Lost comm prior coast out to NATs

[KC-10 Driver]

Quick question for those of you who use the NATs on a regular basis...

I teach an instrument refresher course which is an annual requirement for USAF pilots. A question came up in my class the other day into which I hope someone on this board may have some insight.

The scenario is that you are enroute to your oceanic entry point, without having yet received your oceanic clearance, and you are unable to obtain the clearance due to lost comm (or any other reason).

We have been teaching that in this case, you are expected to continue on the route of your filed flight plan (rather than holding at the oceanic entry point, or turning around) and proceed onto your filed NAT. Then upon coast in on the other side, if still lost comm, comply with relevant state procedures.

A student in the class last week was, besides being a KC-10 instructor pilot, also an American Airlines 767 F/O. He told me that the procedure outlined above is true with Gander (heading eastbound).

However, he told me that he has been taught by AA that Shanwick (when heading westbound) would expect you to enter holding at your oceanic entry point, until such time that you could either obtain clearance, or have to turn around and land somewhere.

Is this correct?

Anyone on this board care to offer some guidance -- specifically references?

I apologize if this question seems rudimentary. While I did fly the 767 on trans-Atlantic routes for US Airways, that was several years ago. Now, flying for JetBlue, I don't have to worry about the NATs. And, I don't go overseas very much in the KC-10, either (only when I have to).

All my travel now outside of the U.S. is with my family on holiday.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

[LanFranc]

One reference for you at:
http://www.nat-pco.org/nat/Supps/Suppamdt207.doc

oops. left out the page number. Scroll down to page 6

[KC-10 Driver]

LanFranc,

Thanks for the quick reply. Your reference

If operating without a received and acknowledged oceanic clearance, the pilot shall enter oceanic airspace at the first oceanic entry point, level and speed, as contained in the filed flight plan and proceed via the filed flight plan route to landfall. That first oceanic level and speed shall be maintained to landfall.

is exactly how I have been teaching it in my class.

Does anyone know about any exceptions to the above rule for westbound flights coasting out with Shanwick?

Or is my AA friend mistaken?

[411A]

Not necessarily the AA pilot is incorrect, maybe AA does it 'their way', ignoring properly recognised established published procedures.

Why would I not be surprised?:yuk:

[eastern wiseguy]

I have asked the question on your behalf on the ATC issues thread ....

[DFC]

UK AIC 52/2004 requires flights with a comms failure and no oceanic clearance to remain clear of oceanic airspace.

However, the UK AIP ENR 2-2-4-14 para 17.3 simply "strongly recomends" that flights experiencing R/T failure prior to NAT entry remain clear.

That same section of the UK AIP gives advice on what to do if the pilot decides to ignore the recomended procedure and press on.

Regards,

DFC

[KC-10 Driver]

Thanks for all the info guys -- this is really good stuff. Does anyone have any links to an online version of:

UK AIC 52/2004

or

UK AIP ENR 2-2-4-14?

Also, can anyone offer guidance as to how one would reconcile the apparent contradiction between the NAT supplementary procedures and the guidance provided in the UK AIC and AIP quoted above?

Thanks again.

[CarbHeatIn]

What about if the Oceanic entry point is in Irish airspace as opposed to UK?

[TopBunk]

From my company Route Information Manual:

Westbound, if the oceanic clearance has not been received prior to reaching the Shanwick OCA boundary, they must contact domestic ATC and request instructions to enable them to remain of Oceanic airspace whilst awaiting such clearance.

carbheat

Shanwick = Shannon and Prestwick. There is no separate Scottish and Irish Oceanic sectors.

[TheOddOne]

KC-10 driver:

In order to access the UK-AIP and also Aeronautical Information Circulars (AIC) go to:

www.ais.org.uk

You'll have to register as a user but that's just a formality. It's all free at the point of use, for documents that used to cost hundreds of $$$ a year in paper form - excellent!

Cheers,
The Odd One

[Bumz_Rush]

In Savannah FSI, teach the keep on trucking system....

When asked, I also said remain clear.....but they are teaching continue....the logic being that ATC know your published intentions, but not your unpublished......

Perhaps someone at FSI might respond.....

Bumz

[CarbHeatIn]

Thanks Topbunk, I'm well aware of what Shanwick is, however Uk-AIP etc has no jurisdiction in Irish airspace so I'm wondering whether the Irish authorities also "strongly recommend holding short of Oceanic airspace" in the event of comms failure.

[KC-10 Driver]

Great thoughts, guys, regarding whether or not UK has any jurisdiction upon entering Shanwick airspace. However, isn't the boundary between the SOTA and Shanwick OCA many hundreds of miles from the west coast of Ireland.

Thus, since it is outside of the 12 mile limit of sovereign airspace, technically, neither the UK nor Ireland have legal jurisdiction over that airspace. Am I not correct?

By international agreement, Shanwick has operational control of the airspace. And, Shanwick is actually based in the UK (the controllers, at least, are in Prestwick, Scotland with the radio operators in Shannon, Ireland). So, perhaps this is why the UK may have jurisdiction in Shanwick OCA?

Am I anywhere near close on this?

[None]

From my Jeppesen Airway Manual Chapter 9 (Emergency) Ireland page 2 communications failure (also located on the Jeppesen Atlantic Orientation Charts 1/2 panel 11):

"...Communications Failure prior to Entering NAT Oceanic Airspace.

Due to the length of time in oceanic airspace, it is strictly recommended that a pilot experiencing communications failure whilst still in Shannon FIR/UIR/SOTA does not enter the Shanwick Oceanic Control Area but adopts the procedure specified at para a) below.

However, if the pilot elects to continue then, to facilitate the provision of adequate separation, adopt either the procedure at para b) or c) below...."

At my last continuing qualifiacation training, the instructor was asked to clarify what we were to do. He said the company way is to comply with this recommendation from Shanwick (do not enter Shanwick). However, he acknowledged that it is the Captain's decision.

As far as inability to get a clearance when comm is operational, I have not seen that to be a problem, either with ACARS or voice.

[BlueEagle]

Just a thought. If you do have a total comms failure, VHF/HF/ACARS, before setting out across the Atlantic do you really want to continue? If you can't raise anybody, anywhere on any box then there is a strong chance that you have something much more serious to cope with than a failed comms system, or will have in the near future!

I appreciate this is a diversion from the theoretically correct procedure to the practical but I just wonder what others would want to do?:uhoh: