Criticising other pilots

[yakker]

On another forum I posted a comment that was removed by the moderator, as it could have been interpreted as criticising the pilot of a forced landing. While that was not my intention, I thought my point was valid. However this had me thinking as to whether pilots do criticise other pilots.

For instance I flew with a friend in his aeroplane for a week clocking some 10 hours each. A week or so after the adventure I asked him what he thought of my flying, and to be honest. He told me my crosswind landing technique could have been better, and proceeded to tell me why. So I asked why he never said at the time, “your work load was high enough at the time” was the reply.

I personally would have preferred he told me at the time, or even after landing, rather than say nothing. I would not have been upset, after all it was his aeroplane, and has hundreds of hours on it, and I would have learnt something about landing that particular type of aircraft.

So do you criticise, and do you accept criticism. Or do you just say to yourself "won't fly with him/her again".

[MLS-12D]

I don't know all of the facts, so can't really comment on your friend's decision to keep quiet.

However, given that he is (apparently) much more experienced than you, I tend to think that you should respect his judgment that you were having sufficient difficulty flying safely and were not ready to cope with a contemporaneous critique.

But don't be downhearted. If he thought that you were a no-hoper ("won't fly with him/her again"), I presume that he would have quickly decided to cease your stick time. The fact that he allowed you to gain 10 hours over a week suggests to me that he is essentially comfortable with your flying, although there is room for improvement (something that is true for everyone, to greater or lesser extent).

Regarding criticism in general: for all but the most arrogant of us, whenever discussing a flying accident there is an inevitable sense of "there but for the grace of God go I". Generally, this is a good thing; however, it should not stop us from analysing what went wrong and how similar accidents could be prevented in the future. Nor do I think that "such things should always be left to the experts" ... even relatively inexperienced pilots are usually competent to consider all of the known facts and decide for themselves how to avoid repeating the other pilot's mistake(s).

I suggest that all criticisms of other pilots involved in accidents should be tempered by the following:

(1) it is extremely rare that all of the facts are known. This means that ex post facto judgments are based upon incomplete information, and may be inaccurate and perhaps unfair;

(2) everyone occasionally makes mistakes: including dangerous one. Some of us make more than others, but we all do it. None of us are perfect, at least not 100% of the time. To air is human, to forgive devine (pun intended).

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well, if you can't accept and process criticism, you probably shouldn't be working with, or flying aeroplanes. But, in reality we are all human beings and nobody likes giving or receiving.


So, there are ways and means, for example:-

(1) Avoid at all costs criticising somebody in front of other people, then it's only the subject and not loss of face.

(2) Try and take a tone like "that was great, but had you considered it might be a little bit better if..."

(3) Avoid wherever possible the word "wrong", I know I'm bad at this (I teach at a local sports club and the chief instructor regularly bollocks me for it - and deservedly so).

And if receiving, remember that (unless they are an arrogant know-it-all, and there are a few of them around) almost certainly somebody is criticising you reluctantly and in the hope that you will find it useful. Be patient and polite when receiving any criticism, it gains you respect and avoids losing friends.

G

[FlyingForFun]

A couple of points:

First of all, I think that, unless we have first-hand experience of a pilot whom we believe is truely dangerous (something which I think is, thankfully, extremely rare), I'd like to believe that none of us really want to criticise other pilots. What we might like to do is use our hindsight - and accept that the pilot in question didn't have this benefit - to figure out what we would do in a given situation, so that all of us can learn from the experience of others. This is 100% a "good thing".

Second point - for whatever resaon, the internet is different to meeting someone face-to-face. The fact that you can not see the person you are talking about generally makes it much easier to talk about them. What that means in this context is that pilots are far more likely to talk about other pilots, whether it be criticising them or, more commonly, using hindsight to talk about their flying, on-line than face-to-face. I think that's a pity - as Yakker says, it would be nice if we felt as comfortable talking about someone's flying face-to-face as we do behind the anonymity of an internet forum. But social etiquette says that it's very often not done.

Criticising other pilots - constructively, of course - has been part of my life since I became a flying instructor. I don't pretend to be an expert at it - I've got a long way to go before I can claim that - but one thing I have discovered is that in most cases, if I say to someone "how do you think that flight went", their reply is almost exactly what I was going to say. That's true of a 10-hour student trying to get to grips with landings, as well as a several-hundred hour pilot doing his bi-annual hour with an instructor.

FFF
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[Aim Far]

I asked him what he thought of my flying, and to be honest

That is the key, surely? You invited the comments. If I am flying with someone, I will let most mistakes pass (unless I think they are putting me in an unsafe position or being too careless with my aeroplane). If they invited comments, they would be told of their mistakes in, hopefully, a fairly constructive manner. If they don't invite comments, they won't get them.

I think its good that you asked your friend what he thought of your flying. It shows you are assessing yourself and being self-critical and want to learn.

[MLS-12D]

Excellent advice above.

On a few occasions, I have had to counsel pilots at my gliding club, usually for doing silly things like thermalling at very low altitude. As Genghis suggests, this is always done in private, and (I hope) in a reasonably tactful manner. So far the response has always been receptive.

In my limited experience, usually when people screw up they are well aware of it, and rubbing their noses in it serves no real purpose. Certainly that has always been my instinctive reaction when I have made piloting mistakes (yes, there have been a few incidents that I'm not proud of :().

[Whirlybird]

There is a huge difference between criticism and trying to help by pointing out that there is a better way of doing something. The first is likely to be perceived as negative, the second as helpful. I fly with the same friend quite often, and we regularly point out things to each other....my landings sometimes leave something to be desired, as does his nav, so we help each other out, and both learn something. But it is neither meant nor perceived as criticism by either of us.

On the other hand, I have flown with people who criticise, and I don't enjoy it, and don't fly with them again. I don't see any point in adding to the stress of flying. And I don't like critical people, either in the air or on the ground.
:(

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Two words

FLIGHT SAFETY

If you dont like taking/listening to constructive criticism then take up golf or some other benign past time. Leave flying to those who are humble enough to admit when they were wrong and take on board advice they are given.

[dublinpilot]

I wouldn't dare critise someone's flying, unless they either asked for constructive critism, or were doing something that I thought was decidedly dangerous.

Many of the people am around when flying, also have few hours in their log book. They are competent, though not always confident. They know their own abilities, and are cautious about going beyond them.

So what if they came in a couple of knots fast, or didn't quite offset all the drift on the crosswind landing? They chances are that they know they didn't quite get it right, and depending on how bad it was, will probably be slightly embarrased about it. The last thing they need is some passenger rubbing it in.

On the other hand if that passenger, is actually someone who's purpose on that flight is to impart knowledge, then that's different. But if you're just along for the ride, then there is no need to be critical. I would think this is even more important when you are significiantly more experienced than the pilot.

As IO540 has pointed out regularly on these forums, those finishing their PPL's don't have the skills to actually do the flying they often want to. They have to slowly push themselves to broaden their experiences and skills, and they really don't need a more experienced passenger telling them about all the little mistakes they made. Chances are they know them themselves, it's just part of the learning curve.

Also, as with many things in life, in aviation there are often more than one right way to do something, put often people tend to assume that their way is the only right way. Even from reading these forums, it can be see that many pilots seem to assume that their way is the only right way, and seem to want to tell that to others. That doesn't really help anyone, unless their advise is sought.

Certainly if I asked someone to come flying with me as a passenger, and afterwards they started to critise my landing, navigation or radio work, they wouldn't be invited along next time.

dp

[S-Works]

Theres never a shortage of criticising on these forums......:D

[Miserlou]

He might have ruined your week if he'd mentioned it at the time.

The question is, of course, what have you done about it?

Sounds like a fair comment to me. He wasn't there as an instructor either so there was no reason to tell you at the time. Any instructor can break a student by overloading them, easiest thing in the world. The trick is keeping them stimulated to peak performance.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The last thing they need is some passenger rubbing it in. Heh! When I'm flying with an instructor, then of course criticism is what I'm paying for, and if I don't get any them I'm not getting my money's worth, am I?

The other week I had a non-pilot passenger; a few feet above the wrong part of the runway, at entirely the wrong speed, particularly sideways, I decided to throw it away and go around: the passenger said "I was wondering when you were going to decide that". Some non-pilot passengers seem to know more about it than others!

[Fuji Abound]

It seems to me the form and shape criticism takes depends on the environment.

In a training environment criticism is vital and expected, constructively and proactively given.

In the same way the same is true of any form of check flight, be it a biannual, group or currency. If you do not expect some criticism either you are a brilliant pilot or the flight will have had little value.

In both these instances because the “exercise” is undertaken in a controlled way it should be relatively easy to end the session with an critique of the flight without causing offence, particularly if you say at the start of the flight you intend to have a short “post mortem” afterwards.

That leaves the “social” flight as being the most difficult in which to criticise the pilot, after all criticism may neither be invited nor expected.

Personally I think if the pilot is obviously doing something dangerous you should criticise. Often this can be made much easier particularly if you are each flying a leg by prefacing the flight with something along the lines “if you are unhappy with anything you see (me do) please tell me”. By inference the other pilot will then expect the same when the roles are reversed.

With the social flight however it seems to me there is a line between things a pilot might do that leave you feeling his performance was not “polished” but was never the less safe and on occasion those things that you feel could cause the pilot a real problem. It is very difficult to know whether if not invited you should criticise the pilot’s lack of polish. Would you criticise someone driving a car with poor gear changes – I suspect not.

[MLS-12D]

In both these instances because the “exercise” is undertaken in a controlled way it should be relatively easy to end the session with an critique of the flight without causing offence, particularly if you say at the start of the flight you intend to have a short “post mortem” afterwards.No (or almost no) military flights are conducted without thorough briefs and debriefs. And the same is true of civilian formation aerobatic teams. As such professional fliers are much more experienced/current than the rest of us, we should all think "if they don't mind constructive criticism, I shouldn't either".

In other words, if it's good policy for the Red Arrows et al., it's also good for us weekend pilots ;).

[Fuji Abound]

"No (or almost no) military flights are conducted without thorough briefs and debriefs. And the same is true of civilian formation aerobatic teams. As such professional fliers are much more experienced/current than the rest of us, we should all think "if they don't mind constructive criticism, I shouldn't either".

That was not the point I was seeking to make.

The point was in the instances I set out the framework is their to give criticism without offence - and that in my view is a good framework to have.

I agree that pilots SHOULD always be ready to accept criticism BUT the reality is some pilots take offence. If the enviroment avoids offence and enables the assessor to feel free to criticise that must be good for all concerned.

I also agree that military pilots / professional display pilots etc may not operate in this enviroment BUT they have almost certainly been pilots for long enough to realise criticism is a good thing.

[dublinpilot]

Gtw,

If you're paying for the instructor, then of course you will want the critism.

However if you're going somewhere, and ask a pilot friend to tag along for the company, then I don't think it's appropriate to comment, unless something is dangerous, and they don't seem to realise it themselves.

I think Fuji has it right, when he says on a social flight if someone does something dangerous then you should comment, but not on their lack of polish. I'd go slightly further by saying that if the dangerous thing was unintended, and the pilot knows that they went wrong, and has learned from it, then there is little point in giving them a hard time over it. It's not as if you are helping in that circumstance. They already know they f:mad: k up

dp

[MLS-12D]

Seems like this is one thread in which all contributors are in agreement.

Brilliant! :ok:

[yakker]

Wow, all in agreement, is that a first?

I for one will take Fuji’s advice and invite constructive criticism. If other more experienced pilots do not impart some of their knowledge, how are we to learn and improve, except by making a mistake and hopefully being able to learn from that mistake. If during a flight my co-pilot thinks something could have been done better, I think they should point this out.

DS “If you don’t like taking/listening to constructive criticism then take up golf or some other benign past time.” The golf course is full of experts ready to tell you where you’re going wrong. You need thicker skin to play golf than fly!

[Whirlybird]

I find the difficulties that some people have with this whole issue to be somewhat strange. :confused: Aren't we all doing this together? Isn't flying a collaborative effort, as much as it can be? After all, the workload is often horrendously high, and we can all use some help. If I take anyone flying, pilot or not, I appreciate them helping out. In the case of a non-pilot, that means looking out of the window and telling me about other aircraft. And if I don't need the information, so be it. In the case of a pilot, it means...anything which might help that I might have missed. If we're gradually losing power, it probably means we're getting carb ice...happens frequently in the C150, and I WANT to be told! If I'm off course, please tell me now, not later. If I'm a bit slow on approach, no harm in telling me, just in case I hadn't noticed...and if I had, that's fine. And if you know a better way of doing something, then that's just great; free instruction is usually welcomed...and if not, I'll say thanks and forget it. I don't see any of these things as criticism; I'm not perfect, and an extra brain and pair of eyes can be useful.

OTOH, if a passenger is unecessarily demanding that I do things his way, and making out that my flying is bad because I don't, then I won't put up with it...unless I am actually doing something dangerous. If he constantly points out that I'm half a mile off course, when I've made it clear that I don't care that day if I'm flying that precisely, then he's being unpleasant and unhelpful. If I've landed perfectly safely and he decides to have a post mortem on my crosswind technique, he ought to pick up pretty quickly if I want to know about it or not. And any pilot should know that talking ought to be kept to a minimum, and only essentials, at times of high workload.

This is why I distinguisehed earlier between help and criticism. I think it all comes down to attitude to other people. And I suppose it also means that neither should be on an ego trip. Pilots who are sensitive to other people and have nothing to prove can usually both give and receive "criticism" without it being a big deal. The others? Well, if you're one of them, please don't come flying with me. :) I had some "critical" instructors in the early days...and I learned little and nearly gave up flying. Luckily I later had some "helpful" ones, who passed on their superior knowledge and skill...and I'm eternally grateful to them. But I learned a lot from the first type, about how NOT to deal with people, either in the air or on the ground.

[Rallye Driver]

I recently experienced an engine failure and forced landing, which wrote off the aircraft and landed me in hospital.

In the 10 days I was laid up with chest injuries I had plenty of time to mull over what had happened, and indulge in plenty of self-criticism and self-doubt about what I should, possibly, have done differently.

So, it was with some trepidation that I logged onto the Internet once I was back home, expecting a certain amount of comment and speculation about the incident. I was pleasantly surprised to have nothing but messages expressing concern and wishing me well. (PPRuNe missed it altogether)

If there had been criticism, I?m not sure how I would have reacted in my already sensitive state. I suspect I would have sulked for a bit, then realised that the event had happened, couldn?t be undone, and the point was to learn any lessons in case it happened again (although I?m sure another engine failure would have totally different symptoms and underlying cause).

Although we now think we have established the likely cause, which hopefully will be confirmed by the AAIB inspection next week, this is what I need to be able to draw a line under the incident, mentally, and move on. Of course we may never know for sure.

What I find frustrating at the moment is the good advice from everyone to get back in the air. But having suffered a fractured sternum and punctured lung, I?m just not fit to fly at the moment, regardless of what the Belgrano may do with my medical - I?m still waiting to hear about that.

Regarding criticising other pilots, I think some very good advice has been posted so far, and I can?t really add anything more. If I fly with someone and get asked my opinion, I will give it and try to be constructive. Everyone has got their own style and ways of doing things, which may be different from mine. As long as they?re safe, that?s OK by me.

I do fly regularly with a number of friends and we do tend to share the workload, with the passenger maybe doing the nav or the radio en route. But then I?ve also flown with inveterate fiddlers, who are forever tinkering with the nav aids or radio. They can be the most frustrating, as no criticism is actually voiced.

The only time I may speak out is if I?ve been on the receiving end of bad airmanship, especially in the circuit. But even here I sometimes bite my tongue as I fly in a busy training environment and students can and do get it wrong.

RD :}
BTW the broken teeth are for real! I was spitting them out as I sat in the cockpit shutting things down. I'm seeing the dentist next Tuesday.

[NotamCheck]

I was criticised recently when the stall warning chirped during the landing flare. "We almost stalled!!!". I was actually conducting a pleasure flight and the young gentlemen believed we were very close to death and he seemed to be pretty alarmed and kept repeating this to his brother in the back whilst I taxi'ed back. I tried to reassure him this is very normal during landing but he didn't believe it. "But..but...we almost stalled!!!".

Shortly afterwards I thought he was a cocky know-it-all that doesn't listen but then I got thinking. So now when I instruct someone who has never been in a light aircraft before I explain about the possibility of the stall warning during landing and not to worry.

My advice, take as much critism as you can then think about it later, some of it may be justified some may not, but we can all learn something new all the time.

[Penguina]

Rallye Driver

Sorry to hear about your incident and I'm glad you're basically OK. Given how I felt for a few weeks after a minor road accident last year, there must be a large amount of psychological 'processing' of such a traumatic event to do, I'd have thought?

Good luck for a recovery and I hope getting back on the horse doesn't turn out to be too hard. :ok:

PS - I agree with dublinpilot. :)

[Arrestahook]

Yakker first of all my deepest sympathies as I once was very much where you sat!
I believe the problem lies with the fact that generally speaking we are qute a humble lot and don't wish to be seen as interfering know it alls. No one likes to admit they are a bad driver lesser still be told so. In your instance i know this is not the case.
However taking your situation as an example it can be embarrassing for one PPL to give advice to another, I have felt it many times when I have thought something could have been done better but remained quiet. After all he was meant to be enjoying himself, not taking a lesson.

Yet i agree with you all that more experienced pilots should give the benefit of their knowledge to others. So here is my two penneth for what it's worth.
As pilot flying on any GA flight, if you have another more experienced PPL accompanying you, set the tone for the trip before you fly. Say for example,

"I am going to operate the aircraft the way I see fit, if you see anything you don't like please point it out to me and if you think I could improve any aspect of my flying lets go for a beer afterwards and you can tell me about it."

Afterall as the 'Captain' it's your responsibility to to create the appropriate environment in the cockpit. Without openly inviting advice (Not criticism) it is human nature for our other chap to wind his neck in and let you get on with it. (Unless he is an interfering t*ss*r of course).

Because 'generally speaking we are a humble lot', the person that you can learn the most from, you know the one; 10,000 hrs ex RAF fast jet test pilot, is going to be the last one to tell you how experienced he/she is. So I emplore us all PPL one and all take responsibility for your further development and create an atmosphere in which the more experienced amongst us can proffer constructive advice.

[S-Works]

arrestahook, damn I thought your silence was just appreciation of my flying skills, now I discover it was mute terror....

:p

[Arrestahook]

Bose dear chap, after slipping the surly bonds embraced in your aureate aura I have descovered that catheter and colostomy bags are a cheaper and less pungent alternative to embrowning and changing my undergarments with inevitable regularity.;)

[S-Works]

Git!

At least I now understand why you fly in those wellies!!!

:p

[Flyin'Dutch']

All the good pilots I know are self critical and happy to talk about flights and things that happen during them good or bad.

If you want to talk about something in particular I find it helpful to ask: 'Why......'

That is a very non confrontational opening to discuss a particular issue.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was criticised recently when the stall warning chirped during the landing flare. "We almost stalled!!!". I was actually conducting a pleasure flight and the young gentlemen believed we were very close to death and he seemed to be pretty alarmed and kept repeating this to his brother in the back whilst I taxi'ed back. I tried to reassure him this is very normal during landing but he didn't believe it. "But..but...we almost stalled!!!".

Isn't the right thing to do is say something like "At the end of the flight, a perfect landing is where we run out of flying speed just as we touch down. If I didn't, the aircraft would keep going and we might run out of runway and end up going through the hedge at the end - so the stall warner means that was a perfect landing."

Surely, if you are criticised and disagree, the thing to do is explain WHY you did it that way. That way either they learn something, or can point out why you are wrong.


I once took a friend flying for his first trip in a light aircraft - as it happens he was something fairly senior but nonflying in BA. When I suggested showing him a stall, he damn nigh panicked and was on the verge of grabbing the controls to stop this dangerous maniac (me!) from endangering both our lives. I decisted from this dangerous and irresponsible proposal, but found it interesting to see how dangerous some people think a stall is, even with prior thought and at a safe height.

That said, having had a few worried pax, I now as part of my landing brief to passengers who haven't flown with me before in an aircraft with an artificial stall warning usually tell them to expect the stall warner during the flare. In my PA28 particularly, it does sound particularly loud and worrying if you aren't expecting it.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

That said, having had a few worried pax, I now as part of my landing brief to passengers who haven't flown with me before in an aircraft with an artificial stall warning usually tell them to expect the stall warner during the flare. I do this part of the passenger briefing on the ground when I check that the stall warner actually works, that way they'll recognise the sound if they hear it. I also point out that it goes off some way above the stalling speed and doesn't mean that we've actually stalled.

[Snakecharmer]

Whirly - nail succesfully hit on the head with your mention of positive and negative phraseology... aviation is a lifelong learning experience and every flight should be taken as an opportunity to learn. ie. Mistakes are a positive thing (they're inevitable in human beings) as they provide a learning opportunity.

Flyin' Dutch - I think that your mention of the word 'why?' has (unwittingly?) provided the most useful tool for anyone seriously interested in improving their flying. If you're not happy with the way something went, ask why it went that way. When you get the answer to that question, ask why again. Continue the process until you get to a selection of contributory factors... you may surprize yourself with what you find!

The good thing about the word 'why' is that it's objective and non blame-inducing - an essential prerequisite for gaining the most from the experience.

[gingernut]

I've done most of my learning through criticism. (although sometimes its called "reflection").

If yor interested in gaining a bit of feedback, constructively, from a peer, then you could lay down a few groundrules.

Ask the pilot what he thought he did well.
Ask the passenger what he thought went well.
Ask the pilot what he could have done better.
Ask the passenger what could have gone better.

This model seems to work well in my practice, as other posters note, balance is the key!

The problem lies when you come across that rare person who just shouldn't be doing the job in hand (whether its flying a plane, performing heart surgery, representing a client in court etc etc.)

[NotamCheck]

Isn't the right thing to do is say something like "At the end of the flight, a perfect landing is where we run out of flying speed just as we touch down. If I didn't, the aircraft would keep going and we might run out of runway and end up going through the hedge at the end - so the stall warner means that was a perfect landing."

...along with "the engine speed will be reduced at the top of climb, it is not about to fail", "..the electric fuel pump thumping sound is normal", "the anti-collision lights circuitry makes a noise" etc etc where do you end?

The problem with my passenger was not that he was scared from the stall warning. He believed I had put his life in danger and would not accept any explanation.

[Whirlybird]

The problem with my passenger was not that he was scared from the stall warning. He believed I had put his life in danger and would not accept any explanation.

If someone is that much of an idiot, then there's little you can do. So he doesn't fly, yet thinks he knows it all! Why on earth did he go flying with you in the first place. And if I were you, I certainly wouldn't take him up again. :(

[NotamCheck]

Not my choice, his father had paid for him to have a trial flight and I was pilot for the day. It turned out he didn't have much motivation and hadn't worked since leaving uni the year before, he said he is from a very rich family. I suppose if you have a priviledged upbringing it does change a persons attitude to life and other people.

[Genghis the Engineer]

priviledged upbringing
Priveleged, or spoiled?

G

[MLS-12D]

suppose if you have a priviledged upbringing it does change a persons attitude to life and other people.No doubt that's true (just look at Prince Harry and the rest of the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family :rolleyes: ). But there are always exceptions, e.g. Kermit Weeks (http://www.fantasyofflight.com/todays_pilot1.htm).

[Final 3 Greens]

Notam CheckSo now when I instruct someone who has never been in a light aircraft before I explain about the possibility of the stall warning during landing and not to worry. I admire your thought process and openness to improve your technique.

I instruct in another field and listen (or read) every piece of feedback carefully, evaluating whether I can improve my technique.

Your balance, on the one hand seeing an improvement opportunity in your briefing and on the other hand realising that the young man was not the easiest client, seems admirable to me.

Your students are lucky to fly with you, IMHO :O