CTOT, is this how YOU read the rules??

[Hung start]

Hello ATCO´s around the world. Here´s what I just don´t get:

I´m flying Europe, based in Scandinavia. Lately, pilots at my company have become increasingly frustrated with the way ATC in Scandiland, especially Gothenburg, Oslo and Copenhagen, administrate the -5/+10 min. on the CTOT`s that we receive every day.

I´d like to know how you guys/gals look at it, since I never experience this kind of madness outside Scandiland.

Problem is: Say my CTOT is 10:00. I know full well that, that is MY CTOT. The -5/+10 is for ATC to juggle with. But several times now in CPH, we have been at holdingpoint ready to go, at 0950. NOTHING else at the airport was moving at this time.
09:55 and nothing heard, we politely tell the twr, that we are fully ready for take-off. "I know" is the answer. "Ehmmm it´s 0955, any chance we could go now, as we´re inside -5 of CTOT?"
"Nope, that -5/+10 is for MY use, to fit you into traffic, and since here´s absolutely NO traffic, I´ll keep you waiting till 10:00!!"
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif (Incidentally, on this occasion,as soon as we got airborne and switched to departure frequency, they gave us direct 300NM down the road, and keep high speed.... :rolleyes: 2 of the controllers in CPH administrate the rules this way, the others always let us go at -5, if it fits into the flow. And so do they, in my experience, everywhere else in Europe.

Another one, this from Gothenburg:
Aircraft from our company taxies out,CTOT still 10:00.(-5/+10) Arrives at holding point at 09:58 At 09:59 pilots observe a minor tech. problem, and tells twr. that they´ll have to stay at holding point for around 2 minutes, while running through some checklists. At 10:01, they notify the tower that they are ready to go. He then says,and I`m not kiddin´ ya´, that the CTOT ran out 1 min. ago, and they can return to gate and ask their company to request a new CTOT!!!

I have examples from Oslo as well, but I think that by now, you get the picture.


From heavy communication between our flight ops. dept and ATC in CPH, we have learned that the 2 controllers actually are the ones administering the rules the CORRECT way, and that we can forget about having it changed. This is THEIR BABY!!!!!

Now, I´ve always thought that the -5/+10 was a "window" inside which, Eurocontrol has accepted the aircraft in the air, and then it should be up to the controller to let that aircraft go at anytime inside that window, where he sees it fit.

But if the ATCO´s mentioned above are correct in their way of interpreting rules, that can surely not be the way that the rules were intended to be interpreted. Do these ATCO´s read the rules as the devil reads the bible, are the rules weak in their wording. Or are the rules laid out this way, for some reason that I, fellow pilots, environmental organisations, etc. etc. will never learn to understand???
Just imagine EVERY ATCO interpreting the rules this way. You´d have many airplanes holding, burning fuel and time, for 5 minutes at airports where nothing is happening, and inside a "window" where the big computer at Eurocontrol has actually accepted those aircraft!!

Please enlighten me!!

Rgds, Hung start!!!

[TheLizard]

Hung,
Right or wrong, this isn't the way I or any of my colleagues at my unit (UK) work with CTOTs.

Yes, the CTOT is for you eg CTOT 10:00 is when you should plan to be airborne. And yes, the -5/+10 is for my tactical purposes.

But...

If you are at the hold at 09:53 (CTOT -7), subject the traffic I'll tell you to line up and wait (not too quick - if you're moving, the self loading cargo is happy, right?). Then the name of the "game" is for you to be given taken clearance at such a time as to allow you to rotate at 1 second past the CTOT -5 tolerance! Tactical use? You bet - my tactics are always to get arrivals down ASAP and departures off the deck ASAP.

However, (this bit me yesterday) if you call me AT your CTOT, and say the doors are closing, request push & start, I will probably refuse. Why? Cos you aren't actually READY to push & start. That could add another 2,3 even 5 minutes. And how long would it NORMALLY take you to get to holding point <blah> at airport <blurb>? Another factor. Some companies seem to crawl to the hold even when they are tight on the CTOT - eventually the "rule of thumb" becomes "don't let XXX go for a tight CTOT, they don't normally make it" - yet another factor. The bottom line is that if you say you can do it, we let you go for it, and you don't make it, it becomes (to the passengers) that worn out, tired and weary (for us) excuse: "air traffic delay". (See further down)

In the situation yesterday, I let the 757 go for it, it crawled to the hold and wasn't even half way there before CTOT+10 expiry - even though he KNEW how tight it was going to be. Fortunately a new slot came in as he taxied which meant after a few more minutes I could launch him - at new CTOT-5!

Soap box time: I do wish you guys would explain "air traffic delay" by stating where the bottlenecks are, and that it isn't ATC at the departure airfield holding you up. Joe Public immediately blames ATC for any delay anyway. Delays are caused (normally) by aeroplanes. Too many of them. ATC doesn't put them in the sky - the airlines do that, aided and abetted by public demand.

Anyway, soapbox retracted (sorry about going off on one) - that's the Lizard's eye view of CTOTs - anyone else?

The Lizard
=========
Edited for clarity!!

[This message has been edited by TheLizard (edited 25 May 2001).]

[Hung start]

Thanks Lizard. How about coming to Scandinavia to work :) :)

The story about A/C calling "ready" when they´re not, and then snailing their way to the runway, is where I think that it is appropriate that you exercise your right to do what you want with the -5/+10.

But in the cases that I and some colleages have experienced, and ONLY here in Scandinavia, are cases where we were ready at CTOT -7, and NO TRAFFIC on airport, still they refused us to go at CTOT -5....!

I don´t know about others, but when we tell pax. about reason for delays, we say something along the lines of:
"Folks, as you can see, not much traffic here in CPH, but over France/Switzerland/Austria, too many airplanes have decided to be in the same area at the same time, bla. bla.",
or, "Folks weather at destination is such, that fewer airplanes can land than what normally lands in an hour, so to avoid doing circles over Madrid for twenty mins., we´re staying here until ATC at Madrid has room for us. Rest assured, that we are keeping our place in the que for Madrid!"

CTOT´s are in general, (I know, barring staff shortage etc.) not ATC´s fault, but the airlines own fault. When I check our computer in the crewroom, and see that my company has 10 departures, all scheduled for 10:30, I know not to blame you guys!!!

Anybody else??

[chiglet]

Hung,
As I have previously stated. When in the tower at EGCC/MAN I edit the Departure Slot Monitor,[DSM]. Due to adverse wx etc, the other day there were 5 pages on the DSM. We have 5 controllers and two assistants to ease you on your way. I don't like flak from aircrew/handlin agents et al, so "we aim to please".
If you are in MAN, give us a ring, and we will "try" to show you round

[OrsonCart]

Never read anything so daft.

I would give take off approval 30 sec prior to the start of the -5 min rule.

If your slot was 1000, I would clear you for take off at 0954 and 30 seconds (Assuming you are ready and all that).

I would NOT clear a departure for take off beyond 1010 within this scenario, nor would I offer taxi to a departure that could never make the 1010 airborne.

[Wheelybin]

I would clear you for take off at 0953 and 45 seconds . Thats 45 seconds to roll, airborne at 0954 and 30 seconds which is then rounded up to make an actual airborne time of 0955.
Beat that Orson!!!!

[Father Dougal]

Don't know what they're smoking in Scandiland but that's just ridiculous! How would they deal with two aircraft at the hold with the same slot - launch one and send the other back to stand?????????

You're quite right the -5/+10 is for ATC use and some pilots are known to abuse the system (ie, CTOT 1000 - three already at the hold and calling for start at 1004 "but we can be airborne by 1010") but this is clearly not the issue here. To deliberately hold an aircraft on the ground when their slot "window" is open goes totally against the principle of providing a "safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic". Plus it makes us look stupid!

Rant over.

[This message has been edited by Father Dougal (edited 26 May 2001).]

[Topcover]

From the above replies it seems that everyone applies the -5/+10 in much the same way to help the operator as much as possible.

The ATCOs in Scandiland don't like your company !!

Maybe the way to solve this is for a few pilot fam.visits to ATC and v.v.

If that doesn't work perhaps then a baseball bat....... :)

[Hung start]

Topcover, if they like our company or not, is for them to answer. But since without my company, half of them would be without airplanes to control...( we do, I guess 80% of traffic at CPH :) ) I´d think, that liking us or not is not the question. Also, in all other ways, these ATCO´s are great... it´s just that I think that they are way wrong, or at least illogical, on this one.

Fam. visits are done on a regular basis, and they do fam. flights with us. And we have a great coorporation with them.

But this one, they won´t give up.

Now, do any of you know, what the rules out of Eurocontrol actually say. Do these controllers have a point, that I and everybody else have missed.

[1261]

Hung Start,

Why don't you ask CFMU direct? Have a look at:

http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.be/infocenter/infocenter_fmd.htm

Perhaps you could post their answer here for us all to read.