Macc Frustration

[Mahaba]

A few quotes from NATSNEWS January 2005.
Tiny little column at the bottom of page 2, 'According to the November traffic figures, the biggest annual traffic increase took place at Manchester centre'
Page 9,'Bob Thomson will assume the role of head of ATC/deputy general manager-ScOACC and Prestwick Centre at that point. He will also continue his activities to ensure that Manchester Centre's interests and considerations are effectively represented in all Prestwick Centre activities'-'Director operations Ian Hall told NATS News; "One of Alan's main priorities(Alan Taylor-another new face at Macc), working with Alex Bristol when he takes up the general manager's post at Manchester, will be to establish strong and positive working relationships with staff and managers, and in particular the local trade unions", Admirable sentiment?-same article' he will fulfill this role for a period of ABOUT a year until his retirement'.

So...what's my point? I really can't put my finger on it, but it feels like the steamroller's gearing up again with new managers placed just to 'carry out corporate orders' like closing Macc with as little fuss as possible. How can you commit to staff, managers, unions and the like and address their real concerns and worries when you'll be retiring in 'about' a year. It takes half that time to get to grips with some of the issues raised about Macc on other postings here. New GM? Young ambitious, maybe a good thing...as most ATCO's however our scepticism will take some allaying.
One last thing for the 'If you want the big money (banding) then you have to work the big traffic' southern ATCO comment ( a real comment made) from our latest futile foray into the banding debacle; MACC traffic figures are now on a par with ScOACC, we have taken S29 from LACC, we have taken the East sector airspace from LACC, we are now asked to take more airspace in the S7/IOM proposals from LACC. We ARE taking your traffic, via airspace or capping, sectors that one day justified Band 5 the next day justify Band 4? WE THINK NOT!!
p.s. And we're doing all this with 85 ATCO's from an operational requirement of 105. Sorry for the rant but I believe as a unit...at last our pot is finally beginning to boil.

[Banana Split]

Looking in from the outside it seems to me you're being shafted:suspect:

[Not Long Now]

And you're not the only ones!

[Shermanator]

Any chance of you expanding on that , NLN??

[Mahaba]

I'm pleased it's so obvious to an outsider, it dispels the thought that we're maybe just making a fuss over nothing, which is how it sometimes feels. Question is, if it's so obvious to you (an outsider)...why is it so hard for the rest, including the head in the sand management, to see?
We are all very interested to see how they are going to resolve this very real crisis which is heading their way. Seems that, with this upcoming sim, we (MACC) have finally found our catalyst. Talk about slow burning!!

[BOBBLEHAT]

I sympathise with your issues. In paticular the move to NPC, there's nothing more demoralising to people than putting them somewhere they don't want to be. NATS management had better realise this sooner rather than later.

As for the banding debacle, I doubt that you'll be fond of my opinion but 73% of people (who bothered to vote) wanted this system, the union reps agreed in principle to it the year before so Prospect can only do what the majority want. I don't know anything about traffic volumes and complexity so won't comment on it but I will say that the difference in pay scales doesn't even make up for the higher cost of living in the south never mind the 'perceived' higher traffic levels or the fact that we start some mornings at 0530 etc. I'm sure someone is going to come along and shoot me down any minute now ........

With regard to the move, it would seem the most important thing is to get organised as a TU, get as many people involved as possible and influence NATS as much as possible in your favour. Don't just leave it to the existing reps. Remember how much it cost NATS to try and restore moral at LACC? They won't want to go through that again unless thay are even more inept than we think they are.

Good Luck guys and girls.

[Up a bit down a bit]

I have a dream, once said by someone with bigger oppression issues on his mind than macc staff ....perhaps, that all the en route staff could just get on with each other. we all went to college together and at the time were friends and the bickering is all so counter productive?
with that in mind i have no intention of shooting you down bobblehat, i simply wish to pose a slightly different point of view.
i have no beef with the fact that this was brought in by a majority vote, and the issue is not entirely money related, more that the work done at macc is not being fairly portrayed. macc is no longer the parochial outstation it was ten years ago. Nats figures show consistant increases in traffic over the last number of years coupled with a dramatic increase in airspace in the macc AOR. The figures, produced by nats show manchester sectors are among the busiest in terms of movements in the country. Added to that is the fact that macc was awarded a high complexity factor when the banding structure was considered.
If you devide the total number of movements by number of controllers and then multiply by the complexity factor, macc has a bigger score than lacc. it is not rocket science?! or are macc missing the point.
No one is disputing that living in the south is expensive but that was not an issue which was supposed to be addressed in that particular ballot. manipulating the figures and then hiding behind cost of living was doing a disservice to macc controllers and the job they do.
That is what people have the hump about, macc want recognition for the task they do. I am quite sure that all macc staff would not begrudge allowances for living in the most expensive areas of the country but please please dont belittle the task of others to achieve more money in the pot for living in the 'roseland'
i await a response......
:*

[JuniorX]

Up a bit down a bit, who is it who has belittled your task in order to gain more money? I have re-read Bobblehat's post and nothing in it is of that nature. Maybe I have missed some hidden meaning?

As for the increased movements, more airspace, complex traffic and high volumes of movements I sympathise with you as we have had the same happen to us for the last few years at TC (Capital, New East, more Midlands airspace) without any more ATCOs. By your rationale that means that TC should get an improved banding, don't you agree?:p

I also think Bobblehat has hit the nail on the head with regards to the move to the NPC. The only way you will be able to do anything is by organising yourselves and getting involved with the TU. Complaining about it on here will highlight what is happening to you, but will sadly have little effect on our current management.

I really hope that all you guys and gals (especially Shermanator;) ) can find some satisfactory outcome to this unpleasant situation. I can understand you not wanting to move to Scotland as I'm not overly keen on our move to LACC and that's only an hour or so down the road from where I am now.

Good luck everyone.

[Shermanator]

...if the banding system had a league aspect to it, which would be a little fairer. There's no point in griping about it, what's done is done.

Correct me if I'm wrong (it has been known to happen), but I'm quite sure that TC, MC, and ScC have all taken airspace off LACC in the last few years with more planned. I'm unsure as to who exactly LACC have taken airspace off of late. Anyone....anyone??

So if TC were promoted to Band 6 due to extra traffic and complexity, I'd be more than happy with that, meanwhile give Scotland and Manchester the Band 5 wonga, I'd take band 4.5 if we're haggling.

Junior's right though, moaning on here will achieve nothing, but unfortunately the Union system seems to be gridlocked as well, so we'll have to just hope that a fairer system is developed.

I propose a motion to (anything that's slightly in favour of northern units) gets kicked out due to the sheer weight of number of southern votes.

To be honest, the way things are at the moment, most of us at MACC would be happy if we were to get a carpark that was less than 20 minute walk from work. JuniorX and co all get to handbrake turn past the coppers into the TC carpark at minute 58 and run in (doing the EBS machine later of course!) if you park up in our place later than minute 33 it's gonna be tight, but for that we get aircrew on their way to/from their 206 cabriolets scraping their bags down our doors for no extra cost..every cloud etc!!


On a lighter note, our famil trip to ScC this week was cancelled due to blizzardous conditions along with torrential wind and rain!! Boy, I can't wait to get up there for real!!


Have it!

[JuniorX]

Park up at minute 58!?! How dare you, I've never been that early!!:D

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

By your rationale that means that TC should get an improved banding, don't you agree?
Yup!

[JuniorX]

On a serious note, can any of the MACC people tell me what the gut feeling up there is with regard to the move to NPC? Do people feel that management are so commited to making you all move that your efforts against them will be in vain, or do you think that there is still time to change their minds? I only ask because many of my colleagues at TC seem to think that this is all done and dusted, but are making this judgement with only a few facts picked up from the Nats News.

[Arkady]

"Correct me if I'm wrong (it has been known to happen), but I'm quite sure that TC, MC, and ScC have all taken airspace off LACC in the last few years with more planned. I'm unsure as to who exactly LACC have taken airspace off of late. Anyone....anyone??"

Midlands, TC East and Capital were all developed to improve flow into and out of the LTMA. These were resectorisations that were needed to increase capacity. At the time AC at LATCC had no extra suites to put them on. In fact, some tubes were being shared by ATCOs working different sectors when fully split. If the capacity increases were to be achieved there was no where else for the new sectors to go.

Sectors that moved to MACC and Scottish were intended to improve traffic flow between the units by giving (MACC particually) more airspace to play in but were really farmed out as part of Managments desperate ploy improve the staffing situation at LACC.

None of this is down to LACC ATCOs. We do our jobs and we do them well - all the TSFs continue to rise and delays are falling despite staff levels that have not improved since "O" date. We are the biggest unit in the country, we handle the most traffic and are at the forefront of En-route airspace development in the UK.

Stamp scream and yell as loud as you like for more money, recognition or respect but base your claim on your own merits. Start sniping at other units, particually the biggest one in the country, and you will never get the support you feel you deserve.

[Shermanator]

The move is gonna happen, we're all pretty much sure of that, all though the older fellas tell me that it went this far once before being told that MACC was off to NERC, so who knows. Its NATS-tastic. I'm holding out for the plan where we all get moved to a new centre in Las Vegas, and live in harmony.

As regards airspace, I didnt say anybody at NERC didnt do their job well, no-one else did, so I don't know why you feel the need to jump up and down telling us how well you do it.

I asked whether LACC had taken any airspace off anyone else, and from your reply it seems a simple NO would have sufficed.

While your at the forefront of En-route airspace development in the UK , you will be able to tell us if there are any future plans for you to take any airspace from ScC, MC or TC then won't you? And put them in the sci-fi wonderland that is NERC.

I applaud you for being the biggest unit in the country, that's nice. We have 98 controllers at MACC, our aircraft per controller ratio is marginally higher than the LACC ratio, and according the the formula that no-one understands, our complexity ratio is higher. I'm not doing anyone down, but no-one here is screaming or yelling for more money, its pointless, the statistics are there, and when they get waved at the front of union meetings, they are accused of being doctored. This does happen. So despite our current union lads doing their admirable best, it's a brick wall.

Not sniping at anyone, please find merits above. Now can someone sort me out a new carpark?

Dink dank dooo.

[Up a bit down a bit]

So much for my dream of harmony! My comments were not a snipe at a particular unit or sector or individual. Getting involved with the tu as was suggested will get us nowhere at all. The union came to manchester and stood in front of a room full of people and said "that the figures had been manipulated" (their words not mine) to achieve a pay deal that the masses would vote for. Manchester had been identified as the path of least pain. Again their words. They admitted that the formula was flawed but there wasn't enough time before the deadline to ammend it. So come conference this year a number of motions were tabled regarding the formula, and trigger points for moving up, and manchester traffic loading and all, yes ALL were voted down.
How are we at macc supposed to trust them, they told us to our face that they were stiffing us and then made no effort at all to make a mends. Management wash their hands of all matters relating to pay, and relying on the union is like asking the wolf to guard the chicken house!

we have little choice but to try and voice our concerns, in as friendly manner as poss, without indictment, on this network in a vain attempt to rally a little support out in the ranks from people who are all supposed to be pulling in the same direction?

:(

ps. i and a lot of others at manchester believe that tc should be in band 6. most planes per controller and highest complexity factor. again i draw attention to the fact that the maths is quite simple!!!

[Shermanator]

i'd just like to say how much I enjoyed the phrase "let the wolf guard the chicken house".

Good work.

[250 kts]

Sherman,

I think you are probably right in that LACC has not taken on extra airspace-but is that really an issue? What has happened is that airpspace has been transferred to units where there is still capacity in terms of suites available and staff to obtain the validations. The remaining airspace is then managed and re-designed in such a way that there is a significant increase in the traffic that can be put through the airspace.
Sector 29 was transferred to MACC simply because we didn't have enough staff to open all of the Lakes airspace without putting on major flow restrictions every day. In those days it was certainly quieter than it is now but was used even then to cap traffic that couldn't get into 3/4 without delay-as it is now. What has happened though is that the need to staff it has gone and so the capacity on 3 and 4 has gone up by around 50%-a gain to the customer I'm sure you'll agree. It is not the way i would have done it with the interface problems that now exist. In view of the old LATCC staffing at that time I would have asked for volunteers to get a "greenfield" validation on S29 and also a posting to LATCC and then onto LACC. That way we would have had people valid immediately on one sector and hopefully quickly on at least 2 more. I reckon there wouldn't have been too many volunteering to come south at that time,do you?
The same applies to the north sea. A portion of airpace was transferred to make the whole task easier for all in that area-it has worked and once again the TSF for 10 and 11 has increased by around 50% and delays in the area are almost non-existent.
Airspace design has to continue if we are to match demand and there are at least 2 major re-designs going on at LACC which will involve serious amount of re-training for all of those staff involved as well as things like IFACTS on the horizon. "Losing" airspace doesn't mean that LACC development stands still just that the rates go upin the remaining airspace. And if we are going to be a truly commercial company then that is the way it will be for the forseeable future.
I wish all at MACC the very best over what will be a very difficult 3 years and hope that management really do do their best to mitigate the change but continuously looking over your shoulders to see what happens at other units will lead to more dis-harmony than there is even now.

[BOBBLEHAT]

I thought I may get a few responses to that one and everyone has valid points. If I may just add 2 points:

1. Cost of Living WAS factored into the banding of units - hence my comments that regardless of ALL other factors the difference in pay still doesn't make up for the differential.

2. The band 5 units had working practice changes that affected them - this effectively payed for the band 4/5 differential. For example : LACC in particular making a change to start earlier than the rest of us on morning duties. LTCC getting an a.m spinning duty starting at 0530 etc. There are more and I'm sure people will probably add them - but I don't think it's really the big issue.

I think we need to remember that we all did pretty well in that pay round, much better than we may ever do again. Not many people have had 10 - 15% pay awards in the last couple of years. Some units even achieved it without giving anything away.

The point is get behind Prospect don't bad mouth and lose hope. Every single one is a volunteer (except Luxton) - come along, make a difference and influence from the correct forums. Stir up the guys and get them involved in the move to NPC - management will not be giving anything away - so it's going to ba a fight.

[JuniorX]

250, at TC we may have had the radar suites to take on extra airspace, but extra staff to train on them..don't make me laugh!!:D What has happened is that people have had to cross train, or in the case of the new east get the new validation. The trouble is, certainly on my watch, that many members of staff who do Mids/East and also one of the TMA sectors are finding it hard to get time on North/South. All that has happened is that staffing is now stretched very tight at TC. The plan soon is for trainees is to only train on one of the TMAs, which means we will lots of TMA only valid ATCOs (who will not be required to extend if they don't want to, as they will have a core validation) meaning that several sector valid people like me will find it even harder to get time on the core sectors.

As for the pay band issue I think that the example used in the first post of this thread remains valid. If the airspace was band 5 at LACC should it not be band 5 at MACC? If management decided that to improve service to our customers LACC (or TC) had to take some MACC airspace would you be happy if they said you would only get band 4 pay when rostered on that sector?

:E I know I wouldn't!!

[Up a bit down a bit]

have given up on the dream, now have a feeling that this thread could go on and on.
several points that have been raised over the last few posts....
1st. i am one of the few people who have made their peace with the fact that my career will continue in Scotia. I try to encourage others that this may not be as tragic as some think.
2nd i have checked with the union and cost of living was/is a right hand issue, to be negotiated in the next round of pay talks. I do understand that the union have endeavoured to get cost of living built in to salary so that it rises with subsequent pay increases and that was a good idea BUT it was not supposed to be addressed until pay talks end of this year.
I think i speak for everyone who lives in an area where the cost of living is perceived to be low when i say i will be mad as hell if cost of living is looked at again in the next round of talks!
3rd The 0530 start thing is not restricted to band 5 /london units. it applies to all en route controllers. Our General manager promised us that they would not be required at macc.....and within 6 months no longer works for the company!! go figure. so what happens when the new gm decides they are a good idea?
4th. i say again it is not all about the money, number of flights divided by number of controllers multiplied by the complexity figure (independently calculated) and the macc score is higher than the lacc score.
5th After the union shambles/roadshow last year why should we put our faith in them, several motions were taken to conference and were all voted down. it was their chance to undo what they had done the year before.
6th undoubtedly the one that will cause the most controversy, people work in mcdonalds in Southampton, where do they live? are they band 5 mcdonalds?
flack jacket on, ready for reply...
:ok:

[Ali Bongo]

We have 98 controllers at MACC

Shermanator .....please get your facts right ....;)

As of last Friday there were 90 ....against a planned figure of 105.

As a simple Northern Lad wouldn't that make our "planes per man x complexity / staff " figure even better? :confused:

I agree, TC should be the band 6 Unit......:ok: :ok:

[Shermanator]

Always happy to stand corrected. 90 it is, with 2 more going to be instructors at the college, 2 more with Canada dates this year, maybe more.

Is nobody interested in our new car park requirements?

I appreciate the sentiments of getting behind our union, but we had a very in depth minutes/description of the last conference, and it seems to be very much a lost cause.

Weight of numbers is how it works.

Sad but true.

Solidarity brothers.

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

1. Cost of Living WAS factored into the banding of units - hence my comments that regardless of ALL other factors the difference in pay still doesn't make up for the differential.

If that's the case, why are Southampton and London City in Band 1? Surely So'ton house prices are not too dissimilar to Swanwick's?

As for 0530 starts, it's not too bad a deal when you get sprung at 0700. It might not happen to everyone, but it's definitely happened to a few of you at LACC! Anyhoo, with our traffic continuing to climb in the early morning, Finningley due to open and BMI and EZY planning to up early morning services out of NV and NT, 0530 starts could be heading for an ACC near you, if you're in the Manchester area. Maybe that should be coming to an ACC near me!

What has happened is that airpspace has been transferred to units where there is still capacity in terms of ............ staff to obtain the validations

Why are they sending it to MACC then? We've only got 85% of OR, and falling!

As for Shermanator's obsession with car parks, alot of you lads and lasses don't know you're born. Us with the :mad: bus trip in from Staff West. Still, it'll all be different when they turn that into apron space. Where to put the staff? Warrington has been suggested! It's half way to Wales for crying out loud! Then get Sherm's whining, and we'll need to be in the car park at 0530 for a 0700 start!:{

[Nick Falzone]

It's no real secret that most of the people on 530 starts are back in bed in time for Trisha, and, as has been said, the w.practices were changed countrywide, so its irrelevant really.

Cost of living was not supposed to have been addressed in the last pay talks (I use the word supposed with a dash of sarcasm).

Manchester must have a world record, I'm serious, of the longest distance of a controller's work car park to his actual place of work. Can anyone top a 20/25 min walk? Or a 10 minute bus ride when the drivers see fit to turn up on time? Maybe that's a new thread, but it needs sorting.

It's good to hear that we have the support and goodwill of other units behind us, and I mean that. There are no real axes to grind here with other units, however we do feel like we are being treated like a lesser entity by the suits, and given all the airspace we've taken and made more efficient(S29, EAST, S7 next), given the staff shortages that continue to get worse (see OR above), given the shocking budgetary limitations we have forced on us (no famil trips allowed except to Scotland, but TC can come and have a look round at our gaff, but we aren't allowed the return leg), I hope people can see why we're a bit miffed as we see good money thrown after bad around the rest of NATS, TRM rumoured to have cost a few million (6?), CTC far nicer than any control centre etc etc.

Nice point about Lewis saying we wouoldn't be doing 0530 starts then leaving for the retirement village, think we're on our 3rd GM in as many years now. Nothing good has come from the upper floors for some time now, hopefully this time it might change, but no-one is holding their breath.

The union route has been tried, but the majority rule beats us everytime, in theory a notion such as (just an example-) for one month per year all MACC controllers have to shave their heads would be passed, with consumate ease. Somethings wrong there.

And if you're telling me that Thames Radar can sit in band 5 while Farnborough, Southampton and London City dwindle in Band 1, then I won't believe you're saying it with a straight face. The banding system was a fiasco, pleased the majority, don't get me wrong, I can see the wisdom, albeit twisted, behind it, but I'm not sure any union that can conjure up a scheme like that can be trusted not to do it again.


Why don't we all go on strike and raise hell for the day like les Francaise? Go on, you know you want to..........

[Up a bit down a bit]

Totally dig your point on the head shaving thing, what if you already shave your head? do you have to shave anything different.....?

actually, thinking about it we should not be putting ideas into the wrong heads:ooh: :(

[BALIX]

I can fully understand your reluctance to move up here as I didn't want to come here over twenty years ago. However, look on the bright side. We've got a cracking car park, right next to where the front door of NPC is going to be :ok:

[bagpuss lives]

Ha ha ha Shermanator. Some absolute gems on this thread my friend. Good work!

I wholeheartedly agree with the car park outrage by the way, never mind this going to Scotland lark. We're being moved slowly northwards that's what it is. A bit of the building at a time.

Cheadle my ****.

Today the car park, next it'll be the rest room moving somewhere up the M6 (Oh let's hope it's Chorley services with *that* coach driver. She's a thirsty girl.......) and the bogs from the 4th floor will be shuffled and flushed all the way to Carlisle.

And we'll still be able to smell them in the ops room.

[250 kts]

Junior X,

You guys at TC are in just the position we were in 5 years ago. At that time there was a majority who did, in some cases up to 5 sectors. The fact is that the new system prohibited the ability to get round that many seats. With the best will in the world staff eventually dropped validations in able to maintain competency. The situation is that we now have around 30% who hold 3 or more ( 2 is the Minimum). I would suggest that when management ask you to validate on new sectors your question is "fine-which one do I give up"? I believe even MACC are now going down the route that to do the whole room is impossible. As long as you have the minimum there is nothing they can do and there are no prizes for the folks who think it clever to keep on too many. If people really are struggling to get time on sectors,give them up.
As for 0530s-they are only required because the nights are at an absolute minimum with 4 out of the 5 area groups working 2 hours on 1 hour off on BOTH nights. Remember no SRATCO exemption and a 2 man operation at LACC at all times. I'm sure if the staffing on nights were reduced in a similar manner across all the area units the 0530s could easily be arranged-and don't believe all you hear about the 0700 departures-at Xmas maybe but not as a norm.
Is the car parking the fault of NATS or the airport owners?
Should Thames radar staff be band 6?? I really can't help but think that there are lots of people who were unsuccesful at LATCC and are now at MACC who believe that LACC have not changed in the way the unit was 5 or even 10 years ago-well it has and significantly.
I readily agree that the whole move has been handled appallingly and sincerely hope that the new GM has the ability to soften the impact for all involved.
Junior X-sector 29 was transferred well before the banding was introduced and MACC east handles significantly less traffic than it could as LACC regularly re-route traffic away from it and give it to the mil-especially at night!!!!!!!

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

MACC east handles significantly less traffic than it could as LACC regularly re-route traffic away from it and give it to the mil-especially at night!!!!!!!

Don't make out you're doing me a favour, it's London Mil who are doing the favours in this case!
Let's face it, you give the traffic to the Mil earlier then you'd give it to MACC, so it's in your own best interests too.
Hats off to London Mil for working civil traffic on less than a civil wage. It's not what most of 'em signed up for I'll bet!
:ok:

As for 0530 starts, how often have you worked the full shift? Be honest now:=

[JuniorX]

250, points taken on board, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate on this thread and trying to put myself in the shoes of the guys and gals at MACC. I for one think that they are being treated pretty shoddily by management, and that a lot of people down sarf just don't seem to care about it. As has been said before, we are all part of a group of people doing area services for NATS, shouldn't we have a common interest in each others issues?

Anyway my question at the end of my last point about hypothetically returned airspace from MACC remains - would you accept band 4 pay??:ok:

[5milesbaby]

0530 starts at LACC. So far done about 10 to 15 of these. 0700 departures? 2, both recently. 0900 to 1000 departures? About 4. Last 30 minutes departure or stay to the end, definately 5, maybe more, always during the summer shedules.

How about the late afternoons we do? I do at least one of these a month. Again recently its been a great early go but in the summer, never before 2230, a few stays to the end on the 2300 finish, and twice stayed to beyond 2330 on the midnight.

Whats an early go on nights?

MACC isn't the only place that is struggling for staff - EVERYWHERE IS. The LACC staffing numbers are set to FALL over the next year with the number of retirements and deployments against projected validations. Also our figures for staffing included all those who sit in offices and offer 4 days a month work in the radar environment to keep current, there are quite a few of these.

All that said my personal views are that it all stinks. I very happily voted against the banding system, but more on the terms and conditions side as obviously the money wasn't an issue for me. I did feel that the "divide and conquer" which seems to be happenning would progress quicker as a result, and that makes me sad. We all do a similar job, and very few had a choice of where its done. We all do busy sessions, we all enjoy the quieter moments, and we all get perks, so why can we not all be paid the same? I do think however that an accommodation/location payment be paid in accordance with the average house price in the area (30 mins travel distance) each place of work is located, but that this is the only difference. Talk to controllers that have moved centres and guage their opinions, and not the ones that worked ScATCC, MACC, AC or TC 10/15 years ago, those that have recently relocated in the last few years and find that it is all complex at all places for entirely different reasons.

What we need to do is club together and get the banding system abolished totally. All it has done is worsen the morale at the stations at Band 4 and below, and made the Band 5 units sit fat, dumb and unconcerned at the top. We would defend ourselves with facts, but no-one can be ar$ed to find them out. If you want to get us ALL onto your side, then rather than just say you're worse off, prove it by putting the full figures for staffing, movements and complexity on here for all to see. It will be a start and hopefully more and more people will begin to support your case. Threaten us with a move downwards to Band 4, and we'll all listen and do something to get a change.

My final points are to never trust anyone who says "you are eligable for this but it will never happen". If its there to be used, then eventually it will be. Somewhere along the line, especially with the figures for traffic movements set to rocket, more staff will be needed earlier and the 0530's will be enjoyed by everyone. The last pay changes have screwed us all in more ways than we could have thought, and with the "final destinations" being progressed then it will only get worse. The rumours are now out at LACC for single manning to be negotiated on nights to cover sickness, but thats a different thread. I feel sorry for those at MACC with the pending move northwards, but there is nothing that can be done about that unfortunately. However the topic of car parking can be delt with. How they can justify making staff get in so much earlier before work beats me, they should start paying you from the time you park your car. Surely there must be some European ruling on this, and if not I'm sure the European Courts would be a place to get your case heard. I would say that having to park your car within 30 minutes of your start time is reasonable, so why not just do that, and if you are all collectively late then NATS will have to listen.

JuniorX - so you really expect a sensible reply to that question?

Funny how all the replies so far are from those at centres, I take it that the airports are still too enraged to join in. Maybe this should be moved to the NATS forum.....

I'll go sit in the corner now. :ouch:

[Up a bit down a bit]

250 take your point that a lot of people arrived at macc as products of the shocking latcc training program and have such do not have a high opinion of the london setup. You suggest that lots has changed at lacc over the last 10 years, well the same is true at macc. we are no longer the tiny breakaway unit we once were. in 2004, excluding the ocean, macc moved more flights than scottish centre with 60 less controllers! the whole point of this thread is not entirely money, it is some recognition from our band 5 chums that the task we perform is essentially the same as theirs.

oh yes and i hardly think it is a significant amount of traffic that cuts the corner with the military! i am valid on east and admit that it has its sleepy moments, however resent the implication that your altruism dramatically reduces our workload! Doncaster international opens in March wich at opening will add a minimum of 40 flights a day with projections of significantly more by the end of the summer. and im sure it wont be long before EGNX outbounds will be forced to file through the east sector to avoid tc and clacton flow.

seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent, just before finishing tho i should point out that we are all colleagues and should not be bickering, back stabbing, belittleing and more. we should all be pulling in the same direction for better pay and conditions for all nats employees accross the board. Band 1 to band 5

5 miles baby, watch this space for the figures used by the union, they tell a compelling story! apprecaite yr sympathy tho, we need more like you...

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

5 Miles Baby,
I agree with what you have to say, and I remember your comments on banding from the million page bitchfest at the time of the ballot. As for Ts&Cs, they're evening up across the land, we also have late afternoon shifts to contend with, although I've never been kept later than 2300 (there's the potential for 0100!)

As for movement figures, they're available from the NATS intranet. I don't think it would be wise to put them on here, as the pages are Company Confidential. Can't quite remember where they're hidden, but will try and find them to tell you where they are. That said, Prospect BEC claim that the figures are all made up, despite coming from the HCS database. They won't provide the accurate figures. They MUST have them secreted away somewhere, otherwise they couldn't make these claims.

Not sure about ScACC having 60 more ATCOs than MACC. What I do know is that we have 90 operational ATCOs, 85% of OR, and that number isn't giong to increase in any kind of hurry.
I'd be interested to know how the other centres are for staff as a percentage of OR.

[Ali Bongo]

5miles ....nice one!! Some of the wisest words spoken on here for a long time .....:ok: just wish you could convert some of your colleagues to an equally fair point of view .......:ouch:

Us at Manchester have always said both you and LACC and TC should be paid more as it is expensive where you live. Yes it is expensive in places around Machester, but there are some cheap places as well (look where up a bit ...down a bit lives for example:sad: ) an option that isn't available to you lot down there!

Our problem was always the model.......:yuk:

The figures from last year on the NATS web page are below ...

NATS Figures (http://www.nats.co.uk/news/news_stories/2005_01_07.html)

I'll let someone else do the maths as I'm just a simple Northern Lad ...anyway I'm too tired having just walked back to my car from work .....:mad: :mad:

[Shermanator]

ok so we have the figures there, all we need know is to find out the number of controllers per centre, and the exact super duper all singing all dancing complexity ratio, and we have ourselves exactly what the union couldn't manage to find out.

As an aside, the bitchfest about banding from last year is a quality 43 page read if you have no plans this afternoon, and have your feet in a bowl of water after the long walk back to your car post AM shift.


I'll do the starter for ten, MACC 548,366/90 = 6093

Question for anyone who knows, does the term "TC" include every unit that works in that room, crosswords and novels included, or just the area/TMA control lads n lasses?

Thankyou in advance, my colleagues.

I would like to start a campaign for 5 days in lieu a year for our crappy carpark situation, then I'd stop moaning. Oh, and I'd like a speed camera on Porter's way aimed specifically at japanese sports cars, and bright blue golfs.

Avanti!

[Ali Bongo]

Sherman sorry to be a pain but we went up 9% last year to 586,289 movements and our staffing level is 90. Last year we had double the increase of traffic compared to our chums at LACC and TC. So we worked 6514 planes per man. :ok:

[Shermanator]

sorry about that

It's post AM shift fatigue i think, coupled with the added distraction of trying to download the paris hilton video.

That last bit was a joke!

[Up a bit down a bit]

thanks ali bongo for your real estate assessment! i choose not to rise to your bait and sit happy in my cheap house on the moral high ground.
i would like to point out that 3 times(what most mortguage companies will give you) the average controller salary is only between 120000 and 180000 which prices all but those who have already benifited greatly from the housing boom out of a large chunk of the north west and the south of england housing market. My mcdonalds quip aside, i assume there are nurses, teachers, policemen, firemen etc in abundance down south. do they all live in trailerparks and campsites?once again we are loosing sight of our original thread and any possibility of solidarity by bickering amongst ourselves. the only reason i have bothered to make any posts is to try and gain some understanding from folk once called friends from who we recieve so little sympathy and so much indifference. particularly when everyone in the company who does not live in the south is united in agreeing with your plea for a cost of living allowance.
if only we could fight the company with as much enthusiasm as we seem to fight eachother

[5milesbaby]

1,771,875/330 = 5369. But that does include LAS's and part-timers (see below). And our positions are ALWAYS manned by 2 people, not one like everywhere else with a shared co-ordinator.

A very rough guess is that we have around 330 controllers at Swanwick working in the ops room. I got that figure by working out how many are on our watch and multiplying by 5 (watch balancing has just occurred to make all watches almost even again). I have no idea how many 'operational' staff work outside the ops room. This figure does include all the LAS's as well as the controllers, and for a ballpark figure, we have 5 part-timers and I think 2 off on maternity leave. So an average guess of 300 controllers available for any shift basically, but obviously this figure cannot be used in the model.

However, if we were to open ALL the available sectors at the same time we would need 63 staff to occupy the seats, and then a further 25 on breaks to enable no-one goes out of hours, so thats 88 staff, and we have 67 on our watch, which is just under 25% understaffed. Things will only get worse when the West End increases from 5 to 7 sectors this year, which is another 4 bums in seats and 2 more needed on breaks. Working out that the office staff do 4 days a month out of 18 average, then it takes 4.5 office staff to make 1 controller, so you could probably only add 3 more controllers to the amount we have.

My biggest problem with the model is that if it looks like either LTCC or LACC are falling, they will just introduce a slightly modified complexity component to make sure we don't. You know they would too......thats why we need to change sooner rather than later, or our inter-NATS relationships will fall further apart.

[Air Show Bob]

Having just lifted the figures that Prospect used as the number of votes at the last conference (1 controller - 1 vote) - they should be accurate - ish,

its LACC (490)
TC (336)
ScOACC (220)
MACC ( 110) although there is only 90 so I suppose everyone elses might be slightly off as well ....

Happy adding / dividing and taking away everyone :ok:

[5milesbaby]

Looking at those figures and my previous post then they are way out, I think they also include the office staff etc.

[Up a bit down a bit]

would just like to point out that srg require macc to double man between 0600 and 0001. single manning definately a thing of the past.

[Don't Tell Him Pike]

And there's no shared coordinators. We work radar and coordinator, the same as LACC.

[JuniorX]

5miles, I completely agree with your sentiments, the reason I posed the question was to highlight the flaws of the banding pay system. I, like you, see the effect that the flaws in the banding system has on the relationships between the north and south units. For everyone like you at LACC (or me at TC) who has sympathy for the MACC folk there is probably three or four who don't give a monkeys. Don't you think?

And Sherman, there's been no need for a speed camera on porters way since you took your expensive motors up north!!(maybe the fashion police should look at bright blue convertible golfs tho')

[PH-UKU]

Scuse my simple maths folks, but just because a unit has more movements, doesn't mean that it is necessarily busier.

That was one of the glaring unresolved problems with the model. Traffic 'volume' was hugely weighted to numbers of aircraft, but it didn't actually take 'volume' into account.

If all the sectors are small 60 mile sectors then each aircraft may only be on freq for 10 minutes.

However, it is worth remembering that some units have 200 mile sectors where ac can be on sector for 30-40 minutes.

So, the Q is .. if I have 15 ac on freq for 30 minutes each, am I working more or less than a short sharp shock sector with 45 per hr TSF at 10 minutes each?

The model would tell you that I am working at a third of the other sector ... which is pish ! And the stains on my trousers prove it !!

The model and grading were crap and divisive and it is a pity that more people did not bother to try and grasp the flawed maths behind it.

[250 kts]

Well here we are a year on and people still have nothing to complain about except what their counterparts 300 miles away are working and earning and how far the car park is away from work.
Over 70% voted in favour of the banding-like it or not it is here for the foreseeable future.Many got substantial rises and had to do absolutely nothig to get it. Other units made major WP changes and got something-big deal. You MACC guys need to stop beating yourselves up about the banding and ask "Is what I get for the job I do a reasonable salary" Yes or No? If it really is "no" then there is a major problem because I haven't read anything that suggests that people are unhappy with what they get-just with what others get. You'll be telling me next that PF aren't happy with what PH get!
As for the car parking. Is this a Manchester Airport issue or a NATS one? I suspect the former. And I see from Shermanator that his only interest is AAVAs-not a problem walking long distances with the prospect of an AAVA at the end of it. Also we don't hear too much moaning from the junior folks at Heathrow who often have to live more than an hour's drive from work just to be able to afford a property and then have to park on the Northside when they get to Heathrow.
As I said before I have every sympathy for the MACC guys but the world doesn't owe you a living and it isn't always fair the way things turn out. There are many major hurdles which face all of us in NATS over the next few years-let's pull together to ensure we get the best for all of us and if that means that certain parts of the organisation benefit earlier then so be it. What is really important is that we all got substantial rises and it is on these that any further rises will be built upon.

[5milesbaby]

250kts, you just back up exactly what I have been saying that many down at Swanwick don't give a toss what happens elsewhere now we have been given the Band 5 rating. Why do we deserve the best pay when most of Manch didn't have much choice being where they are, just like we didn't have much choice being where we are? We all control aircraft with the same rules and goals and we all work busy periods when we think our lives are about to end, so why should someone else doing the same job get more retrospectively? You mention that MACC staff should ask themselves if they feel their salary is unjustified or not. I personally feel that my Band 5 salary is unjustified if you compare it to those working in the city for finance/computing companies and some of our European counterparts. However I also take the view that I get what I get and its a damn sight better than not being in NATS for my skills that I have. Pi$$ed off but happy in the same sentance.

As for the Manch car parking issue, then the guys and gals up there work for NATS and are being told they have to park over 30 mins away from work, THATS A NATS ISSUE if they care for their staff as who would want someone to have to do that journey before sitting in front of a hectic radar?

If it was you, you'd be ranting Mary Hell in here, and elsewhere, so take some consideration for your collegues, we are all the same after all. If you want to get people to pull together to ensure we get the best for all of us, then start thinking that what you have is slightly unjust to what they have, and then maybe we'll start being a little more unified.