Shifting Sands of EK Terms & Conditions [Archive]

Cerberus

31st Dec 2004, 06:13

Utilities, schmootilities. A few thousand here or there won't scare anyone off from wanting to come to the city of gold and.....say it quietly, sand.

Don't believe the trainer rumour is a rumour, it is now in the open. They want, I believe the numbers are, 10 TCIs to resign and 5 TCEs to be TCIs. It will probably be done by LIFO.

Now interestingly there is the chance of a move to the 310 (Freighter?) but not to the 777 even though they are gonna need a load of trainers this year. Better to take DEC 737 trainers probably; than EK former 777 qualified now 330 trainers!? It is the 'emirates filosofeee'

I think they have discovered that in the new 'cost neutral' environment that with the current number of trainers it is more expensive than when they were paying pay per duty. Cunningly though the new contract pays less than the old, the harder you work. So if you reduce the trainer numbers and work them harder it costs less. Clearly there has been a reduction in the 330 task but over the last few years the guys have been working too much. This means that guys in ,say, standards haven't been able to do as much standardising as perhaps they would like. Added to that, a trainer doing a ground duty, but not in the sim, just like the recruiters gets no credit. What incentive is there to work? All the old good will has just been swept out of the office.

As to recruitment, all the guys that resigned when the new system came into place have been made to work on anyway. Eventually a new system will be in place which has little involvement from the customer, Flight Ops. That cannot be good! They are going to pull F/Os off the line to fly in the sim. You wannabees might just be unlucky enough to get a C- operator out of position in the left seat deciding whether or not you get a job. They will almost certainly be p*ssed off because they won't get any credit for the task and if you are a DEC will see you as stealing their career.

So lets take stock:

1. DECs, changes to command rules = p*ssed off pilot group. DECs have less experience than a lot of the F/Os, the only advantage they have is that they are Captains currently and not Captains that have the added bonus of EK operational experience. The management seem to take the view that it will be ok because our F/Os are so experienced they will be able to look after them. Oh and did I mention it is cheaper to give a 737 shorthaul Captain a full Transition course than to Upgrade an EK F/O (even if they are better qualified) because you would still need a Transition course for the F/Os replacement. In theory you save on the Upgrade course costs. So....it saves money

2. It could be argued that they change the management every couple of years when they have done too much damage to remain tenable. Next guy wins more popularity by cutting the last guys levels even further. The error chain gets longer and it...Saves money

3. Change the T&Cs of the crews but pretend it is 'cost neutral'. Don't lie to us we are not stupid, it is not cost neutral! It is amazing that I am now considered not to be on duty when I do my PPC. The PPC is the way in which the general public are ensured that they have a competent operator in the front of our aircraft but the company don't consider it as duty. Bizarre! Sadly most of the pilots assure me that they will take the same view as the company and the T&C changes will be seen as 'goodwill neutral' too. But..really...it saves money

4. Office days don't count. So how do you get someone to do all the important jobs that ensure important things don't fall through the cracks. But...it saves money.

5. Recruitment will now have little Flt Ops involvement. How does anyone else know what Flt Ops need? The effects of this should be felt just as the 380 comes on stream. But...it saves money.

To sum up:

One of the fastest expanding airlines in the world. The best way to manage change is to ensure continuity and to keep the goodwill of all the employees so that despite a paucity of resources the expansion is carried out safely.

What have the management done? ....Yep, cut costs. We have had one incident this year which was (in my view!) due to our expansion. New aircraft type, inexperienced (on type) crew and poor training and technical advice. To solve this problem we sacked a couple of managers and then announced the expansion would be even bigger. Then to ensure we improved safety we correctly trained the area that was deficient. Critically, we haven't changed the system that lead to the error! Instead we have:

Got inexperienced, on type and more importantly long haul operations, DECs. Cut the T&Cs of the crews. Destroyed the F/Os career prospects and in a stroke removed any remaining goodwill. Whilst deciding to remove any incentive to work in the office. We then reduce the number of trainers and make them work harder. Added to that we have changed the recruitment system at exactly the moment that we need to keep the standards up.

And why.....due to short term earning figures and a fuel price hike.

As a pilot I am never allowed to quote safety as being an issue. Employers always say that pilots only raise the safety card when T&Cs are mentioned. Maybe they are right, who knows.

Well, the current management will only find out the effect of their recent changes in about 2 years when different standards are coming through the system, we are introducing another 2 new aircraft types and guys haven't been carrying out the boring but essential tasks in the office. The safety net is being eroded and only then will we be able to see what the short-sighted, manager derived, error chain has led to.

I hope I will be proved wrong because if I am the managers will be able to sit back and say 'look how much we saved!'. If they can do that it will be down to the last ditch efforts of the front-line operational staff - Flightdeck, CCMs, dispatchers, engineers etc saving the day and breaking the chain. If not I guarantee all of them will raise the 'how could anyone have seen that coming?' flag.

Off to bed, back in my box:zzz::yuk:

(Last paragraph edited)

PITA

31st Dec 2004, 13:09

And now to add insult to injury with the changing T's&C's, rumour has it that due to the increasing rents being charged to Emirates, our pilots are being told not only that they have to leave the accomadations they were provided, but pay for the move out of their own pockets.

This being done sometimes with only 2 weeks notice being sent from the Accomadations dept.

Either that or pay Emirates the difference in the rent.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to you too!!

fatbus

31st Dec 2004, 13:42

That one I find hard to buy. More facts please

crapflying

31st Dec 2004, 17:05

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!!

I can confirm to all of you reading pprune the two rumours about the training staff on airbus being told to move to the 310 or give it up and the moving villas deal. On the first note I saw the letter, shown to me by my neighbour who is a tci signed and all by the big heads, and on the second note it does affect one of my friends down the road....
What is amazing, is that all this is done during a time of expansion when Emirates has not lost real money yet, imagine what is coming our way should or actualy when we get in to great trouble. Emirates has decided to recruit its future pilotbody from the South-East pilot pool, as this guys from Malaysian Srilanka etc will be eager to come so no problem filling bums in seats. EK got lucky yet again with this horrible Tsunami catastrophy as those regions have been hard hit and enough pilots from Indonisia and Malaysia will be willing to come by the droves. For them even with the new T&Cs they will be happy.
It is unfortunate that our FOs will not be able to get their chance in the left seat as early as they expected, and definetely now with lower income it is not worth staying or coming from Europe. The amazing thing is that Emirates is also treating with outer disrespect its Captains and TCIs and TCEs but they do not seem to mind as cost cutting is more important than happy employees.
Surely new things to come will be a cut in the utilities allowance even though it is in the contract, (what are you going to do leave, or take them to court, and even for those that do leave it is still a cost cutting option worth doing because the long term effects greatly outway the short term loss of the training bond. The 36000 US is not a real figure it probably is closer to 15000 and even with this, if 15 percent of the FOs leave {figure taken from the pilot body details in the CBC all European FOs} you are talking about 75 FOs at 15000 US not a big number compared to 2000 Dirhams a month at 1250 pilots soon to be 2500. You can see that even at our current levels. The training bond cost is around 1.2 million US the savings in utility allowance is 6500 US a year for each pilot so you are talking about 8.1 million US. It is not that difficult to see which is more cost beneficial...
Good Luck to us all, the only way you will see any future progress in our T&Cs is if all unite as one pilot body since numbers now days do count as you can see by this small cost cutting exercise just discussed.
Emirates is not what it used to be, but more importantly Emirates in the long term is not worth coming even for a DEC like me. I on the other hand have only two more months to go so hopefully you guys will find the strength to unite and be counted. Call in sick as much as you can and keep your chin up. I do not have the energy to stick around and fly the back side of the clock nor the desire to waste my few more years left to live on this planet to worry about what else is coming our way..

330 Man

1st Jan 2005, 05:20

Happy new year to all!

I ran into a mate of mine last night who is a AB TRE and got the real poop! 10 Tre's to be moved down to TRI's and 15 TRI's to be moved out of the training department. Nothing said about the 310. The timing is questionable, (they could have waited until after the first of the year), but it make sense. We are taking the last 340 soon and will not have any AB's delivered for 18-20 months. With 1-2 initial classes and only 2 upgrade classes for 2005 there will be nothing for the TRI"S to do anyway. Why not save money by returning the excess TRI's to another job?
The thing that makes it all smell like the loo is that we are hiring TRI's for the 777 and firing TRI's on the AB. AAR and his camel loving pals do not have a clue on how to win friends. It is a sad joke to be treated this way but it is their toy to play with as they see fit! Stay tuned, it will get more interesting?

Regards,

330 Man

Marcellus Wallace

1st Jan 2005, 12:53

"Emirates has decided to recruit its future pilotbody from the South-East pilot pool, as this guys from Malaysian Srilanka etc will be eager to come so no problem filling bums in seats. EK got lucky yet again with this horrible Tsunami catastrophy as those regions have been hard hit and enough pilots from Indonisia and Malaysia will be willing to come by the droves. For them even with the new T&Cs they will be happy."

If the terms and conditions now seem good for guys (some with heavy metal EK type) from SE Asia, it must have been a windfall if they had a chance to come years ago.:hmm:

Certainly don't need a tsunami to encourage them to come.

Don't get me wrong - they don't wish for any erosion in T & C's - they already have that back home.:(

Selamat Menyambut Tahun Baru

rainforest

1st Jan 2005, 14:20

Lets see...
The Tsunami will make a lot of people from the south-east pool to come to EK. I cud not remember why I chose to come to the desert a few years ago, the weather ? Naaahh..last week's weather was almost as wet as the ole blighty and in some parts of UAE, we have snow!!!!
I for one, will not hesitate to come here if the conditions that I was getting before is worst. What about the rest of us who don't come from that region ? Why did we ended up here in the first place ?
Cerbie,
To say the DEC have less experience than a lot of EK F/O is somewhat errorneous. Those F/os who have the criteria for the DEC have been made Captains, I can name a few if you want ( You knew them as well...). The Ts n Cs are not getting better, thats for sure. Its everybody to its own. Some have made the move ( at least 2 this month). But the solution is...........?????

albatross2004

1st Jan 2005, 19:23

yawn YAWN yawn

:rolleyes: :p

What crap are you EK drivers posting here. Isn't Emirates a commercial company? Is it not prudent for any management to run the affairs and make or review policies in order to ensure continued commercial viability? So if your cool retreat is under review then why do you say that the sky is falling? What is wrong with rationalization of your T&Cs? Can't you for once see beyond your selfish noses and realize where you would be today if Emirates had not given you a job? If things are as bad as you would have the outside world believe then please do yourself a favour and quit EK. If any of you have authentic statistics of pilots who have quit EK recently due to the alleged deterioration of T&Cs then please post the figure here.

:bored:

CERBERUS:

You take the PPC in order to renew your licence so that you may be RETAINED in the job you have. You are lucky that the company pays for the SIM etc. Why should the trainee be paid any credit for renewing his licence that is required by the trainee to stay in employment? Why should any company consider PPC as duty? You should be grateful that the company bears the expense for your licence renewal that assures you get a salary for the next 6 months. I'd say you ought to take STOCK of yourself.:ouch:

330 MAN:

You are right. Adel Al Redha and his team do not have a clue how to win friends.:{ You are daft. Adel Al Redha and his team is in the business of keeping Emirates profitable and efficient, and certainly not in the business of as you say winning friends. And where does winning friends find place, any place in commercial enterprises? Adel Al Redha is doing full justice to the responsibilities that have been entrusted to him, and if in keeping the Company's interest paramount some spoilt brats like yourself have now to fall in line, then so be it. :cool: :p :ok:

Foreign Worker

2nd Jan 2005, 00:41

Reading the above "you should be be grateful to the company for employing you" bs, by albatross, my guess is things are only going to get worse, as fat managers (who do nothing to improve the real productivity) screw the real revenue-producing workers, to support their bloated conditions.
Quite frankly, they have run out of ideas - or perhaps never had an original one in the first instance - and must now resort to pilfering from the true backbone of the company.

It's becoming endemic, worldwide in airlines.
But we are in agreement on one point, "do yourself a favour and quit EK."
Get away from the stench of the camel sh!t, the 49 degree summers, and the men who think holding hands with other men is the norm.

crapflying

2nd Jan 2005, 03:55

Albatross2004

You definetely have the wrong view on the way things work. Most of us who came to Emirates had other jobs and some of us had realy good jobs. Emirates has given us nothing, we have given them a vast experience and expertise and the opportunity for them to fly their passengers around the world. In return they have signed a contract which they now do not want to honour. If nothing else they have missrepresented the company and its intentions. Even in the routhless competitive business world you are talking about, there are rules and regulations, making false representations is illegal and not only unethical.
The problem is that people like you are running most of the companies around the world, and it is for this reason that most are failing or providing a **** standard. The exceptional few companies that actualy take care of their emplyoees and think of them first never ever faulter or go through bad times.
Think of Southwest in the Unites States, what about them? Don't you think that they have to buy expensive fuel, or face the problems of a recession, or the post 911 ways of the market? Yet they honour their employees and realize that it is not only numbers that make profits, but more importantly the people who deliver the product to the customer.
I have no problem with bad airlines and bad managers, I would never join them in the first place, and even if I did it would be myself that I would have to blaim. The idea that Emirates lured us down here and so many others from great jobs on false pretences is what gets me.... If you have no choice then great you should not complain, but excellence and innovation does not come from people who are merely happy to go from pay-check to paycheck. Emirates never once claimed that they want to be average, nor did they recruit until now just average guys, (except maybe in management). Great minds will always be uneasy when greatness is not achieved or seeked...
In the end they will lose, as it has already started. They might be taking the piss out of the pilots and cabin crew today, but they are only shouting themselves in the foot. The sick rate is sky high at the moment and it will remain so since good will on our side is not there any more, the flexibility they want is not there any more, and they are failing to attract the right people for the job thus in the end the brand is suffering. In the cabin the service has droped (do not take my word for it, just look at the ratings from no 1 down to no17) and still dropping, and the competition is only getting better.
Emirates management is doing the same mistakes done by all the other companies who were in their shoes at different times. They are destroying the very base that they need to present the consummers with. A product as good as it might be depends on people delivering it. Any company around the world that has its people first knows this and continues to succeed. If you think that by creating an atmosphere of mediocracy is the way forward then you are trully not only an average person with no abilities or capabilities but definetely with no vision for the future.
Albatross I believe that you my boy are totaly inept, with no abilities and no understanding of the dynamics of a company. You my boy lack the skills required to manage a trully global company with great people and great minds.
You should probably thank your employer who has you onboard and has not not realized your deficiencies yet. You probably are the one that knows you are lucky to have a job and kisses up to his boss for what money you receive from the company. In the end though you definetely are living a fearfull life always afraid of tomorrow and what it holds for you. You my boy have no real future, at best you are a used car sales man with no dreams and empty promisses...
Not me, and not us down here...

hapimus

2nd Jan 2005, 04:54

well i hope it is not that bad in ek.
i m about to quit my job n move to the place of sand.
can albatross please describe to me what is actually happening.
beside all the negative ness , any good inputs about working for ek ang life in dubai ?
thanks , sorry if offended anyone.

Backwater

2nd Jan 2005, 05:11

Hapimus. Just run a search on this forum and you will find plenty of opinions on both sides.
I don't envy your situation, but if it was me, I wouldn't come here now, as a DEC or F/O.
Good luck.

Believe Brother

2nd Jan 2005, 09:00

Albatross 2004

Your argument is so one sided, we can only surmise what you do for a living. If EK hadn't employed me, I would actually now be far better off staying put. As I have said on another thread, I made the call on the T & C's I was presented with at the time. They have changed and eroded due to a hostile management. So now, I am worse off than if I was still in my previous company, which is still in excellent financial shape.

Regarding your comments on the PPC renewal, isn't it just as important for the company to have us with current ratings so that we can fly the aircraft in these times of expansion? So, we don't get paid if we don't do a renewal, but I think there would similarly be nobody to fly aircraft if we didn't do renewals!

Take a little bit of the emotion out of your comments, and argue logically. You are acting in the same way AAR and his gang act toward the pilots of EK, and that certainly does not make people want to do a job well to help the company.

Shake

2nd Jan 2005, 11:34

Please don't waste any time on Albatosser; he's been kicked off this site by the moderator many a time and only gets worse if you humour him or take the bait of his drivel.

Next to join in will be WK leading the charge with his 'if you don't like it leave' brigade...

Well said CF. It is a sad mess at EK and doesn't look as if it is going to get any better...worst of all it is so unnecessary.

millerscourt

2nd Jan 2005, 15:02

Shake

Spot on re WK. I do however detect that even he is finding his rose tinted spectacles getting clearer as his command disappears over the horizon,then again perhaps not. I bet he even thinks his cat and dog just love living in Dubai! Then again probably better than a council estate in Crawley. :confused:

Dropp the Pilot

2nd Jan 2005, 15:20

Thanks for that, Millerscourt. It's always valuable to get the perspective of someone who has never worked here. That reliable tone of bile-laced desperation with just a soupcon of schadenfreude is always good for a chuckle. Your medication seems to be working reasonably well.

I work at EK. I am not in the job market. I will work nine days this month and make a bucket full of money, which is precisely the kind of job description I was looking for when I got into this game.

Personally speaking, if I was looking for a job right now, I would get onto PPRUNE and find an airline which employed 1200 pilots, only three of which were consistently peeing and moaning on a public website. Then I would apply there.

albatross2004

2nd Jan 2005, 15:28

Foreign Worker:

Reading the last line in your post of 2nd Jan makes me wonder if you joined Emirates and moved to Dubai while someone was holding a pistol at your temple. Don't you sweat my dear fellow, as your ID here on pprune conveys, the National programme will take care of your woes eventually, and if you want to be FREE then you can always send in your resignation. And now that we are on the subject of resignations, how many of you lads are typing notices to EK.:mad:

Shake:

Dahling you cant gulp the truth. Can't face the mirror when you are shown one. BTW can you tell me how many times I've been kicked by 4HP. Maybe 4HP can set the record straight.

:D

hapimus:

Don't let the mess being posted here by EK spoilt brats confuse you. I'll suffice by saying that despite all the humbug about EK , how many of this lot has left Emirates in protest. They don't have the gall, they don't have equal or better opportunities in their home countries, and they'll bloody well stick around. So you make your own deductions. These here are a bunch of prejudiced, self centered fraternity and the sole purpose of their antics is to dissuade competent professionals from joining the company lest their monopoly in the cockpit gets threatened. But let me assure you their schemes are not hidden or not understood no more, and they stand exposed. They have realized this, and all this talking against the good company and its competent management is nothing other than a FEEBLE attempt to somehow scare those responsible, for running the company efficiently and profitably.:ok:

Believe Brother:

Brother believe you me :cool:

Shake

2nd Jan 2005, 15:44

DtP:'Working 9 days this month and a bucket full of money'...are you sure you're in EK? Good job they weren't in the office or in the sim/days off as your bucket would be half empty...sorry, that would that be half full wouldn't it:confused:

rainforest

2nd Jan 2005, 18:23

My Oh My,
You are really living up to your name, Crappie ! So, with your vast experience ( mind you, Cerbie said a lot of current F/Os have more experience than you ! ), you managed to be lured into coming to the desert ? If your previous job with a truly people minded employer is so damn good, what the hell are you doing here ? You want a job that pays lots and still pays lots whatever happens.........Join Air India !!! Its 2.5 hours to the east my friend. But some guys there definitely spells better than you ( don't take it too personal okay buddy ! )

4HolerPoler

2nd Jan 2005, 20:21

Ohh, you bunch are just beautiful - this is great!!!!!!!!!!!! This is getting better than center court at Wimbo's. Keep it up fellas, this is really building into a great thread!

4HP

Quod Boy

3rd Jan 2005, 01:07

Albatross,

Your opinion is your opinion,but people like you,who endorse,tight fisted practises such as "paying for your own PPC", and then being "grateful"to the employer,result in our industry being in the woeful situation it is.Pilots being paid peanuts in their first job,and operators such as Ryanair etc,charging for applying,then your own training.,uniforms etc,No doubt you agree on that.EK do not indulge in such practises,and I hope they never do.

Cerberus and A330 man hit the nail on the head,you are either in the inner sanctum,or totally devoid of any understanding,on what has been going on here at EK.

Truly,truly amazing,to suggest people should quit,purely,because,their Ts and Cs disappear before their eyes,and pilots wish to express their disdain,by sharing their concerns to others,marks you,as completely unaware,or devoid of concern.The FOs have been shafted,and for the rest,each week brings a new surprise.The damage,is long term,IMHO,such "impressive" management decisons being made at this time in EK expansion,will I believe back fire.

You sound very similar to a very angry manager,who got fired here a few months ago,oh,and he had the bright idea of "pay per duty".

That was a real successful,management decision.

Yawn.Yawn,Yawn.Cerberus,excellent,summation,sir,thus far.

QB

crapflying

3rd Jan 2005, 02:56

Rainforest,

I guess you have not paid much atterntion to my previous posts. I came here at Emirates with 4 more years left to go and I now have 2 3/4 left to go because of age. I enjoy flying and I thought I would be getting a pretty good deal down here based on what I signed and on what I was told during the interview. EK management have changed everything we have signed without consultation and in our opinion without good cause. (Make more profits is not a good excuse, nor is it our fault that they decided to expand this quickly and in to areas they do not know thus underperforming. They got gready and over-ambitious, so if any one is to blame it is them and they should all be fired... if the owners are not happy. They talk the talk but with small pockets its seems. You see Emirates has a great advertisement group and with the hoola hoops we were made to jump during our interview you expect the same kind of high standards from them. Mind you the packaging is great but not the final product. Now I do not have to take this **** since I have money in the bank and a pension coming in, so in two months when my bond is up I am leaving.
You might say why not pack it in now and pay the remaining bond? The answer is that in Aviation it is always good to have a good name and complete the contracts you sign. You never know when it will come back to bite you. I have a few options back in Europe as TRE and I will be pursuing that when I leave here. For argument sake when I leave Emirates I will even post my staff number so that you can check that I was the genuine guy I said I was and not full of hot air as most of the EK management. I have learned in my life not only to talk the talk but to walk the walk. The more important thing though to worry about is not my predicament but rather were this airline is going and if it is worth coming down here and building your home and career on the EK shifting sand.....

SecurID

3rd Jan 2005, 08:15

Crapflying,

Whilst I agree with nearly everything that you have said, may I quote Einstein?

If success in life is A, then A=x+y+Z, where x is work, y is play and z is keeping your mouth shut.

Your posts are doing yourself no service whatsoever, even the more disillusioned amongst us cringe at reading your words, however true they may be.

And for those of you who think that this site is just populated and added to by a few individuals, then although correct, think why. Just ask around on the flight deck who is happy to be here.

Most senior Captains are either resigned to being here or are dusting off CVs, most FOs are either anxiously waiting for their command or are totally fed up having been lured here and now feel trapped due to financial commitments, it is not cheap setting up home here! All are afraid to air their views in public due to possible recriminations.

albatross2004

3rd Jan 2005, 08:48

How appropriate what Mr. John Major the ex British PM had once said "Put up or shut up ".:ok:

EK drivers take a hint.:cool:

donpizmeov

3rd Jan 2005, 09:16

Such a shame that you did not make it through the interview process Albatross.
At least it proves one thing at EK is/was working!
Don

dicksynormous

3rd Jan 2005, 10:03

Don why ruin a debate by using the old didnt get in chip argument. It isnt a tough process.

That arguement only presents two profiles. That the interview process is bollocks and just masks job for the boys elitist policy, or that you need to brag about how hard it is to get in and how great it is there to mask a underlying dissillusionment with your lot.If we want to be elitist we could for example only include people that have completed the UK ATPL . That would certainly disqualify a high proportion of ek drivers who cant work in europe due to the nature of their qualifications. So whats so special about pasing ek selection.

for the record i passed, didnt come, regret not being able to live in dubai but not for giving ek a miss.

SecurID

3rd Jan 2005, 11:00

alby,

Don't think for one minute that I agree with any of your posts either! Most of what you have written is merely to entice reaction and has no valid argument content whatsoever.

donpizmeov

3rd Jan 2005, 11:53

Dicksy,
Comment was made because I would hate for anyone to have to sit next to said gentleman for any period of time! Hence the comment I think the process works!!
Now calm down and run down the to local to show all your lovely UKATPL ...there's a good boy.
Don

dicksynormous

3rd Jan 2005, 14:57

Don ,

I dont feel the need to show anyone anything. elitism is the same whatever the context, that was my point. I dont judge people by their qualification.
hhowever if people like you feel the need to play such games lets put our cards on the table. The UK CAA invented hoop jumping, and jumping thru ek's or the caa hoops is not indicative of a persons ability to argue a point.

You sir, if you work for ek, would indicate that the selection you defend doesnt work, as do many on this thread if "sitting next to them" is a criteria.

I've been thru it and it was a doddle, not by any stretch of the imagination an indicator of a persons worth in this industry. Hand me down selection techniques inherited from the original expats from the uk.

now that was all off topic so i'll say no more on it, i'm off to the local with my 4 atpls

:ok:

disconnected

3rd Jan 2005, 17:29

Interesting thread. Most posts largely miss the point and are childish slanging matches. Little wonder pilots have never got a collective act together. Don’t you see - this sort of thing gives the management faith in the understanding that however bad they are at managing the pilots, the pilots will consistently behave like bluecollar workers, and manage themselves even worse. Little wonder they take more and more of the command responsibility away. If the aircraft were mine, and I witnessed some of these outbursts, I would too.

Realise too that divide and rule is the tool to implement cuts. As long as it is not to the collective body, all will be well and, despite moaning, the change will go through with minimal disruption. Notice too that if there is real outcry some details will be rethought and maybe even a consoling letter issued backing down a notch or too.

I suspect half the posts put on here are to wind up the pilots and distract the thread from the real issues. It’s a classic tactic and works every time. I bet they get a real buzz from it when they chuckle over the morning’s Pprune print outs.

The issue on T&C’s quite simply is this: They are getting worse.

I have been with EK for 10 years and there is absolutely no argument about eroding T&C’s. Whether it be salary (factoring inflation and dollar devaluation), allowances, credit hours, benefits, training pay, accommodation expenditure, medical benefits, insurance, and nearly every other facet of life. (If some one wants to do something useful, make a before and now list of everything anyone can think of –FACTS ONLY - and we can all add to it and see).

No one likes cuts and hence many of the posts. The argument that EK has some very good points is also true. Nearly every job has good points depending of personal preferences otherwise they would have no employees.

None the less the T&C’s are getting worse at EK (and also throughout the industry). It does sap morale and the will to go the extra mile, no doubt, but more than that it invokes a very strong emotion which I suspect drives most of the threads. That is FEAR.

How far will it go at EK? How far will it go throughout the industry? The answer to that is probably a lot further, except in rapidly expanding markets with skill shortfalls (look to China in the next 5 years). There are many reasons to this decay in the profession that one could write a thesis on but I shan’t go into that here.

The other issue is how fast it will erode. Again perhaps someone can plot some graphs of salaries at EK, their associated provident fund contributions, education allowances etc and discount them back to real present day dollars. Let’s see what year it arrives at half of what it was in 1990! It can be done but it is work that must be done without emotion.

Anecdotal evidence suggests erosion rate is fast, particularly recently, with the high oil prices. Fear drives rumours of further cuts in areas like utilities.

So if you plan to come to EK make sure you understand 2 things:

1) T&C’s will go down in many areas. That’s easy enough to grasp.
2) The rate of depreciation should be compared against the ship from which you jump to make a reasoned judgement as to when and if to jump. This is complex and not an exact science. Make sure you factor in the socio-economic factors of Dubai itself. (At current rates we will spend 4 hours a day in traffic!)

All the ships are burning – it’s just a question of when the flames reach your particular rat-hole....

dicksynormous

4th Jan 2005, 00:09

Squeak,squeak,squeak

Foreign Worker

4th Jan 2005, 05:23

Dear Mouse Dick, you stated that you had "for the record..passed" but didn't come.
The truth is you passed only one area of the selection process, but failed in several others - the most glaring failure being in the area of being UNable to work in a team environment.
Squeek, squeek.i'm off to the local with my 4 atplsYou and your 4 atpl's for company......says it all, really, doesn't it.
Cheers!

Shake

4th Jan 2005, 08:52

Disconnected:

Agreed on all your points. The problem with respect to unity remains that pilots generally are difficult to unite. EK pilots especially, me included, are ideal fodder for the management in the sense that we are culturally diverse (60+ nationalities), differ in our aspirations both social & economic and have no cohesive structure like a pilot council or union to foster any unity vital for any positive change to take place. It is a fait acccompli; easily divided and therefore ruled, leaving the only real option of leaving (WK mount up) which once you are here is not an easy option and they know it.

The very least we should all expect from the company is for the terms and conditions that we SIGNED for on joining are honoured and that our pay keeps pace with inflation. This is not the case. Ts & Cs have changed without our consent and pay has fallen way behind any index we could compare it with. And this at a time when EK proports to be making a profit. Other changes are on the way which will further erode the situation which is already dire. It is difficult to see how the situation will improve until large numbers do decide to leave which benefits niether side.

At a time when all hands are needed on deck to see a remarkably ambitious expansion take place EK are undermining the very core personnel (ground & airside) who are needed to ensure that it is achieved safely and efficiently...time will ultimately tell but I fear it will prove to be short term gain for long term pain.

rainforest

4th Jan 2005, 14:13

Disconnected,
A very good post indeed. There's no secret that we all have a lot of issues here in the desert, but we have to keep emotions aside and stick to the facts. Ironically, some people who posted here have started sounding like those in CX after the 49ers were shown the door." Don't come here but I'll be happy to take my command and I will apply to be an instructor at the same time as well". we all have heard that before. The fact is, the Ts + Cs will keep going down. Two guys leaving this month, but other airlines probably have more than that.
Post the true facts for the wannababes, no exaggeration, and let them decide cos' we all have come from different circumstances. But to suggest the the Tsunami will be a lucky thing for EK cos people from the South East pool will come in droves is somewhat reflective of one's .........( yes! I am reffering to you crappie !). However, your last post was more of what I think of you....have you been drinking again ?? My two and the half cents worth. Feel free to disagree, we are all entitled to it.

dicksynormous

4th Jan 2005, 15:09

Foreign Worker,

Ah the joys of sarcasm being lost on an up themselves pilot on this board . You guys are the best, makes my standby's (paid) even more fun than they are. Not quite sure what you mean by you reference to the selection process tho, been on the camel piss agin?

I love team work, its just that i dont think ek is one. Expat societies tend to bring the worst out of people , disguised by a shallow veneer of friendliness. surely the proof is in the plethora of (increasing) whinging on these boards.

Now if you dont mind i'm off to play house with a colleague of dubious morals.

crapflying

5th Jan 2005, 03:39

Hey Rainforest,

It is normal to have different views and ideas on issues as we come from different background and experience groups, and probably different age groups.
I do believe though that you are missing the point of my views. I am not on this forum to vent my fustration because I have nothing else to do, nor am I here to try to educate Emirates wanabies so that they do not come.
I call things the way they are since in my age I do not need to be politicaly correct. I see EK for what it is and not for what it says it is. I see management trends based on what I have seen in other airlines around the world throughout my career.
Pilots have taken unpaid leave and have gone to airlines around the world for short term contracts from my previous airline and when they have come back we have discussed the issues concerning those airlines, and I tell you they said the same things that are happening now at EK.
I fly with different FOs every day and not one guy that I have flown with is optimistic, and most of them want to leave EK at some point. I do not hear any of them saying that they want to stay here for the long term. Now that is a sign of company moral at present, and I am sure that if I had been here a few years back things would have been different all together.
The airline belongs to its owners, but it also belongs to the employees too. It is the employees that interact with the customers, it is the employees that make the mood in the work place, and it is the employees that put up with what management sends down. You will tell me that you cannot fight here and that you cannot unite here at EK. You are probably right, but you must also look then at the reality of things. T&Cs will drop until the point were they cannot find more drivers, and the daily conversation on the Flight deck will be how good things were and how bad things are today. In the end you will be tired of all this negative atmosphere and if you do stay because you have no viable options then you will look back at your career and see a waste of time.
Energy is being wasted on being pissed off, and being pesimistic. In my view it should be spent on finding a way to get everyone on the same frame of mind, and that is to fight back for your T&Cs, or accept the fact that it is just another job and get on with your lives outside EK and do not pay attention to Emirates.
You might bash me for my blant comments, or you can say that I am drunk when I post, but you cannot say that what I post is untrue or without good intent....
R

Seaton Approach

5th Jan 2005, 07:24

To my EK aviating colleagues,

Take this as you will, I assure you, no malice intended; this is how it is from one of your colleagues on the ground - just an alternative viewpoint to keep things in perspective.

I speak for myself, but I know my words will be echoed by many an Ops Controller, Crew Controller, Flight Dispatcher, Airport Ops guys, Cargo team, Res team, Engg team, etc. etc. who are out here and not fortunate enough to be on a 'Management' package:

At best we earn an average salary of 12-13k Dhs per month ALL-IN. Our rent and utilities all have to come out of that; average price of a small two-bed villa these days is 4-5k per month. Most of us run vehicles (be they rather small to minimise costs). I know that most of us have Bank Loans set up out here to cover the cost of starting a life here - note. We get zero furniture allowance too.

Healthcare - find a suitable clinic / hospital, pay in advance and EK will re-imburse you most of the cost. No such luxuries as EK-Clinic.

Yes we are eligible for Profit Share (IF profit is made) and yes, we are eligible for Business Class travel - IF we can afford the thousand-odd dirhams it now costs to fly return to, for example, the UK.

And NO Provident fund eligibility. Oh, I didn't mention schooling fees, or lack-of either. Or the fact that we too suffer from the crippling exchange rate whenever we take money home - that's assuming we have any left to take home.

So what options do we have:

Leave EK....? Can't. The average Ops Mgr in the UK earns LESS than we earn here. Maybe a move to somewhere like EY....? Possibly, but for the same reasons that most of you haven't flocked there, most of us are unsure too.

Await promotion to the Management Grade we deserve.....? Ain't gonna happen. We just keep getting shafted. Not to mention the fact that we are staring down the barrel of Nationalisation too.

All in all, it's pretty bleak for us too. By all means keep posting your posts about loss of Credit pay, Productivity Pay, Utilities, etc. All I ask is.......

Just spare a thought for the professional, dedicated, hard-working guys & gals on the ground who you interact with on a daily basis.

Happy New Year to you all,
SA.

Believe Brother

5th Jan 2005, 07:53

crapflying

You may call a spade a spade at times, which some don't like to hear, but your experience certainly shows through. I believe you have called it correctly, and good on you for making the decision you have. I hope to be following soon, and it more than likely will be out of aviation altogether. Another 25 years or so of slashes to T & C's - I don't want to be part of that. And I still laugh whenever anyone mentions the impending pilot shortage. It hasn't happened in the last 20 years I have listened to people talk about it.

seaton approach

I understand where you come from. I think most of my colleagues respect the job you do, and I hope you are treated as such. I just hope you really enjoy your role in commercial aviation, because the T & C's right now may be the best they ever are in your career - sounds pessimistic, but I don't believe we have reached the bottom of the trough yet.

White Knight

5th Jan 2005, 08:21

Millerscourt - sorry old chap, never been near a council estate in my life:{
For someone who professes to not be interested in EK methinks you spend too much time here on this forum, along with your chum "littledicksy".

Oh yes, my dog, cat,wife, kids and myself still like living here in Dubai - SHOCKING!!!!!! Just because there are plenty of issues at EK right now doesn't mean that suddenly Dubai is a crap place to live. Unfortunately MC you seem to tie the two together, as do many people.:confused: :confused:

dicksynormous

5th Jan 2005, 09:46

White knight,

This is the most fun you can have on this website, a never ending stream of fish nibbling away. Wouldnt miss it for the world. Little dicksy, now that is an affectation , are you flirting with me.?

For once we may agree for I too am happy that you enjoy staying in Dubai, long may it be so, you cheeky boy:O

SandIgger

6th Jan 2005, 08:21

Seaton Approach not much sympathy for you here on a pilots' whinge-site.

If you see yourself as so much worse off, you should do exactly what many many others have: Save your dough, go to a flying school and get a licence. Then go work your arse off in some **** jobs some place before cracking the "big-time". Eventually, after many years, you will have the experience and qualifications to get a job at Emirates although just what the T&Cs will be then is anyone's guess.

Anyone can do it if he really wants to instead of lament others being "better off" and many HAVE.

Apart from the Emirates career, even plenty of flight attendants have done this, having seen how much better off (???) the drivers supposedly are.

Meanwhile whining on a pilots' website about your own situation and how we should be more appreciative doesn't earn you any points from me (or most others I suspect).

White Knight

6th Jan 2005, 09:34

dicksy - unless you're a pretty girl I'm most certainly NOT flirting with you:ok:

By the way, and just out of interest, what is the really boring airline (with the really boring forum) that you work for?

Seaton Approach - wrong forum matey! Get yourself an ATPL as Sandigger says and you might do a little (only a little these days) better than you are now;)

Seaton Approach

6th Jan 2005, 10:05

SandIgger

Why do you presume that I should want to go and become a pilot to 'crack' the big-time. WRONG.

And did I mention anything about wanting sympathy or appreciation.....? NEGATORY.

Most of you that know us on the ground both professionally and personally will agree that we have long-since secured the respect and faith of the EK pilot workforce, without which YOU guys would find it a lot harder to do the jobs you do.

And most of you (at least those that are capable of accepting an alternative point of view from one of your ground-based colleagues) will no doubt read my earlier post and take it at the value it was intended - FOR INFO, and as such, will have no problem whatsoever in me chucking in my six-penneth-worth on YOUR precious 'whinge-site'.

Get back to what you do best - whinging. I shall leave you in peace.

Believe Brother,

Appreciate your comments - yes indeed. The bulk of us do really enjoy our role in commercial aviation, probably largely because of the good working relationship we have with you guys.

We shall weather the storm, and get our big breaks down here on Terra Firma - may not be with EK, but we'll get them.

ATB,
SA.

SecurID

6th Jan 2005, 15:47

My God, now they really have succeeded in dividing and conquering us, haven't they?

fractional

7th Jan 2005, 07:01

It sucks to read the reports from the almighty crystal made individuals (colleagues ???). We all need each other to accomplish any task in Aviation. Most will agree genuinely.
Seaton Approach just tried to "inform" you what he GETS. It may NOT be the proper Forum for some to spell it out, but it does not say anywhere that the Rest of the World & Non-English Language Forum, Middle East is just for pilots...
Ts & Cs is an issue we all keep close to our chests, and I agree we should debate these issues openly BUT RESPECTFULLY with own colleagues from the front seats to others working elsewhere. We all count... whether we like it or not.
Keep the focus on the Ts & Cs. They affect everyone sooner or later. When someone (you think is NOT a pilot) places a post, pls STOP descriminating and reply focussed on SUBJECT only. THANK YOU !!!Shifting Sands of EK Terms & Conditions

Bundanoon

7th Jan 2005, 11:10

Well said Seaton Approach.

It was a pleasure working with you along with many of the EK pilot work force who were a great bunch both professionally and socially.

The minority, such as SandIgger can crawl back into the sandpit
you appeared from.

I with you all luck in your quest for improved T & Cs.

Cheers, Bundanoon :ok:

Seaton Approach

7th Jan 2005, 12:04

Cheers Bundanoon,

Good to hear from you mate.

Put simply:

Forum - Middle East
Topic - Shifting Sands of EK Terms and Conditions

Where's the word P I L O T in all of that.....?

From where I'm sitting we land-lubbers have every right to chuck in our say on this non-pilot-copyrighted, non-pilot-specific topic.

Blue Boy was going to chip in with his say too, but due to the fact that he got p*ssed-up and lost his wallet in the back of one of DXB Transport's charriots, the likes of SandIgger will be spared.

Up the Ops Legends.

SandIgger

7th Jan 2005, 16:55

Ok seaton, so you list your complaints about:being “…not fortunate enough to be on a 'Management' package”
At best…an average salary of 12-13k Dhs per month ALL-IN.
Our rent and utilities all have to come out of that;
Bank Loans set up out here to cover the cost of starting a life here - note.
We get zero furniture allowance too.
No such luxuries as EK-Clinic.
NO Provident fund eligibility.
Oh, I didn't mention schooling fees, or lack-of either.
We too suffer from the crippling exchange rate
Assuming we have any left to take home.
Await promotion to the Management Grade we deserve.....?
We just keep getting shafted. And say:All in all, it's pretty bleak for us too. By all means keep posting your posts about loss of Credit pay, Productivity Pay, Utilities, etc. All I ask is....... Just spare a thought for the professional, dedicated, hard-working guys & gals on the ground who you interact with on a daily basis. …then tell us you don’t want sympathy. Ok so why add in your “six-penneth-worth”? Thanks for giving us the "ok" to continue posting and whinging and there's nothing wrong with you complaining too but if the intention was (and it sounds that way) to take a cheap shot or shame us all into talking about the weather instead of our TCs then you’re barking up the wrong tree. Why can’t you understand this concept?

“…not fortunate enough to be on a 'Management' package”... sounds like a cheap shot to me but I could be wrong, I guess, and if I am then, ok and sorry, your own dissatisfaction is noted. Thanks for adding your “six-penneth-worth”, whatever that amounts to and I’m sure no one takes any joy in reading about your woes. But re-read it and you might note a shade of irritation in your request that we all take a moment from discussing (whinging about, if you like) our own situation and spare a thought for you.

Maybe we should start a separate thread or even forum where we can all hold two minutes cyber-silence for ALL the other members of the team we’ve thoughtlessly ignored in our selfishness. Thank you, seaton, for reminding us all that we should think of others when we discuss (whinge about) our own selfish positions.

Seriously, start a thread on your side of the tale and you may even find others from your area of the operation have similar or other feelings on the matter.Why do you presume that I should want to go and become a pilot to 'crack' the big-time.Well I don’t presume that at all.

It’s just that from time to time, I hear people whine about “how good” pilots have got it and my standard reply is, “go get a licence yourself.” Many others have done it, it isn't hard. Not interested, generally. They’d rather just whine and complain to or about us. Sounds familiar… And did I mention anything about wanting sympathy or appreciation.....? Yes see above.Topic - Shifting Sands of EK Terms and Conditions where's... P I L O T in that?Well it tends to be by and about pilots and since the opening post also mentioned A310 TCIs or TCEs or whatever I think it's safe to say he wasn't complaining about the fate of the baggage handlers, no disrespect to them, especially as you already pointed out, since we couldn't do our own jobs without them, bless their souls!! Most of you that know us on the ground both professionally and personally will agree that we have long-since secured the respect and faith of the EK pilot workforce, without which YOU guys would find it a lot harder to do the jobs you do.Ah yes, the old “if it weren’t for us you wouldn’t be able to… blah blah blah…” Look, no one disputes either of the above FACTS you mentioned so please relax, but by the same token, what would you be doing without aircraft to think about? See? It works both ways but do we harp on about it? No, we’re just trying to whinge about our own TCs and now this has happened. Please don't start a pissing contest.I shall leave you in peace.That didn’t last long!

Yes you guys in Ops are legends, and largely unsung legends at that. We will all have beers one day and laugh about this. Tell "there I was tales", etc. Even Bundanoon, sounds like he’s a legend even if he IS a bit confused about his sly dig. Hey you're not BOTH of those IDs are you???

I look forward to hearing Blue Boy’s flustered complaints about selfish (and lazy???) pilots, also! It’ll give me a laugh, I’m sure. When he finds his wallet… Maybe he dropped it in Cyclone.

Now where were we???

4HolerPoler

7th Jan 2005, 21:54

Post of the Week Award to SandIgger - beautiful prose, great debating. This thread is the best that I can remember - you guys are great.

Well what are you waiting for? Get on with it.

4HP

Seaton Approach

8th Jan 2005, 08:49

Sandy

The likes of Bundanoon and myself (and many others) have for a long time enjoyed a really great relationship with the majority of the EK drivers both at work and socially - AND LONG MAY IT LAST.

So you guys are not happy with your T's and C's. Well guess what - neither are we! Common trend there, but that really IS a whole 'nother topic.

The bulk of this particular topic has, up till now, been contributed to by the pilots. But believe me, there is a vast multitude of other professionals from various fields within (and out of) the aviation industry who read your posts and formulate their own opinions.

We all have a right to contribute if we think that you need a wake-up call coz you're moaning. The fact that that there's a nice, shiny silver Audi limo outside your villa in the morning to deliver you to work, or because you get paid to come in on a day off to work and we don't, does not make me envious or jealous, but it DOES make me think.... Well hey guys, it ain't really all that bad, well is it?

Last point, perhaps there WAS a shade of irritation in my initial post on this topic, and perhaps that irritation is vented more at the EK Mgmt on the ground that influence our T's and C's and shape our future here at EK, rather than you guys. But hey, nobody asked for you to over-react with your rather 'blinkered' reply to my initial post.

Take the opinion like we take yours, and let's keep downing those Golden Ones down the boozer - ASSUMING you are one of the majority which I refer to in my first paragraph above, and not the MINority.

crapflying

9th Jan 2005, 03:43

Seaton Approach,

Comparing T&Cs of pilots with T&Cs of other worker groups is not an accurate way of doing things. I am not going to get into who does a more difficult, or a more important job, but rather say that you can only compare your T&Cs with the industry average, and with the T&Cs you were getting last year here at EK or the years before that. The fact that we get a villa or a pickup service from home is irelevant to the topic of t&C errosion. There are other people in Dubai working in other fields getting more money than us, and of course there are others getting less. I do not compare my salary against doctors or petroleum engineers or managers or anyone else. Every ones job is an important one, and we all made our choices about our profession long time ago. This is not a thread for career development or career choices. It is a thread about what the company is doing to our contractualy signed T&Cs and what is the industry as a whole offering in our field.
The fact the company is picking us up is in their benefet by the way, because they get another hour out of us for free and not logged against duty time, so what ever cost they have realy does not match the benefits. They do know that should we be required to come in to work at one hour before departure, that is exactly what people would do thus not enought time to get the pre-flight done and board the aircraft one hour before departure...
By the way I have only met nice people on the ground staff here at EK. Great to work with you guys, and I am sure you also feel the cost cuting end erosion of T&Cs but you must also try to find the solutions within your group of workers...

777 Man

10th Jan 2005, 06:08

It's a shame that we have now turned on each other. Seaton Approach, I think that I speak for most of the drivers when I say that your efforts are appreciated. That your T's and C's have also been deteriorating is no real surprise when we work for a company that has such disdain for the line employees that are actually out there getting the work done. I would be interested if the erosion has occurred in the area of benefits and allowances (as have ours) and if the company has overtly attacked your actual pay (as the company has with the pilots and trainers with their recent "neutral cost pay adjustment").

I do think that finding out about some of our colleagues situations does lend some perspective - both inside and outside of the company. What it has done for me is realize that as bad as it's gotten, it will probably get much worse. The company is on a draconian cost cutting campaign with very little consideration of the consequences of some of their moves and one need only look at Singapore and the erosion of their package over the last few years to see the potential of just what our package could end up as. With the competitor down the road and their bottomless pockets, I see the pressure on EK continuing, resulting in even more "cost cutting" with no end in sight. As Emirates (and the rest of the industry) have shown, the well of first resort is the employees and their pay and with no ability to balance managements heavy handedness, we are at the start of a long and very painful journey. If we start turning on each other though, it will just make it easier for the vultures to pick our bones.