achieve cruise level by....

[gurnzee]

im a pilot operating from a uk airport. one of the requirements of the SIDs is to achieve cruise level by the waypoint at the end of thge SID. sometimes performance is a bit limiting and this can be difficult to achieve although london usually has no wories accepting us in the climb. my q is if atc gives us heading to steer for a while after departure for whatever reason and we dont follow the sid initially and are then told to route direct to *****,does the achieve cruise level by ***** still apply

[Asda]

The answer has to be yes, you must achieve the level. There is ALWAYS a reason for a target level. There is a particularly difficult level that a/c have to reach on SIDs out of EGCC routing via CPT, MID and BIG. Again there is always a reason why they have to be reached. In the above case it's because if a/c don't achieve this level they will enter the airspace of another ATC sector that isn't expecting the flight and is using the FL 1000 below the target level. That's just one reason and there are many others all important. If for any reason you can't make the level then let us know asap. That way we can agree 'plan B' with whoever it is we need to speak to. As ever, if in doubt, ask.

[javelin]

If you are an A320/321 coming out of MAN going south, the 290 - 50 before MID is usually going to be a struggle unless you are only going to Spain, espescially if MAN have said no speed and you have accelerated. I always say we can't make it rather than struggle to make it and then have a level acceleration before climbing further. Similar problem out of NCL. The people who come up with these restrictions should have a fam flight or two and get to understand what we can and cannot do.

[cossack]

javelin
When you're told "no ATC speed restriction" you don't have to accelerate.
If you know that high speed climb performance means you may not make the profile, why not climb as quick as you can without accelerating and have more chance of making it?
It will certainly help out later on.
There will be times when you will have been levelled off for traffic and will then struggle, but thats life!

[chiglet]

javelin
Perhaps you could "persuade" your company [so called] flight panning dept to file a "realistic" profile.
Working in MAN flight plans, we have totally cr@p profiles....
EGCCN420F350 HON/N429F330 A1 KIDLI/N0450F390 N899 SITET/N0430F330 ......LEP?
On "airline" filed HON CPT SAM GUR semi-circular. Computers rule,,,,KO?
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy


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chiglet

[eyeinthesky]

Gurnzee: Your pen name gives away the area you are talking about! The problem you might have if you go through ORTAC still climbing is that there may well be traffic the other way which is not yet talking to Jersey Zone which suddenly becomes a problem. If you are struggling to make the level by ORTAC, why not file a lower one and negotiate climb with London later.

I cannot stress enough the importance of making level-by restrictions. The comment has already been made that perhaps the person who makes the restrictions should come onto a jumpseat. Have you been to LATCC recently? The level-by restrictions are for one of two reasons (or both):

1) To provide separation from other traffic which may or may not be in communication with the guy you are talking to;

2) To keep you out of the airspace of somebody who is not expecting you.

The first one should concentrate your mind somewhat. Two examples:

FL140 level xx DME OCK when coming from the West. Traffic inbound to KK will cross your track from L-R at FL150 very shortly after the DME given. Go high through there and you will have a TCAS display which lights up like a Christmas tree.

FL310 level Sprat on UM604. Traffic climbing out of the TMA to REDFA crosses your nose some 15 miles past Sprat, working another controller. He/she is basing the clearance to that traffic upon you being level. If you are not, chances are you will get a close look at a 747.

With today's FMS equipment there is in my opinion no excuse for not making level-by restrictions. If you are fool enough to leave it until the last minute and need barber's pole descent with closed throttles and you find the forecast winds are not the same as the actuals, then you are painting yourself into a corner. Do you do that in all your flying?

The departure scenario given by javelin displays a singular lack of common sense. As has been said, no speed restriction does not absolve you from your responsibility to make SID or any other level restrictions. If accelerating to 300 kts means you can't be level by wherever, but keeping the speed back does, the answer's obvious.

By all means come and see us at LATCC and see what the problems are. Fam Flights: yes please. Can you make them easier to get on so we're not treated like lepers by check-in or dispatchers?



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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[Asda]

Javelin,

Sorry to mention it but that target level is now an even more unachievable FL310 MID -50. Good Luck with that one.

[javelin]

I'd better keep the APU running, it might help ! The acceleration bit is accepted Cossack and I normally remember but the main problem appears to be a combination of poor climb performance and increasing tailwinds as you climb. The 310 will just be totally unnatainable.

[gurnzee]

asda and javelin, very valid comments and well explained, thankyou, now i have some ammunition for other co. pilots!
eyeinthesky, i was quite pleased when i started to read your post, but then for #### sake, whats the deal with the fms blah blah blah barbers pole descent! Clearly we are all going on about climbing to a level, and obviously not being a pilot yourself a fms does not help you climb at a better rate. how about if we're heavy, its hot and the anti icing is on?
but thanks for clearing it up

[gurnzee]

hell ive just spent an age typing a reply and the bloody thing didnt work. to all who have made sensible comments thanks for making the issue clear. to eyeinthesky, you are all screwed up as fms doesnt help you climb, and we're not talking about descending to a level. if one is heavy, its hot and anti-ice systems are on it can be a mission to make ortac by the allocated level.
i hope you switch your brain on next time you control my a/c

[gul dukat]

eyeinthe sky makes a very valid point .I am unable to recall the last time I saw anyone visit this unit for a fam! (except the occassional military guy or newbie ppl ..and VERY WELCOME THEY ARE TOO!).The last time I went on a fam flight the staff at the checkin seemed puzzled as to why I was there and insisted that the aircraft was full ...no amount of explaining that I was supposed to be up front made any sense to the lady concerned .Maybe it is me but they just don't seem to make the connection with air traffic control and their aeroplanes sometimes ! Maybe things will improve if TAG do get to run us and we get "proper" ticketing arrangements!!
Having said that I think Fam visits for ALL concerned are an excellent idea and should be made compulsory ...with proper days in lieu and funding !!

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"earth is full ....go home "

[This message has been edited by gul dukat (edited 19 June 2001).]

[eyeinthesky]

Gurnzee:

Well thank you for the slagging off (twice).

Firstly, I am a CPL/IR in current flying practice as well as an ATCO, so perhaps you should check the profiles.

I suggest you turn your own brain on and re-read my post. I moved on from trying to offer constructive help on your problem of achieving a level by Ortac to a more general comment on the importance of making level-by restrictions. As you may know, these apply in the descent as well as in the climb, but I see far more narrow-minded, non-spatially aware people such as yourself failing to make descent restrictions than I do climbing ones. In my obvious vast ignorance I would have thought that gravity assisting would make it easier than the other way around, but it appears not to be so. You of course decided you knew better (twice) and decided to alienate the person who might have let you come through Ortac lower than your ideal cruise level and then negotiate a higher level. (I might control the Hurn sector, for all you know).

My point was, and you have reinforced it, that there is a need for a better understanding of the concerns on both sides of your personal Berlin Wall. We ATCOs need to be aware of just the limitations you guys have on the operation of your aircraft, and you need to be aware that you are only one of almost 2 million aluminium tubes that pass through UK airspace every year, and we can't please all of you all of the time.

I'm glad someone else has had the same experience of Fam flights as me. If you come to LATCC you won't get the same treatment. :)

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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[This message has been edited by eyeinthesky (edited 20 June 2001).]

[SkyCruiser]

eyeinthesky,


CHILL OUT PAL.
I bet you don,t fly many SIDs and STARs out of Elstree, not unless you call flying around the M25 a SID.

Lets all chill, its a nice day.

[BEXIL160]

SkyCruiser.....

My ATC colleague hardly needs defending but in the interests of fairness..

He does have an IR, not something you gain (or keep current) flying around the M25. He also has a CPL, certainly one up from my own PPL (daylight VFR use only).

A number of ATCOs hold current, rated, flying licences. How many pilots hold current, validated, ATC licences?

There is a serious point here. ATCO's do their utmost to help aircrews, mentally putting yourself in the pilot seat when issuing ATC instructions being just ONE of the many techniques we employ. Being in current Flying practice can only help, or would you prefer somebody on the ATC end who had NO aviation experience/interest???

The point has already been made on this thread. We are all in this business together, ATC and Aircrew. ATCO's do actually take Fam flights (even if the procedures for doing so are difficult). Pilots very rarely visit ATCUs, be they ACCs or Airfields. Who has the greater appreciation of the others task??

This isn't an Us vs Them reply, just a plea to be a bit more understanding of the other guy.

Rgds
BEX

[eyeinthesky]

Bex: Thanks for your support. I have no wish to turn this thread into an Us v Them tirade, either, but was amazed that my attempt to offer constructive help was met with such abuse. The pity is that there are sadly less ATCOs with the kind of outlook that you and I have than those who display the kind of prejudice displayed in this thread by some of our pilot colleagues. I always try to ensure that when traffic allows I reduce restrictions as much as possible to allow pilots to operate their aircraft closer to what I am led to believe are their ideal profiles. This actually gets me a hard ride at work from those who think we shouldn't bother. Perhaps we shouldn't.

The reference the M25 puzzles me. I keep my IR current by regularly hand-flying light twins in the airways in icing with no autopilot. (Remember what that was like when you did your IR, Sky Cruiser? I bet you thought it was the hardest thing you had done to date). I suggest that is a bit more challenging than an FMS-assisted, two-pilot operation which some other contributors to this forum obviously enjoy.

However, I do not wish to make comparisons as to the difficulties of each other's jobs, simply to try to offer some explanation of the problems we face to increase mutual understanding.

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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[bakerloo]

Many thanks to the controllers who reply to these post.
Quite often if I have a question about atc, clearances, rules and regulations,! generally somebody has thought about it first and it is both interesting and informative to read the reply`s that controllers send in.

If pilots decide to start a slanging match or won`t listen to reasonable comment, it spoils it for everyone.

Good luck all

[Asda]

Yeh...

Guys chill out

[SkyCruiser]

Eyeinthesky,

I have read your post and I agree with your comments and i hope it does not turn into a slagging match.

BEXIL,
You say you do not what it to turn into an us versus them post, but when you write things like "I wonder how many pilots have a valid ATCO licence" it tends to lead towards a rather stupid reply. Most ATCO's fly due to the fact that during their training they have been given a number of hours towards their PPL, and therefore some go on and complete it as they enjoy it as a hobby and past time. Not as a way of seeing it from the other side.
Just out of interest I possibly wonder how many pilots on their day off would say "It's a nice day I think i'll go down to the local airport and do a couple of hours of air trafficing".
LET'S GET REAL.

Also regarding air traffic liason visits and fam flights, the National Air Traffic Services has a system which allows you to take fam flights with certain airlines. Most airlines do not operate any procedures to visit air traffic units. Although a number of pilots, including myself, have used our initiative and where possible we have visited our local air traffic establishments.

Again I hope this does not turn into a slagging match, so I hope you do not write anymore comments trying to compare the two proffesions. They are not welcomed.

[BEXIL160]

Skycruiser...Okay, okay truce. .. Let me buy you a pint...

You're right though, NATS does have Fam flt scheme. Did you know that we have to take them on OUR days off, no time in lieu and minimal expenses, and ,as others have pointed out, reception by the airline ground staff is often derisory. (ICELANDAIR however were brilliant, check-in thru to cockpit)

'nuff said. Bitter or Lager?

Rgds
BEX

[SkyCruiser]

BEXIL,

I would love a pint of bitter, fair play to you.

My round next!

[freddy]

I too have operated frequently out of GCI with the climb restriction and with full loads/tailwinds/146's/icing conditions it can be difficult if not impossible to meet. On these occasions a timely call to ATC to advise them invariably meets with a helpful response and clearance to climb through Ortac. Alternatively one can request a lower level before take-off.

It certainly seems to be the held wisdom amongst pilots I've flown with that, for example, on the Merue Star into CDG once you are given a radar heading the descent points no longer apply as you are no longer flying that approach.

Gurnzees initial question is a valid one, but unfortunately subsequent posts deteriorated somewhat (Ammunition for co-pilots?...Obviously not just pilots vs ATC but P2 vs P1 as well? What happened to working together?)

Personally I enjoy having our ATC friends on the F/D - can't do much about the check-in difficulties, but you are welcome on the F/D any time.


[This message has been edited by freddy (edited 28 June 2001).]

[gurnzee]

at last someone sensible! Im relieved the point has been cleared up and also to see that there are other guys out there who had the same thing on their minds.
As far as jump seat rides are concerned, i dont think we have a policy but as long as there is ticket in hand, anyone with an aviation interest is welcome in my book

[Flybywyre]

Hello SC...hope you are well.

Mines a pint of MaryAnne http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif

Cheers


[This message has been edited by Flybywyre (edited 29 June 2001).]

[250 kts]

Thanks for the offer Gurnzee. Pity my request to go up front recently on an A321, British registered, so decide whose for yourself.
It was my 1st time on the type, but the hostie was most apologetic even before she asked the FD, as she knew the answer even then!!