CAP 371 Amendments - website address for the consultation document.

[Wig Wag]

The proposed amendments by the CAA to CAP 371 can be viewed (under the banner 'Whats New') at:
http://www.chirp.co.uk/

Operators have until 30 November 2001 to register objections. These may include details of costs incurred due to any requirement to employ extra crews to comply with the amendments.

Also of interest is a recent DERA research document 'A study of Aircrew Fatigue in Short Haul Multi-Sector Operations.' Ref DERA/CHS/PPD/CR000394

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]

[shakespeare]

Thank you for that WW. Very informative!

[sky9]

Also available on SRG site http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/com/com_information.asp?page=FODCOM_Index.htm

[Chalky]

I may be being extremely dim, but I couldn't find a "What's New" Banner on the CHIRP page

[Wig Wag]

Chalky:

The "What's New" banner dated 9 August leads you to the document.

[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]

[Chalky]

Wig Wag

I finally found the CAP 371 link by clicking on "Library".

Was the DERA study mentioned on CHIRP or somewhere else?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I believe the CAA are being rather selective in the use of studies such as the DERA STUDY on multi sector short haul ops.
BA did a study with them on a 2 crew 777 op to MIA and a 3 crew classic op. Result - no difference in fatigue levels with 3 crew to 2 crew. Result - nothing done.

That makes me so angry :mad: :mad: :mad:

[packsonflite]

Thank God for that! The CAA is finally recognising that consecutive early starts really do cause fatigue.

The original early start/late finish proposals in the current edition of CAP 371, were very good. However. following pressure from the operators, the caveats such as hotac within 15 minutes, and the 9 hours maximum on 5 consecutive duties effectively gutted the original document.

It will be intersting to see what changes the operator manage to force onto this one.

:( :(

[Caractacus]

This is very sound stuff from the CAA. A problem has been perceived with fatigue in short haul carriers, a scientific study carried out and changes to the regulations recommended. The tone of the FODCOM is interesting. It sounds like Flight Ops are actually quite annoyed at the working practices of (some) airlines and have decided to put their foot down.

I would give my eye teeth to be a fly on the wall of airline boardrooms when this document hits the desk. It will annoy them considerably. Solicitations to the CAA will doubtless plead the costs of finding and employing more pilots due to the limits proposed on early starts.

This is where it gets interesting. Will the CAA now stand up to persuasive and influential people seeking to reduce the impact of this latest FODCOM? I would hope that, at the very most, no more than an extension of the period proposed for introduction of the new CAP is allowed.

BTW Which airlines took part in the DERA study and where can I get a copy of the report?

[excrewingbod]

Caractacus,

The document may annoy them, but there isn't a lot the airlines can do about it, other than apply for a variation.

I was really surprised that the CAA admitted they were wrong on the implementation of the 'week'.

At least its a step in the right direction.

PS Has anyone heard of or seen the EU FTL scheme?? Looks like the EU carried out their threat to pull the FTL scheme from the JAA.

[sky9]

The people who really suffer on early starts are the Cabin Staff. Ours check in 90 minutes ahead of scheduled departure yet use the same start time us the FD for max hours.

Add on to that the time that it takes for a young lady to get her hair washed and curled, put her "face" on and unlike me they get up at least 2 hrs before check-in.

On the basis of a 0700 hr local departure they get up at 0330 hrs, yet can do 13.15 hrs.

Do that on three days and anyone would be fatigued.

Something wrong somewhere> :confused:

Still work to do Mr Thomas.

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: sky9 ]

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Caractacus

The impact of the proposed changes will affect short haul scheduled carriers most as they are the ones most likely to operate consecutive earlys.The report by the way was done by KLM UK
The UK Airlines took the hit when CAP371 was introduced so its just another restriction which our EU colleagues will laugh at....
Hopefully roll on EU FTL to put it back on a level playing field, or somewhere better than today.
The movement from "fixed" to rolling weeks will hurt the occasional charter carrier.

One of the changes was that Crews night stopping in the Continent will keep their max allowable fdp based on UK local time for the first night as the crews don't have time to re-acclimatise and hotac sleep is poor compared to home. However, why just earlys.

2 possible examples.

1. Crew on min rest between night flights
(plenty of those on freighters day stopping in Europe). Most of these stops are less than 12 hours so even less time to re-acclimatise.

2. Even more debatable. Crews to USA on a late flight from UK so crews take rest in local time and arrive USA when its dark, again min min rest.Why not-acclimatised?
Crew should stay acclimatised to UK time??

The CAA need to think thru the implications of one change.

[machone]

All the of above is fair comment. But just think about these share options and corporate jets flying about in the same airspace with crews that have been on the move since 0430 local for two/three sectors of short hops but stiil do not finish till late the up ealry for next day delays till late. "No fatigue" they have sat about all day,to fly 20 , 30 45 mins only one sector???? :cool: :cool:

[Son Of Piltdown]

Mr Angry from Purley:

>>The report by the way was done by KLM UK <<

DERA also did a report on bmi British Midland last Autumn.

CAP 371 is designed to stop the general public being killed by fatigued pilots crashing airliners. These amendments are timely and reflect concerns about the working pratices of (some) short haul carriers.