Radar heading MAN Ctrl WAL-IOM

[Empty Cruise]

Hi all, but especially Manch CTRL,

Have often been told "Route dct MALUD, when steady inbound MALUD, make that a radar heading & report it" No problem - easiest way for ATCO to avoid guessing at drift angle and still maintain the lower separation from radar vectoring.

But inevitably, when routing WAL-L10-BEL, we get "Fly hdg 330", and then a few corrections for the wind, all aiming us more or less direct for IOM (and no complaints - you guys & girls are very good at getting right :ok: ).

My question is - why are we not subjected to the procedure described in the 1st paragraph on this particular segment? I've not had it happen anywhere else, and it hapens 9,85 out of 10 times :confused:

OK - in all fairness - Manch S also use it when changing us from a WHI3E (out of BHX) to dct WAL. Bet there is some sneaky explaination to it :D

Brgds - and thanks for a usually superb job!
Empty

[bagpuss lives]

Someone cleverer than wot I am guv will probably answer this in a more eloquent way but I'll try my best until they come along.

The answer lies in the traffic orientation scheme (TOS) along, or rather "up", L10.

As part of the standing agreement between us at MACC and the ScACC Antrim sector boys and girls we stick traffic on the northern edge of the airway on a radar heading - not straight through the centre (you should be offset from the IOM VOR by a little not heading dead for it).

Conversely the Scots will do their damnedest to plonk traffic inbound to our sector (the West/IOM sector) on the southern edge of L10. This way everyone is nicely separated - TMA outbound climbers on the north from TMA inbound droppers on the south and so on and so forth. Somewhere in that mix/mess we also have to squeeze overflyers in each direction at anywhere between the base of the airway and FL240. So a lot of headings are sometimes required to get everything set up in a safe and orderly manner. And to ensure noone drifts off outside CAS.

So that'll be why you'll eventually end up on a heading of 315/320 or so on your way up L10. And coming the other way, more often than not, you'll be on 135/130 towards the south.

This doesn't happen with the MALUD/CREWE routing as no such TOS exists per sé, which is why you'll get direct MALUD and then plonked onto a heading against traffic coming the other way or traffic joining the mix at WAL.

Dublin do, at times, try to put traffic inbound to the sector on the southern edge of L975. This isn't always necessary though.

Hope this helps a little and we're always glad to have flight crew visiting the place if you fancy seeing it all in action.

[Tower Ranger]

Sounds like the Scots have it sussed. They get Manch to put traffic on the north side of L10 whilst it is EGAA who aim all the BFS/BHD traffic towards the south side can make for an interesting day at work when we`re working on 07/35 and 04..

[eastern wiseguy]

when we`re working on 07/35 and 04..


Or more precisely when WE (BFS) are working 07/35 04 and TR is throwing them off in any old order:ok: :ok: (Things might be changing though eh Mark??:E :E)

[Empty Cruise]

Hi Niteflite,

Thanks - presumed something like that, and yes, we often end up crossing abeam IOM abot 3-4 NM to the E ;)

Would love a visit, thanks for the invite. But - out MAN turn-arounds of 30 min. :{ do not leave much room for excursions.

While I have such an esteemed crowd assembled - we fly LTN-GWY and BHX-GWY, and often we are in desperate need of short-cuts on the W-bound routes due dly and headwinds. And often you guys pull miracles out of your Sorting Hat and get us a route S of the L70 :ok: My question is - is there any way/route/rpl/level/magic sequence of words that will unlock some more of those routings? :confused: I know that it much depends on DUB L18 inbounds/outbounds, and when we look at levels between 140 and 200, I doubt that there is much to be done :sad: But maybe there is some way of doing it? E.g. if we were to route via TOLKA, what level could keep us out of the DUB fray (using 28 as worst-case for arrivals)?

Just remains to say thank you for superb sector handling - always a pleasure :cool:

Brgds,
Empty

[Tower Ranger]

Now Eastern you know I meant the "Royal" we!! There I was sticking up for you and the good folks out in the country and you tell them you`re doing all my work for me!
04 keeps us on our toes as the handovers are usually later, understandably, we need more space between inbounds and we run out of controlled airspace pretty quickly to the SW.
You should come down and have a go form the cheap seats and hey if you like it just think of the petrol you`d save each day!!

[bagpuss lives]

Apologies to the Belfast boys for missing them out of the original equation there :ok:

Empty Cruise - Yeah I know exactly which sort of routings you mean.

Had one just before Christmas due "fuel" and we gave a lovely big shortcut - WHI NDB direct Galway if I remember correctly :D

I'm not really sure regarding route specifics in terms of going that way thanks to your FPL - someone from flight plans would be much more qualified to answer that for you. Chiglet - are you out there old son being the resident FPL expert and all?

Whenever possible, as you say, the West chaps and chapesses will do whatever they can to give you as direct a routing as possible if requested over the RT. If you get a "no" there'll be a very very good reason behind it. We're an obliging bunch at all levels :ok:

Glad to be of some help mate and if there's anything else don't hesitate to yell :)

[Empty Cruise]

Niteflite - yep, I had the pleasure of being yours truly on the recieveing end of that one :D - impressive work (and most appreciated at the time - methinks we were running just a tad - 2 hours - late :ouch: ).

Was thinking of maybe playing around with the level we would approach the boundary in - maybe excessively low or excessively high, just to let the L18 tfc over or under us. Even going down to 120 would cost-wise be offset by - e.g. TNT-TOLKA-GWY. So if another brilliant idea at one point springs into your mind, we are all ears - aiming to keep it easy for you lot as well. Frankly, my asking here is an attempt to avoid asking for stupid stuff over the radio - our requests must at times sound to you as (some) pax requests sound to us ("Why can't I take my hurley as cabin luggage" springs to mind among other gems :) ).

Best wishes fm
Empty

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Hiya,

While were on the subject, do you lot at the IOM/West sector put inbounds to NS on the north side (coming from the south-east)? And at which point do you hand them off to radar over here on the island?
I'm training for my pilots license atm, so will hopefully be on the receiving end of some of these discussed routings!
Martyn

[bagpuss lives]

The answer to your question is - it various depending on the tactical situation at the time. If there are no EGNS outbounds to get in the way we may simply route the inbound to KELLY.

If there are outbounds however we commonly tie it up with Ronaldsway that they launch the outbound traffic towards the south-side of L10 and we'll give them the inbound traffic on a heading to keep it clear, on the north-side, as you say.

It all depends on what's happening in the area at the time.

As for the point of transferal of comms to EGNS APP - that varies too but it's always at the soonest point whereby we're sure they're clear of confliction and sure that they'll remain clear (as long as that point lies within Ronaldsway's radar range of course)

[Ronaldsway Radar]

niteflite01 -

Ok, thanks a lot, all finally falling into place now!
By the way, whats the chances of me being bale to make a visit to the place that controls IOM sector? Would be nice to see what goes on.
Martyn.