When Will The Vc-10 Leave?

[truckiebloke]

ITS JUST A THOUGHT BUT WHILST THE VC-10 GUYS ARE SAT IN BAHRAIN ON CLOSE TO A 1000 POUNDS A MONTH, IN APARTMENTS , WITH A NICE POOL ETC ETC, THE REST OF US MULTI ENGINE, HELICOPTER AND FAST JET GUYS ARE GETTING NOTHING.

NOT A MOAN, BECAUSE I LOVE MY EXTRA FEW POUNDS A DAY WHEN IM IN BASRA, BUT WHEN I HEAR THAT THE VC-1O GUYS ARE COMPLAINING THAT THEY HAVE TO DOUBLE UP ON ROOMS, I FEEL QUITE ANNOYED.

DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW MUCH IT COSTS TO BE IN BAHRAIN?IM SURE THEY WERE THERE ON INVITE, BUT IS THIS STILL THE CASE?AND IF NOT, HOW MUCH IS IS COSTING IN LANDING FEES,NOISE CHARGES ETC ETC

JUST A THOUGHT!:ok:

[hyd3failure]

Oh God. Here we go again! What is it with you lot and your allowances?

[truckiebloke]

not moaning about allowances, if you read the topic correctly - just readdressing the balance a little bit and wondering how the oh so shiny and lovely vc-10 has got away with it for so long!!

[BEagle]

When you've learned to read, get hold of a copy of Strike Command Accounting Instructions.

When you've read it, perhaps you won't need to make such naiive posts.

[Eye off the ball]

Bitching about other fleets, that's just what we need. And on a public forum too; I'll bet the tabloids keep an eye on these pages.

In this particular case, no one has been 'getting away' with anything. I'll bet you complained in the dinner queue at school because the other boys got more pototoes than you.

There are bigger problems in the air force right now than this. The 'your det is better than my det' griping seems a bit unnecessary.

[StopStart]

Sorry tb, but I can never really begrudge anyone on another fleet legally getting a good deal no matter how crap mine is at the time. If they then want to whinge about doubling up or about the champagne being flat then fine, let 'em. It's not going to make any difference to mine or your life so let em get on with it.

Frankly, good luck to em I say - it's all swings and roundabouts. I spent the last "war" in rather opulent ;) surroundings and did rather well out of it thank you. The flip side is I now get to live in a tent and pick weevils out of sausage rolls.

[reynoldsno1]

Jeez, they were having the same moan at Masirah in 1974.....

[Engineer]

reynoldsno1

Just proves that nothing changes over the years :ok:

[moggiee]

Always had to put up the the FJ and rotary boys (not to mention ALL Pongos) bleating about what a soft deal the truckies got.

Well, serves them right for getting into the wrong jobs!

Seriously, if they're entitled to it then the issue is not "why have they got it?" but "what can we do to get it?".

Never try to take a decent package off the chaps who have it - just aspire/lobby to get the same deal for yourselves.

[santiago15]

Never try to take a decent package off the chaps who have it

.........In a nutshell!!!

[allan907]

The rules is the rules. If someone can exploit them (sorry - interpret them to their advantage) then so much the better. Makes up for all the other crap that comes ones way.

For example: How many people go to the dining car of the train and have a luvverly meal, with wine, add 10% for the steward and claim for that - or instead are satisfied with a miserly Rate 5 and buy your own over-priced stale burger from the buffet counter? (Might have changed a bit since 93 but check with your friendly blunty)

[The Swinging Monkey]

truckiebloke,

come on old boy, get a life.
Just 'cos someone in this air farce is doing ok is not a reason for you to slag them off. If you are a truckie, then go join their fleet!! Doh!!

We can all sit here and bleat about one fleet getting better asccomodation/rates blah than someone else, but hey, so what?

Live with it my dear chap

Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey

[BEagle]

Having had a tour on Vulcans, I was reasonably au fait with the entitlements laid down for STC aircrew.

This one time, not at band camp but on det at Gutersloh, with the F4 outfit I was on at the time, the resident Blunties at Gut intended to stitch us up like kippers - accommodating us off-base but expecting everyone to get on a bus every night to eat at the OM, for example. This was clearly bolleaux, so I volunteered to the DetCo to sort it out...

When we got to Gut, the ProjO tried to bull$hit us at the arrival brief - and was soon cornered by the Herc gang and myself until he relented and agreed to Form 95s plus the proper scale of allowances for those off base....

When we got back, I got everyone into the briefing room, handed out the 6663s etc and told them how to fill them in. It was like dealing with sulking children.."Why do we need all this cr@p?". Eventually when all was done, off to the mnoey folk at Handbrake House - and they all got another £40 or so as the Gut Blunties had given us the wrong rate!

Were they grateful? Were they hell. Just moaned about a little form filling even though they then got what they were entitled to.. If that's the general attitude, well, enjoy doubling up in your tents or whatever...

And the nice German chap in whose hotel we stayed gave me an extremely nice bottle of wine as a thank you for sorting all the bills etc!

At the end of the day, what you are entitled to is laid down and is NOT specific to a/c type. But the thing to watch is that some beancounter hasn't written independent detachment accounting instructions stitching you up - if he has, you're screwed. NEVER accept accommodation which is not 'commensurate with home base entitlement' - do you double up in your OM or Sgt's Mess? No? Well neither should you when away - UNLESS there is literally nothing else available. And the blackmail applied to some forces "You're not going unless you double up on base" is totally contrary to the rules. Came across a Nimrod crew in Bermuda who'd been subjected to that - whilst we, of course, lived very nicely in the Bermudiana Hotel :ok:

[BANANASBANANAS]

The Nassau Beach Hotel on cable Beach in the Bahamas was quite nice for a week in 1985 when we dropped in in our shiny VC10. The manager apologised for only having the "more expensive penthouse suites avaialble." Step forward First Officer with HM AmEx card. "That will do nicely sir."

I dont suppose that happens too much nowadays!

[truckiebloke]

we all get certain perks when we go away , with the odd states trip etc etc... i just think that when everybody else is based in the ****e holes it is kinda annoying to see the vc-10 guys spending tens of thousands of pounds and then COMPLAINING about it!!

it would be nice to see that money redirected to making better facilities at basra,giving extra time for phone calls home(instead of 20 mins a week) or even extra protection around the base...

its just a thought.......

[StopStart]

No but seriously, who cares?

I somehow don't think that BZN is going to spunk it's T&S budget on extra sandbags for Basrah so bleating about it won't change anything. Except you've probably got some Sun scumbag winging his way to the ME for the next expose.....

Anyway, good luck to em I say, even if they are whinging. It just makes the fall even harder when it's their turn to pick weevils out of co-pilots :ok:

[Ray Dahvectac]

Step forward First Officer ...

Do we/Did we HAVE "First Officers" on the shiny 10 fleet? Why aren't they lumbered with co-pilots like the rest of the ME world? :suspect:

[BEagle]

VC10 co-pilots have always been trained to First Pilot standard. They have never been mere flap-snatching wireless operators.

Neither have they ever been termed 'First Officers'.

Not sure about the Nassau Beach, but certainly the Royal Hawaiian and Hawiian Hilton hotels were better than the Outrigger Malia. And the brand-new Ford Thunderbird coupes we were given made jolly nice hire cars*......

Enjoying your tent, truckiebloke?


*There was a reason for that. The average American lard-arse couldn't squeeze into the back of a 2 door car, so the hire car companies were making silly offers to get rid of the things. And we graciously helped them out - purley to foster international relations, of course!

;)

[buoy15]

Beags

I see you are still using the old STC accounting instructions card to defend your mates who abuse the system.
You may or may not recall the incident in Italy about 13 years ago (ish) when a hire car, payed for by HM, crashed about 150 miles from the det base.

The driver - a pilot, and his passenger - a lady of the night, escaped with minor injuries

This incident made the press and infuriated the then CAS who wrote the most outstanding bollocking letter I have ever read - went on to mention things like:

"Obviously too much time for R&R"
"Need to tailor detachment to meet the exercise profile"
"Overborne with non-essential personnel"
"Blatant dis-regard of T&S rules"

He then included new guidelines which mentioned

50km radius for meals and R&R
Acceptable minimum standards of accommodation for operations, even if it meant doubling up
Re-assessment of allowances to meet expectations in theatre
All units in support are subject to the instructions of the published OpOrder
etc. etc.

He then concluded that this letter was authority to supplement or supercede STC instructions, if neccesary, to stay within the budget of a detachment.

This sounded like a death knell to us, because the Kipper Fleet, and most others, were doing it anyway

Years have passed Beags, and as you will see from another thread, the shineys still choose to ignore it - hence the VC10 shirtsleeve chappie got the bill for his crew staying downtown Miami during a Rum Punch det, well after the letter was published.

Sorry Beags - when I see a det of 300+, all ranks, living and doing in "achievable" conditions - desert or snow - I rankle when a Vickers Fun Bus, Tristar or C17 comes along and demands status treatment.

What Air Force are they in?

Still trying to love many and trust a few - but I will always paddle my own canoe:ok:

[BEagle]

Hundreds of people suffer in squalor because one FJ idiot abuses the system?

That CAS was totally out of order - a vindictive backlash which was very probably unlawful.

Never had any problem with down-route accommodation - it was always sorted by RAFLOs and we just went where we were told. I've only ever pulled the 'This isn't good enough for us' card once - at some squalid tip in Barry which the so-called organisers of the St Athan air show had arranged for us. It was full of remand prisoners..... RAFLOs - or their agents - had reasonable memories; hence those who thanked them and did as asked normally got a pretty good deal; idiots like the thieving Nimrod rear crew in Lajes who caused an international incident got all they deserved from then on. Hence 10% Carlos always looked after the fighter and tanker crews staging through Lajes - and gave the worst accommodation to others. Tough. And the Presidential suite at the Nasce Agua was really quite nice - just thought you'd like to know.

But there are some idiots who actually whinge about nightstopping on base in Akrotiri... I see no snags - cheap Mess and a quick taxi to/from a typical "Who halloumi, who liver" kebab house. Much more fun than being in some boring hotel miles away at the wrong end of an MT coach trip!

Commensurate with home base entitlements. Nothing more, nothing less. But, as a Jaguar boss said about accommodation in Dhahran in GW1, "Any idiot can be uncomfortable"!

[buoy15]

Beags

The CAS was not vindictive, he knew what was going on and tried to give more guidance to his staff which was well within his remit - hence the visit to Rum Punch by Command Accounts.

More to the point, the poor old RAFLO only knew it was sorted when you told him is was sorted when you said where you were going - Rank? get it? Even Carlos at Larges knew that!

By the way, the incident with the Nimrod crew was in Keflavik - it was a drunk groundie who tried to steal a picture. I was there and spent 5 hours with the Security people through the night in a plea bargain to ensure we got airborne on time next day.

How come you did not respond to the particular points made by CAS in my last reply?

Touched a nerve?

[allan907]

I well remember an MOD staff visit to Hong Kong to explain the revised airmen aircrew pay structure (1988). Even though I had written the paper the RAF had not been included on the tri-service + treasury visit until I kicked up a fuss and got us included. By that time the hotel accommodation in Kowloon had all been taken up and we were told that we would have to go to the Mess at HMS Tamar.

Was I p*ssed off or what? I fought bloody hard to get hotac but to no avail. However, when I got to HK and saw the absolutely splendiferous accommodation at Tamar I was rapt. Every visit to HK thereafter I tried to get in to Tamar but with the drawdown it was impossible so had to put up with hotac in Kowloon!

Moral - not all turds smell of sh*t!

[buoy15]

To get back to the origin of the thread

"When will the VC10 leave?"

When the arsehole with the red arm band (UKMAMS) says so!

[Blacksheep]

I once watched a punch up in the Blue Spitoon between a VC10 captain and a 205 Sqn Shack skipper - they came to blows over accommodation. The VC10 chap was upset because his corporal 'Spoons' were given non-aircon rooms. 205 Sqn's standing SAR detachment were in similar accomodation, long term not overnight, and were sharing into the bargain. (rooms not beds). In those days VC10s were really shiny ("I say, are you a REAL Squadron Leader, or just a VC10 pilot) so I'm ever so pleased to see that, even though they are now clapped out relics of a bygone age, they can still earn extra privileges. ;)

Then there's all those sailor chappies who serve in 'hot-bunk' ships and boats. Nice work if you can get it...

[BEagle]

Well there must have been more than one thief on the Nimrod force, buoy15, because I was at Lajes when the incident occurred and it caused a lot of trouble....

"Obviously too much time for R&R" - Who has 'R&R' down route? The schedules are driven by the crew fatigue regulations.
"Need to tailor detachment to meet the exercise profile" - Stating the bleeding obvious.....
"Overborne with non-essential personnel" - All seats in the VC10 are regulated, no-one goes on a 'jolly' at the tax payer's expense.
"Blatant dis-regard of T&S rules" - Unlike in the AT/AAR force which applies them correctly. In any case, they are rigorously audited.

"He then concluded that this letter was authority to supplement or supercede STC instructions, if neccesary, to stay within the budget of a detachment." - i.e., he gave carte blanche to the beancounters to screw everyone ever since. Fine for the hair shirts who revel in self-punishment, but hardly conducive to morale.

"More to the point, the poor old RAFLO only knew it was sorted when you told him is was sorted when you said where you were going - Rank? get it? Even Carlos at Larges knew that!" - Complete and utter bolleaux. Lajes, by the way.

"When I see a det of 300+, all ranks, living and doing in "achievable" conditions - desert or snow - I rankle when a Vickers Fun Bus, Tristar or C17 comes along and demands status treatment." - Green-eyed monster apart, how do you know what the 'Vickers Fun Bus, Tristar or C17' crew have been doing or what they're going to be doing next - and when? Accommodation rules are laid down for a very sound reason - flight safety and the avoidance of crew fatigue. Having once seen the asburd itinerary which some AEO captain of a Nimrod tried to inflict on the crew with a severe case of press-on-itis (after having already been u/s for hours at ASI, then u/s on take-off from DKR, returned to DKR, then tried to launch again for KSS after several hours fixing the snag.....), it's something which other forces clearly didn't use to bother about.

Certainly no-one should demand anything more than their normal entitlement. But if it's available, it's only reasonable that the crew should be allocated to it.

Not a problem for me these days, of course. If they need me to go somewhere, the customer either provides or picks up the tab for travel and subsistence; I just send in the invoice with receipts at the end of the month and it gets paid.

[Mobile Muppet]

Buoy15,

Please elaborate on your last statement ref an arsehole.

[B9]

- "Overborne with non-essential personnel" - All seats in the VC10 are regulated, no-one goes on a 'jolly' at the tax payer's expense.-

Except, perhaps, the group of Military Tourists who arrived in Muharraq, on the pretext of scoping the FSTA but probably for some Christmas shopping in the Souk, only to find themselves caught up in Op Desert Fox.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Here we go, another Mover slagging match inbound.

Oh what fun..............

[bluntie]

A slagging match merry go round!. BORING!. Can't we have topics on real issues, or am I being over optimistic.?

[buoy15]

Good spin Beags - didn't think you would bite so hard

Your right - Lajes Field actually - LPPA

Mobile

Sqn deployment from ISK including the Staish and Sqn boss

Fg Off UKMAMS gets on the bus

"Right listen out! - none of you are allowed off the bus until I say so - when it's time to embark, you are to stay close together in single file and follow instructions from me - is that clear?"

This was then followed by a diatribe regarding DAC and batteries in personal stereos

When he was asked what the Compass Safe Distance was for a VC10, he said he would ask the Loadmaster - good answer eh?

I thought a better approach could have been

"Good morning gentlemen - we are running slightly behind having to load spares- could I please ask you to wait on the bus -I will keep you updated on the progress and we will try and get you away as soon as possible - any questions? Thank you"

Is that ok?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Bouy 15

LPLA - perhaps!! :cool:

[buoy15]

Roland - well spotted - just checking

Remembered as the - Large Portuguese Landing Area

Wonder how many truckies ever "resided" in the Portuguese Mess? (The splendid white building overlooking the visiting ac apron)

[Tonkenna]

As a matter-of-fact I have stayed there... passing through on a VC10!!

Having just got back from Bahrain... what a load of incorrect twaddle this thread is based on.

As has been said, why always aim for a common low standard of living when on det... we should all be working to improve things everywhere we have to go.

I have no doubt you have had good times in certain places truckiechap, and certainly would not have given them up cause some one else may have been sharing a room. Get over it...

Tonks

[Eye off the ball]

what really helps our (the Air Force's) case is people like bouy 15 with ill informed opinions and others with opinions many years out of date.

Come on guys, we're all better than this. We al have stories that sound good in the bar but turn out, on further investigation, to amount to very little.

There's a story about every Nimrod/VC10/C130/GR&/GR!?Jag etc and I feel that airing what you think may be dirty linen in public is a p*ss poor show.

Ther's alway someone better or worse off than you and to complain about it grips my sh*t. Live and let live or seek other challenges.

[Uncle Ginsters]

How is it we always end up in these childish pi$$ing contests?

Every fleet has had a good det at times, every fleet (now more often than ever!) has had sh!te ones.

If the guys on the Mighty 10 are in Bahrain, it's because their jet has the legs to be there and still do the job.

As for your inference to Noise fees - The last figures that i saw showed the 3* to be causing far more bell-ringing than the VC10 (due to the Noise Reduction procedures used) at shiny airports around the world.

At the end of the day, as has already been said:

"any fool can be uncomfortable"! And we all work from the same rulebook. Who's the fool there?
Any fleet has miserable old duffers that complain at anything presented to them - just read most of Pprune's threads ;)

We're all on the same side here, let's not forget that. :ok:

Uncle G

[hyd3failure]

And we all work from the same rulebook Yeah right. So when was the last time a truckie had to sleep in the Hangar on a campbed? When was the last time a truckie has to sleep in the back of the aircraft cos we'd "run out " of camp beds?

[glum]

Is that just because truckies boss wasn't doing his job?

[StopStart]

hyd3 - if you drag your pointless ass out to Basra you might spot a variety of truckie crews living on camp beds.

Chimp

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Slept in the back of Albert in Kuwait:{ Slept on a camp bed in Masirah with Albert parked across the way:( Plenty of folks currently sleeping on crap beds in Basra...........so perhaps you should adopt the "ill informed tw@t" mantle hyd3f@ckwit:}

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Lionel Lion]

This must rate as one of the most pointless threads on prune for a long while. Anyway, a tent is far more comfortable than the dire O's mess at Brize

[hyd3failure]

ok ok..Im sorry... so you slept on a campbed in Basra and and masirah and Kuwait etc etc...hang on, hang on...Why didn't you book into the Sheraton in Basra..? Was the Hilton in Kuwait full?

Oh, I get it. Im sorry. You only sleep on campbeds when there isn't a plush hotel to go to. Yep, I understand now. and thats why the statement "we all work from the same rule book" isd B**llocks. Only the pizza boys work with that rule book.

[crossbow]

This isn't pointless. This is great. This is a rare chance for aircrew to have a dig at the Pizza boys and their flying garbage trucks. More of it I say .....

[LunchMonitor]

Hyd 3
You only sleep on campbeds when there isn't a plush hotel to go to

You are correct! Most International airports object to us putting tents up on the edge of the apron, no matter how much we try and explain that we are military and by definition therefore wish to make life as difficult for ourselves as possible.

.So when was the last time a truckie had to sleep in the Hangar on a campbed?

I've just spent a fortnight on a campbed in a HAS at Honington and very comfy it was too.

When was the last time a truckie has to sleep in the back of the aircraft cos we'd "run out " of camp beds?

Sculthorpe last year.

Any other questions?

LM

[crossbow]

Tee Hee...keep going Hyd3....there riled now...

[TurbineTooHot]

Hyd3

Since I've started posting I seem to have aimed the lion's share of my more bile filled retorts at you.

Are you a fisherman(no pun twards RN intended)?

Do you post with the view to stoke the fires and generate a little dicussion.

If you are the resident devil's advocate, fair nuff.

However, I sometimes get the impression that you are just an objectionable s:mad: t.

There I've said it.

BTW. If there's a decent room going at a nice gaff, for god's sake stay in it. Take what you are given. I don't begrude any crew on any fleet making the best of what they've got where they are.

We are all volunteers after all!!!

[hyd3failure]

Oh come on guys. Its just a little banter, I didnt mean to upset anyone and Im sorry if I made you cry.





:{ :{ :{

[Training Risky]

Yep, Hyd3Failure, you sound like a waste of training, salary, oxygen and DNA.

Go join the long-haired armed forces in NATO.

[Triple Hooked]

Seconded. Hyd3, you are an embarrassment to all of us.

Sling your hook.

[hyd3failure]

Right, thats it. Now youve made me cry. Im off to harass someone else.

Bye....:{ :{ :{

S'en Vat'en Guerre












:ok:

[BootFlap]

Time on RN Carriers - Yes

Time in Tents (Sandy Places) - Yes

Time in Tents (Wet Places) - Yes

Time in Tents (Cold Places) - Yes

Time in Moderately Comfortable Hotels - Yes

Time in Plush Hotels - Yes

All of the above can be measured in months gusting into years! Worst place ever? Masirah................. all because of a complete t:mad: t of an adminer who couldn't get his head out his arse for long enough to smell the coffee. It's not where you are, it's who you're with!

No place like home. (For the benefit of Mrs Flap!):ok: :ok: