Lets All Wake Up

[KiloBravo14]

Hey there all u p-pruners, I was just thinking about all the foreigners, coming and taking the bread out of our young South African pilot's mouths....Its time to protect our little cesspool of an industry for the younger generations of pilots coming thru the ranks at an alarming pace. We have so many licenced, unemployed young guys and girls out there, and yet you all advertise to, and invite the outsiders, for whom getting ratings and validations costs just about nothing compared to the hellish prices paid by locals, just to try make themselves employable. Ponder this...for one of us to go and get a licence that actually means something, not to mention the rights to work in their countries, is nigh impossible due to financial constraints etc, but for them its a cinch to come and operate our machines, keeping our pilots on the ground. It also alarms me, at how easily the operators hire foreign pilots, slap them with a validation and send them on contract in our machines....Protect our industry people, or else one day it might be you or your kids who sit and watch all the pretty little ZS a/c flying around, speaking in strange tongues on the radio.....:ok:

[Rhodie]

Wellllllllllll.............

He does have a point really.......

Mind you, I never passed tact and diplomacy 101 either.... :E

R

:ok:

[south coast]

on the same note perhaps send all the south africans flying for cathay, nippon air, singapore airways and emirates home too!

come on kilo bravo, don't be so foolish.

[Cap Loko]

Well KB14 I can give you some hints why, because SOME South Africans with an attitude like you are not liked by potential employers. Besides, what about all the South Africans flying outside of Africa? Guess you are not trying to find a job outside Africa?
I'm an European as you may notice. I have JAA and FAA licenses and even had a South African validation license on which I was flying ZS aircraft.
The pilot market is an international one and if you don't like this, well then that's your problem.

Cheers

[SASless]

Uh oh...facts getting in the way of a good whinge.....not cricket dear boy!

[yogibear]

Sheesh guys you are turning this into a bash KiloBravo14 thread.

Let the guy vent....we all need a good vent now and again....just a pity some of you vent from the wrong part of your anatomy..:}

Hey KB14.....with you all the way bud.....:ok:

[KiloBravo14]

The BEEEEG fact you're all missing, is that our little CAA slip, doesnt really get recognised throughout the world, whereas FAA, anr JAR is your ticket. Our industry also bears no semblence to those of the first world, and here its tooth and nail, between the south africans, now add all those with the " power tickets " and whats left for the new youngsters????? Forget about about the airlines, i'm specifically referring to the contract market, which should be the place where iur new pilots go to cut their teeth, but those seats are already full of foreign butts....not right my friends. The airline market doesnt really belong to anyone, but we must protect our training ground....

OH, and by the by, no need to worry about me folks, I\'m working as the chief pilot for a large american aviation company, flying ZS planes, but not in Africa, so before you think i\'m some sour puss without a job.......its the hundreds of youngsters that pay hundreds of thousands every month with great dreams and aspirations, only to find that the seats are already taken....its them I worry about

[birdlady]

:E :E :E :E :E :E I think I might have had something to do with this thread.......:E :E :E :E :E

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

No offence, but I was under the impression that this game is an international one and if a person has what an employer wants, whether from that particular country or not, he will get the job ? I've worked in Hong Kong, Brunei, Germany, France, Nigeria and Canada and nobody ever questioned why I got the job as a foreigner, only if I could do the job !!

Perhaps a better question you should be asking is why SA employers take foreigners and not home grown people ?

Cheers,

NEO.

[KiloBravo14]

AHA, now u see what i'm getting at, my gripe is not with any pilot that gets a job here, its purely with the operators, who dont care about the local chaps

[south coast]

i think these days contract companies dont really care who they employ so as long as they meet customer minimun requirements.

also, there may well be lots of newly licenced south africans looking for their first job, but when some foreign pilot presents themselves with the required rating and some time on type, you can understand why they get the nod ahead of someone who needs the initial rating.

i understand your point, but unfortunately national socialism went out after ww2.

[B Sousa]

KB14
If you are a Chief Pilot somewhere its because some company liked your resume, not because your South African. Same with most all companies. They hire on resumes to get what they need to make money......Nationality means squat.
I think your jabbing the folks to get a rise because Im sure we can send back more South Africans than you can export........

[Jockflyer]

KB14,

If your point is valid (which I don't think it is), the perhaps all the South Africans (and all others) should piss off out of the UK, where you all come to get well paid jobs (aviation and otherwise).

The UK student pilot probably pays more for their license than any other country, and don't all have rich dad's to pay for it.

I flew in Zambia for 2 years and loved it. Now back in the UK. My mates fly all over the world (Hong Kong/NZ/OZ/Afganistan). That is the nature of the business. You have even said that you fly abroad!!!!!

The employer will pick who is best for the job in their opinion, and I don't beleive that Government should be allowed to tell then who they can and can't hire.

Not wishing to get any more contoversial, but the last time a certain group of "South Africans" tried to keep what they had all for themselves, the world seemed to turn against them (I'm sure you know what I mean).

In the UK, if I phone Directory Enquiries, then I'll probably be put through to a call centre in India!!

The world is a smaller place now, probably best if you come to terms with that.

BTW, what I've said should be taken in the correct manner, its not meant to offend.
Cheers

JF

[KiloBravo14]

OK so you busted me, i got the rise i was lookin for, you win, you sky gods you....one day when im big

[Jockflyer]

Hilarious.....:ugh:

[KiloBravo14]

I'll rather just take that route out of this thread, cause to have to continue pulling this train of thought apart, with someone who thinks that mentioning the actions of certain @rseholic figures of past, would just bore, and tire me to the point of projectile vomiting at your post. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: On the positive side, know that you have my sympathy, you are a sad sad person

[ShenziRubani]

KB 14, I guess this thread will die of a silent death, but I wanted to note that I got a shock when I read you. What had happened in the last year, since I left East Africa?! What cataclysm had fallen on the South African pilots?!! Is it payback time? Is it that what goes around comes around: listen Chief Pilot, we have been complaining about the same thing in East Africa, West Africa, the Indian Ocean, North Africa, over the last 10 years: complaining over the cheap South African pilots coming to take the bread out of our plates. They had good resumes and were cheap. Every operator would want one.

Well, it is the nature of our industry, it is the nature of aviation. From the day some dudes on a beach put an engine and a wing together and got it flying, this machine was gonna be travelling the world and its pilots too, looking for jobs wherever they could. Protectionism is not good in our industry sir.

[ecnalubma]

Well not exactly on the same vein but, you can have all the South African doctors who have immigrated to Canada back if you are going to complain about the pilots from other countries coming there.

[Rhodie]

Sheez Ecnalubma - PLEEEZ can we have some doctors back... :ouch:

There are bugger-all left here - except, of course, for the Cuban's and a few others who seem to have forgotten both the Hippocratic (?) Oath and their medical training... :(

As for KB14 - as I said earlier, not a bad point.. The thing is really, I think he is mainly referring to the youngsters who are (trying) to start out. Ya'know, the guys who have saved up and battled to get their com licence and now try to get a job on a small charter licence, flying small singles for a Rand a mile... NOT the guys on King-Airs and the heavies... totally different world that and no-one will question that it is truly an international market.

We all know youngsters who would give their all just to get a job in their chosen field, so one day they can also fly for the big boys around the world.

Cheers

R

[Tzar]

No worries KB send your new pilots here for expierience. and we will come down to SA. Ohh we have already-sorry

Tzar

[Bravo190]

come on Bond....don't be so hard on the poor guy! any news from Q400 company??

[BAKELA]

If KB14 became Minister of Transport in SA and all Sefrican crews were send back to SA I reckon operators like Emirates may be grounded! Are they not called the SAAF old boys club?

As for the quacks, the last one we got back from Canada was convicted of rape across there (even was on TV - Medical Detectives)...no wonder we got him back. He obviously belongs in SA...

[contraxdog]

To fly a South African Reg. A/C one needs a SACAA License or validation, but no work permit as long as you dont fly in SA. To Fly a N-Reg or JAA Aircraft I suppose you have to have the same. Can I validate my SACAA License for FAA or JAA in order to fly those outside the confines of the US or Europe? Or do I have to rewrite and re-test for those licenses. And If I did would I have to have to get a green card/workpermit to fly for a living there.
The question is there resiprocity.
Why recognise their FAA and JAA issued licenses if they dont recognise SACAA Licenses?

Just asking?

[Bleedvalve]

I agree with some aspects of what KB14 is saying.
We must ensure some ways of keeping young pilots coming into the market for a career.

The operators are too eager to take outside pilots and are forgetting our local guys. Everybody always say you must get x-amount of hours but nobody gives you the oppertunity to get those hours.

Young pilots with 300hrs and less are left behind with no oppertunity. The companies must ensure that there is a constant flow of young pilots coming into aviation.

The pay in Africa dropped quite a bit in the last few years. Some pilots are flying for a 1000 USD/month. With that money they must survive and pay their license back.

KB 14 :What is your company doing for young pilots?
Hopefully somebody will start a program where these youngsters can be helped.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Bleedvalve,

You're dead right, but (and I'm not saying I agree with it), the same situation exists almost everywhere. Which company trains their own pilots anywhere these days ? That would reduce the profit margin !!

There will come a time when the gap (which will exist because the companies will realise and start training when it's too late) between the experienced, employable (and expensive) pilots and the self motivaved ones will be too large and there will be a shortfall.

Mark my words !!:ok:

[I.R.PIRATE]

I would just love to know what the actual conversion percentage (in terms of students who complete com, and actually go on to become proffesional pilots) of the numerous flight schools in SOuth Africa are. If one goes and looks at the number of students in comm training, and the amount of jobs available for brand new sandbags....I dont think we'll be surprised to see a rather lopsided equation. So what happens to all those guys and girls? So in actual fact, flight training operators are selling the emperor's invisible clothes....good business!!

[SIMBA KALI]

KB14,
Why don't you start your own airline and :mad: move to Cuba!! They will scratch your back while you scratch theirs :} Lets all look at our career as a noble proffession with no limitations. Of course , the best credentials alwayz win.

[MungoP]

Young pilots with 300 hours or less having difficulty finding their first job ?...WOW...I'm shocked...shocked d'you hear ??
Can this be happening anywhere else in the world...???? Surely not !

[Skaz]

shame, well here's a funny to illustrate that sometimes, those little pilots get their own back......heard it thru the grapevine, so dunno how true it is, still:

youngster in Windhoek working for one of the small companies, enquires at one of the bigger companies re what the future job prospects are looking like. Present employer finds out and fires him!
Not to be outdone ,the intrepid youngster takes said-previous employer to court and sues for 80 000 smackaroos!

haha, vat so katvis!:ok: :} :ok:

[V1 Rotate]

There are dozens of South Africans flying in Europe. I seldom hear any complaints from the locals though.
V1

[MungoP]

This problem is obviously worthy of closer inspection and the first step should be to conduct a survey amongst South African pilots....we can have a questionair printed up which could then be sent out to them in:

Kenya, Botswana, Tanzania, The Congo, Nigeria, Namibia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malasia, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand,The UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Europe, The USA and Canada....

you know...we could be on to something here.....:O

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Skaz

It's happened before, it'll happen again. The usual move is to apply pressure from within and make the situation untenable to force the person out.

As for low time guys without jobs, it happens like that all over. Reserving jobs will only damage future prospects in the outside market and is nothing but a short term measure. The AIC just pointed out by the SACAA is a short term step but will backfire if it's implemented. It basically says only SA citizens/passport holders are to be issued with a SA licence.:confused:

How many flying schools will have their business curtailed by this step? Young Comms want to be an instructor? Sorry! No need, as we don't get that many students here......

[birdlady]

Solid Rust

:mad: :mad: :yuk: :mad: :yuk: You read it in the AIC? Please expand.******* ignorant ******* What about those of us in CPL training? Anybody else heard this rumour?

[MungoP]

Such :mad: language from a lady ????

[Solid Rust Twotter]

BL

It was included in the latest Notams and AIC/AIP package from CAA. More info on Avcom.

Now go wash your mouth with soap, young lady...:E

[birdlady]

plah plah plah dove doesnt taste so good. :p :p
Sorry about that gentlemen. Shouldnt come from anyone let alone a lady. One just gets a bit hacked off from time to time.:E :E

[south coast]

if a person from another country comes to sa, and pays to do the training here, ie. cpl/atpl/ir/me, should that country not allow him/her to work for a south african company outside the borders of sa?

i agree that each country should protect their own pilots within their borders.

i have done both the sa licence and european one and in my personal opinion there are many more pilots in sa who have had their parents just fork out the money for training straight after they leave school, and just due to the cost of training in europe it is failry uncommon to hear of such stories, although obviously there are...but my point being, that maybe some investigation should be done by both parents and potential 'wannabes' with regards to how the industry works and what the realistic chance of getting a job with 200 hours is...

perhaps the sa caa should put a yearly quota on how many people can train, obviously flight schools would be against such a scheme, but it may reduce the heartache of many, and keep $1000 a month jobs to a minimum.