View Full Version : bmibaby Ops Dir resigns (Who shot JR?)

10th Jan 2005, 10:31
Heard on the wire that bmibaby has got shot of JR!

So MD went last month, Ops Dir this month, pay dispute continuing, what a good looking baby it is!

10th Jan 2005, 10:50
Yup, it's true!

I reckon he jumped before he was pushed.

Good riddance.

A very happy MP:D

10th Jan 2005, 13:36
Is there a for sale sign on the door of the Pathfinder at NEMA?

one four sick
10th Jan 2005, 13:49
Great news, should 'ave happened yonks ago.
JR - please don't come back like the real JR did!
What a boost for morale.
WHO's next????????

10th Jan 2005, 18:02
The biggest mystery might appear to be how he got there in the first place.

But then we all know the technique from observing the others "in power".

*Lick, lick*


10th Jan 2005, 19:35
Also worth noting that BALPA (also today) have published the baby strike ballot ...

A whopping 97% have voted for industrial action - 88% of which are prepared to take full strike action !

10th Jan 2005, 19:46
Your source, twodots?

10th Jan 2005, 20:41
The info' is accurate, from the BALPA cc.

Max Angle
10th Jan 2005, 21:19
A whopping 97% have voted for industrial action - 88% of which are prepared to take full strike action ! Lets hope it gets them further than us in mainline. Strong ballot, six months of hot air and then role over. Good luck chaps.

11th Jan 2005, 09:46
Strong ballot, six months of hot air and then role over A bit short on accuracy as usual, Max Angle - but then why let the truth get in the way of a good snipe at the union?

By the way, it's "roll" not "role":cool:

11th Jan 2005, 09:52
The info' is accurate, from the BALPA cc.Possibly alterego, but that is not the same as 'published' as claimed by twodots.

11th Jan 2005, 10:48
ArkRoyal, appologies ... the words were mine, not a direct quote.

Here's the actual quote from the Balpa indicative ballot result:

"Asked if they would be prepared to support industrial action in a formal BALPA
ballot, a total of 97% said yes. And, when asked to indicate what sort of action they
would be prepared to support, 12% of those said action up to Ė but excluding Ė
strike action, with a massive 88% saying they would support strike action as well."

Hopefully it will never come to that ...

Best foot forward
11th Jan 2005, 14:52
So is that 97% of the total pilot work force or just those that are balpa members, what is the % membership of balpa?

11th Jan 2005, 16:14
Best FF

I think the answer ot the first question lies in the title - a 'BALPA' ballot! Doh!

As to the second question of percentage of BALPA members within the pilot workforce, I would think it about 50%. Perhaps Young Paul could give a more accurate figure?

Anne :O

11th Jan 2005, 16:40
According to the latest chat with a cc member membership is @140 out of 171 pilots. Approx 82%

11th Jan 2005, 18:24

Now have the letter, which may explain a lot!:D

Count von Altibar
13th Jan 2005, 17:46
Have to say I like JR. As a manager though I think he's pissed a lot of people off. More power to the bmibaby pilots. I hope they go for an all out strike action.

As far as the bmi mainline cc are concerned they should go hide under a stone somewhere. They were given mandate after mandate and in the end delivered a poxy payrise. Disgraceful! I could not believe that they recommended the company final offer. They have ruined BALPA representation within bmi mainline and should start learning from the baby!

I for one am not leaving BALPA just yet but I'm certainly thinking about it. Most of my mates have left.

13th Jan 2005, 19:02
Never had a problem with JR myself.....

As far as all out industrial action ......
Guys wake up Your no longer fighting against Austin Reed.......

The group new CEO is not going to roll over and play dead guys ..
If you think you'l hold him to ransom think again .
God guys its almost time to sort out this years rise and you guys havent even settled last year .

Your the only part of the group left to settle......

TD has gone and anyone touting for his seat is going to be keen to be seen to support the group ceo is his pledge to keep costs down .....

Incase you hadnt realised the aint a money tree gowing in the pathfinder !



Miss Management
14th Jan 2005, 08:15

You sound like one of THEM!!!

FYI, if a strike action is called and indeed executed the stark choice faced by management is this:

Today thay have a company worth some money.

With their backs to the wall, after the strike they will have nowt!

Most baby pilots are leaving anyway and since no one is seeing their future in baby at the moment, I mean interviews everywhere etc, people need to get what they deserve if they are to stay even one more year.
Your posting therefore is defeatist and hardly productive sir!


14th Jan 2005, 09:56
According to Sir Michael a few months back in the press, Baby was the only part of the group making money.

This is on the back of all staff who have been dumped on time & again by 'management'! There is alot of movement in the industry right now and Baby pilots are worth more than they are getting at present.

We are not looking for a large raise this year but 1.5 % together with lifestyle improvements. If we don't fight for these now we will never get them. Next pay deal must bring us back into line with other 'Locos'.

Staff turnover this year is already going to be horrendous. The new CEO will realise that is going to cost BMI.

14th Jan 2005, 13:58
Absolutely right Alterego -

The company will pay either way by way of wages having to go up or, constant recruitment and loss of personnel.
The performance of management to date equals one very dim lightbulb, maybe 15 watts or thereabouts.
We'll see what next Monday brings, they had better seen the light by then, or I can smell a lot worse than a cup of coffee coming up!

14th Jan 2005, 15:08
For too long Airline Managers have been spouting the standard post 9/11 phrase of "you people should be thankful you have a job." Hopefully the message is now getting through that this attitude is now way way past its 'sell by' date.

14th Jan 2005, 19:50
Miss Management ..

You sound like one of THEM!!!

Oooh sounds llike you might be getting a bit personal ... refering to my skin colour ? sexuality ? gender ? religion ?

White male heterosexual catholic

Oh you mean baby management ????

Wrong !!!!

FYI, if a strike action is called and indeed executed the stark choice faced by management is this:

Today thay have a company worth some money.

With their backs to the wall, after the strike they will have nowt!

FYI, if a strike action is called and indeed executed the stark reality will be :

Yesterday you worked for a company doing the job your wanted to do ...

Today the company ceases operation.. and you find yourself looking for for another company ..

Tommorow baby emerges from the ashes looking for staff on new contracts and who knows what terms....

Believe me SmB and NT wont be held to ransom .

You seem to have overlooked the fact that EVERY other bmi group employee has accepted 1.5%.

And with some baby staff earning barely 9K 1.5% of your salary is considerably more than the increase they accepted (You previously quoted your salary on pprune )

If im not mistaken the life style improvements you seek are changes to your current contracted terms .... A contract that you freely signed of your own volition.... If you didnt like the contract you were free to decline the offer and seek other offers (Having checked your previous postings it would seem you joined WW from the ashes of duo...)

Your posting therefore is defeatist and hardly productive sir!

My posting is closer to to reality than you realise

The writtings clearly on the wall 1.5% is all thats on offer from last April accept it and move on to this Aprils pay talks.

BALPA didnt get more for mainline and wont get more for you.
If you strike the only ones to suffer will be fare paying pax and your pockets .


White male heterosexual catholic NON baby management

14th Jan 2005, 22:40
selling numerous of his charges down the river when he was on PLC then a nice round of golf with Dennis followed by a couple of pints down the lodge my heart bleeds for the slimey fat b*s*rd.One of the many very undesirables to have vacated Toad Hall.Sorry dont have a spare week to list them all maybe someone that gives a sh*t would like to chronicle the ignominious list.

15th Jan 2005, 07:37
captplaystation, superb post! Puts my effort to shame! :ok:

As for listing the other toads of the same "character", one could start with those who were formerly on the BALPA CC. If your tongue won't reach, get on the BALPA CC and "work your way up" (so to speak) that way. :mad:

15th Jan 2005, 09:05

You don't sound like a baby pilot at all.
Your highly/over defensive words against Miss Management makes me too feel suspicious about you.

Not one of us would have written what you have just been garbling on about.

Your giving in to 1.5% in the manner you are doing it is what's giving your 'non baby pilot' status away.

So, stay away, as you're attitude is not paticularly what we need right now.

15th Jan 2005, 11:21

You are wrong mainline have got alot more than 1.5 % when you take into account the addition of annual increments, etc.

We are not looking for more than 1.5 % but lifestyle improvements.

The feeling among the pilots is strengthening due to managements inaction. We have guidelines that they agree to that aren't adhered to & high turnover of staff that will only get worse unless the rot is stopped now.

For 3 years the workforce has made this company, despite the weaknesses that management could and should be avoiding. This with no payrise. The line in the sand has been drawn. As a profession we cannot let our terms and conditions deteriorate more and more whilst it becomes more and more expensive to get qualified and demand for our skills increases.

This is all coming at a time when there is choice for experienced pilots. You could argue that we should all leave for greener pastures but that is not always practical or possible. It is sometimes better that we make a stand and ask for/demand a reasonable response from the company.

That is why things have come to this.

15th Jan 2005, 12:41

Don't know from whence you hail, but if mainline, your charge:If im not mistaken the life style improvements you seek are changes to your current contracted terms .... A contract that you freely signed of your own volition.... If you didnt like the contract you were free to decline the offer and seek other offers is hardly relevant.

Mainline also began with CAP371 and evolved into the AFS protected state it now finds itself in. BALPA did that for them, and baby are setting out in that direction.

1.5% plus a few improvements to the worst disruption and hardest working pilot force in the UK. Not much to ask, but seemingly too much to deliver.

It's not a case of holding anyone to ransom, either.

I take it captplaystation won't be seeking an invite to the leaving do, then:p

Banzai Eagle
15th Jan 2005, 15:29
Seems strange that Thomsonfly can offer its Pilots some sort of scheduling agreement year 1 into its Operation whereas Baby Pilots are up to 900 hrs flying with no protection whatsoever.

Does'nt sound much of an ask to me.

The Mad Russian
16th Jan 2005, 11:22
Excuse me for butting into a meaningful treadÖ

But... the 'JR' talked about here is not a certain John Robertson Ex Oman Aviation?

If so I joined BM with him in 1986 on the Friendship, if it is the same, I find it hard to believe your talking about the same chap?? Iíve long since left BM, but thought he was a good guy back then with a great sense of humourÖ

16th Jan 2005, 11:45
Mad Russian

You are thinking of the same Guy. Maybe a nice man but there is a difference between being nice and any good as a manager.

16th Jan 2005, 19:17
Whilst I don't agree with the sentiments of the last two posts, lets just say that even apparently nice men catch diseases.

Some diseases are local to certain companies where the breeding conditions are allowed to spread unchecked.

Ambitionitis and Promotionitis, for example, are easily contracted. Lack of ability and low intelligence don't offer the usual immunity. A**e licking and willingness to shop one's colleagues seem to leave one especially exposed.

Fortunately, they're all kept in quarantine in a place called Toad Hall. Seldom do they venture anywhere near a cockpit where they could cause harm.

Hope that clears things up.

16th Jan 2005, 19:53
Yes back in the days when he was a jovial F/O who liked a beer and taking care of certain brummie based hosties one could be forgiven for liking him.Unfortunately he utilised the standard BM springboard (other peoples necks) to catapult himself seamlessly from BALPA rep to management.Many before, after& even now continue this treason;paying 1% to have 2 people trying to crucify you in a Disciplinary leaves me unable to have him described as a nice guy without adding historical perspective.I was not alone in being shafted thanks to his particular brand of help.(& no definitely not invited to the leaving do, not in the right club/when I shake hands there is only one meaning!) Best of luck to all of you still under that nasty little regime in fact getting so p*ss*d off that I left was one of my better career moves...As that other fat bloke sings NO REGRETS!

16th Jan 2005, 21:19
can i join as an f/o and work my way up to ops dir???

17th Jan 2005, 06:50
can i join as an f/o and work my way up to ops dir???
In your case, yes! You definitely demonstrate the necessary low level of attention to what people have been saying. :rolleyes:

You may wish to think again when you realise exactly which body part you need to "work your way up" in order to succeed. :yuk:

17th Jan 2005, 21:37
JR has always 'liked a beer and 'taken care of someone'. I think it is blxxdy condescending of Captplaystation to 'forgive someone for liking him'

I am not defending the man (Heaven knows, he did me no favours!) but the vitriolic comments of some here should be balanced by the fact that he was a thorn in the side of the company when he was Chairman of the BALPA CC. He for one kept the AFS alive.

Anne :O

Carl Rawson
18th Jan 2005, 06:34
John hasn't actually gone then?
I've just seen him (0715z 1/18/05). He couldn't stop he said he was called out to an AMS flight.
S'pose the benefit of not working directly for him is that he is/was popular with a lot of the ground staff.

19th Jan 2005, 14:33
JR Called from Standby!!!!????

No connection with the Ezy sims and BA recruitment going on yesterday and a shortage of baby aviators then.

20th Jan 2005, 20:26
My partner saw one of the Heathrow managers upstairs at D Hall today. To be precise, one of the "good guys". Could this be true.Is our life about to change? Lets start praying fellas!

24th Jan 2005, 22:03
Dear Mr/Ms Nonymouse , think you will find I wrote " one could be forgiven" as in the royal we,and yes I have forgiven myself. "thorn in the side"? Mmn. . not how I remember it , glad to hear he did you no favours at least I cant accuse him of being inconsistent. Apart from your response (the greatest insult is faint praise?) the underwhelming lack of defence would seem to suggest acbus1 and I pretty much hit the nail on the head?NUFF SAID.

27th Jan 2005, 21:29
I have it on good authority fron somene on the PLC that our new leader has left Queens and heading north.

27th Jan 2005, 23:59

you seem to be forgetting that the cabin crew haven't accepted the pay deal.

28th Jan 2005, 09:59
ArkRoyal- Mainline also began with CAP371 and evolved into the AFS protected state it now finds itself in. BALPA did that for them, and baby are setting out in that direction

Just a quick one ref above comment you have got to be kidding, bmibaby will never allow an AFS to be put in place even bmi regret why would a company do that to themselves - It's a pipe dream and will never happen

28th Jan 2005, 12:40
This is like reading the old duo/ Maersk forum.

29th Jan 2005, 20:26
Given the amount of duo / Maersk pilots recruited by baby it is probably the same 'posters' !


31st Jan 2005, 16:21
Chief Training Capt. also leaving for Tiger Airlines, must have been head hunted!

31st Jan 2005, 20:17
Or is this the Senior Training Captain (Ex BHX)?

Let us in on the secret.

1st Feb 2005, 17:22
I believe this to be the senior training captain.

I have heard suggestions that he has been "head" hunted, and that he fits into the Tiger airlines management structure like a hand in a glove puppet.

2nd Feb 2005, 06:34
...he fits into the Tiger airlines management structure like a hand in a glove puppet.
We all know where a hand has to fit to be in bmi management. :rolleyes:

Can't you lot use initials to identify individuals?

That's a better clue than "a senior training Captain ex BHX with a left eye twitch, a limp and a stutter who's seeing to a No.2 at Teesside......on Wednesdays."

2nd Feb 2005, 06:56
well it surely must beat having your head up there wouldn`t you say acbus1? !!:{ :{

Headset starter
2nd Feb 2005, 08:18
Just out of interest, do you guys dismiss ambition for a living?

I'm a young FO who would like to go far, but from you guys it sounds like I would be banished like satan if I wanted to develop a strong career in the bmi group.


2nd Feb 2005, 09:33
Just out of interest, do you guys dismiss ambition for a living?

If you have aspirations to be an airline pilot then you are being ambitious.

However . . . Airline pilots who have aspirations to be managers have an awful reputation for trampling on their erstwhile flying colleagues on the way up.

This does, of course, depend on the company culture.

2nd Feb 2005, 10:25
Ac bus

Senior training Captain's initials are CW.

Do we want to go far?

Well personally I want to go to work get paid and not have to worry about the company backstabbing you.

We have one pilot suspended because he `alledgedly` refused his 21st roster change in 2 weeks. No paydeal even thogh we accepted 1.5% in return for lifestyle improvements, which the company consitently fail to allow. A crewing department that see limits as targets.

BMI Baby is not a place to build a career.

2nd Feb 2005, 16:07
Headset Starter

theres nothing wrong with ambition. If you can overcome the prima donna attitudes of some of the posters on this thread(especially one in particular ) who seem to think that the airline owed them a living for ever and should be eternally grateful that they graced us with their prescence , then theres no reason why you should not go as far as your ambition takes you ,all you`ve got to do is ignore the negative attitudes and go for it, good luck to you !! :ok:

Banzai Eagle
3rd Feb 2005, 10:13

"Crewing Dept that sees limits as targets", not really fair to blame the messenger? Surely the culture starts with the accountable Manager and down thru DFO, Chief Pilot etc. I would imagine that the Crewing Dept would support an increase in crews or anything to make their life easier, but if the Mgmt says no you manage with what you have then they just get on with it.

Or am i just naive?

Sleeve Wing
3rd Feb 2005, 15:31
Just so, Banzai Eagle.
Even the many-years-in-the-making Computer Crewing system blew itself up because there were too few pilots available.

Oh, and BTW, Ark, it was the BALPA contingent of the BMA PLC (or CC.} of the time (1985ish ?) who developed the present protection of the AFS under the leadership and persistance of Tony Blades et al.

Yours aye,


3rd Feb 2005, 18:04
Don't know about the chief training capt, but mark my words the B Capt in heathrow is heading north to keep jr's chair warm.

3rd Feb 2005, 19:08

"CW" mmmm....??!!

This is definitely more like the Maersk/Duo forum than I thought. Same bunch ? probably.

Just hope they left behind some of the "groundies" playing havoc with your diaries and their old overprotective tyrant.

What a :mad:

4th Feb 2005, 10:30
Just so everybodys clear CW is the Senior Training Captain, as I said.

I do not anything about who is leaving for Tiger. Could be TB/CW or JR for all I know.

4th Feb 2005, 15:09
Just read (on ATI) that JR's joined Virgin Express as Ops Director.

Miss Management
4th Feb 2005, 15:32
Been common knowledge for a month!

4th Feb 2005, 17:04
Just read (on ATI) that JR's joined Virgin Express as Ops Director.
Virgin on the ridiculous! (to say the least). :rolleyes:

They obviously have'nt researched too well before recruiting.

Good move by JR though. baby ain't going anywhere.....certainly no prospect of expansion to the necessary critical mass. No expansion to critical mass = no future in the lo-cost business.

4th Feb 2005, 19:23
It is old news - it was on the bmi pprune forum when the original company notice came out last month!

The question is who will be the successor? CW is out of the running as he is on his way as well.

Anne :O

4th Feb 2005, 23:06

Who is this CW. I have applied to Tiger Airways but the huge amount of paperwork they need is enough to put anyone off.

What's going on in Singapore if a Senior Training Captain is going there? Anyone got any information before I make a big mistake in moving halfway around the world.

Tiger seems OK - strong shareholders, nice place etc. What's this CW like? What's his background and what about the current pilot management in Tiger? Have they resigned/been dumped?

I really need some info to avoid a possible big mistake for me and my family.

Many thanks for any help available

Miss Management
5th Feb 2005, 09:09

You can not be serious wanting details of a person on this forum!
Who are you more like, what's your beef exactly?
Are you someone known?
If you don't know who CW is then you don't need to, simple.

5th Feb 2005, 23:25
typical bus1 diatribe I wonder how the airline manages without you these days! . In fact baby are doing ok and will survive because they have the nouse and strength to succeed, perhaps the fleet might expand if the LH influence goes, either way they will be ok

Tiller Torquer
8th Feb 2005, 08:53

Like all start-ups, Tiger has been through a tough time. There's a new CEO and the rumour-mill says that he is doing a good job of putting the airline onto a better day to day footing.

The CAA in Singapore makes our own chopper down of trees look distinctly amateur! However, once though the hoops, it is no big deal.

Tiger has four parents, Ryanair, SIA, the Government investment organisation and Indigo Partners. They have in common that they want to make money. They differ widely in how. This has resulted in a somewhat disorganised start, but as I said things are improving.

Be very careful to establish from exisiting Tiger, Jetstar, Valuair or SIA pilots what it costs to live in Singapore.

If you are single and meet all the requirements of a Captain as defined by CAAS, then Tiger may well be worth a visit - Singapore is a good place to live. For those who will only get CPL privileges issued by CAAS, and so can only fly as an FO, be prepared to have to do all the ATPL exams again (JAA format) at the time you meet the CAAS command requirements. Doing the exams locally is possible but not to undertaken lightly.

Be careful

keyboard flier
8th Feb 2005, 12:21
It has just been announced that JR's replacement is to be Tim Berry.

8th Feb 2005, 14:50



8th Feb 2005, 15:13
If TB has got the job then turnover of staff will not slow down.

Not sure how many have their notice in at present but I do know of several who are waiting for results of interviews/sim rides.

Recruitment may not be a problem but turnover of staff is bad and only going to go one way.

8th Feb 2005, 16:02
TB definitely has the post .........

What is more interesting is who he chooses to be his chief pilot, and flight training manager. A quick look at the pilot list doesn't seem to throw up any obvious candidates from within.

Maybe he will have to look to mainline ?

Any ideas........


9th Feb 2005, 12:37

Are you sure you chose the right career ? you seems not a happy bunny !

With a man of your foresight, can you give me 6 winning lottery numbers for Saturday ?:=

9th Feb 2005, 13:20
If could give you 6 good numbers, I would not be going to work each day.

There are many colleagues who are very unhappy and most of the guys I know are actively looking elsewhere. Both COs & FOs.
Alot of the reasons for this are the attitude and actions of management, who fail to grasp that there are choices for guys with experience.

12-18 monhs ago we had to accept whatever was on offer but times have changed and management must realise this. Why else would 97 % of the Balpa membership vote for industrial action?

9th Feb 2005, 17:34
Are you sure you chose the right career ? you seems not a happy bunny !
You could be accurately targeting 90% plus of the pilot workforce with that comment! Unhappy and wondering if they chose the right career! :rolleyes:

Recruitment may not be a problem but turnover of staff is bad and only going to go one way
High levels of recruitment and turnover of staff can arguably have implications for standards (and, therefore, safety) for as long as it continues (and for some time afterwards until experience is gained).

9th Feb 2005, 22:43
what absolute drivel!!! the calibre of staff at baby cannot be called into question they are an extremely professional bunch of people

10th Feb 2005, 11:21

I think AC bus is saying that if you constantly lose people and are training up new crews, there is going to be a net loss of experience.

Nothing to do with the calibre of the new guys.

Let's face it there are so many new routes and such a large expansion (joking) that it's hard to keep up even if you have experience of low cost 737 ops!

10th Feb 2005, 17:22
Spot on, alterego.

But then, only a pilot would appreciate the true value of experience in this context.

Horrendous weather (within limits), Tech Log stuffed with Carried Forwards (within the MEL) and a new tech problem, or an airfield closure, or a medical problem, or a diversion or.........etc etc etc thrown in during flight for good measure. The last thing you need is a newly trained colleague "helping" instead of someone with a few years on type, route and operation under his/her belt/corset.

The same even applies to normal operation. Especially true in the lo-cost, pressure driven environment.

That's the value of a stable workforce.

No doubt holes could be picked in the above statement, but if you show willing, you'll get the jist of my meaning.

I live in hope. :rolleyes:

10th Feb 2005, 22:13
I would be more willing to listen to a point of view if it was made in a serious and honest way rather than as a thinly disguised attack on one of the better employers in our industry by a disgruntled ex employee ,you might also consider that many of our "newly" trained colleagues have by necessity spent a considerable time reading and inwardly digesting the vol9 and tech 8 so quite possibly may be better up to speed on current procedures than some longer serving flight deck members, if and when you get a command you might be pleasantly surprised if you give these guys and girls a chance :ok:

11th Feb 2005, 09:53

Knowledge is one thing but experience another.

You are quite correct that the new guys/gals are as capable as any of the staff but it does take time to get upto speed in any new airline job. This is especially so in the pressurised world of Low cost. It is a strain on resources such as line trainers, training dep't and rosterers. It also means, by nature of our industry, disruption to those on the line already.

There is also an increase in training cost to the company, which in the case of pilots is not insignificant when you consider all the groundschool, sim checks and line training and the associated hotac, taxying, etc.

It is, surely, better to look after your existing staff better than to constantly have to replace them.

11th Feb 2005, 10:11
That is a fair comment that puts forward a reasonable point of view in a constructive manner, rather than some of the whinge / moan type postings that some of our less objective friends tend to submit in futile attempts to continue personal vendettas against former employers

12th Feb 2005, 07:08
You are quite correct that the new guys/gals are as capable as any of the staff......

That's like saying that a newly qualified car driver would be able to cope with abnormal situations as well as a driver who'd held a Driving Licence for decades.

Common sense tells us that the experienced driver would, over a range of situations, measuring the overall average performance, cope better. He/she might rescue a situation and avoid an accident which the newly qualified driver would'nt. The experienced driver might even anticipate a problem and avoid it altogether, whilst the newly qualified would sail into the situation, blissfully unaware.

Hence my argument that high pilot turnover is bad news.

It's common sense, lets face it.

It's also what I've observed to be true, without question, based upon decades of watching it go on from the sharp end.

PS -- I've no doubt, whatsoever, that you could twist my analogy in order to suit your own particular viewpoint, but you ain't fooling most of the people reading this thread.

Experience counts!

12th Feb 2005, 09:16

You may disagree but what you have not taken any account of is that, unlike new car drivers, the new pilots have to acheive a set standard before they are allowed to join the company. Recent intake have been pilots with years of experience from Maersk / Duo. The most recent have been jet Captains from bmiRegional. As you say experience counts but, with your favourite myopic view, you fail to recognise that these are all experienced pilots.

Hence my argument that high pilot turnover is bad news. is a falsehood if you replace like with like.

You may have seen it all 'from decades in the sharp end' but so have I and, unlike you, I am still working for bmi. What I can tell you is that every one of the new pilots into baby is of the highest quality. The base training is good and they get excellent line training to ensure they are fully up to speed.

Anne :O

12th Feb 2005, 10:39
......the new pilots have to acheive a set standard before they are allowed to join the company.
That standard has varied enourmously over the years, with market conditions and pilot turnover being one of the major influences.

My experience during periods of high pilot turnover/shortage of supply is that recruited pilot standards fall, both in terms of ability and in terms of experience.

One Chief Pilot was once quoted, by several witnesses, as stating that the only objective was to put "bums on seats".

So much for "set standards"!

12th Feb 2005, 13:11

These experienced jet captains from bmi Regional....do they include the one who didn't quite make the grade as a captain with baby and actually struggled to get through in the RHS?

Baby have a big problem with recruitment/retention, training and the maintenance of "standards". Not ability per se, but keeping everyone operating to the same procedures is proving difficult. This is due, mostly, to the high turnover and the dearth of experienced and motivated trainers.

ACBus may have other issues but he is not far off the mark on this one.

12th Feb 2005, 15:45

Have to say I think we are arguing about the same thing.

Yes, the majority of the new pilots are very capable but no, they do not have the extra benefit of experience.

Retention is better than recruitment, even TB has inferred this in today's E-mail (purely on the theme of roster disruption).

12th Feb 2005, 17:11
Iím a lour hour pilot and desperate to get into baby. I'm also a senior manager within my organisation and have to concur that you canít beat experience, and a high turnover of staff is always a problem for us, as the training can take up to 2 months. Now when you add in the cost of all this, I would always try and retain staff. You canít always count on people moving onto bigger and better things, but you can create an atmosphere within a company to make employees feel valued, listened to and respected. Then again Iíve also come to realise that no matter what you do, you'll always have some moaners for the sake of it and there isn't a company in the world that hasn't got them !


12th Feb 2005, 17:35
or have got rid of them (and the rest of the world gets to hear about how "awful" they are for ever more!!):{ :{ :{ :{

13th Feb 2005, 21:07
There are problems at baby at present.

The trouble now is that too many guys have heard too many promises which have achieved nothing. Many guys I fly with day today are actively looking elsewhere.

Management have not sent BALPA details they promised but have sent some kind of apology. This for a paydeal due last April. Whoever is/was to blame, the men in the Pathfinder building need to understand the desparation that they are about to find themselves in. There are so many good guys with interviews/sim rides that it is hard to see how the programme will not be affected.

14th Feb 2005, 08:06
Iím a lour hour pilot and desperate to get into baby.

but you can create an atmosphere within a company to make employees feel valued, listened to and respected.

If the former is true, and you are looking for the latter. You are barking up the wrong tree, old son.

Banzai Eagle
15th Feb 2005, 18:08
how many pilots are there at Baby vv how many aircraft would give us outsiders an insight into the beef of the problem

16th Feb 2005, 08:40
Not sure of total numbers but in CWL there are 2 A/C.

Based there are 7 Captains, 1 Captain who flys only in RHS & 10 First Officers.

This seems to add to thetheory that you can get qualified guys/gals but not experienced ones.