How much is "Expedite"?

[Carnage Matey!]

Whilst blasting skywards the other day at 4000fpm I was asked to expedite climb! Does the guy looking at the radar screen have any readout of our vertical speed, and if so what sort of climb rate would constitute an expedited climb in this situation (other than a higher RoC than the present)? Just curious as we can do 6000fpm and I wondered if thats what he wanted.

[need to know]

I imagine what he means is to increase your rate of climb.He will not have a ROC readout but he will be able to see the numbers rolling. On occasion you may be asked to give max rate of climb till, which probably requires no explanation.

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And that's what I think about that.

[need to know]

Ref above: I use he as a generic term.No offence intended to either sex..

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And that's what I think about that.

[captlcc]

A few years ago there was a (tongue in cheek) definition of "expedite climb" which was - "if you don't go ballistic in the next 10 seconds, you're dead!"

[U R NumberOne]

Although we only get the height readout on the Mode C and not the rate of climb, at 4000fpm the numbers would be rattling up at a fair old rate anyway - don't know what was going on around you to be asked for increase over that!

[Spotter]

The request would almost certainly have been to ensure separation from other traffic without having to stop your climb at an intermediate level. It was not necessarily a request to increase your rate of climb, but without asking you to expedite the controller would have no way of knowing that your present rate of climb would continue. That's my opinion anyway.

[RTB RFN]

I believe what is usually desired by ATC is a max angle of climb not the max rate. It's usually a problem regarding height by distance rather than height by time however I believe the generic ATC is not familiar with the difference. The other aspect which is important is the fact that the difference between max rate and max angle with a number of aircraft is negligible in terms of IAS/MNo.; with others it is significant.

[Adamastor]

Carnage,

Don't know what you were flying, but maybe they just wanted to see what it could do?!? :)

"Climb like your life depends on it......because it does!"

[This message has been edited by Adamastor (edited 17 May 2000).]

[Reimers]

I have visited Frankfurt ACC in January when they presented their great new ATC System to the pilot community. They have a feature that shows the average rate of climb during the last 10 seconds or so, so they are quite informed.
Also, a good controller knows the rates certain types can do, and only when you are unusually agile or hampered by extraordinary conditions he asks for something you cannot do.

[surface wind]

I agree with spotter. The controller probably wanted you to continue your climb until you where vertically seperated from the other a/c. Classic example of an airmiss occured like this at Bovingdon. The TMA controller saw that the Shuttle was climbing at a good rate so didn't bother to say expedite. His next comment was 'No atc speed'. The shuttle increased speed, reduced roc and had an airmiss with an a/c in the stack.

[APP Radar]

"expedite climb" or "expedite descend" are often used to ensure a good (controllers point of view) rate of climb/descend and not to have it increased.
Expedite climb may soun like increase rate of climb but often means continue climb as you're now.
On radar screens the ATCo can read the Mode C and the update depends on the system and on the antenna speed (rpm). Some systems also show the average rate of climb/descend.
Speaking for myself, I often use the terms "expedite climb" with "until FL..." to let the pilot know about my need to have vertical separation at a specific altitude.

[Crosby]

Often comes up in conversations on the flight deck this subject. What are ATC really asking for? Basically the controller wants you to pass through FL's as quickly as poss. Why? because he is relying on vertical separation in your case , rather than or as well as horizontal separation. Forget how well you can climb over a set distance. that is not what he wants. just get going up or down as the case maybe. Often it is only used if he wants to make sure his plan will work. But if you don't help out you may find the next call is AVOIDING ACTION. If you don't think you can do any better , do let him know. He may have another plan! Good Luck.!!!

[Euroc5175]

Some ACCs in Europe provide the actual Rate of Climb / Descent in the Track Data Blocks. This info is derived from a Mode C tracker.
When Mode C tracker is used, the method of establishing vertical separation differs from that used in the UK. I always used to specify a Rate of Climb or Descent to aircraft (based upon acquired knowledge of aircraft performance) to ensure that I had vertical separation prior to losing horizontal separation. If an aircraft is told to expedite, the controller cannot be sure of the actual rate of climb or descent, whereas if an actual rate is specified, eg. "2500fpm minimum until passing FL310" the situation is more controlled.

[identnospeed]

Totally agree with Spotter.

Several times I've seen a/c go up at 4000fpm climbing to 6000ft and on that basis clear them higher (say, FL130) in the anticipation that they will continue at something close to that ROC. In the process of sorting something else out I look back to I see it doing 2000 fpm !

IMHO, the angle of climb is what most ATCOs are looking for when they say expedite.

INS

[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 20 May 2000).]

[karrank]

"Expedite climb" here I have noted to mean that something has a good chance of going pear-shaped but the controller can't, or won't, think of something creative to fix it.

In our hated ATC college, in the simulator, if a trainee says "expedite" the instructor calls up the "aeroplane" and tells him to reduce the roc to teach lazy trainee a lesson.

You hear expedite, worry.

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"Cut him off and call him shorty!" - Lorenna Bobbit (Patron Saint of ATC)
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[need to know]

karrank.. What a very positive post. Could it be that by expediting climb for a period it will avoid an aircraft leveling off at an intermediatery level???It may also help an aircraft reaching it's optimum level quicker without the requirement for delaying vectors.It may show that the controller has an understanding of the type of aircraft involved and performance of same...NO NO your probably right,it's just being lazy...

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And that's what I think about that.

[identnospeed]

karrank,

running up to 60 a/c per hour thru a 30mile by 40 mile sector which goes from FL55 to FL175 (ie. not very big) with every single a/c requiring either descent or climb occasionally requires the use of the word expedite just to keep levels free..........Things can rapidly grind to a halt. Leaving things to waffle up or down results, ultimately in poor service provision, something we in NATS are going to hear more about post-privatisation.

Creativity is fine if you actually have the time or airspace to ponder.

But if when the "E" word is used it gets 2 of the 12 a/c off the frequency, rest assured it is NOT as a result of laziness !!

INS

[OrsonCart]

On the ground expedite means power on and 30 knots +!

[karrank]

WEEEEEELLLLLL! Maybe, but I work a larger relatively low traffic density group of sectors where you see all the bangs well in advance and "do" something early. If our guys say "expedite" it means they didn't spot something 10 minutes ago when they should have and no longer have room for a requirement and maybe a vector might no longer do the job.

I would prefer to say "reach F350 by 20 miles Gripdicken" for the same effect, if the aeroplane can't do it that day you find out straight away (mostly.)

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"Cut him off and call him shorty!" - Lorenna Bobbit (Patron Saint of ATC)
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[RTB RFN]

I think most of these posts prove my previous comments. I agree with the fact that if you hear the word expedite it usually means that options have become limited and therefore I would advocate that the use of this word should be limited to where performance (of some nature) needs to be enhanced in the interest of everybody having a great "rest of the day". This is similar to the phrase "break right/left" where, to a military trained pilot, you pull blackout G's and heave a 60 degree bank asap. Therefore I cringe when I hear hot-shots using this sort of phrase as a matter of course. YOOOOOOO IDIOT.


Be still my heart - it's only love...no wait it's flight!

[need to know]

RTB RFN... "USUALLY BECOME LIMITED". What inspiring words.Do you really beleive this or is this the way YOU operate A.T.C. An aircraft can be asked to expedite line-up, expedite departure, expedite taxi.Pilots I know would,if aircraft loads allow, rather expedite a climb for a specific portion of flight to allow them reach their optimum level.I feel for a so called Air Traffic Controller in an A.T.C forum, you do your profession no good

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And that's what I think about that.

[RTB RFN]

Need To know

composure please, calm, calm. Soothing breezes, soft blue oceans.

"expedite backtrack", "expedite climb", "expedite clearance of the runway",
"expedite turn". Yep if it doesn't happen it usually means the options become limited.

Nah, never operated on the wish and a prayer method, never done the dog's watching TV thingy. Never had a biggy.

But please - feel free yourself.

27 years of fixing them, flying them, searching for them, controlling them and investigating them - hey I think I can arrogantly say I've got a bit of a handle on things.


Female dog.

[need to know]

RTB RFN...... Ah yes blue oceans,,calm calm, soothing breezes:but what part of you do these breezes eminate???

But leaving that aside, an expert like yourself can see that if expedite is a last resort then so are large vectors or level changes. It is just another facet of the great profession of A.T.C. The boys and girls,like yourself, are the last resort and while you see expedite as a last resort in an en-route situation(if i understand correctly),it may be a useful tool in a TMA or in an aerodrome control situation.It's just another tool of the trade.....

[This message has been edited by need to know (edited 25 May 2000).]

[RTB RFN]

NEED TO KNOW

Interesting having this chat/repartee with you.

Yes I've controlled TMA, procedural and radar; I've done the en-route and arrivals, procedural and radar and always it's always been without traffic management procedures to help. I agree that expedite is a most useful tool and I believe you have misunderstood me. I'm saying that if it is over-used it will lose it's effectiveness. I am a strong advocate of having as many of and using as many tools as possible.

Nice to meet you, you drop your mud then I promise I'll drop mine.



[This message has been edited by RTB RFN (edited 25 May 2000).]

[RTB RFN]

Kinsafe - Sorry - never been limited by that sort of stuff

[RogerOut]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif(sticking toe in water for first time)
Dont know about Oz but in UK our MATS states
"expedite climb/descent = to require a pilot
to climb/descend at best rate".
I suppose their may be a case for stating rate required for everyday use, and keeping
expedite for emergencies, but personally for
reasons of time I use expedite if I want/need
an a/c up/down quicker than it is happening.
Or not as the case may be http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

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RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden

[need to know]

RTB RFN

I obviously totally mis-understood.I thought from your earlier posts you were saying that expedite was a sign of things gone wrong or a lack of creativity to resolve a situation.Now I know you see it's use as another tool in the great tool box that is Air Traffic Control.I too have enjoyed the friendly banter and my mud now floats away on the calm blue ocean..


Maybe we'll meet again soon on the soapbox in the sky.

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And that's what I think about that.

[abdigin]

Just to say that "expedite" means nothing, how many ATCOs got tricked with these magic words?
How many pilots know what is in MATS, UK pilots might, what about others?
One may think that using expedite did work, in fact in may have worked without intervention as well.
It is reassuring for the controller butbluddy tricky for all involved!

[Hotel Tango]

At the Maastricht UAC we can also see the average rate of climb/descent. The general tendency is to request you maintain your present rate (as we see it on radar) or more often we specify a rate. I interpret using "expedite" with a climb or descend clearance as meaning your MAXIMUM permissible rate. But I don't know what that is anyway so it doesn't help me. "Expedite vacating the runway", on the other hand, tells you not to **** about sightseeing because the spacing's gone to cock and there's another bloke right up your **** !

[squeaker]

The term "expedite climb" is not that useful to anyone. "Expedite through FLxxx" has a lot more meaning.
Current ROC is not that useful for planning purposes either. The a/c may be about to accelerate,de-rate power, or change from IAS to MNo climb.
Short answer: tell us what you want, and we'll do our best to give it to you, or (hopefully) tell you if we can't. After all, its in our interest too!

[surface wind]

Karrank,

Where do you work, do you get payed an atco 2 salary, if so send me the details so that I too can work on a low density sector and get 10 mins to solve a problem.

Perhaps some time in a TMA is needed??

[ATC delays?]

It looks like there is no official definitions for expedite, but it is often used meaning `give me a hand on this`. It effectively leaves control to the aircrew.
When it does not involve separation its use seems perfectly normal.
Now, those who are happy to use it to achieve separation should think about the consequences. If you tell a pilot to expedite climb, one day he will give you 4000ft/min and the next one maybe 800ft/min. In both cases the pilot is expediting. Now if things go wrong, will the investigation bring up the use of non-standard, ambiguous instructions as a cause of an air-miss?
Anyhow, my suggestion is that crews indicate the exact terms of their expedition. For example:
ATC:"ABC123, expedite descent"
Crew:"ABC123, roger descending with 4000 ft/min"

[Adamastor]

I find the use of the word 'expedite' perfectly acceptable in any context, but as with a lot of other ATCO's will generally try and specify a level to go with it. I find that a lot of this game is about keeping the other guy in the know, even if time is a bit short and hence the notification is somewhat vague - we're on the same team you see, and information is gold.

Having said that, it is never a last resort (i.e. expedite climb or I'm about to have an incident). As every ATCO knows, it's always nice to have another plan when this one goes to s**t, but if 'expedite' is going to stop me giving you a 'maintain' or an unnecessary vector, then I'll continue to use it!

The points about it being more a TWR/TMA thing rather than Enroute are perfectly true (I'd be a bit concerned if I heard it as frequently on Enroute frequencies), but I hasten to add that that's not because the control is any 'easier' - just a shift to a different working style.

[375ml]

Expidite is a good tactical tool. Best used prior to "traffic is" :)

"Expidite through xxx for separation" doesn't necesarily mean ATCO has used tool of last resort, but is an extremely efficient means to communicate the requirement needed, particularly in a busy TMA with high ATCO and pilot workload.

In my workplace expidite is used frequently where the controller's intention is to facilitate shorter track miles. This isn't usually communicated to the aircraft. I prefer "[expidite ... and] expect direct xxxxx leaving xxx"

[dessert-rat]

Everyone has his or her opinion on this and that, so here is mine.

The WORD "expedite" means to hurry or to proceed without any undue delay.

I think that the term should be used in context.

I believe that on most occasions, the purpose of an expedite request is to establish a vertical separation before the lateral separation is depleted. I use it often, but always leave enough (lateral or vertical) space to stop the climb/decent if it is not going to work.

Having said all that, there is one thing I have learnt in my ATC career, never say that this or that procedure should NEVER be used, it may just be that ONE procedure that will pull your butt out of the fire and keep an aircraft in the sky.

[atc_ring]

...I'd agree with "sqweeker" above, that: .."The term "expedite climb" is not that useful to anyone. "Expedite through FLxxx" has a lot more meaning."...
Moreover, after 20+ years in ACC I've found that "Expedite to vacate/cross FLxxx in xminutes or less..." can also help and be easily understood by your average customer...
All in all, Expedite is a tool that should be used very carefuly and sparingly...

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...time danaos et dona ferentes

[This message has been edited by atc_ring (edited 06 July 2000).]

[Windows2000]

In my experience "expedite" =

on ground - get clear of the active 'cause you're about to have company. Go as fast as you can without getting airborne or hurting the aircraft.

in the air - you are in conflict with an aircraft that is converging or, more probably, opposite direction. The controller's anxiety level is slightly elevated as this situation requires an attention level outside his normal comfort zone.

It does not mean an error in judgement has been made, but that "finer" judgement is in use. Nike - JUST DO IT!

[identnospeed]

agree

[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 11 July 2000).]

[identnospeed]

Tcas climb,

Most, if not all, radar controllers are taught not to use "reduce speed/exped. descent" simultaneously.

Usually what happens is that a controller asks you to pull the speed (maybe for sequencing/spacing), then realises that a good rate of descent is needed to free up levels maybe for a/c descending on top.

My personal choice, if I have already asked you to pull the speed and then I require a good rate of descent is to say "expedite descent, no speed till level" or similar.

If a level restriction needs to be adhered to, I usually give the restriction first and then ask for the slowest speed that will keep you clean and allow for the restriction to be met. This happens most often when there is a delay at the stack.

I think it is bad technique to ask for speed reduction and good ROD and it only shows the controllers ignorance of a/c performance !!

INS