The Ryanair pledge

[vlad-the-inhaler]

I thought it may be nice for all Wannabes, fATPLs and those sympathetic to the plight of aviation to make a symbolic pledge of avoidance, not to work for Ryanair.

"I (say your name) pledge to heed the advice of seasoned aviators and cabin crew who have served Ryanair over the years and not fly for Ryanair. I will not sign up and pay for their type rating then get paid peanuts for six months.
I will not pay for cups of tea and water while working for a company that showed profits in excess of 201 million Euros at the end of last quarter.
I want to be a pilot not a slave "

There you go, wasnt hard was it?
Now all we have to do is keep our word and our brothers in bondage will be freed!

[BoeingMEL]

If you ever get there Vlad, one thing a career in aviation will teach you is to think things through before you speak/act/jump. (delete as necessary). So you persuade all your Brit wannabes to boycott Ryanair.......... and leave all those lovely RH seats to your European brothers! Dear God man! bm

[CanAV8R]

I agree with the inhaler.

Market is opening up. I just landed a jet job on a bigger machine than a 738, it cost me 0 pounds and I get paid full salary from the first day I drive into the training ground parking lot.

Fly turbo-props and smaller jets first and skip Ryan.

Tell O' Leary to pound sand.

[ritchyh]

Hi

I agree totally with what all of you guys are saying but the problem is I would almost sell my gran to get a job flying a jet. Being paid peanuts and having to even pay for a bottle of water would be nothing compared to the actual flying and building up experience I think. I know it is the wrong attitude to have towards the situation but what else can I do. It would mean I sit back whilst someone else jumps in and gains the experience.:{ I dont really want to work for Ryanair as much as the next person for the reasons laid out but having only 250hrs is there any other alternative? I have spent the last four months (other people a lot more)being told sorry no vacancies.

I am sure everyone can understand the situation a lot of us are in - Catch 22 and I think Mr O'Leary knows that:(

Appologies if i sound arrogant in any way, I dont mean to.

Thanks

[lscajp]

ritchyh, what you don't realise (I so hope you do) is that so many people on here are bitter unemployed idiots.

Many of which do have better things to do, however, some, given their attitudes, have nothing else to do.

I commend your attitude in thinking any job is better than no job. Experience is the best thing you can offer an employer, be it through your quals or through your RECENT time in the air.

Well done O'Leary, he's a businessman. Never forget that this industry is run by them, not pilots.

[jamestkirk]

Qoute : "well done o'leary, he's a businessman".


iscajp:

Are you a businessman?

Don't congratulate somone for alledgedly:

1. Lowering moral of his employees.
2. Questionable customer service.
3. Trying to force pilots into slavery
4. Airing that he wants to get F/O's to work for free (some would be stupid enough to do it)

I wonder how much more profitable Ryanair would be if they had nothing but good national press.

Congratulaye a businessman who runs a a business that motivates, developes and pro-actively ebcourages it's workforce. Most experienced managers would agree this is a vital practise for long term success.

Looking at profit only, will eventually cause problems in one way or another.

[lscajp]

jamestkirk,

Obviously, I do agree with you. However, so long as he (O'Leary) complements the legal vs. ethical arguement then he is on the right path. (Make sure you act in a legal fashion before you ensure you act ethically).

C

[RVR800]

I reckon aviation is going the same way that manufacturing has gone; that is to say that aggressively reducing costs is seen as the only way forward.

This whole flying game relies on pilot subsidy, all MOL has done make the subsidy even greater from pilots to Ryanair - hes just doing whats right for his business

He will get away with it as long as fATPL supply exceeds demand i.e. forever

This trend for pilots to pay all their training costs has been made
possible by the low-interest rates that we pay (AT THE MOMENT)

If interest rates rise then he may have a problem - but that will probably coincide with a slowdown in demand anyway

[Touch'n'oops]

I blame the Customers!!!!!!!!!:}:}:}

If they did not put up with such poor travelling conditions, then Ryanair would have to change or go bust.

Just out of interest how does everyone feel about Easyjet's treatment of employees?

[Baron buzz]

Travelling conditions? I dont understand that one at all. Conditions should be linked to expectation and cost. Travelling conditions at Ryanair far exceed my expectations as regards a 0.99p sector. I get a seat, which is more than i get on a train or bus sometimes and get to go a whole lot further..... Dont like it, dont fly them.

I also dont think that young, low houred pilots joining Ryanair are destroying the industry. Nor do I think that Ryanair management are destroying the industry. People can make choices and decide to join or not. For me personally, i would join. Have a hard working first year on brand new aircraft, for yes, little reward. But think of the prospects after that. A couple of years later, and command, more money and if you really dont like it, the option of leaving. Whats wrong with that? And, whats the difference between that and not working for 18 months to get the licence in the first place? I would rather take the Ryanair option than look back in ten years and have taken no option....

[Maxiumus]

Ok Baronbuzz, do tell us where you plan to go after your year of slavery? Myself, and most of my colleagues, would love to know where the openings are for those of us who desperately want to leave. Because a) not exactly a whole host of 737 jobs out there, its all Airbus these days and b), far more importantly, other airlines don't want ryan pilots, as it makes ryan seem like a good training ground, which would only encourage more fools to fly with us for less and further undercut everyones elses salary.

Why are wannabes so incapable of listening to advice of those who have already walked the rocky path?


"I would almost sell my gran to get a job flying a jet"
"Being paid peanuts and having to even pay for a bottle of water would be nothing compared to the actual flying and building up experience "

Do you really have no idea how little time it takes for the flying novelty to wear off when you are getting treated like $hit? Do actually have any idea what its like to have to borrow money from the captain to buy dinner? Or live 3 to a caravan as thats all you can afford?

[Baron buzz]

Well, the first year as the exception, I was under the impression that you started earning ok money year two onwards? Then further increases after that? I know that ALOT of people at Ryanair seem to hate it there, but there also seems to be alot of people that like it. The people that like it seem to just enjoy turning up, flying and going home again. Is this not the case?

[CanAV8R]

Ok I want to jump back into this. For all you young low time people listen clearly. There is more to life than starting your career on a 737, especially with a company who values a piece of coal more than you. If you have not noticed the industry in the UK is starting to boom and every indication is that it will continue to for the next while.

Take it from a guy who just spent 5 years climbing the ladder to get a good airline gig. I have flown almost every turbo type made worldwide and have had a BLAST doing it. Sure it was tough sometimes but I have left turbo prop flying with my head high and the feeling of accomplishment. If I was to do it all over again I would not change a thing.

Mikey O'Leary does not give a crap about anyone but himself. He makes millions of £$£$ of the backs of his people. Go the other route of climbing the ladder the old fashion way. Just look around. FLYBE short big time. Cityexpress feeling the pinch. In fact I would bet ALL turbo prop operators in the UK are feeling the pinch and need FO's badly. Get in while you can and enjoy the ride to the top.....

My two cents.

Oh and Mikey......pound sand you crooked runt.

[Maxiumus]

CanAV8R, you are talking sense here. What the hell is the rush onto a 737? Let me see, TP FO, earning MORE than FR FO from day 1, treated like a human or selling your soul to MOL?? No brainer really.

Baron buzz, moneys better in year 2, but one of my colleagues recently worked out that after taking into account all the costs associated with getting the FR job, including living costs while on the course and loss of income that a proper airline would pay you during training, it will take FNG's 4 years to break even. Yes, thats 4 years of free flying for MOL. Or you could spend that 4 years flying TP's and be in MUCH BETTER position jobwise with a decent airline afterwards, all the while getting reasonably paid and not spending all your money on KY jelly.

As CanAV8R points out, the market is improving in a big way. You don't need to work at Ryanair.

[vlad-the-inhaler]

So there we have it, fellow Wannabes,
Straight from the trenches!
Ryanair FOs are telling you its bad,
Your common sense is telling you the numbers dont add up and you cant pay back loans and survive on whats being offered.
But still some of us are queueing up to join, because we love flying?
I dont love anything enough to do it for free in order to line someone elses pockets by subsidising his airline.
But there we are, just cant wait to get used and abused.
At the end of the day, we all have a choice and there will always be a MOL to take advantage of our lack of unity.
Thanks to all that responded, whatever side of the fence you were on.

[TRon]

Here is the way I look at it. I dont think I am alone!

No amount of people telling you not to do it is going to stop some guy flipping burgers who is offered a gig at Ryanair, HSBC willing to offer a further 23k, and the prospect of starting flying now rather than wait for the next job. Fact is, it is a job which is more than most have. What we have to remember is, you and everybody else there were told from Day 1 when you turned up at the interview from Mr. Dooney that Ryanair f*ck everyone.

I believe he invites anyone to leave who cant accept this.

Once the rose tinted specs have sunk a little, and you start line training I dont think your feet will touch the ground. 100 sectors average to complete line training (60 more than easy, no pay until then, might take 2 months) that's is basically, jut get on with it and if you dont keep up your chopped. That coupled with the fact you self position, have to feed and water yourself and arent getting what you previously were when you were flipping burgers.

I can assure you the fact you are doing the 'dream job' now doesn't seem so appealing.

That coupled with the fact you are an expendable commodity who will be fired if you step out of line, no questions see you in court.

From my very limited standpoint and I will relent the forum to those actually there, Ryanair seems to run on a fear culture, which promotes maximum efficiency from staff but zero loyalty and morale. I barely hear a Western European on the radio now at STN and most I speak to cant wait to move onto bigger and better things. But then you get a command right at the point you could/should jump ship, money is then good and you are trapped as you cant move as no-where else pays as well as Ryanair for the job you are doing and will probably mean a step back to the right seat., after you have started relying on the Captains wage at FR.

I know this golden nugget of being minted at FR is dangled, but I have yet to see it. Once all the sundries have been added up you may be better off, but at what cost?

I know it is nice to get that warm fuzzy feeling that your employer values you, but in the real world that doesn't happen, but when you are treated the way they seem to at FR it is either a testament to our professionalism as Aircrew (and I include Cabin Crew there!) or that we will not stand up and be counted. I'll leave you to decide on that one.

I work at easyJet and whilst they get things wrong, I dont get the feeling I am being shafted, and that management will actually listen to you without telling you to f*ck off afterwards (well not to your face ;) ) even with the rostering 'murmurs' there seems to be developing at the moment they seem to listen and that goes a long way.

I dont think personally there is any easy solution to the problems at FR and as long as there are jobs for low hours guys, there will be takers. Only once they are in, further in debt and reliant on the fact they are down that path with FR on a 737 will the reality set in, that the job isn't really what they expected and the extra money they are 'earning' is paying off their type rating for the next 4 years. Trouble is it is hard to find someone on here or anywhere to say it is crap, as that would seem like they made a mistake, and no-one likes admitting that especially when it is your livelyhood we are talking about. I know some guys/girls love it there, they get paid well, on time and fly new aircraft interesting places. I would hazard a guess that in the majority these guys arent heavily reliant on the money and they havent got 30 years left in the industry and wondering where their next job is going to be.

Only my 5p worth, from a different grass which isn't any greener, just orange!

[highflyer27]

Im half way through my training and working extremely hard. There is no way I am going to let Ryanair be the end result of this. No way.

Il sign up to this pledge. I refuse to work for them. Besides, Im confident I can get another job elsewhere, even if it takes longer.

Ryanair = :yuk:

[Touch'n'oops]

Does safety of the aircraft get compromised?

Because when I was in Jerez I watched Ryanair make some really horendous approaches from base to final at 500ft!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[scroggs]

trouble is it is hard to find someone on here or anywhere to say it is crap, as that would seem like they made a mistake, and no-one likes admitting that especially when it is your livelihood we are talking about.

Sorry TRon, but you're wrong! See this thread: Ryanair Pay (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156187&highlight=Ryanair)

Scroggs

[Shanks]

Well T 'n O, the worst I saw when I was there was an Iberia approach, not going to call them a shoddy outfit because of it!

And I remember a couple of your's AND mine being a bit ...errr frisky ;)

[Mister Geezer]

It puzzles me how we spend lots of time, effort and money to train and get our blue book and after all that blood, sweat and tears it still baffles me how people can aspire to join such a cheap and tacky outfit such as Ryanair when it is clear that new starters are taken advantage of! The job market is very good at the moment so look around and join a proper airline where they will pay you a reasonable wage to fly and not the other way round!

I along with a few mates have always said if Ryanair was the only airline that exists, then we would go back to our old instructing jobs. At least as an instructor I was respected and well treated when compared to Ryanair F/Os!

[hollywood285]

All I can say on this is............Get a good job in IT or something like that, get your PPL and hire a PA-28 at weekends!!! more fun, see alot more and ENJOY FLYING IT!! not being made a slave jumping puddels in 737's!

[spaceman1000]

guys, if you are looking for a job, I have one for you.My chief pilot is looking for slaves.
you will fly from 3 am to 11pm. we do not pay you. I have convinced my boss YOU pay for your hours, so here my rate: 1 hour of airbus or B737 will cost you 355$+VAT .WE do not pay accomodation, hotel, transport, uniform. We have decided to triple the cost of everything just to make you happy.

We have a BIG problem here: there is a shortage of pilot.
so please, apply asap, and dont forget your booklet of check for the 1000$ interview. (paid in advance)....

WELCOME IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!

(OK, it is a bad joke, But I guess I am not very far from the reality)

[GoldenMonkey]

Spaceman, welcome back :{ . You have been truly missed. Looking forward to your contributions :zzz:

[jamestkirk]

MISTER GEEZER : "THE JOB MARKET IS VERY GOOD AT THE MOMENT"

WHERE EXACTLY IS THAT, BECAUSE I HAVE SENT OVER 300 CV'S AND GET SUCH REPLIES AS

1. WE HAVE HAD 3000 APLLICATIONS
2. I GET OVER 100CV'S A WEEK
3. I CAN GET PEOPLE TO FLY FOR FREE
4. YOU GET £2A ROLL OF FILM (AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY)

PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT PLANET YOU LIVE ON MISTER GEEZER AND THE ENTERPRISE AND ME WILL BE THERE AT MAXIMUM WARP! (NO OFFENCE)

On a brighter note:

Remember everyone that the payout for unfair dismissal rose from £12,000 to £50,000 a couple of years back (UK law)

And also remember that you have full employee rights, even while on the initial probationary period.

OK, not much help but bear it in mind when an airline starts treating you like a piece of anal discharge.

Actually, while i am on a medical theme. There is a common perception that there is not a cure for the common cold. This is incorrect. There are actually ver 200 strains of cold that you can catch and you probably will not get the same one twice.

[highflyer27]

jamestkirk,

the market is improving, look at all those guys who have left flybe for greener pastures such as Monarch and easyjet.

Thomas Cook are recruiting, as are Britannia, even British Airways.

Maybe your CV needs a little work..

[Mister Geezer]

Well where do I start.

During the past couple of months I know of 7 people who have got jobs and 4 out of those 7 have got their first commercial job. I also know of 2 others who are in the selection process for their first job. Out of the 4 who got their first break, one was offered 2 jobs at the same time and another chap was invited to 3 interviews - he could afford to turn down one of the airlines. That would of been unheard of early last year! One of those with airline experience had 3 interviews on the go and was in the nice position to pick the best of the three offers! Oh... and I am in the middle of the selection process for a jet job - I currently fly props.

Now if that is not an example of a good employment market - then I would love to see it when it is really good! Remember that if someone leaves then someone has to be taken on to fill that gap!

Edited to say that not one of them has had to pay for their type rating! ;)

[jamestkirk]

PLEASE BEAR IN MIND I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A SLANGING MATCH.

I am pleased that people are getting jobs and the industry 'seems' to be picking up.

I trained with 30 people in all and one has landed a job (but still in the holding pool).

To be fair, I should have said that i am a new starter and looking for the first job. So if you are experienced, we may be talking at cross purposes.

If you did a straw pole of newly qaulified pilots who have been on pprune for the past year, you may find a different story to your own.

I am not being negative. I am on the cusp of sending another million or two CV's to anyone with an aircraft, hovercraft etc.

HIGHFLYER - you cheeky sod:
I am on the third re-write of my CV after getting loads of advice from everyone. (ok, not everyone). It's one page and very theatrical (et tu Brutea) about my flying history. And, it's extremely professionally laid out.

Thanks though for the positive thread about people recruiting and rest assured my 5' by 3' laminated CV will be arriving to all major airlines by silverback geurilla that Vlad-the-Inhaler is kindly organising for us.

[vlad-the-inhaler]

Im with James T on the job market, yet to see anyone I actually know get taken on and its not as though they havent been trying! Its still a tough job market however rose tinted your bifocals are!
However, congratulations to your associates (and I mean it) as the fewer fATPLs there are, the better the chances for the rest of us

[Mister Geezer]

Out of those that I know who have got jobs, half of them have got their first break so things are starting to balance out.

The employment market in the UK has always been different depending on where you live. Even if you think that my previous post was a bit optimistic, it is certainly a sign of things to come!

For those hunting for their first job then I would say concentrate on the prop operators since it is these guys that are going to be very short in the months ahead. Jet operators are sucking up a large number of prop drivers at the moment so gaps will be left wide open!

[Luke SkyToddler]

It is actually happening, and it's not just confined to PPRuNe readers.

Example - our little airline has quite a few people that would make excellent investments for any jet operator - hard working, nice blokes that have a few thousand hours turboprop, have weathered the crap job market of '02 and '03 and I know half a dozen of our captains at least are thinking about moving on.

I know for a fact that Easyjet have benefited from a few of our pilots' cv's recently, along with the usual respectable big jet operators, but it's funny that to a man when Ryanair is mentioned in the crew room there is a collective snort of disgust, along with a muttered chorus of 'pay-£50-to-submit-a-cv', 'you-must-be-joking', 'I'd-rather-work-in-Tesco' etc etc.

Myself, I know that I only drive a little steam driven, analog-instruments turboprop, and yes of course I'd love to move onto big shiny things, but hand on heart if my phone rang now and it was Ryanair on the other end offering me the chance to buy a type rating and work for them, I'd laugh in their ear and hang up.

I'm sure that Ryanair recruiting will really start to suffer as the market continues to recover. Sure there will be a never ending stream of star struck muppets with big cheque books and 200 hours who will continue to queue up and bend over, and nothing that we old hands can say could convince them to do otherwise. But if it's experienced people who have actually got a clue that they're after, I reckon that stream must have all but dried up by now.

I hate to say it but : when the inevitable 737 crash happens, and fatigued, inexperienced crews are identified as a major contributory factor, and Ryanair get the mother of all workovers from the CAA auditors and investigators, I think a few things might be forced to change over there. I'm afraid that's the only message that MOL will hear :(

[highflyer27]

Well said LukeSkytoddler.

I fully agree, there will come a point when it all comes crashing down (no pun intended). You simply cannot treat people as badly as MOL does and expect to get away with it.

If Ryanair offered me a job now, I honestly would not accept it.

I know two pilots who work for Ryanair and both have warned me to stay well away from it, which I firmly intend to do.

[G SXTY]

Excellent post Luke.

I saw the writing on the wall when Ryanair started charging £50 to read your CV. I can’t think of a more blatant p!ss-take, and if everyone at the time had refused to pay up, the idea would have lasted five minutes. But no, the combined ranks of the naive and desperate handed over their cash, and off down the slippery slope we all went.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if MoL’s terms and conditions were the future, I wouldn’t even try to get into this industry. No amount of ‘prospects’ or 737NG time would make me bend over for that man.

However, I don’t believe his Victorian mill-owner conditions will prevail – it’s simply that the job market in recent years has allowed him to get away with it. Ultimately though it’s self-destructive, and I’m sure eventually it will come back and bite him.

[jamestkirk]

G SXTY

Well said and i think your absolutely right.

[Bealzebub]

Following on from this, it is not just one airline but many jumping on the same bandwagon. There is no need to be pouring 200 hour "experienced" pilots into the right hand seat of a jet airliner. Although this has happened to some degree for quite some time, it seems now to be de rigueur for all airlines to adopt this as a widespread recruiting practice.

Traditionally and sensibly, the bulk of First Officers in such an operating environment were recruited from the military and smaller turboprop operators etc. Given the state of the market at any one time, these requirements were either tightened or relaxed depending on supply. Some larger companies offered a limited number of courses to selected candidates with very low experience on the acceptance that there would be a longer learning curve and more intensive training requirements. Such was the status quo.

Then in recent years it seems that one or two companies wondered how to save costs with their newly ordered large fleet of jets. One way was to do away with one of the pilots altogether. Too complicated, and anyway the regulator, manufacturers and insurance companies wouldn't stand for it. Next best suggestion find the bodies who will work for poor wages, pay for their own training, uniforms, even to have their CV's read. Great idea if only it would work, but the military pilots and turbo-prop pilots are not going to jump at this with outstretched arms. No problem, look lower down the food chain at the newly qualified pilots with no real experience. They will jump at the opportunity, and sure enough they were right !

So doesn't this lack of experience merely increase the workload on the captains ? Answer Yes but so what. The calculated odds of an accident or incident that can be largely attributed to this factor is acceptable, so lets take the risk. Another upside is they can then introduce a whole new wage and terms structure that will start with these newbies and gradually work its way through the entire company ! As for the military and turboprop pilots, no problem. They are now in competition with the 200 hour-ers. If they want a job they join on the same deal, like it or lump it ! As for the existing Captains, well gradually over the coming years they will leave, retire and die just as it has always been, and they can then be replaced with our brave new world pilots who of course are much cheaper. Win Win win !!!

But what if there is an accident one day, and the lack of experience on the flight deck becomes a high profile factor ? Well that might be a problem, but the PR guys can deal with that as and when it happens. The problem might come from the regulator ( ha ha !) but more likely from the Insurance companies who have to shoulder this risk. It is a bit of a wonder the LLoyds aviation market hasn't already rumbled this, but they are not the sharpest pencils being far too busy trying to short change the victims of their policies, so in the meantime ... In any event if you look at some previous accidents the insurance payout can actually generate a net profit ! There is nothing like the "free market" when you are in the game early enough to have the ability to distort and manipulate it.

Does any of this strike a chord ?

[G SXTY]

Bealzebub

Yes, unfortunately. And your view of the industry is so bleak and cynical that there must be some truth in it.

[smith]

Bealzebub

Saw a documentary once and there is an insurance risk involved in all flight safety.i.e. If a safety issue comes up and the cost to the airline to implement it is higher than the increased insurance premium by not having it, the airline will go with the cheapest option ie the increased insurance premium.

If FR can satisfy the authorities they are flying within the rules then they will carry on, if an accident happens the insurance will pick up the tab.

I'm not a supporter of FR or MOL in anyway but kinda got thinking when their quarterly results were announced a few days ago of approx £26m, I wonder how much this would have been if they had funded all the type raitings they required.

Just thoughts, not trying to be controversial!!!