Chinese ethnic get paid less at CX?

[wk747888]

I'm a Chinese American wanting to work for CX in the future. However, after going through all the topics in this forum, I started to have second thoughts about this. Especially after reading one topic stating that pilot with Chinese ethnic background get less pay. Is this true?

Since I just got my CPL in the states and is working on my CFI, there is still a lot of things I need to learn. Can some one explain the following.

ASL?
P2X?
Veta?

Thank you all in advance. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

[Cloud Cuckooland]

1. Ethnic Chinese only get paid less if they are locally recruited. Actually they don't get less salary only less benefits such as housing/ education etc. Unfortunately the cost of Housing & Education is astronomical in HK. If you are recruited as an expat - regardless of race you will get the expat package. If you have a HKID card don't tell them or you might be told to apply as a local- leave race out of it-just emphasise that you are an American. FYI there are "ethnic europeans" on the local scale since they had HKID cards and went through the cadet program.

2. ASL (Aircrew Services Limited) was a disasterous attempt to undercut mainline wages & seniority (local & expat). ASL pilots flew the freighters at el-cheapo rates. The creation of ASL was one of the major factors that has lead to the appalling industrial climate that exists here. ASL has been partially negotiated out of existance and now if you apply to the freigther division you will be a CX employee on the CX seniority list. Salary is still bad but at least, when seniority allows, you can bid over to pax fleet with the better pay.

In one of life's little ironies - you need more time and heavier endorsements to get into the substandard Freighter division (F/O entry only) than you do to get in as a Mainline S/O. I guess thats the price you pay for getting a window seat 2 years earlier.

3. P2X is a dodgy rating they give second officers that allows them to be cruise pilots only - wouldn't want you to get a full P2 or you might leave for greener pastures! It also saves on Aircraft base training - you won't get any. All P2X type rating is done in the sim.

4.Veta/USAB - CX controlled companies that pilots based outside Hong Kong are employed by. It's a technicality - doesn't affect your CX seniority etc.

[BUSDRVR]

Local pilots, most of whom are chinese but some who are gweilo who have right to work in HKG and are HK permanent residents get paid the same in $$$ as expat recruited pilots, they do not recieve a housing allowance and some of their health benefits differ. This scheme is for pilots who were recruited as cadets, into the cadet pilot program! Zero fligt time, 1 year in the UK or now austrailia and you were sittung relief in a 747-400 or 340! after 3 years they become FO's it is all on the web site.

If you were to get 3000 hours on your own, livinf 4 to a single bedroom apt for 3 years, flying out of all the holes of the world, you can then apply for direct enttry SO positions and get a housing allowance!

Local pilots are eligible to join Veta, the company that bases pilots outside HKG!

ASL, no longer exists!
P2x means you are rated in the airplane but not alowed to take off or land! ( cruise pilot only )

check out the CX website for more details

[WUN WING LO]

Busdriver
not quite correct. Cadets do not receive expat benefits as you indicated. However, we do have a number of LEPs who have had the required hours before joining CX only to be told that because they were Chinese they would be employed on local terms. Sad but true.

[Diogenes]

BUSDRVR
ASL does indeed still exist, and currently retains 90 pilots on it's seniority list.

------------------
Step aside, you're blocking my light.

[beeforchicken]

Despite 1/effectively paying back the course fees within 3 years of being a 2nd officer. 2/our counterparts that do the same paralell courses at different airlines getting paid the same as direct entry pilots(qf,ba,sa,vn,ma,tg etc.......) 3/doing the same job in cx as all other direct entry pilots, our ex-cadets continue to receive no housing benefit and no education benefit. perhaps they are expected not to have any children? who knows, however, the colonial shadow continues to stands over cx in a clearly non colonial Hong Kong. Moreover, over the road at dragonair, the cadets receive housing benefit! go figure.

[DECU]

Beef,

Just for your information, the KA cadets who have been recruited in the last 2 batches DO NOT receive any housing allowances. The first few batches of cadets who were recruited in the late 80's and are now captains and senior first officers with KA however, are still given housing allowances.

DECU

[wk747888]

Dear All:
Thank you all for replying. I really really appreciated all the the info. Once I make that 1000 hr mark, I will send in my resume. Can anyone tell me what kind of hours I will need to be competitive for hire? BTW, will CX fly into China in the future or does dragon air takes care of that part of the world for CX. Someone told me that CX might start flying into China in the future.
One last question. Does CX take on pilots with laser corrected vision? I use to be nearsighted and have Lasik done last year. I now have 20/20 vision. Will this be a no no with CX? Thanks

[Kubota]

2500 hrs is the lowest level that you could reasonably be in with a shot (on something that carries at least a few pax...C152/172/182 etc. time is not taken seriously). Dragonair does China, and DON'T say anything about Lasik...CX's PMO does NOT like Lasik, and many candidates have been turned down over Lasik.

[mahlersound]

My friend:

I must also add that the FAA CPL or ATPL will be difficult to get you into CX unless you have UK CAA or JAR CPL, ATPL. CX is mainly a British airline and to get the UK CAA or JAR CPL, that is another different story.

MS

[Djoni Boerhanoeddin]

I am agree with you Mahlersound, I got ICAO ATPL with 10100 hrs and rated with 744, the only think I have more is my skin braun and my nationality is not British

[moon_towers]

Djoni,

What you're saying is not fully correct,
I'am gonna work for the Company you state,
I'am not British,and my experienced is
only 10 years of flying.
What I agree is,the ability is depend on
the knowledge,besides other to support it.
Be realistic,applying for Major Airlines,
based on the Competitions at the time.

m_t

[This message has been edited by moon_towers (edited 18 October 2000).]

[smith]

Can someone name a black pilot that works for CX?

[Kubota]

Don't know his name, but there is a S/O on the -400, Ex-Botswana, and an AHK captain (Zimbo) who signed over to the CX list. He may be a captain in CX in about 15 years, I guess!

Why?

[Thrust]

I can name one; "Solly"..... a a great bloke he is too. So what???

[smith]

It's quite a change from the old days when CX only hired white cauasian male from the Commonwealth. I guess CX is not all that racist after all.

[CCA]

You'd have to be nut's to go for the Cadet programme or hired on local terms unless you have no choice. The cadet thing is worth about 0.5 mill in training, but housing for 30 years can be between 8-20 mill then add education allowance.

[beeforchicken]

question : why do the local chaps get paid less for doing EXACTLY the same job? what is the common factor that distinguishes them, and why hasn't it been addressed. Surely, if they were not able to do the same job, cx would not keep them? Any input anybody? Local chaps where are your voices????????

[Screaming Lord]

The difference is that mum and dad live in town, and CX expects them to live at home, for free. Therefore no housing allowance. Also, because our local bretheren were brought up here they are immune to all those Asian diseases and polluted air. Therefore reduced medical cover !!!!

[SMOC]

If they had a voice they might be on better conditions !

[subria]

Nothing is stopping us raise our voice, they just wouldn't listen, like when B-scale first came out.

[happyldg]

With the deep colonial root, CX is a racist airline. The reason CX hires local chinese pilots is because they have to. After all, HKG is no longer part of the British empire. He....He....He.....

I can see that CX will turn into a national(Chinese) carrier in the distance future. That is why the management pilots are doing their best to surpressing the "local" FO from upgrading. Nest building. Mate.

One have to be blind; not to see the systematic surpression of the local FO from their normal progression. They were told they were bypass for the relief course because they lack small airplane experience, ie: commuter flying. That is just a bunch of GARBAGE!
It did not help when a nameless Canadian Capt. constantly bad mouthing the locals for their flying skills, back then on the 10th floor. Hopefully PC can change all that soon. I heard he have been fed with garbage too. 5 or more years for a Chinese Capt. That is the biggest joke / insult I have ever heard!
As for the chinese FO at CX, I personally knew a S/O hired from Canada(family migrated there from HKG)that were given local term. And he is NOT a cadet.

Is all the LOCAL FOs a member of the AOA.?? Majority of them are, yet nothing has been done for them. WHY? Interesting Union. One that sees in full colour spectrum.

Remember: CX always win

[This message has been edited by happyldg (edited 11 October 2000).]

[SMOC]

Sub, there were NO B scales employed when B scale "came out", what do you think B scale is trying to do now !

Second, "they just wouldn't listen" Ohh well that makes all the difference no wonder you gave up / Bent over.

[Ivanahumpalot]

CX contracts are based on skin color. It does not matter what nationality you are as long as you look Asian you get local term.

I know because I argue this point at the interview but to no avail. It fascinates me that the advert said "housing allowance given to overseas officer". However if you show up looking like Charlie Chan then they expect your cost of living will be cheaper, therefore local terms. Perhaps they think rice is cheaper than steak. Needless to say I open up a can of "woop ass" on them and left. Flying RJs is not so bad, at least I won't be judged by my skin color. Good luck to the locals.

[beeforchicken]

Is the disparity or said inequality common knowledge in hong kong? What would public have to say? local cx executive chaps representing them at all? qu's qu's qu's!!! seems this has not been addressed often enough, if at all.

[Thrust]

I think some of the posts here are as a result of rejection. I do not believe CX crew are racist but the management do work to the letter of the law in HK.

Perhaps some of the disadvantaged individuals have the HK Govt (and of course big business) to thank for their plight. The HK Govt has no racial discrimination ordinance due to the fact they see no problem. Yes, their eyes are closed to the few overseas Chinese being discriminated against so as to avoid the issue of the huge number of other nationals discriminated against here.

By the way, the issue of local senior F/O's upgrading to command is not an "issue" at all. If they have the ability and pass the course they will be captains in order of seniority, just like everyone else. I know plenty who would have a good shot at it now but it's not their turn!

I don't agree with the lack of benefits for locally employed officers and I trust it will be addressed as the numbers grow and the Govt takes an interest. Don't stir up the other rubbish this thread is degenerating toward.

[beeforchicken]

thrust, 3 comments/questions :- (1) i do not believe anyone has said the CREW are racist, far from it. (2) command topic is a long running one and stems from the initial cadets not getting a seniority number from the start, so it is not just a question of passing. (3)i trust from your last comment that you agree that local benefits are not good, as opposed to you do not believe there is a lack of benefits for the locals. think it can be interpreted 2 ways! (did i say that right?????)

[Thrust]

Just trying to point out the difference between those that fly by the rules and those that make them. Many management pilots are not racist either. Older times I hope, but they still seem unwilling to change what is wrong as the $$$ is doing the talking.

As far as seniority date is concerned you have to go with what it is at the time. The F/E's that changed across to pilot did'nt get a seniority # until they were checked out as JFO's. It's not just the Chinese. Also remember that we have in CX western race F/O's that came through the S/O programme in the same era that have the same seniority problem. I suspect there could be other groups disadvantaged too. It's not a perfect system but it's fixed now for new-joiners.

I believe the locally employed pilots should be on the same conditions as everyone else. A-scale pay (and some are) and conditions.

Hope that sorts that out.

[Cloud Cuckooland]

Happy & Ivana:

Maybe you two are a wind up but here goes.
My,my they are big chips on your shoulders - to address some of your points.

Local pilot seniority.

Not racist, but a typical Flight Operations Management stuff up of the early ninties period. Commands at that time were 3 - 4 years after joining. They wanted to prevent low experience pilots (cadets) from getting commands that fast so instead of just putting a high hours/sector requirement on them they delayed their seniority date. Now that commands are running at 10 years they have lost out in an unexpected way. So many others have joined in the meantime that unravelling the seniority mess is too hard.

Another 5 years for a local Captain?

Wrong. It will happen within three years. The first cadet course was ten years ago therefore 13 years to command. Notwithstanding what I said above, Most CX Captains have taken longer than 13 years flying experience to get a CX command. High experience & good training is why you don't see smoking CX tails sticking out of a hillside.

Your Canadian friend.

I agree to some extent but if he was born in HK, and has a HKID card, regardless of his CDN passport, even the Chinese Govt. regards him as Chinese (ie local). A foreign passport is very little protection from the Chinese Govt. if you are ethnically Chinese.
Anyway, CX is desperate for "local faces" so all he had to do say "If you want me it must be on expat terms". They will always try it on - just say no.

[jtr]

Do locally employed pilots get housing upon reaching command?

[Cloud Cuckooland]

All local staff upon reaching grade "D" get 20K housing. Captains are grade "D" so they should - as long as nothing changes.

I have heard the AOA is extremely keen to get some locals on the committee and has been trying to persuade someone to step forward for a long time.

Come on you guys, come forward and look after your own interests - you are the most "bullet proof" in the company. They will never sack a local pilot for "political reasons" especially someone who is about to one of the first local Captains.

The company has just attacked A scale again (by giving B scale extensions) - a lot of you are on A-scale. Fight it now or suffer later - you will be here longer than most of us.

[smith]

Thrust:

I don't know how long you have lived in HKG but were you there in the 60s and 70s. Racial discrimination has always existed in HKG. The HK government was set up by a bunch of racist civil servants from England. Under the colonial rule, the local civil servants had no chance for promotion to the top job at each department because the top job was always reserved for a gweilo from the UK. Was that discrimination? Of course, it was but it suited the colonial government and HM government back home. After the signing of the joint declaration between the UK and China, HM government agreed to revert HKG back to China in 1997. An agreement was made between the two governments to localise the government immediately. Hence, gweilos were bypassed and Chinese were promoted to the top positions in each department. What's this? Discrimination? Of course, it is!

So, before you asked why there is no racial discrimination ordinance in HKG, you got to ask why the HK government while under British rule, did not set up any racial discrimination ordinance?

[happyldg]

To Cloud:

Very nice speech! I especially like the plea for the local FOs to charge the machine guns nest for you. Nicely done.
Any chance you would be replacing Al Gore in the US Presidential election?!

The fact is; they have ALL to lose. The fact that they are being bypassed for command, not given proper seniority date, and given a A-(minus) and B-(minus) Scale, tells me that they are not protected. Not even by their own Union! :mad:

Have you ever heard of the "Command Assessment" at CX? If the local starts to voice, I can bet you their command assessment will not be pretty. They will be bypass again! I have seen how some of the management pilots write those reports.
Things like: lack assertiveness, lack communication skills, lack leadership, and so on. Things like that can be so "grey", there is no way anyone can contest that.

The best way is to wait until YOU ARE FULLY BULLET PROOF, NOT WHEN YOU ARE "ALMOST" BULLET PROOF.

The reason CX have not had a crash so far is because CX is very small airline, pure and simple. If CX is as big as BA, UA, AA, with thousands of departure PER DAY, we too will suffers the same faith. So, please get off your high horse. :rolleyes:


Remember: CX always win.

[Cloud Cuckooland]

Happy, Just what I like a spirited thread!

1. Who has been charging the machine gun nest up until now? (nice analogy by the way)

2. I liked John McCain - a straight talker too bad he's out.

3.If you want the union to look at your areas of concern you need to be active. Many others want a piece of their time. Move your stuff to the top of the agenda.

4.Most checkers don't like what the company is doing and will not be influenced in marking. An 8 year history of "4"s on annual line check for CMD assesment cannot be swept under the carpet. You said yourself PC is on your side.

5.100% Kevlar coverage is always desirable but hard to find.

6.CX is the 15th largest airline in the world.

7.Only if you let them.

Have a nice day!

[Cloud Cuckooland]

(!)

[This message has been edited by Cloud Cuckooland (edited 13 October 2000).]

[The Guru]

I don't live in HK yet so guide me if I'm wrong...

Surely $20000HK per month as a housing allowance is going to get you something in HK, and therefore missing out as a "local" pilot is going to get some serious conflict building within the airline? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif Stand up for your rights! How much more per month would it cost you for housing out of your own salary?

[jumpseat]

eh......no one paid for my my ATPL or put me in the rhs of a wide body in 3 years. It's all about compromise chaps.
Not many of the locals would have thought about going into flying if CX hadn't paid for their flying. The expat cabin crew (all Asian) get a housing allowance.
The race issue rears it's ugly head in all walks of life. Where I come from if an ethnic Chinese is discriminated against he/she has the law to fall back on. Now where in Asia does a non Asian have any rights?

last question.
If Cafe Pathetic stopped paying a housing allowance in HK ...how many pilots/cabin crew would be left (answers on a postage stamp).
Oh and for all you non cx types . White trash living in his/her own home country don't get a housing alowance ...is that racist????

[SMOC]

I bet CX housing will buy you a house ?

[WUN WING LO]

Jumpseat

the issue here is not so much whether LEPs receive housing or not. The wider issue is that of equality. When I joined the company as an LEP we had to queue at different counters in staff travel to the expats. Cetain holiday houses were/are for expats only. I remember enquiring about the golf villas in Fanling " they're for pilots " i was told. " i am a pilot", oh, they're for expats only you're a local.
Other discrepencies include medical and dental. Until last year we were denied basings even though a large number of LEPs are domiciled abroad. FOCs are PRI 11 regardless of where we go.
I am an LEP, I am not , however, a second class citizen.
Yes CX paid for our training and gave us a great oportunity, but haven't they given you a great oportunity??
BA, Qantas. Lufthansa cadets are treated equally in their respective companies, why should CX be so different??
We have expat pilots born in Hong Kong with permanent ID cards, why are they not on local terms. Why should a chap of chinese origin be treated as a local even though he holds a foreign CPL/ATPL??

[CCA]

HEY above your obviously A scale so don't give a **** about your B scale locals as I'd imagine A scale local is equal to B scale expat.


[This message has been edited by CCA (edited 14 October 2000).]

[beeforchicken]

j/s, correct me if i am wrong, but what you are in effect saying is locals had atpl's etc paid for therefore should be paid less. if this is the case, then can you explain why A scale exists? did A scale guys have a harder time getting to the airline than B scale and consequently should be paid more? i think i know your answer. so don't go justifying why LEP pay exists. we all arrived at this junction from many different directions and backgrounds from around the globe. the bottom line is we all do the same job and should be paid equally for it - A scale. i don't think we need people to justify the disparities in this company. espcially the aircrew. instead we should be bridging the gap.

[door_jam]

Jumpseat

You are right. Cadets did not come with an ATPL. Ex-cadets pay back their training by having less benefits.

However, that does not mean they have to pay back for the REST of their LIVES in the Company. The amount of money the Company spent on them was paid back in just a few years time by the savings of having a LEP.

[Thrust]

Quite right smith I agree completely. The Brits are at fault as they have been throughout history. Same with the labour laws they tried to bring in with only months of British rule left. A disgrace. Not too late for the local Govt to correct things though is it?

[Whatsamatayou?]

1)Many of us who have been in HKG now hold permanent ID cards and have the right to stay indefinately. The ID card should not be an issue if you hold another passport and are hired from overseas.

2)The AOA with our support should speak up in favour of our local pilots to make equal our conditions. This is not about race but professionals looking out for each other.

3)Cathay should get out of the dark ages of racist colonialism. It's embarrassing to be looked at and branded as supporting the colonial ideology of white supremacy. The ones who have the power to make the changes are simply too weak or stuck in their back dated ways to make a difference.

There simply is no excuse. Imagine if women pilots got less just because of their gender...

[Mr Nice guy]

Inspiring comments on equality everybody, but unfortunately it is all talk and no action (as usual). Even if someone were to speak up for/with the locals, i don't think it would make much of a difference. I am a local CX hopeful and therefore, of course I'd love to see things change for the better at CX. But hey, I think everyone in this thread who have talked of equality know as well as I do that it is much more of an "ideal" concept rather than a "practical" one. Let's face it, realistically speaking, there will always be a difference between the "locals" and the "expats".

[beeforchicken]

yeh, nice one mister nice guy. what sort of attitude and incentive does that comment give? "locals and expats will always be different". you have anything positive to say? these guys have to start somewhere. how about a bit of support and encouragement, if that is what's required?

[WUN WING LO]

Mr Nice Guy
with attitudes like yours I'm sure you'll be the first to sign COS 2001 if you ever get in to CX.
The LEPs have been, and still are, extremely sceptical of the AOA and the expat body as a whole. I won't go into the history of how this came about but the boys were let down in a big way when the first LEPs joined over ten years ago. Attitudes among the expat body and the AOA has drastically changed over the years. The one thing that the last decade should have at least taught us is that of unity. Yes, we do have dissenters in the ranks but by and large the pilot group has stuck together. The LEPs still harbour suspicion of the AOA, that is not to say that we won't or haven't supported resolutions. Until support is seen to be reciprocated by the expat body and the AOA for our unique problems the LEPs will be reluctant to voice to the Company their anxieties. Support breed confidence and unity. Simply put "ARE YOU BACKING US"???

[ils747]

So true Thrust, too little too late.

Benefits should be for all pilots and not just a selected group. Cathay being voted one of the best employers recently was a ill informed survey.

[wok4CX]

Ivana..Trump,

If you read the COS,as you said,you normally
will threat as Expatriate.
That's what I believe.

w4CX

[fcom5]

jumpseat,

true, based crew don't get a housing allowance. However, upto what percentage of their salary do they need to put aside for a decent accomodation in their bases? And, how is that compared with what a LEP pays for a decent box in HK? I think some sort of allowance should be there to bridge the gap.

[geh065]

A decent place in HK for an SO LEP will cost him/her at least half of their salary. This is a lot.

Also it is a tradition in many families for the children to 'pay' an amount of their salaries to their parents, as a sort of respect/payback, especially (and right so) if they live at home. We have expatriates from all walks of previous life in Cathay and most are probably earning quite a bit more than here than they were previously and enjoying better standards of living. On average, who in other jobs gets to enjoy exclusive clubs and yachts and sports cars and long foreign holidays?

For LEPs though, the job here is not bad, but doesn't compare to many in Hong Kong. Is it right that LEPs have to have a lower standard of living than the expats merely because they are local? Basically, an expat living in HK has the same cost base as a local living in HK, so why the different treatment? An expat guy that joined the same time as I did tells me about the new place he has bought, all the nice furniture and renovations he has done as well as the new club he has joined and I tell him that I live at home because I cannot afford to do anything else, yet we do the same jobs for the same company. Is this fair?

[Healey]

Come on guys let's not make this a race issue. Hong Kong has no military/GA structure hence the requirement for expats.Any expat package has to be attractive.
Expats invariably have many years of aviation experience much of it paid for out of their own pockets.
LEPs are sponsored through the cadet scheme and have all their training paid for.
Some inequity in salary/conditions is not unreasonable.

[Mr Nice guy]

I tend to agree with Healey, despite my identity as a local. Some of the ex-cadets would probably not have been in this dream job of theirs if it wasn't for the cadet scheme. I know and have seen people who do it the hard way through GA and I believe they rightfully deserve to have better benefits.

[Light station]

MNG, majority of people work very hard to get an airline job, in order to be qualified to join the cadet scheme a few years ago, you must at least have a few credit science subjects for the AL exam or have a degree, I worked hard for that qualification does it mean that the company should also pay me for hard work.

Do you know the training cost for the cadet is only worth two years housing allowance.

[jtr]

Why do s/o`s get less housing than those above?
Why do those who joined after `93 get paid less?
Why do those who joined after `95 not get a travel allowance?
Why do those who joined after `97 get reduced benifits?
Why do Cadets not get housing allowance until they become Captains?
So many questions, so little time

[fcom5]

There are so many ways to justify the fact that expats get more benefits than those of a local. The whole aricrew community have heard it before because management has told us about these many many times. They can even justify that people doing the same job should be on different pay scales. Tough? Or is that so? It is up to us to stand up to say what is unjust.

[This message has been edited by fcom5 (edited 16 November 2000).]

[BankAngle50]

Healey writes "LEPs are sponsored through the cadet scheme and have all their training paid for. Some inequity in salary/conditions is not unreasonable."

You hit the nail on the head! In any profession the salary package is based on what the individual has to offer the company.
Expates---A full licence and much experiance.
LEP-------No licence and nil experiance.

et al

[door_jam]

Mr. Nice Guy,

You said that you believe those who did it the hard way through GA deserve to have better benefits.

In the Company, among the expat pilots, there are pilots who also started their careers as cadets in other companies, e.g. BA. Do you mean these pilots made it the easy way? Do you mean they deserve cheaper packages?

There are expat pilots who came to their positions through different ways. Do you know any employer would employ someone because of the hard way they went through, not because how well they perform in their assessment? Do you think guys like Healey got his “better package” because of how hard he did it through GA?

Come on, give these guys some respect. They got a job here because they did well in their assessment. No employer would ever give a “better” package to his employees based on their “hard way”. Only the employees justify themselves.

BankAngle50, please don’t justify yourself by claiming you are more experienced. There is a minimum experience requirement & performance assessment for the job. Anyone who have passed these requirements are as qualified as each other. Take a look around yourselves, are there any expat pilots who are more experienced than people like yourself? Do they deserve better package than yours? Among our expat B-scale pilots, do they get a “worse” package because they are less experienced? Flying hours is not the absolute measure of the suitability of a pilot, otherwise they don’t need to do assessments. Have you ever heard that people who have tens of thousands of hours did not make it to joining this company? That was because they were not suitable for the job. In this company, the problem is the attitude of some people both in the company & the aircrew body. They treat LEPs as lower class pilots because they “think” themselves are better. If the LEPs did not meet the performance standards in their checks, do you think the company would keep them? Anyone still employed by this company are doing their job because they are assessed to be capable. So don’t justify yourselves by your flying hours just because that’s all you have. By the way, the most senior LEPs have more than 11 years of commercial airline experience now. When they are 55 yrs old & still stuck with this local package, will you use the same old excuse of "less experienced"? You got to be consistent with your argument.

I don’t think LEPs are trying to justify that the expats do NOT deserve the package they are having. LEPs are less experienced initially when they joined the company. After some time, LEPs are as experienced as other pilots in the same rank & more importantly, they have been assessed based on the SAME STANDARD. How different are they?

The AOA is doing their best to fight for better benefits for their expat S/O members. There is no problem about that. The problem is those justification the AOA used are also applicable to the LEPs. The LEPs also have growing young families.

They AOA also said, “Is it fair that these junior members have half the housing assistance of their more senior colleagues?” They are just looking after their expat members as they have been in the last 11 years.

The AOA also said, “Additionally, current new joiners start as S/Os and are consequently far less able to afford the excessive burden of these school fees without financial assistance." Again, they are only talking about their own expat S/Os.

Are the LEPs not facing the same problem? The answer is the LEPs are facing MORE problems because they don’t have the worse package, they have the WORST package. The LEPs are facing more problems because they are always treated unfairly by both their company & their union.

[This message has been edited by door_jam (edited 13 November 2000).]

[fcom5]

Bankangle50,

I don't think the issue here is about whether the guy is a local or an expat. It is also not about experience nor license. The issue here is fairness.

When you talk about experience, please take a look at ex-F/Es becoming pilots. Some of them have the same experience as that of some LEPs. However, I am not saying they should get less pay or less benefit. What I am saying is we are in the same company and we are doing the same job to the same required standards. Otherwise, we just won't be here. There were guys who could not make it (direct entry F/Os, cadets, ex-F/Es) and had to leave. The real issue is whether you can do the job.

License. Again you know better than I do. It just proves that someone knows the suject and doesn't have any bearing whatsoever on his/her ability to fly. Ask some ex-F/E whether they know someone in thier group only just got his ATPL. But, that did not affect his ability to fly.

[Thrust]

Don't sell the F/E pilots short there FCOM5.
They have a huge amount of experience compared to a CX cadet.

On average I would suggest 5 to 10 years as a ground engineer plus 10 years as an F/E. Thats 15 to 20 years in the aviation industry compared to 20 to 25 years on the planet for LEP starters.

[Checkmate]

Sorry to disagree on this one Thrust. I have trained several Ex FE's and they are no better or worse than any cadet. However I still think FE's make aviation safer, and more fun!

[Thrust]

You are a nutter if you equate an ex-F/E pilot to a new cadet arrival. I know the majority of my colleagues wouldn't agree with your statement. Think about what you are actually saying. Experience obviously counts for nothing in your book, don't think I'd like you training me! You must be a real expert.

The ex-F/E's that I've flown with are hacking the CX programme with no problems.They deserve what they have got. You need to get out on the line a bit more.

[Thrust]

And another thing, no better or no worse? What rubbish. So all new pilots are the same to you. No doubt you think they all know nothing. Sounds like CX old school to me.

[fcom5]

I didn't make myself very clear in the first place. When I say the experience of our ex-F/Es, I am talking about thier flying experience. Our ex-F/Es colleagues certainly have lots of valuable experience and thier technical knowlegde on the flightdeck is unreplacable. Yet, on the flying side SOME (not all) of our ex-F/Es only have a couple hundreds hours before they flew a big jet in CX, similar to what SOME LEP joint with

However, I was trying to point out the flaw in BankAngle50's arguement:

"In any profession the salary package is based on what the individual has to offer the company.
Expates---A full licence and much experiance(experience).
LEP-------No licence and nil experiance(experience)."

To categorize different pilot groups like that will be too general and with no depth. Even worse is to use such an arguement to justify our expats should get better salary package.

Going back to the issue of benefit, housing in particular, I think housing is included in the expats benefits not because of their experience. Otherwise, our expats F/O and our senior check guys should receive different housing. The benefeit is there because the expats need it for their families, their wifes and kids. In my opinion, the family, wife and kids are as dear to an LEP as those to an expat.

[This message has been edited by fcom5 (edited 18 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by fcom5 (edited 18 November 2000).]

[Thrust]

Accepted Fcom5. A whole new thread could be made about F/E pilots!

It's all at the will (or lack there of) of the company it seems. With a stroke of a pen the LEP's lot could be adjusted to match the other officers employed. B-scales could be gone and we would be a happy bunch again!?

It's not fair and I can't see any changes being made in the NEAR future. Our management are a pig headed bunch and the conditions of employees do not interest them. The dollar says all they want to hear. They are 10 years behind effective, correct management styles now being employed by large US corporations. They just keep their heads buried in the sand. That's the problem of in house training of zoologists (pilots?) etc to man manage.

[ils747]

Checkmate, you must be joking. The FE's are miles ahead of the majority of cadets and rightly so with all their experience. In fact some newbies comment what a positive help having a former FE in the same course was.

[Ms Kangaroo]

I guess it is not only in Cathay that this happens but it seems like a Hong Kong wide problem:

By: OnTheBANDWAGON
PlaneTalk7.com
NATIVE SPEAKERS:... BULL****

I read in the SCMP about a non caucasian who has lived in the USA for most his life, got his education there and highly qualified yet he was turned down for teaching jobs at international schools because they said they wanted "NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS" Obviously meaning white only. Didn't even get a proper interview.

This is disgusting and the government should take steps to wipe out this blatant racial discrimination.

People should be hired on their merits regardless of their colour and race.


[This message has been edited by Ms Kangaroo (edited 19 November 2000).]

[Checkmate]

Thrust/ils747. Perhaps my previous post was misleading. If I replaced "cadet" with LEP it would have read better.
Some of our LEP X-cadets are not too far from the LHS, and some are trg SFO's.
As for the Ex FE's they are all SFO's, with the exclusion of one who struggled and eventually left CX.
As pilots, I still deny one group is any better than the other. I know, I check them.
Thrust. As for calling me a "nutter" you detract from what has been up to now a very reasonable and balanced topic.




[This message has been edited by Checkmate (edited 19 November 2000).]

[Thrust]

Sorry checkers, just a friendly comment from one nut to another!

By the way the majority of ex-F/E's (ie the 8 that came on line in 1996) are year 4 F/O's and not yet senior F/O's. They did leave their previous vocation as senior F/E's though. Nice to be able to correct someone else for a change. The vast majority are relief qualified.... now there's a big step. (not)

[Checkmate]

Thrust. Hands shaken? I will let this very worthy thread move on. See you on Wed? I'll be there. Rgds Checkers

P.S. Thought you had to be an SFO to be relief, but can't be botherd to look it up, and too old to care.



[This message has been edited by Checkmate (edited 19 November 2000).]

[Light station]

At the time when CX only employed experienced guys, i.e. direct entry FO, some people come in with 1500 to 2000 hours and they were considered experienced pilots, nowadays, for the LEP with a couple of thousand multi-engines jet hours and have been working with airlines for many years, they are still being considered inexperienced by some people.

What is experience??? Give me a definition please, is that in your mind, as long as we are not white, we can never be experienced one day???

[happyldg]

To: Light Station
CX is originally set up for the Brits. All the benefits are geared towards them to work in HK and retire back in their home country comfortably.

So when they have to hire LEP, naturally they look at the LEP as lesser human. In their eyes, you are a lesser person than they are. This is the basic colonial thinking! The LEP are locals and therefore your "standard" of living are lower. So, they expect your to live with the rats or like one.

However time have change as more LEP are hired, I can see either everyone gets the same benefits or the expat will get their taken away in the future. Or the benefits be reduced to cut operating cost. It does not take a genius to see that if the local can do the same job for less cost, why would they have to pay more??

Your experience has nothing to do with it. If the senior LEP FO are with any major carrier(ie:SQ, UA), they would have been promoted to Capt. and got a proper seniority number years ago.

The Bulls#** they shove down the LEP's throat is unbelievable. Few of our fleet managers are former cadet themself(ie: Airbus fleet). Yet, their career advance rapidly without problems. So, for them to hold back the LEP's advancement for lack of experience is pure prejudice!

Colonialism is still going strong and well at CX. Don't be fool...... :mad:

As for the AOA, I say the LEP should approach the AOA and demand them to get some result or we resign from the AOA. Why should we give money to an association that look after the interest of others only.

[747Dryvr]

I was a Flight Engineer on both 727, 747 and also a aircraft mechanic. I now serve as a
B-747 Captain and this was brought about because of my numerous years as a cockpit crew memeber. Watching those in front of you is more valuable then you can ever think. Going from a 172 to 747 is a very tough task and this is why S/O's are giving a non flying meaning takeoff and landing position. Look at it as a flight engineer position in a way. Sit there pay lots of attention and ask many questions and stay current in flying and you should prosper. You are being given a chance of a lifetime which know one in the USA and other parts of the world will ever exp like you do. First be a good S/O then become a great F/O and then you will be a great Captain. Good Flying.... and keep the greasy side down....

[ButtMunch]

747dryvr how did that interview go?

[18weeler]

Door jam, If you think the aoa is just an expat union, it is only the fault of the many LEP's who are non-members. If you are not a member it is very hard to hear your voice!
I assume you are a member DJ but I know many of your LEP colleagues are not.
Criticize the AOA from the inside so you can do something about it, not the outside!

[Sweet FA]

FAr be it for me to comment on this subject but I'd like to say that the unity the Pilots seek should be far easier to achieve than for us FA's who have so many nationalities.

Pilots are also more cohesive when it comes to most situations involving the company so it would make sense one would think to work together to improve everybodies situation.

As for the FA population we are far off the mark which is sad.


Sweet FA.........over and out.

[Thrust]

English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Australian, South African, Zimbabwean, Canadian, American, Danish, New Zealander's, Papua New Guinean, Indonesian, Kenyian, Tanzanian, Mauritius, German, Dutch and Chinese to name a few of our nationalities Sweet FA! I'm sure there are more too.

Your Union is what YOU make it. I can see your problems though.

[Magenta Line]

....Belgian, French, Spanish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Swiss, Japanese, Italian....

Sweet FA, there are probably as big a cultural difference between all those nationalites, which Thrust and I have mentioned here, as there is between various Asian nations. However, we do have one thing in common: we all want a LONG and REWARDING career with this company and we are willing to fight for it.

[This message has been edited by Magenta Line (edited 28 November 2000).]

[1-stripper]

You mean there is no Canadian at CX?

[Thrust]

Let me see, ah yes, eight words into my post above.

[Healey]

There is the same whingeing going on over at planetalk7 where cabin crew are complaining that they should receive the same benefits as the pilots. What is it with the local culture? Why do they always expect something as a right just because someone else has it and then when they don't get it they cry racism?
Grow up lads for Christ's sake!

[satcom]

I think CX should cut all the housing allowance next year to make all staff equal. (It would reduce the cost too.)
minimum 24000x1000 ~300milion per year more profit and all of us will share 1 week more salary.

[Healey]

It's good to members of MENSA joining us!

[Ms Kangaroo]

I don't think anyone there has said they expect what the pilots get in terms of housing Healy. At least I didn't see that.

What the FA's want is basically enough housing to not have to share a flat and still live in a decent place. This decent place would probably be sneered at by the pilots.

Whether or not you want to go as far as to call it racism is up to the individual. I personally don't care what the reason behind it is, just interested in the cure.

As for shelving housing allowances all together, when you go to places like the UK or Aus or Canada, there is no such allowance for expats so you have an arguement. I do suspect it will be less attractive proposition to join CX though.

Stay cool everyone, just a discussion here.

[Guru]

Can anyone tell me how active a role do the LEPs take in disputes with the management? the comments from a lot of you give the impression that they largely remain quiet.

[Mr Nice guy]

Guru, when are you going grading? Or have you already been?

[EX HARBOUR DOOD]

What about Tiku??
He is black!!!

[Guru]

Mr. Nice Guy, glad you remember what I'm doing!

I've got a call from FCR at last! Thank you to you all with your advise.
I'd love to tell you guys all the details but is it ok to expose myself here? My situation is a bit unusual so it'd be easy to identify me if someone has access to my files :) I'm happy to send private e-mails, though. Just let me know!

[Mr Nice guy]

Guru, i'd liek to hear from ya.. email me...

[fossil fuel]

EX DOOD,
What is your point?

[wishtobeapilot]

I know there's this big issue of whether ethnic Chinese get paid less. I'm neither an employee nor a pilot for CX so I'm in no position to comment. I'm a Canadian Chinese who applied for their cadet pilot program. I'm very envious of all you pilots who have good vision (mine is -6D) and the opportunity to work in the cockpit for a living. How much have I dreamt of such a job?! However, I must rely on their cadet program because as you all know, flight training is very expensive. Can any of you professionals offer me any advice on getting into the airline system? Working at CX might be a drag for some of you in the system, but for me, it would be a dream come true.
Does CX accept medical requirements to JAR standards? Any info whether they are going to lower their vision requirements? Any advice is welcomed.

[sigma]

Stage one

Short medical
Height, weight, eyesight ,general medical questions, bring glasses or contact lenses with you

Interview with Peggy Chung or FiFi Hui
Email them [email protected]
Questions are basic:-
Why be a pilot
Lifestyles of a pilot
How will you cope being in Canada now in HK
How did you prepare this interview
Why CX, they will ask you this cos of opportunities in Canada
She asked me why not BA cadet scheme
Strengths and weaknesses

IQ and English proficiency tests
Mental aritnmetic tests
Hand eye coordination tests using computer, rudder pedals and joystick

Good Luck and apply but beware, do not get to enthusiastic or have your hopes too high, I did. When you screw up, its like tonnes of bricks falling on you.
But Cathay will screw you around in a few years time.
Again Good Luck !

[smallwing]

Well dude, if you have -6d, you might be better off doing something about that first.

When I first applied, I was -3d, rejected. Second time, rejected. Hahhahaha.

All the best though, have you done your own flying yet?

Cheers