Asking for start up...

[TIMTS]

I fly helicopters out of an international airport, and listening to tower (who is actually tower/ground/clearance delivery all rolled into one) I hear all these big guys ask for permission to start the engines. (for me anything is big, except the Islanders)

Why do you have to get permission? Is it to make sure nothing is going to get sucked in or blown away...would tower know?

Or is it so that you will not sit on the ground burning to much fuel before taxi?

And one more...a lot of times people are asking for their IFR clearance but get told to expect it while taxiing. Isn't this just adding to the workload and getting people to rush things? I know I would like to get everything set before I taxi, but helos might be different...being single pilot and all.

Timts

[Keygrip]

I was in a meeting with ATC last week at Scottsdale, Arizona, USA - amongst other things we discussed was the fact that the IFR departure clearance was issued by "parent" airfield Phoenix International - and that it was valid for just three minutes after being issued. Any longer than that - clearance cancelled. So, if the taxi and take-off looks as though it may take longer than the three minutes - the clearance is asked for, and issued to the aircraft, later rather than earlier.

I also remember, same airfield, during the summer, when some aircraft called for start they were advised that there was a minimum 45 minute delay to their departure clearance - so no point in starting and burning the fuel.

[BOAC]

Tim - at busy airports, start is 'controlled' by ATC who have the 'big picture' on aircraft movements. As keygrip has said, they may know of significant delays due to high departure or arrival rates and will try to sequence ground movements accordingly, so engines are not running too long. It also acts as a 'check' for the a/c AND ATC that all is in place - ie departure slot, ATC clearance received or on its way from the centre. At places where 'push-back' is used, they will also sequence this to fit with departure flow and taxyway bottlenecks etc. I expect a controller will answer with other esoteric procedures that have to happen (like fitting in cups of tea:D )

ATC clearance depends on how 'big' the airport is and whether there is a separate delivery frequency/controller. You are right, it is not conducive to safety to receive the clearance while taxying, especially with the multitude of checks, door procedures, cabin preparation and company call to get final load figures etc etc, but it is a fact of life. It becomes even more interesting when operating single pilot!

[CAP670]

people are asking for their IFR clearance but get told to expect it while taxiing. Isn't this just adding to the workload and getting people to rush things?

TIMTS - don't know where this practice applies but you're absolutely correct and in fact, the ongoing Eurocontrol initiative on Runway Incursions in which countries such as Germany, UK, Eire, France, Netherlands, Spain, etc., etc., are participants actively discourages the passing of ATC clearances whilst taxiing, recommends 'best practice' as passing this before the taxi phase, and any late amendment only whilst the aircraft is stationary e.g at the holding point or is on the runway and able (but not yet cleared) to depart.

I can't speak for any currently similar initiatives in the US (although the FAA actually began one sometime before the Europeans) but the comments from Keygrip suggest that this is at least one US location where such 'best practice' just isn't being followed.

The question of issuing start-up clearance at larger busier airports has been amply answered by BOAC.

However, remember that if you also operate out of small 'GA' airfields, rotors start clearance may be required from ATC (in the UK that's controllers or FISOs) due to parachuting activities on the airfield and a requirement to operate 'engines & rotors off' during any actual drops.

Hope this is helpful background info.

:cool:

[Seat1APlease]

A further twist is that the departure clearance has to be programmed into the FMC (nav computer) and cross checked by both pilots so its better done on the stand before taxying rather than using the "double head down display" with no-one keeping a good lookout during the taxy.

Whilst it is usually pre-loaded it still needs confirmation when the clearance arrives.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

An important point is that the clearance to start from ATC is based purely upon traffic, as BOAC suggests, and does not relieve the crew from ensuring that it is safe to start engines. In the UK we used to say "Cleared to start" but the inevitable ground incident occurred so now I believe that the phrase "Start approved" is used instead.

Unfortunately, BOAC, cuppas are prohibited in most ops rooms - telecomms people get strangely irate when a cup of steaming coffee falls down into their resistors and valves! Ah for the good old days when the the shout of "trolley" from the tea lady echoed round the Approach Room, which rapidly emptied!

[ETOPS]

In most of the far flung destinations I operate to it is standard practice to receive your ATC clearance whilst taxying for departure. The reason, I believe, is that the tower only put in their request to the area control after your call for start. Thus by the time the reply with your clearance gets to the tower controller you are well on the way to the runway.

The most extreme case we get is at V C Bird (ANU) where you get your Oceanic clearance while backtracking the active!

[M.85]

read your airport plates?most of the times they will tell you when to ask for push or start ,or both at same time..and some even the proper phraseology to use..ie:im Amsterdam Shipol.>ready to start means doors are closed,air bridge retracted....
And if your competitor is about to push before you,say ready to push before you get your first morning coffee;-)

M.85

[Approaching Minimums]

JAR determines that request for startup is necessary if you are operating turboprop or jet aircraft. So aircrafts with piston engines doesn't need permission for startup. However, there might be different rules for each airport but those you can easily find from the AIP.

Best Regards,
Approaching Minimums

[captain marvellous]

The latest I ever got take-off clearance was 15 miles away from the airport... but that was ops normal at PLCH. :}

Never did get cleared for start or an enroute clearance... oh well, what a shame! :ok:

The plane didn't seem to know the difference - it flew just the same.

[DVR6K]

Remember a few years ago in the UK VFR flight guide (so presumably directed at piston engined a/c) it said you had to ask for start at Plymouth of all places. Went down there, parked backed on to some grass and decided not to fanny around with the battery running and started anyway. No one seemed the slightest bit bothered at all!

So why bother printing it????!?!?!?!

[rotatrim]

Our Flying Club held a fly-in to the local military airfield - five C152s and a PA28. On arrival, we were marshalled individually onto our parking stands on a vast empty expanse of concrete, each aircraft had been allocated several marshallers and several firemen (complete with several extinguishers and various other bits of kit).

In the pre-departure briefing, we were instructed to call for start up...........seems naff in a C152. Standard military procedures for visiting aircraft apparently.

During my IR training, the request for start up was the cue for the Tower to chase the clearance from the neighbouring ATS Unit. Clearance was generally given at the Hold, but if offered during taxying or when I was in the middle of power checks, I asked the ATCO to standby - not always possible/advisable in the real world of commercial operations and/or at busy international airports. However, I wouldn't hesitate if I was single pilot in a helicopter.

[Sky Wave]

Request to start is also required at Filton. I forgot and the nice controller advised me of my error :-(

[MadsDad]

Rotatrim. Someone I know had the same experience at Lyneham, landed there in a C152. Come departure he had marshals and fire-crew and after geting permission to start the marshaller gave the indication for 'start no. 1'. As he said "I've only GOT one".

(Also when he landed they sent a 'follow me' for him. Apparently this was going so fast that he took off for a short while whilst following it down the runway. He said Hercs must taxy faster).