Thanks to the Extenders

[conan]

I just want to thank you all very much for extending, I'm sure that we couldn't have made it without your efforts. Totally self serving that they were.
By being such arrogant selfish Pr-cks you have set the tone for future extensions, created a mass of resentment, and generally sold everyone else down the river .
Judas comes to mind here
You didn't even have the courage to hold out for existing salary scales and conditions, You are pathetic, and need to be treated like the pariahs that you are.
Retirement will be a lonely affair when no-one from the company wants to have anything to do with you
I don't think that anyone would have objected if you had done it in conjuntion with the AOA or even if you had held out for A scales, but you sold your souls for a few shekels, I hope you find it was worth it!

[middlemarker]

heavy

[MaxThrust]

Conan well said, I couldn't have put it more aptly myself.

[chat sei chat]

ATCHUNG

An extract from our "leader"...kb.

The Officers being extended /bend over/ will help with this flexibility /bend over/ There will be no reduction in the number of upgrades at all /bend over/ and bypass salary /bend over/ and benefits will be paid as per Conditions of Service. The extensions /bend over/ are for one year /bend over/ and they have been offered based on a reduction /bend over/ in Conditions of Service /big bend over/ to B Scale /bend over/ salaries

but at the same seniority point on the salary scale /bend over/

Whaa?? who gives a f**k.

I /bend over/ will continue to review our /bend over/ operating plan /bend over/ and extension offers /bend over/ may be made to /bend over/ other /bend over/ Captains on a /bend over/ case by /bend over/ case basis.

BEND OVER

DO NOT not fly with these “over-extended” jerk-offs !!!!!!!!

THIS IS ABOUT AS CLEAR AS IT GETS AS TO managements'/bend over/ INTENTIONS

[legstretch]

It is very simply. These old loosers are nothing but a bunch of scabs!!

If you are reading this you loosers, everyone is talking about you in a very negative way.

You may fly with cowards who say they agree with you, but they don't.

Peter L.S you are a joke!

[ButtMunch]

That is now Peter L.S.S (Scab-Smith or Smith-Scab)

You would have thought someone with 2 Fathers would have had more sense than to accept a further paycut just to screw the whole aircrew group over.

[Kubota]

L/S and Buttman, you two have really gone OTT. Keep it up and I GUARANTEE that the thread will be closed. Your comments are libellous and ill-considered. The AOA has it in hand, there is NO NEED to add your comments.

See that little "edit" icon? Use it.

[10sne1]

Hey Kubota;
Lighten up! The moderators have that job. The AOA does have it in hand I agree but these guys need to know what the word is. They need to be thinking about it everyday. They need to realize that everyone they fly with hates to be there. They need to know that it was a very bad decision to do what they did. I don't think there is anything libellous on this post, if there was the capable guys looking after it would have done something.

[legstretch]

Perhaps we all should simply NOT fly with these scabs. I know a lot of guys including myself will not. Management get ready for a bit of messing around on the old roster.

Get out you hang on scabs!!!!!

[ButtMunch]

Kubota, perhaps you are a Captain thinking of an extension and don't like to hear the word scab, but the minute you accept LOWER pay in exchange for a longer than projected career you are a scab.

They are undermining the careers of everybody else. What airline pays their senior pilots less?

[Captain Krono]

Better than that, PLS has just applied for a base swop back to HKG for next year.

Who is the idiot who has agreed to swop with him ?

[conan]

Probably the next one on the list who is waiting for the first available slot. The one that PLS is presently preventing anyone attaining!! Great system isn't it

[jagman]

1. Why did Dyball,Rowe and BARLEY extend on 'A'scales?
2.Where in our COS (sic) does it cover extending pilots on reduced conditions?
3.Why is Mr L-S still holding a Base slot that should go to the first on the waiting list?

[This message has been edited by jagman (edited 11 October 2000).]

[gurrka yindi]

Maybe i'm a little stupid, but can someone tell me why these extenders, that are staying on to help YOU guys train and get your upgrades quicker,are doing the wrong thing?

[Cloud Cuckooland]

Not because they are staying which, if bypass is paid is completely legitimate, but because they have allowed the company to attack & undermine the conditions (yet again) of those on A-scale and undermined the aspirations of those on B-scale. Those aspirations, of course, are to get rid of B-scale.

The company sees it as its job to "press to test" on these things - it failed with B-scale training because people said NO.

These four said YES to the detriment of the rest of us.

[smith]

Dyball is still kicking around?

[Captain Krono]

Whats worse, PLS has applied for a base swop to come to HKG next year.

What I want to know is what idiot agreed to swop with him ? He needs talking to too.

[Captain Krono]

Whats worse, PLS has applied for a base swop to come to HKG next year.

What I want to know is what idiot agreed to swop with him ? He needs talking to too.

[geh065]

Firstly, I am not a captain, but someone fairly low down in the seniority list. I would like very much to proceed up the list quickly, but am not childish enough to start insulting perfectly nice people because of a career decision. Nobody works for the benefit of others. They work so that they can provide the best they can for themselves and their family. So, they have reached that age of 55. Too old to do anything? Perhaps they should sit in wheelchairs and line up at the post office to collect their pensions? How about continuing to improve their standard of living and ensure a better retirement when they feel they are ready for it?

Isn't it sad to end your career, doing something you love, when you are perfectly capable of doing it some more?

How many of us would seriously retire from doing something which we love? Something which we get paid to do, when there is still a few years in us? I bet many people would like to continue but fear the wrath of the other crew. That's sad.

I say grow up. None of this is very professional.

[chat sei chat]

"...Isn't it sad to end your career, doing something you love, when you are perfectly capable of doing it some more?..."

I'm not sure I'm reading this from someone "down the list"...truly get yourself a fresh sheet of paper and some different colour crayons me boy

Yes it's true that these "professionals" might train up a few F/O's and S/O's, but if they're so desperately needed, one would think they would pay them the going rate. "A" scale and not a centime less. Hell maybe they should command a higher rate if they stave off ruin and disaster for cx.

Recognize this for what it is, my friends. They are screwing us once again. PERIOD. Read the /bend over/ comments above if you're in need of further clarification.

[SMOC]

geh065 will you say that same **** if they extend guys when you're near to CMD or a basing.

[10sne1]

There is more to this than meets the eye folks. An extension by anyone on A Scale is perfectly acceptable and has happened many times before. The reason these guys have stuffed up so much is since they were "extended" on B Scale it is not an extension at all. In fact NR even admitted that these guys are on entirely new contracts. This means they weren't extended but employed as DIRECT ENTRY B SCALE CAPTAINS. This is in contravention of the COS and will hopefully lead to the company having to dismiss them and extend someone else, in accordance with the COS, because once you leave you can't come back.

[NCY]

you pithy, spoilt brats. all you care about is yourselves and how much money you earn. how YOU want to be bigger and better and earn more money than those 'seniors'. Pathetic. I know who I'd rather see in charge of landing the plane during a typhoon.

[Midnight Rambler]

Ooops!! NCY. You are about to skid on a banana skin.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I think you have missed the point entirely. This has absolutely nothing to do with money and everything to do with principle (or lack of), contracts, honour and integrity.

[jtr]

NCY, thank you for your informative, well researched post. I wish more people could contribute in such a manner. Your input to this topic has made me realise new, and valid points that would never had seen the light of day otherwise. Yours in admiration jtr

[geh065]

I agree that if these people are being extended on a new contract then yes, they would be hired 'illegally' and this, I do not agree on. The company cannot break previously forged agreements whenever they feel like it. If it is this reason that everyone is unhappy then fine.

However, I get the feeling that this is not the only reason. In fact, perhaps it's just a way of justifying the way many guys feel about the whole thing. If the CoS is being broken then I agree, the whole thing should be stopped. However, I do not object to the principle of extending. The extra money would go down very well. When I get to their age and I am not ready to retire, why can I not continue? Given the option, I probably would. If I like the airline I am working with, why not continue rather than take a job elsewhere?

If these people are in fact slowing my progression through the company then so be it. Regardless of whether I am close to am upgrade or not, I'd like to be given the opportunity to continue at 55, so for now that's that. I live with it.

[This message has been edited by geh065 (edited 16 October 2000).]

[SMOC]

gey065 you have missed the point, pilots have an expiry date, we may not like it but at CX it's 55 you joined knowing this and you should have planned your future on it and so did others below them so if you have ****'ed your life don't **** those below you.

Don't pass the CX treatment of it's pilots onto the rest of the junior crew.

[NCY]

Midnight Rambler On:

Where's the integrity of the principal officer about to be called up to the ICAC?

[Midnight Rambler]

NCY, if the ICAC sees a need to investigate somebody, then let it proceed and the individual/institution can respond and should, one hopes, be free to present a defence. I hasten to add that I don't know to what or whom you are referring, but if there is an integrity issue, I agree that if guilt is proven it is equally to be deplored.

What's your point? How does it affect the matter of CX employing direct entry captains on different CoS??

[aussihk]

B scales became a fact when the A scalers didn't have the guts to stop them being introduced. A scalers only have themselves to blame. Perhaps they shouldn't have allowed it in the first place, it was stupid to think it wouldn't effect them.

The real issue here is the extension, not the conditions (unless of course you are one of those complaining now who plans to take extension / push for 60 years retirement age later). We talk about the company shafting us by changing the rules as we go. Now it will be those who push for a higher retirement age. I joined CX with one of the conditions being retirement at 55 and an expectation of advancement (so I can retire hopefully before I reach 55, let alone 60!). If the retirement age is increased to 60 then five years of promotions is lost. It does not matter if CX is in an expansion phase. An increase in retirement age will still slow promotion. If you have been stupid enough to be caught up to your nuts in amah and need to keep on working to pay off the previous wifes, don't punish the rest of us by pushing for 60. Don't change the rules on your fellow pilots. If the AOA supports 60 year retirement, they will have my resignation!

[conan]

Sounds to me like geh065 is one of the extendees concerned trying to justify their position.
The extension is not in question here, merely the terms that it was taken under. By accepting lower pay and conditions, you have opened a pandora's box [ which as you well know should never have been touched]
If you are given the opportunity to extend and you wish to do so fine, but do it in the approved manner.Not on new terms and conditions.

[mole]

I may be mistaken, however, it appears that the majority of the objections to working after 55 are being raised by B scalers. If any B scaler thinks they are going to have enough funds to retire at 55 then think again. You will NEED to work until 60 to have any chance of funding a comfortable retirement. Perhaps most of you have already worked this out! So do we have to endure the whinging from you guys until all A scalers have retired at 55. Then, no doubt, the tune will change and a demand for retirement at 60 will be flavour of the month. Well if working after 55 is neccessary for you guys, which it most certainly is, then I want it too! I joined before you did so wait your turn. Get it? As for blaming the A scalers for allowing the introduction of B scales, forget it! Should we have gone on strike? Be realistic brothers. If you had all said no thanks then perhaps we would all be on A scales, original ones at that! Let's not make stupid statements on this forum, things happen because the company is able to make them happen, sometimes they fail because it is a step too far. For example B scale training allowance failed because all the volunteers had resolved not to accept reduced conditions.

I repeat what I have said on many occassions retirement at 60 will come. It is up to us to ensure that when it comes it is on our terms after full negotiation. If we sit back and whinge and refuse to accept reality then extensions at 55 on B scales will become an epedemic. As for those who I have heard threatening to go sick rather than fly with extendees, please think very carefully. If you value your job then may I suggest you should look after your health . Acceptance of reality and full and thorough negotiation is the answer to this.

[This message has been edited by mole (edited 15 October 2000).]

[chat sei chat]

"As for those who I have heard threatening to go sick rather than fly with extendees, please think very carefully... and ...Acceptance of reality and full and thorough negotiation is the answer to this."

Flying with an "extendee" is exactly the same as flying with any other "DIRECT ENTRY Captain" who has completely lost the plot, and who has severly predjudiced our chances of "negotiating" anything. What sort of judgement is being displayed by these people??

The phrase "Breathtaking stupidity..." comes to mind

[Dogsbolux]

I'm afraid that mole has struck a chord of brutal reality within me. Try as I may (with a harshly conservative living budget as well) I cannot make sense of of my own predicted figures. They all point to the fact that I Have to work at my B-scale salary (hopefully command by then)from 55 to 60. At that age I do not relish changing airlines and cultures.

I think we have to accept that things have changed immeasurably with CX and we are going to have to catch up with reality.
Sadly-very sadly 'Fings ain't what they used to be!'

I believe it WILL happen in my time and I suggest we:

a) Start discussing/negotiating the terms NOW

b) Stop the B-scale extendee nonsense. If they can negotiate a deal it must be on their present scale. I do accept we need all the trainers we can get.

c) Pull the stops out to strengthen the AOA as a negotiating body and have the recruiting drive of the century to get EVERYBODY on board.

We HAVE TO ACCEPT that times have changed. I hated the thought of it originally but now that I am coming to accept it I can focus on planning the rest of my life. I want my command and I am even bidding across to the freighter to provide me with a bit of command insurance.

I hope this doesn't degenerate into a slanging match because if there was ever a time to start healthy debate it is now. Plenty of guys speak publicly about retiring at 55 then whisper to their mates that they need to keep going longer. I am out of the closet because I need to fly until 60.

[jtr]

Dognuts, you're on it! I think it is apparent to most, that self serving deals benefit very few. We have to all meet on a common goal, and drive that home to the company. Bitch about it all we like, but if CX wants it, they can generally make it happen. Denying it will achieve zilch. We have to put foward our wishes

[Screaming Lord]

MR,
Exactly, PLS was heard to say this week that there were NO principles in the aviation business ("since I have now left"), and as I can earn more money in UK now on B scales with CX than with Virgin , why not ?
Because my friend, there are 1500 pilots waiting to take your place in CX, who do not have a lot of expnsive cars or big houses like you, and just want to progress in their careers. Your immoral greed is a shame to our profession.

[ButtMunch]

PLSS

[amused]

Don't kid yourselves, B scales will only be extended on C scales!