GATCO Controller/Pilot Forum

[Get me some traffic]

The Guild of Air Traffic Control Officers (GATCO) are organising a Controller/Pilot Forum at the St George Hotel, Durham Tees Valley Airport (aka Teesside Airport) on the 8th March 2005.
The evening will start at 1930 and run until 2300. There will be light refreshments (free!!) and a bar. The topic will be the deteriorating relationship between controllers and GA pilots. All welcome, come along and have your say!

[vintage ATCO]

And as I said on the Private Flying forum, what 'deteriorating relationship between controllers and GA pilots' ??? Sorry, getting irritated now. Is this more self generated hype from GATCO? There isn't a deteriorating relationship between controllers and GA.

I welcome any opportunity for pilots and controllers to mix but the subject is bunk.

[ILS 119.5]

VA
your post is terrible. the whole idea of people getting togwther is to improve relationships and working practices. same as fam flights, visits to the tower etc. if you are a professional aviation person then please change your attitute because all these things are done for safety. I would like to meet other professional pilots, atco's, afiso's, radio operators, ga pilots all in one room to discuss any issues that they may have.
The problem with any business is that if people from different departments do not talk then things do not improve. In aviation we have different departments such as pilots, both professional and ga. atc, licenced and unlicenced. ground staff and more. there is a need to talk together that is why GATCO is making an effort.

[Gonzo]

I agree with VA. And it's not a 'terrible post'.

Did you not read the part where he said:

I welcome any opportunity for pilots and controllers to mix

I don't know VA personally, but know of him and his reputation. I doubt there are many more ATCOs around qualified to speak about safety, especially regarding GA.

ILS, what you write should be the aim of anyone involved in any safety critical industy such as aviation. VA wasn't arguing against that, read his post again.

If there really is a divergence, then why not say the topic is 'improving' the relationship between ATCOs and pilots rather than focus on the negative?

[PPRuNe Radar]

119.5

VA does advocate pilots and ATCOs getting together, as do you. In fact he does so in real life ;)

His anger is directed at the headline topic of the Forum which is the 'Deteriorating Relationship between GA Pilots & Controllers'. Many of us dispute that it is detoriorating. Indeed, what is the baseline against which this decline is being measured ? The fact is that there isn't one. So any such statement is without foundation and many controllers may take it as a slight on their professionalism and the high standards which they try to give to pilots day in and day out.

I don't recall any worsening in relationships with pilots over the 20 odd years I have been 'pushing tin' and nor do any of the colleagues I have spoken to all over the country in lots of different types of ATC units and working the whole range of airspace as well as airspace users. Perhaps if the Forum topic was less confrontational and did not imply a criticism of ATCOs and/or pilots then it would open up a more fruitful discussion without tribalism being immediately set as the implicit tone of the meeting ?

Maybe something like 'ATC and GA Pilots : How can we work better together ?'

[flower]

I have also posted on the Flyer Forum I find the title of the forum unhelpful.
As someone ,like VA and PPRuNe Radar, quite involved in GA i can only say i have seen an improvement and not a deterioration.
I like your suggestion of a title for it PPRuNe Radar

[vintage ATCO]

Thanks chaps.

I spoke to a GATCO grown-up today and passed on my disgruntlement. However I am not a member so perhaps it won't go far. ;)

ILS 119.5, I am not against controllers and pilots getting together, I've organised many a visit around where I work. However, I feel the title of the forum is being a bit disingenuous to the many people in UK ATC, not just GATCO, who work very hard to foster good relations with all in the flying community (and indeed around the world.) I have seen no evidence with the very many people I meet from all walks of aviation life that matters are deteriorating.

Unless there is a particular problem at the original poster's unit . . . . :p

[Scott Voigt]

From our end, I don't see a lessing of good will between GA and controllers, but there is a bit of friction from time to time between the part 121 pilots and controllers... More and more metal up in the air, and more heat on the pilots from companies losing money.

regards

Scott

[atcea.com]

In my experience, informal pilot/controller forums held in bars can do a lot to change the relationship between controllers and pilots.

We used to hold such get-togethers here in Puerto Rico from time to time. After about the third round, the gloves began coming off and we discussed - usually in loud, slurred tones - the true nature of the controller-pilot relationship.

These days we go a bit more formal route: Operation Raincheck, an FAA organized pilot/controller meeting. Not as much fun, but fewer black eyes.

"Cheers!"
----
ATC 24/7 (http://atcea.com) ;)

[Dave Gittins]

From a GA pilots point of view ... What deteriorating relationship ???

I too am all in favour of all - and any - contact between pilots and controllers, to better understand each other and work better and safer together.

I entirely share and endorse the sentiments of VAs original post and the entirely sensible comments that have been made since.

What worries me is who is claiming our relationships are deteriorating and based on what evidence ???

Or is there a load of nasty aggressive, intolerant ATCOs and GA Pilots somewhere that don't indulge in PPRuNing ???

From the location of the first post ... is there a North - South divide ??? or trouble in the Nort East ???.

[Scott Voigt]

ATCEA;

You haven't been to one of MY rainchecks <G>... Great fun is had by all and we have about as much fun as anyone can have without adult beverages <BG>... Teaching one tomorrow as a matter of fact... There is even one PPRUNE member who came over here to take a class in...

regards

Scott

[ebenezer]

The only deterioration I know of is with the managements of many regional airports - NOT the controllers [they just have the misfortune to work for these :mad:] - who seem intent on trying to price GA out whilst at the same time fawning about over the odd airline or two that plans to operate a couple of daily services with some heavy metal!!

Maybe there's a specific problem where this controller works (Teesside??) - maybe the management there is also, just one of those cash chasing :mad: ????

:rolleyes:

[2 sheds]

Very refreshing in a way to learn that Vintage ATCO is not a GATCO member. I was starting to think that only Bern Ouilli and I were the only non-members - we had thought of starting our own Not The Guild organisation!

I used to be a member many years ago but resigned because of the official attitude shown at the time to a couple of very specific issues. I, also, was very disappointed to see the apparent attitude in the opening post. The danger is that the customers will think that this represents the approach of all the ATC community.

[ILS 119.5]

I was only a member of GATCO whilst at the college. They do do good things for ATC, but sometimes I think it is another day out and a good lunch. I agree with the set up but do not think they have any influence within the CAA, unless anyone can prove me wrong.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Notwithstanding the points being made about this topic, let's at least remember the very noble and worthwhile support that GATCO gave to a member of the RAF when court martialled last year before unleashing the dogs of war :ok:

How much support do you reckon you would get from your employer if you were involved in a similar incident ?? :bored:

There also seems to be links being made to Teesside and the ATC people there. The meeting place is a venue, nothing more. It could just as easilly be at another place in the UK where ATC and pilots are located. At the end of the day it is down to the people organising it and what is probably most convenient to them. There have been similar forums in London, Prestwick, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Manchester and many others over the years. It doesn't follow that the meeting topic picked for each of these Forums indicated that there was a particular problem at that particular unit :rolleyes: The topic for this advertised meeting is, broadly speaking, one with some potential, however it needs to be phrased in a different way and be something which encourages both ATC and pilots to communicate and reach understandings about each others roles and work.

As for Operation Raincheck ..... great idea, well executed, and an extremely useful and well appreciated initiative. Just a shame that in 'privatised' Britain it would be frowned upon as an unecessary waste of funds I expect
:{

[CAP670]

I have seen no evidence with the very many people I meet from all walks of aviation life that matters are deteriorating.

VA - with great respect, the fact that you've personally no evidence that there may be a deterioration doesn't automatically mean that in some areas or on some issues this doesn't exist. I've not personlly met any extra-terrestrials, but that doesn't mean...

...but do not think they (GATCO) have any influence within the CAA...

ILS 119.5 - depends on what you mean by 'influence with the CAA'. The lead article that was carried in GATCO's magazine 'Transmit' in the Autumn of last year, and the continuing debate in the Winter 2004/05 issue (the safety of public transport flights outside controlled airspace and the erroneous [in GATCO's opinion] assertion by the CAA that Radar Advisory Service provides the same target level of safety as Radar Control Service - IF everyone participates) has had such an effect within the echelons of both the CAA and its sponsor, the Dept for Transport, that the Guild's President & CEO has been invited to meet with the Chairman of the CAA together with the heads of SRG and of DAP (the Directorate of Airspace Policy) presumably because GATCO's message is actually getting across, and difficult questions are now being asked at a ministerial level.

Now that's what I call "influence".

Returning to the original subject of this post, those ATCOs who have access to it should read the article in the Summer 2004 issue of GATCO's 'Transmit' together with the CAA's response in the Autumn 2004 issue. Alternatively, try going to: www.gatco.org

The Guild's concerns - made on the basis of widespread input from its 'coal-face' members - arose following the publication of the CAA's "On Track" Project report which highlighted (based on a survey of GA pilots) a feeling that controlled airspace access is often being denied by ATC unnecessarily and that radar services outside controlled airspace (Radar Advisory/Radar Information) are increasingly being refused by ATC.

These two issues together with a perceived worsening attitude towards GA ops at some regional airports (in particular flying training) were confirmed by GASCo as being areas that need to be addressed.

AOPA also agrees and so irrespective of what VA and others may personally experience, this is not what VA sneeringly refers to as "... more self generated hype from GATCO" but in fact, a co-ordinated effort to head off what many do see as a deterioration in the ATC/GA pilot relationship.

Those of you who are still sceptical should read the letter from AOPA's David Ogilvy ('Transmit' Spring 2004, Page 11) and the CAA's letter ('Transmit' Summer 2004 Page 25).

And by the way ILS 119.5 ("... I think it is another day out and a good lunch"), the 'day out' is always in the GATCO official's own time (a day off or his/her leave - no time off for Guild activities) and the lunch is only ever sandwiches and a can of coke.

Like the former management 'perks' in NATS and other privatised ATS providers, the good old days of time-off-in-lieu and slap-up two-hour pub lunches are long gone...

;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I've been a licenced ATCO for 38 years and have been a GATCO member for all of that time. The Guild deserves the support of EVERY controller.

I've had considerable experience of working with GA pilots. Many take the job/hobby seriously and are equal to their professional colleagues in terms of competence; they have my respect and were a pleasure to work with. Unfortunately, a significant number are total prats who should never be allowed inside an aerodrome, let alone an aircraft (like the Flying Instructor from Fairoaks who decided to take his student for a look round Windsor Castle one Sunday morning while Heathrow was on easterlies). Sadly it's the like of those who are forever ranting on about poor ATC. I hope the forum proves useful.

[vintage ATCO]

VA - with great respect, the fact that you've personally no evidence that there may be a deterioration doesn't automatically mean that in some areas or on some issues this doesn't exist. I've not personlly met any extra-terrestrials, but that doesn't mean...

CAP670 - with great respect . . . There may well be issues in some areas but it does not mean there is a general malaise which the forum title appears to indicate.

There are over 1600 people registered on the Flyer Forum. Discounting people interested but not involved in GA, overseas subscribers (sorry folks!) and the very few multiple ids, that is a fairly high proportion of UK GA - probably a bad assumption but lets stick with it for the moment. I personally know many of the main contributers.

I don't know how many people read and contribute to the Private Flying forum on PPRuNe but lets assume it is an equal figure or maybe slightly more given PPRuNe's possible ( :D ) higher profile. Now, many people are registered on both forums but nevertheless it does provide a useful barometer of people's thinking. Where is the evidence of this deteriorating relationship?

Then there is the editorals and letters pages of the aviation press. I only read two pilot's magazines, and usually 2-3 months behind with them but again I see no increasing view that things are getting worse between controllers and pilots.

It's a commendable action holding these get togethers but in this case, a very very poor choice of title. What a way to advertise it to the GA community, 'an ATCO organisiation says there are deteriorating relationships between controllers and pilots'. Must be true then! No, I think you are doing a great disservice to the ATC community in general.

And the hype? Well, it won't be the first time GATCO have used attention grabbing headlines, will it? ;) And no, I wasn't sneering.

My last word on the subject.

[onion]

I am, neither a private flyer or an ATCO but do know ATCOs and private flyers. Maybe the title of this thread is doing exactly what is needed, to create interest in the topic and get people talking about any problems there are. If people feel so aggrieved by the title why don't you turn up and let your feelings be known!
On the situation with people believing GATCO has little influence in aviation try telling that to their corporate members BA and BMI!! On top of that they take part in IFATCA confrences are very much in with the CAA, Ministery of Transport and are very well respected in Military circles.
If no one turns up then it's not GATCOs fault, i believe they are trying to help and you never know you might be surprised at the results of the meeting, even if it just that both sides come to understand one another better.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

CAP670, maybe the CAA, GATCO et al are actually getting together because they all realise that the mud-slinging match that has adorned the last couple of issues of Transmit can only be destructive.

PS. If you want to talk TLS, PM/e-mail me - I am quite familiar with the methodology and, in a nutshell, the current statistics and gross, necessary, assumptions prove absolutely nothing.

[ebenezer]

"An ATCO organisiation says there are deteriorating relationships between controllers and pilots"

Whilst Vintage ATCO and his vintage chums may all be jolly good friends both in the air and round the bar, nonetheless there are some ATC/PPL relationship issues that organisations like GATCO, AOPA, etc., are quite right to address and are very clearly not 'hype' or 'attention grabbing' or imaginery.

Go for example, to:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_5.pdf and in particular take a look at Section 7.

Elsewhere in that Report, you'll see that 20% of PPLs responding cited the provision of ATC or a dispute with ATC as being the prime cause of their zone infringement. Whatever the causes, THIS IS A SAFETY ISSUE!!!

That 20%'s the CAA's figure, not GATCO's or anyone else's.

Nobody's saying that all PPLs are at the throats of ATC or vv. But equally, it's obviously not a 'bed of roses' everywhere, either.

Maybe the title of the meeting at the former RAF Middleton St George's Officers' Mess is a bit naff and misleading: but it doesn't mean that it's not worth turning up and taking part in the debate if only to prove the title's generally-speaking wrong!!

:ok:

[CAP670]

Whipping Boy's SATCO, your reference to a "...mud-slinging match that has adorned the last couple of issues of 'Transmit' can only be destructive" is I'm afraid, complete and utter tosh!

The original article was well researched and factual, the CAA's reply and GATCO's response predictable if emotive.

You might be interested to learn that within the last two months, the CAA has (strangely...) re-issued a Pink AIC reminding pilots about the recommended manner in which to respond to avoiding action, regrettably not soon enough to avoid yet another AIRPROX over East Anglia between a public transport aircraft and an RAF Tornado.

An open debate even when it is emotive and perhaps becomes heated, at least serves the purpose of airing a subject that many people - ATCOs and pilots (e.g. BALPA) - are concerned over and about which the Establishment would prefer to keep silent.

As for statistics, well if you don't take some account of them, you simply react to subjective gut feelings which is hardly a scientific approach!!

:hmm:

[Get me some traffic]

Don't forget. Forum in one months time. Hope to see lots of you there.

[Get me some traffic]

Don't forget, Forum in just over a weeks time. Hope to see lots of you there.

[Get me some traffic]

Just a quick reminder of the Forum on Tuesday.
Many thanks to Pprune for allowing me to post this topic.
Hope to see lots of you at MME.