldiers in my regiment too , i dont have a problem with anyones colour or beleif,thats not the point here ,the point is that since year dot, the forces have had to some extent abuse and bigotry towards those who dont conform,dont flatter yourselves,it isnt a colour thing, nore is it new,it was institutionalised before we even colonised England2..ooops... did i say England 2.....i mean america:ok:

[SASless]

No problem Jams....once we served up the eviction notice.....and cleaned the place out....the new occupants never cared who had been there before.

Reckon the old landlords may be a bit miffed with the way the old place turned out but what the heck....that is how it goes sometimes.;)

[tablet_eraser]

Jamino

So we should accept racism? Yes, there has always been racism and bigotry in the Armed Forces, same as in society - that doesn't mean it should be tolerated. The US Forces and HMAF have been generally tolerant of different races for a long time. SASless's example is excellent, as is the fact that HMAF have employed Gurkhas for a very long time. Anyone who has read Colin Powell's autobiography will agree with that. Racism prevents people like Colin Powell from achieveing his full potential, and I think we should be pleased that the Armed Forces do not tolerate it.

On the other hand, Powell says:
And Lord help anyone who strays from accepted ideas of political correctness. The slightest suggestion of offence toward any group, however innocently made, and even when made merely to illustrate a historical point, will be met with cries that the offender be fired or forced to undergo sensitivity training, or threats of legal action. (Powell, C, A Soldier's Way: An Autobiography, Random House (1995), p.610)
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and no-one should be prevented from expressing it. Likewise, no-one should be disadvantaged for any personal attributes that do not effect operational effectiveness. There should be a massive difference between expressing an opinion and unfairly discriminating against someone - one should be encouraged, the other curbed. Giving someone a shoeing at a regt depot because of their colour, sexuality, height, muscial taste, whatever, amounts to discrimination and bullying and should never be tolerated; we don't need bullying to prove ourselves as leaders or warfighters, just professionalism and toughness.

[ORAC]

Musical taste? When did that creep onto the PC agenda?

[tablet_eraser]

Just trying to illustrate how absurd it is that people can be picked on for, to cite jamino's example, something as trivial as having a big nose.

That said, people who like R&B probably should get a kicking anyway... :E

[teeteringhead]

And of course Colin Powell's family went to USA rather than UK from Jamaica (?) virtually on the flip of a coin. And didn't Powell (or was it someone talking about him) say if he'd joined the British Army he might have finished up as a WO in a Corps rather than CDS.

Of course, that was then....

[Zoom]

BEagle
I thought all soldiers were brown(jobs).

Many years ago a most likeable black pilot on my outfit was asked 'Hey, XXX, is your wife black too?' He replied 'No, I married a pinkie.' A rather neat retort, I always felt.

[BEagle]

Not nowadays, I suspect that the colour brown might be construed as racially offensive to some.

Whereas green only pisses off the Treens from Venus!

PS - Your girlfriend hasn't turned up yet, Training Risky!

[tablet_eraser]

I heard a story some time ago concerning equality at Neatishead. The Station's self-styled "resident lesbian", an SAC, was introduced to the new Adj, who happened to be of black indian extraction. SAC x had, on occasion, come across as the sort of individual who would try to use her sexuality to gain an advantage in the EO-inspired atmosphere of perceived 'positive discrimination'.

SAC: "Hello, Sir, I'm the Station's resident lesbian."
Adj (after a pause, and with considerable sarcasm): "Hi, I'm black. Shall we see who gets promoted first?"

Then there's the old story about the word 'coloured', hated by all of my black, Indian and Sri Lankan friends. The story goes that a white equality adviser had been speaking to a black South African fellow, studiously referring to him as "coloured". After a while, the South African interrupted: "Coloured? I'm dark brown, all year round. When you're warm, you're pink. When you're cold, you're blue. After you've been in the sun, you go brown; and when you're sick, you look green. And you have the audacity to call ME coloured?"

And my favourite, glorious example of someone trying to be studiously anti-racist and falling flat. Princess Michael of Kent had insulted some black diners at a New York restuarant by allegedly telling them to "go back to the Colonies". In an interview, she said:
I am emphatically not a racist. Once, I even spent a day dressed as a half-caste to see what it was like.
Nice try, Pushy!

[jamino]

everyone keeps bangin on about colin powell,ill give him his due...if he could tell me off the top of his head what every tape on his battle dress was for...i win me thinks!:ok:

[FJJP]

One of the most fabulous characters it has ever been my privilege to serve with is Jamaican. We go way back to the V Force of the 60s. Latterly, when I was Flt Cdr and he a spec aircrew Sqn Ldr, we served on the same Sqn, flew together and delighted in taking the p*ss out of the PC brigade.

You should have seen the expression on the faces of the new youngsters on the Sqn when he used to call me his 'White Honkey' and I called him my 'Black Bastard'!

In nearly 40 years I never witnessed or heard of a single case of racial abuse in the Royal Air Force. Trouble with all these things, is that a single, isolated, uncharacteristic incident is so rare as to be headline news. And the PC brigade milk it for all its worth.

After all, it's the only time that anyone takes any notice of these characterless pratts.

[oldfella]

Agree with the last post. Over 30 years have not seen racism in light blue uniform. Have also seen the "honkey/black" joke played in front of an audience just to see the reaction in these pc times.

Always a danger though that what one sees as banter can cause offence to another but, in my experience, colour, race, size, age etc has been the source of banter well given, well received and well returned. It has to be mutual with no malice given or taken - probably impossible in this pc age where anyone else can probably report someone for a overheard remark.

[Training Risky]

BEagle - sorry for my tardy reply. I am still stunned by the top quality of your banter... I don't know what to say!

Reaching for the EMERGENCY BANTER SW.... 5.....4....3.....2....1....

.... "xxxx xxx !"