Raf"s Jolly To Alps Is Snow Joke [Archive]

Richae

11th Jan 2005, 14:01

This is a disgrace. You would have thought in this day and age you could waste more than £250k on a trip :ok:

News

RAF"S JOLLY TO ALPS IS SNOW JOKE

EXCLUSIVE by GARY JONES
228 words
11 January 2005
Mirror
11
English
(c) 2005 Mirror Group Ltd

THE RAF spent £250,000 of taxpayers" money on a 23-day training exercise in Switzerland so pilots could fly in the right type of snow.

But the pre-Christmas trip caused a storm at the Ministry of Defence when aircrews described it as the trip of a lifetime. It emerged the 40- strong group of men and women would finish flying early so they could go skiing, sightseeing and to nightclubs.

No33 squadron, based at RAF Benson, Oxon, also enjoyed five-star hospitality at the Swiss air base at Sion near the holiday resort of Montreux and were paid more for being overseas.

A senior Ministry of Defence source said: "Diversions were found. The Swiss were great hosts."

RAF chief Sir Jock Stirrup learned of the "jolly" when the Puma helicopter squads boasted about it to colleagues and pictures of the trip appeared in the service"s paper the RAF News.

The source added: "Sir Jock is furious. The excuse about the type of snow didn"t go down well.

"The RAF has been hit with nearly 10,000 job cuts so hearing about an expensive fun break in Switzerland didn"t help at all."

A RAF spokesman said: "This training needs altitudes above 5,000ft and can"t be done in the UK."

Document DMIRR00020050111e11b0002v

Daily Mirror

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 14:03

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

Hang your heads in shame

airborne_artist

11th Jan 2005, 14:15

I hated every minute of a two week trip to Florida in the summer of 19XX - the worst bits were the evenings, being surrounded by fit girls queuing up to meet these even fitter Brit guys with their nice accents ....

Spotting Bad Guys

11th Jan 2005, 14:37

This is getting a little hysterical.....so let's dispel a few myths. Have you ever stayed on an air base where you were given "5-star hospitality"? Well looked after - as befits an exchange of this sort - but "5-star?" Not many have, I would suggest
Yes, they were paid more for being overseas - it's called LSSA, and most of the boys and girls on the Sqn will have spent a large porportion of recent yeras overseas on one cr@ppy det or another. If they were acommodated in hotels, yes, there is subsistence allowance etc, but you can bet that this would be one of the few dets of this year where this would apply.

And do you really think that OC 33 can merrily take his Sqn on an exercise in another nation without permission from the highly-paid help?

The FJ boys get (increasingly rarely, I know) Red Flag, Maple Flag and so on to train in appropriate conditions against a simlulated threat - why the hysteria because 33 Sqn got to Switzerland to train at high altitude? (probably as part of a multi-national effort?)

I'm rather disgusted at you, Mike, for replying in such a fashion to such an obviously sensationalist report without apparent regard to the background or circumstances.

SBG

BootFlap

11th Jan 2005, 14:46

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

Mikehegland - You really do seem to shoot from the hip!

It emerged the 40- strong group of men and women would finish flying early so they could go skiing, sightseeing and to nightclubs.

Flying programme complete = free time.

Ski-ing = Adventurous training and physical fitness.

Sightseeing = Personal development.

Nightclubbing = that or sit in a barrack block on a Swiss base and read the Aircrew / Technical manual.

I would hazard a guess that their swiss hosts organised most events, and lets face it, the whole det would have to be authorised and funded by Group, not the Sqn itself. At best the boys and girls would have had their ski passes subsidised (as is only right and fair as it is recognised in the Services that physical fitness is part of the basic military skill-set). The "tax-payer" would certainly not have funded the visits to any nightclubs.

Hang our heads in shame? Not a chance, hold our heads up high for using yet another detachment to actually introduce some element of fun back into service life. Well done 33 Sqn, bet you it was a lot nicer than Bosnia / Iraq / Afghanistan / insert country of your choice here!

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 14:53

£250,000 for 40 people for 23 days........ Absolutely outrageous. What on earth were you doing? It appears that you were staying in the 5 star barracks reading the ACM when you should have been nightclubbing.

Seriously though, surely the cost of the detacjhment would be more than that.... they must have the figures wrong. If not then it was cheap as chips.

Sir Jock is furious he didn't get an invite.
Try harder chaps.

as for 5-star barracks. Try the Noggy Naval barracks at Bergen - First class.

allan907

11th Jan 2005, 14:57

Perhaps I may have been the only one to read Mikehegland's post as the ironic and humourous post it was presumably meant to be?

stillin1

11th Jan 2005, 14:57

Hurrumph!
Bounders one and all -

God forbid any one combining a detachment and a bit of fun in this day and age!. If the flying is to be meaningful training one should be living in overcrowded tents on a noisy airfield in appauling conditions with the prospect of a decent bit of "incoming". The very thought of being resonably comfortable, well fed, rested and therefore receptive to learning a bit / improving ones skills is discraceful.

Don't even get me going on them being allowed out of the tent in the afternoons to actually enjoy life once in a while. They'll be allowing marriage before the second tour and "singlies" to live outide the Mess next :yuk:

BootFlap

11th Jan 2005, 15:02

:ok:

Mike, Allan,

fair enough, I bit didn't I? Obviously overworked, need to go on detachment and have a rest............. retreating back below the parapet now.

An Teallach

11th Jan 2005, 15:16

As a former scribbly I share Mike's outrage and disgust at this profligacy with the taxpayer's money.

For £250K one could have funded Investors in Paperwork for maybe even 2 weeks, or, or paid the MOD's 'Consultants' bill for 1/2 a day, or, or paid the compensation & legal bill for a whole day!

I dare say one could even have funded one day's worth of the BWoS "Fleece-Factor". Jeez! one could even have bought 250 super-duper swivel chairs!

M609

11th Jan 2005, 16:34

One could ask why they don't come here (BDF) and freze their @rse off with their collauges, after all Navy, RAF and I belive AAC have/ is going to have quite a few crews up here this winter. You know, like clockwork.....

Ahhh........but it's in the middle of nowhere! That's why!!!!! :} :} :}

(To be serious, not high enough mountains perhaps? )

Skeleton

11th Jan 2005, 17:17

For gawds sake no one tell em about Red Flag and Vegas!!

Door Slider

11th Jan 2005, 17:29

Legitimate flying training for a Sqn capable of short notice operational deployments worldwide, combined with personal development and not to mention benefits of working with the Swiss forces.
If you want to save wasted money from which this country gets nothing in return, withdraw from Brussels and sack European Commissioners!

Grimweasel

11th Jan 2005, 17:32

Hear Hear Slider!!

If you want to save the wasted millions DO NOT vote them stupid Labour to$$ers back in. Vote Blue and give Howard a chance and Letwin with his promises of tax cuts!!

heights good

11th Jan 2005, 17:53

I would love to have a face to face chat with this £%$£^* of a journalist. Its typical of irresponsible journalism that seems to be the norm these days. He obviously does not realise that 250k is NOTHING for a 23 day exercise. The skills learned on this det would be useful in the UK (snow, mountains, emergencies) Iraq (high density altitudes, emergencies) Afghanistan (High density altitude, mountains and kin big ones at that, emergencies) Kosovo/Bosnia ( snow, mountains, emergencies, high DA in summer) insert any country you like here. I would love to get these journalists up at night in the mountains and doing some snow landings then laugh when they find out adrenaline is brown. If any are reading this WE ARE NOT SUPERMEN JUST TRAIN HARD. The phrase train hard fight easy comes to mind.

Just out of curiosity i wonder where matey boy who works for the mirror stays when he is out and about round the country. Youth hostels with no food all night or 5 star hotel with more than the usual small amount we get to feed us for a day. Maybe we could put him up in the 5 star accomodation we stay in :)

Just an aside i know a lot of the guys who were on this det and they did get a LOT of benefit from it. A big proportion of the guys had not done any real mountain flying for years, if at all.

Canary Boy

11th Jan 2005, 17:54

On a serious note...

...the damage is now done in terms of the adverse publicity generated by that low-life rag and its 'reporters'. This cr@p will have been read and believed by a huge number of people. What can be done by way of repair?

Make a start - don't buy the trash. Good grief....:mad:

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 19:02

Why is it irresponsible journalism? If I paid UK taxes I'd want to know that my money was being well spent and correctly administered and not wasted on a made up jolly like this was. I really cannot believe that the Sqdn Boss thought he could get away with this. 20 Years ago maybe they could have but in today's finacial climate it is totally and utterly stupid to think you can get away with this.

If you want to send the Squadron skiing then do it legally and properly and not through some back door exercise established to squander the public purse. Please don't try and justify it by saying it was good for exercise or to increase levels of fitness...you can do that by going for a run around the block. Don't make excuses for them by saying it was team building....again, easy to organise in the UK for less than £250,000. Do they need to go to Switzerland to practice mountain flying...How many other squadrons / Units go to Switzerland to practice Mountain flying ?
They should be made to pay the money back. Shame on them.

Its no wonder the rest of the Armed Forces are short of Kit and equipment when this is going on.

Lee Jung

11th Jan 2005, 19:10

Why weren't the shortly to be saying, 'Do you want fries with that?' Squadron not using the JHC EETU, established in Northern Norway specifically for this purpose?

To claim this was anything but a jolly will only rile the press and public more.

But so what, look at the junkets our lords and masters go on and MOD duty travel rate is 25 p per mile. If you are an MP you get 65p per mile, a positive incentive to drive as much as possible.

Do the kipper fleet still do a round the world on the OCU? Is this still deemed necessary?

jimgriff

11th Jan 2005, 19:16

Read where it originated......MIRROR GROUP!!!

If it's in the paper, then it must all be true!!........NOT

Lighten up guys and gals. As a British taxpayer I dont resent these type of excercises. There should be more of them!!
As a British Taxpayer who paid for all my jollies in MOD aircraft overthe years...I did. And I bloody well enjoyed it...

Skeleton

11th Jan 2005, 19:16

The kipper fleet OCU take an aircraft and its crew to places that they will be expected to operate from once there course is complete, and no its not "round the world"

Sure they have a good time when there off, what do you want them to do? Sit in and read an aircrew manual?

But they work darn hard in the air... period.

Green Bottle 2

11th Jan 2005, 19:26

Firstly, I don't know why CAS is miffed as it would have not even come out of his budget - 33 Sqn work for JHC who get their budget from Land Command i.e. the Army!

Secondly if they took the opportunity to do some adventurous training then that sound like efficient use of time and resources. (I am not going into the justification for adventurous trg here.)

Thirdly where can you find real mountains in the UK that compare to those on the continent? Where can you guarantee the snow?

M609 I think you'll find that BDU is full for the winter trg period as far as JHC is concerned.

GB2

OKOC

11th Jan 2005, 19:33

Why are we seemingly always having to justify what we are doing in the name of training? Our 1st and 2nd RO's are not going to take the risk of letting us worker bees "enjoy" ourselves at the taxpayers expense if our training isn't "proper" training but heh if we do enjoy ourselves should we feel guilty?

Training Risky

11th Jan 2005, 19:53

I think Mikehegland is a journo looking for a reaction to get a story.

Or maybe he really is a pilot, just constantly throwing out lines for us to bite on...

Either way he comes across as an arrogant, ignorant civvie with the opinionated drivel he posts

forwardassist

11th Jan 2005, 20:00

I know you have to get the snow (available in loads of other places cheaper than switzerland), but isnt 250 grand a bit much, if it is an accurate figure?
Thats about 5 times a Naval Air Squadron's annual T & S budget ffs!!:{

Big Cat Handler

11th Jan 2005, 20:10

How much of that £250k would have been spent anyway? It works out at about 2 Puma flying hours per day for the period, at a reasonable guesstimate or £6k/hour, which sounds like a reasonable training rate to me. Accommodation provided by the Swiss, so free or at least cheap, fuel, engineering etc would have been paid for anyway, and they won't have been on LSSA as, IIRC, you need to do more than 30 days for that.

So what's actually happened is that 33 have used some of their annual allocation of training hours - which, yes, are expensive - to do quality training, and had fun in between. How can any sane person have a problem with that?

BCH

JessTheDog

11th Jan 2005, 20:21

I am disgusted!

They could have gone on that other alcohol fuelled jolly, the annual RAF Ski Championships, with a small personal contribution.....

Personally speaking, when I was overseas on Her Majesty's business, I took my own small tent with me. I would pitch it outside the hotel (normally only 4 star alas) and send all my unspent rates back to the Ministry of Defence with instructions to Mr Hoon to spend it as he saw fit, especially if it assisted in some way with our administration or gathering knowledge from first-class consultants!

Even better, the £250K could have been spent on air transport for our own Dear Leader and the First Family. Perhaps there is urgent business in the Caribbean that needs discussion?

Read where it originated......MIRROR GROUP!!!

Perhaps some reservists faked the whole thing to get some money out of the Mirror?!?!

Firstly, I don\'t know why CAS is miffed as it would have not even come out of his budget - 33 Sqn work for JHC who get their budget from Land Command i.e. the Army!

Is this the same CAS who (allegedly) said he no longer considers JHC assets part of the RAF?!?!

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 20:39

Thats about 5 times a Naval Air Squadron's annual T & S budget ffs!!

Exactly.....I really can't believe that they think they could get away with that and whats even worse is that some people on this thread think its perfectly normal to waste tax payers money.

JessTheDog

11th Jan 2005, 20:51

There is no way that £250K T&S would be incurred! My estimate is that the T&S maximum would have been around 10% of the total, around £25K. This is still a mere 50% of the T&S budget I ran in my last job! Still, it's at the end of the FY and if you don't spend it, you get less next year.

Also, this would have been authorised, by delegated authority, all the way up to the (ignomiously entitled) bottom-level budget holder - ie the CO. It probably featured in a budget plan submitted in late 03/04 - or at least the funds for some sort of exercise were authorised!

The whole MOD budget setup is b@lls in any case, and bears little resemblence to how funds are actually spent. Finally, I was not an adminner or budgeteer and never have been, except when it has raised its head as an associated or secondary duty.:\

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 21:25

Why are you insisting on defending this appalling waste of money.

Beeayeate

11th Jan 2005, 21:29

What's the fuss all about? Such dets have happened in the past. I'm sure the older, (wiser?) blokes reading this thread will recall with fondness "Luckies" in Oberamagau. And the long back garden. :hmm: :rolleyes:

heights good

11th Jan 2005, 21:31

mikehegland, im going to lay the gauntlet down, you obviously dont know the slightest little thing about Military aviation. So what is your background?

Get it onto the open rather that hiding behind posts that dont reveal anything about you.

Fox_4

11th Jan 2005, 21:33

Mike - Are you really that much of an oxygen thief? Just a question

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 21:47

If you really truthfully can justify a trip to Switzerland to go mountain flying then go Mountain flying.

If you really truthfully can justify a trip to Switzerland to go skiing then go skiing.

BUT....Don't attempt top Justify a skiing holiday to switzerland for 40 people for 23 days on the back of a feeble excuse like mountain flying.

jockspice

11th Jan 2005, 21:49

I just wish we had that much cash in our coffers and some spare time to enjoy it!

heights good

11th Jan 2005, 21:53

You not playing mikehegland? What is your background then?????

JessTheDog

11th Jan 2005, 21:55

I think there is a troll infestation! I can't resist responding to some of the posts, but without the normal sense of outrage one feels towards a true adversary.

Aahh, Oberammergau...has anyone actually timed it so they see the Passion Play, rather than merely enjoying the Zugspitz, the Garmisch PX and Munich on the lash?!?

I had a great jolly in Athens not so long ago, p!ssed all week, ferried out to an officers' club resort on the coast, got more p!ssed, danced (in a Zorba the Greek convoluted manner) with the Greek chief of air force staff...didn't put my hand in my pocket, took lots of rates back home, the hospitality book still gathered dust in the office. :E

Any more fine jollies...sorry, frugal dispensation of taxpayers' monies?!?

zic

11th Jan 2005, 22:01

Mike,

This sort of environmental training is a good way to spend taxpayers money by maintaining a credible capability to enable us to fight in the winter in places like Afghanistan, Kosovo and Bosnia for example. Wasn't is a recommendation of the Kosovo Puma Fatal Crash BOI that crashed in whiteout conditions high in the mountains that we continue to train in such environments to avoid such happenings in the future?

So, capability aside, if you take a very financial view its spending money wisely to save money to avoid replacing expensive aircrew and machines!

ZIC

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 22:19

Thats all very well but what you are failing to understand is that it is Joe Public that you need to persuade...and he reads the Daily Mirror where he reads articles about the RAF spending £250k on a skiing trip and then he reads the Current Bun where he reads a story about the OC of a squadron having an affair with one of his Officers....

Great PR machine the AF have.

and so what does Joe Public think of that lot then. For a start his idea of an AF Officer is someone with slicked back hair, a handlebar tache and who constantly spills his Pimms whilst shouting Hoooorah !... Thats what Joe thinks the AF is like...and reading his daily rag does nothing to persuade him otherwise. And, so what does the great PR machine do (whilst bleating that the AF is so short of money we are forcing to make redundancies) we send a squadron on a skiing holiday....Great,. Thats done the trick then. Joe and his mates will think we are all great now then. And rermember, it is Joe who pays our wages and in particular it is Joe who votes.

Melchett01

11th Jan 2005, 22:38

Great PR machine the AF have.

Yes and things aren't helped by muppets like you bleating on about things that you obviously haven't got the first clue about.

Of course, we'll next be getting stories about time in the desert spent building sandcastles, sight-seeing trips over Baghdad and the like. What exactly would you and the Mirror have us do with our time and resources?? Just sit there doing cock-all until the moment they might actually be needed, by which time, skill-fade has set in so deep that nobody has a clue how to do their job any more, so they may as well wing it - "after all Carruthers, it would be a jolly bad show if we didn't at least give it a bash what what! Never be able to show my face in the Mess again to order another Pimms if I let the Sqn down". And then having tried to wing it, they plough into the side of a mountain.

And there's another headline for the Mirror - this time about how we can't do our job because we don't have the training to do it properly. But if it's in the Mirror it must be true. I just think that we could improve morale a bit more by buying proper toilet paper. As for Sir Jock being annoyed ...... of course - he's a choirboy isn't he. Never did anything like that in his day ..... hmmm

If you want to talk about value for money - £250K for 40 people for 23 days works out at under £300 per person (yes I know it's a crude average that doesn't take into account various other factors), but bloody hell, show me where else you could get that same amount of training for so many people at such a low cost per person? And if they get to have a bit of fun thrown into the bargain after all the crap they've had thrown at them over the past years - the sh*t dets, the cutbacks, the bad management from their airships, the fact that when they go home their families don't recognise them because it's been that long since they were home - then so be it. If you think that a some decent training that also happens to be enjoyable isn't warranted after that lot, then you come and have a go at the job .......

assuming you're not a complete pussy or are you just one of the wheezy old fat boys sitting on the sidelines with a note from matron, happy to critisize but won't get of your arse to help.

And no that's not a bite - that's me taking a bloody great chunk out!

flipster

11th Jan 2005, 22:46

Mike,

Bravo - excellent fishing, old boy.

Sorry to spoil your fun but PLEASE stop casting. To see so many people 'biting' has made my sides hurt - seriously, I haven't laughed so much in ages!

Come on the rest of you, chill out, this chap is not really being serious!

However, I just worry someone will say something they will regret. Or, God forbid, tell the truth about how hard detachments and exercises really are!

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 22:46

£250K for 40 people for 23 days works out at under £300 per person

£300 per person per day....good god man. Dont tell Joe that. he is lucky to get by on £300 a week nebver mind per day

all the crap they've had thrown at them over the past years - the sh*t dets, the cutbacks, the bad management from their airships, the fact that when they go home their families don't recognise them because it's been that long since they were home

Isn't that what Joe public is paying us for. Or is he paying us £300 a day to go skiing?

Skeleton

11th Jan 2005, 22:46

yawn....

The point is Mike you don't know they were on a skiing holiday, I take your point that lots of numptys will believe what the papers write, but at the end of the day there are a lot better qualified people than I would suggest you who can vouch for what they were doing and why.

Theres a whole raft of reasons that location could have been chosen, forthcoming deployment for a start.

Some of the best training, if not the best training, is available at the Red Flag ranges near you know where. Are you suggesting we don't train there because its to nice a place for the RAF to be seen in.

Maybe the Mirror would be better sending its Journalists (loose term I know) following the RAF to the more ****ty locations it has to go, and get a real take on what happens, rather than trying to sniff a story out of **** all squared.

PTT

11th Jan 2005, 22:49

Just because Joe Public believes the lies the tabloid press print as concrete fact does not mean that we can do anything about it. The spin of the story is clear in the fact that the RAF rebuttal was given a paltry single sentence.

I think the Mirror lost all credibility with regard to military matters after the "faked pictures" fiasco. That, and their inability to support the troops (as separate from the politics) during TELIC would appear to give them a clear grudge against the military.

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 22:51

I don't know they were on a skiing holiday. In fact seeing as the Sqdn is just around the corner from me I know exactly what they were doing...BUT the point is that Joe Public KNOWS they were on a skiing holiday cos he read it in the paper....and in the paper everything is true...

So, how do we go about getting Joe public on our side once again...

An Teallach

11th Jan 2005, 23:00

Mike - have a care or you will be reported to the EU Fisheries Commissioner. You must have exceeded the entire UK quota in this thread.

Well cast, sir - even though your early posts on the thread were rather more obviously tongue-in-cheek.

That said, the story will be tomorrow's chip-wrapper. Joe Public will have forgotten it and I only hope some arslikahn staff officer doesn't waste more public funds by starting a BoI or anything stupid like that.

Melchett01

11th Jan 2005, 23:05

How much do you think it would cost for similar training to be done in civi street then Mike? How much do these ' seminars' that top brass and managers cost per day and what do they get out of them?

The costs would have included everything from getting the aircraft and troops there, the daily pay rates for the troops, cost per man hour for flying the cabs themselves, the cost per man-hour for keeing the cabs serviceable, fuel. Any time they spent skiing is classed as adventurous training - or would you have preferred them to mount a second deployment back out to Switzerland, with all its attendant costs for that?

Now lets see what they would have actually got out of this "jolly" Other than the aircrews getting experience in flying in high and cold conditions, there is the management and leadership experience gained by actually putting together the deployment - especially if given to one of the JOs who had not done that sort of thing before; the benefits the entire deploymet gained from operating in a testing unfamiliar environment ... because we never go on deplyoed ops these days do we - god forbid we might want to practice for an upcoming deployment; and if nothing else, an increase in morale - you know - one of the fundametal components in any fighting organisation, the lack of which can scupper the best equipped and trained unit and render it totally useless.

Show me how much that lot would have cost if Bristows had decided to do it and I bet you we got better value for money in terms of costs and the benefits gained than any civi firm would have done. I still stand by my argument that it was money well spent.

Mikehegland

11th Jan 2005, 23:05

True...lets hope not

Training Risky

12th Jan 2005, 06:48

"...Joe Public...Joe Public...Joe Public..."

That's all I seem to be hearing from a certain poster recently. Why should we bother explaining what we do to the proles? 99.9% of them have no idea who, what, where we are or why we do it.

So what they don't know won't hurt 'em!

Especially if the turnout at the next general election is going to be p*ss poor again - they obviously don't care about defence as much as a certain poster here might like to suggest.

FJJP

12th Jan 2005, 07:21

One of the visits I made to Red Flag saw us staying in a fleapit motel at $100 per night [military rate]. We could have got a suite at Ceaser's Palace for $80 per night. Why, then, didn't we stay at Ceaser's Palace, saving the taxpayer $20 per head per night?

Because the PR Wallahs didn't want to feed the gutter press the headline 'RAF Aircrew Holiday at Top Las Vegas Casino - Funded by the Taxpayer'.

Mikehegland

12th Jan 2005, 07:34

Why should we bother explaining what we do
So what they don't know won't hurt 'em!

You should be ashamed of yourself. Those words are absolutely disgusting. There are servicemen overseas putting their lives on the line for your sake, you should skulk away and hang your head.

Clearly not a serviceman so leave this site and return to the gutter with the rest of your Journo leech's.

BEagle

12th Jan 2005, 07:47

In the days when we were allowed to train our VC10 crews properly, we used to fly the 'States Trainer' to give them experience of cold/hot/high/mil and civil aerodromes. 2 crews, 5 legs each including a pond hop for each crew. Met all the overseas training objectives and only took a week to achieve.

But we were told 'Not California', then 'Not New Orleans' - and then a list of politcially correct aerodromes was actually published in GASOs..

Why? Because the SASO didn't want to have to explain why one of his a/c was tits-up in New Orleans, Miramar or wherever. ****sville USA, no problem - but if there was the slightest sniff of it being somewhere nice, the idiot fun detectors' antennae would start twitching.

Of course, the concern wasn't at the unreliability of the knackered old things (that's the a/c, not just the instructors!) - but at the thought of 20 aircrew basking in the sun waiting for the supply system to raid a museum for the appropriate bit and then send it via the slowest form of transport known to man into the waiting hands of the 6 groundies who always travelled with us!

Once heard tell of a Vulcan whose hydraulics had given up in Hawaii. They asked whether they could use local USAF-sourced hydraulic fluid, but were told to remain where they were until a few tins of the approved RAF fluid could be sent out. Which, being DAC, had to go by Herc. It takes quite a while for Albert to bumble his sedate way out to Hickalulu - but I'm sure no-one in the Vulcan crew asked twice!

stillin1

12th Jan 2005, 07:54

mike nice fishing.

I think you can use less bait now as there are plenty of biters taking a nibble!

PS wots the AF thing? I thought the Sqn you are whinging over was in the RAF

Its pi@sing down outside so I suspect your spaceship won't be coming today to take you back to your home-planet any time soon:}

Hueymeister

12th Jan 2005, 07:57

Why can't we have a little fun on the back of a trainer? The Sqn have had a really sh&te year with Iraq/crashes/deployments...they and all the military deserve the odd perk...how many snivel servants have had to go to Iraq/risk getting bown up by some irate fundamentalist recently. Yeah I hear the arguement about value for money, and there being a cold weather training unit in Norway etc, but someone should get a few journos together and make them live like the boys do in the field.

p.s I know some already do/have done...maybe we should trawl some random civvies and take them to camp Dogwood and do a 'I'm Scared Witless, Get Me Out Of Here' TV reality show on them.

Mikehegland

12th Jan 2005, 08:20

they and all the military deserve the odd perk

No they don't. Why should the tax payer fork out good money for you lot to swan around enjoying perks?

You lot should do the job you are trained to do and stop trying to hoodwink the public by lame excuses as to conducting Moutntain flying whilst actually your off on a jolly.

but someone should get a few journos together and make them live like the boys do in the field.

Why mank and drip about doing your job? Doing a job you volunteered for? Doing a job you love?
Just get on with it and stop the drip.

Mad_Mark

12th Jan 2005, 08:31

Yawn :rolleyes:

Mikehegland

12th Jan 2005, 08:32

Can't believe that Germaine has quit BB. What is the world coming to?

Autorev

12th Jan 2005, 08:39

So come on Mike, give us a clue...
After such excellent fishing, are you serving as you sometimes suggest -
eg quote "So, how do we go about getting Joe public on our side once again..."

or are you a journo/ sad-sideliner ?
eg quote "You lot should do the job you are trained to do and stop trying to hoodwink the public by lame excuses "

I have a good idea myself as it has to have been a few yrs since I saw anyone in the RAF refer to a squadron as "sqdn" or the RAF as "AF".

As for your bleat about the PR machine.

"And, so what does the great PR machine do (whilst bleating that the AF is so short of money we are forcing to make redundancies) we send a squadron on a skiing holiday....Great" - I think you'll find the PR machine had very little indeed to do with the decision to send the boys.

We don't really care, as those of us who have 'been there and done it' know how on dets like that we usually work hard/play hard and reap the benefits when we go on ops as a well trained cohesive unit.

But civvie or not, since you are so knowledgeable about the workings of the sqn "In fact seeing as the Sqdn is just around the corner from me I know exactly what they were doing..." we really look forward to hearing your further words of wisdom!

safe single

12th Jan 2005, 08:39

heard they're looking for someone to go into the house and stir it up a bit..... fancy it Mike????
;)

Mikehegland

12th Jan 2005, 09:00

read my profile.

This is great fun though.. I didnt realise that you were all so passionate about wasting money and trying to hoodwink the public.

anyway. Ive had enough now. Off to create more havoc in the sim.

Could be the last?

12th Jan 2005, 09:35

This is probably the same Mirror jurno that contemplated having people put back in the trees in Africa, so they could see a uk Helo rescue them!! Seemingly it would look good to the UK Tax Payer... not to mention his scoop!

Its amazing how low these guys can go and then ask for a free ride to get to the action. :*

zic

12th Jan 2005, 09:49

Mike,

Great fishing but a little compassion on your part - people are so passionate about this because 2 Puma aircrew were killed in Kosovo in 2003 - the BOI found it was partially attributable to a lack of training in whiteout conditions in high mountains.

IIRC this training had been previously carried out but was discontinued due to lack of funds.

So when your mates are splattered across a snowy forest in Kosovo because some bean counter tried to save money it makes you somewhat prickly.

Given your profile I am sure you are au fait with the crash. So please cast your net elsewhere.

zic

Training Risky

12th Jan 2005, 11:08

GENERAL APPEAL TO CREWS AT 7,18,27,28 OR 33 SQN:

Walk up the street or drive up from Hampshire, find out who this tool is (if he's not using his real name) and give him a damn good shoeing.

Look at his profile, someone must know.

Whether he's just trolling for a bite or just being offensive, its unacceptable that he is in a position to post with more accuracy on matters of real hot/high flying versus simulator time..... yet he/she/it chooses not to.

He talks about wasting money - lets sack the overpaid simulator monkeys!

airborne_artist

12th Jan 2005, 11:22

He talks about wasting money - lets sack the overpaid simulator monkeys!

Are they serving QHIs, retired QHIs employed by MoD, or retired QHIs employed by CAE (the PFI owner/operator of the facility)?

BootFlap

12th Jan 2005, 11:50

:confused:

Could have sworn that when I checked Mikehegland's profile a few days ago, it was basically blank, now he is ex-rotary with 6500hrs. Maybe he just updated it but.......................

............................. I seem to recall checking his profile last November, and seeing he was a 757 (or maybe 737) bloke with 3000hours. I could be mistaken, does anyone else remember his profile from earlier? Does this man need 'outing', in the nicest possible way of course.