Qf LAME OT bans

[The masked goatrider]

It's on. The announcement by Qf this week has angered the engineers all over and the lack of union support will do little to stop the latest actions.

After QF announced its reluctance to finalise EBA negotiations and the meeting held with ALAEA executive members this week regarding the implementation of the 'No Engineer' transits for B737NG and A330 aircraft to begin on February 1st, a very strange thing has happened.....LAME's are taking action.

All across the network Engineers have found that a home life is much more valuable to them than the overtime they have chosen to do in the past. QF management time and time again has called the bluff of the ALAEA, fully aware of the assn's faith in the 'good nature'of negotiations.

The members on the floor on the other hand have had quite enough, and save waiting for ALAEA direction to carry out any work bans/industrial action (perish the thought) have taken it upon themselves to stop going out of their way to help their managers look good.

At worst it can demonstrate to the managers the value of the overtime carried out by their minnions (us) and at best it may help our EBA negotiators by putting pressure on managers to get guys back to doing overtime and clearing the already backlogged work.

The actions of these members HAS NOT been sanctioned by the ALAEA due to the nature of industrial law in this day and age, so if asked members have a multitude of different reasons as to why they are unavailable. When asked 'this is NOT a coordinated effort' (which it isnt).

I take my hat off to the individuals doing this, and I would encourage others to follow suit. We are not only fighting for our EBA, we are fighting for our JOBS and the safety of the travelling public at large.

A little effort from everyone does go a long way. Just ask the boys a SDT.

[Capt Fathom]

And I don't blame them. I think all employees everywhere have had a gut-full of the so called 'cost cutting' era. In the long term, this will end up costing companies more then they bargained for!

[sport]

As long as the Airlines and Government don't consider bringing in Scab Yanks again!!!

[pullock]

I totally support the ban - LAME's are a potentially powerful group in the industry, and it's time we stopped getting trodden on - all we have to do is stick together, and that's the hard part because mostof us are too wrapped up in the job. It is that that the airlines use against us constantly to lower our pay and conditions.

[planemad2]

Good luck. :ok:

[fordran]

Just wondering why they make this announcement 1 week before Chrissy. OT bans will also be put in force at ADL for all it is worth. More important for us and every LAME is the "one defect per prefilght" theory. If every LAME writes up at least one defect per preflight the books will soon fill up with hold items. Work to rule and do not stop. It could save our jobs.

[Mr Qantas]

Typical loose liped rubbish from a few troublemakers intent on causing disruption to the enginering business. We need to move with the times and compete with other low cost operaters like Virgin and Jetstar. If we dont we wont survive.

Nowone nows about this OT ban so your only kidding yourselves and grangstanding on this respected forum. Go back to your holes and pretend the lames are behind you. Most lames are suportive of the changes and the ALAEA have welcomed the move. You cant start an industrial campain on this website. Contact the union office and speak to the senior officials or better still contact the union office and resign. We dont want you.:suspect:

[Mr.Buzzy]

What a laugh.... sure thing Mr.QANTAS, the industry needs more of you!.............NOT

bbbbbzzzzzbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbzbzbzz

[Sunfish]

"Typical loose liped rubbish from a few troublemakers intent on causing disruption to the enginering business. We need to move with the times and compete with other low cost operaters like Virgin and Jetstar. If we dont we wont survive."

Well Mr. Qantas, since the last time I looked, the direct operating costs of various aircraft types are pretty much fixed, why can't Qantas compete with low cost airlines like VB and Jetstar?

Might it have something to do with umpteen bloated layers of management and business practices modelled on United?

If you are going to lower your costs without compromising your safety "record" (although I hear from these forums that its not going to last), then might it not be wise to start with getting a competent board and CEO? Dixon's gratuitous slanging off at Hamilton Island residents is reason enough for his instant dismissal in my humble opinion.

To put it another way Mr. Qantas, what are YOU doing to lower Qantas's cost structure, including, if necessary, eliminating your own position?

[farqueue]

Spoert, they probably will not have to import septics. Have a look at the new LAME etc regs. Many of the jobs now done by LAMEs will be able to be done by AMS level people.

[sport]

Well, farqueue, aren't you a clever one. Of course the AME can do pretty much anything the LAME can, it's part of his training. No one would degrade the importance of an AME as your reply attempted to do to the LAME. The only reason the AME can't do the total package is the 'L' and with out that they can't do what a LAME does.

That is also why Qantas encourage all of their managers to stay current with their licenses because they realise the significants of the license. I am sure Mr Qantas would be one of these scabs who has forgotten his roots.

I know if this ever happens and I have a manager telling me it's O.K. to proceed, I will have to be dam well convinced he knows what he's talking about.

[Mr Qantas]

Keep geussing fools I am no Qantas Manager. As much as I love my job I wouldnt take that step. To much of a pay cut from my job. It takes an extremly dedicated individual to move into a Management role on call 24/7 and no bonus for the added hours spent on weekends and nights reveiwing email, answering calls etc...

On the subject of overtime bans I warn the younger players that every lame MUST work a resonable amount of OT. Go and read your award boys before you follow in the footsteps of the Mexican s**t stirers. You will be asked and you will be required to assist when we need you.

[The masked goatrider]

Good one Mr Q. Need some reasons not to stay back guys well here is just a few -


- I can't stay back I'm going out tonight
- I'm sorry I don't feel that well today
- This shift work has made me real tired
- I can't stay back for personal reasons
- I need to get back, the kids are home alone
- My wife has instructed me to cut back on the OT its effecting our relationship
- None of your fricken business
- I'm meeting with friends
- I don't like working for arrogant prigs like you


The list is endless.

[VTM]

Mr Qantas,
How is it you say you are an LAME, it appears you would have difficulty passing a grade one spelling test, stop making a fool of yourself idiot!


VTM

[Orville]

I can think of someone who can't spell and is a LAME and not a manager, but somewhere in between. He is definately not proffessional, nor does he respect those who are and therefore shuns their assistance during any negotiations.

[The masked goatrider]

Is his name Tim?

[Orville]

I make it a point of not divulging a persons true identity, masked goat rider.

[Ultralights]

i think Mr Q is a Uni entrant manager! no real experience, and uses the phrase "we need to move with the times" more times than i go to the toilet per day!

and the award does NOT specify you MUST do overtime by law! your employment agreement requires you to do 8 Hrs service per day.

[Pimp Daddy]

and the award does NOT specify you MUST do overtime by law! your employment agreement requires you to do 8 Hrs service per day.

However the IRC has ruled on the subject of overtime.

It has said that the employee may turn down overtime where it would result in an employee working "unreasonable hours".

It then says that each case is different but must take into account the wishes of both the employee and employer.

Don't think for a moment QF wouldn't be straight off to the IRC for a ruling.

[The masked goatrider]

The IRC can make any ruling it wants Daddy but if I can't come in to work on my day off, they can't force me to. I will have a genuine family commitment on any day they ask me. End of story.

[Orville]

Take the overtime out of a LAME's pay, reduce his shift penalties, remove the pride he once had in his work and make it more difficult to get travel benefits? Really what's the point of going on and continuing to work for an airline.

My brother makes more money driving trucks and he is home with his family on weekends and nights. He doesn't have the stress of training ongoing every year and the threats from management wanting to re-invent the wheel, only to find out that when it aint broke don't fix it.

When a manager comes up with an idea that is reflected in changes to past work practises, does he get paid a bonus and when that idea eventually fails, does he have to pay it back? Or is he the one that comes up with the next change looking for another bonus?

[fordran]

Hey Mr Qantas how does the no lame transit fit in with Vincents strategy map?

[pullock]

Mr Qantas,

You sound like a true believer. everything that management do is for the best in your mind. You appear to know that it's not about screwing staff to save costs even though there is waste in so many areas. You seem to know and understand that it's all about saving jobs and looking after the most important thing of all - the company. You seem to know that you need to compete with the likes of Jetstar which is supposedly cheaper than Qantas to run even though it is it's self part of Qantas and designed as a tool to make things happen jsut the way that you are talking.

let me tell you what else you know.

- You are sure that God is coming to save you - it's everyone else who is wrong

- You think the invasion of Iraq was justified and the WMD's are still out there

- Road safety campaigns aren't all about revenue - it's all about our own safety because the government has to take care of us since we can't do it ourselves

- Newspapers tell the truth

- The tooth fairy is real, and you just can't work out why Santa stopped coming when you were 18.

[sport]

AND THE DINGO DIDN'T REALLY DO IT

[Mr Qantas]

Ha Ha very funny my sides are spliting with laughter :}

So how are your little ot bans going. Between the 6 of you I bet the airline are shaking at there knees.

[tinpis]

shaking at there knees.


Dear me..THEIR

[The masked goatrider]

ALAEA President denounces overtime bans - A scathing email has been sent to the Melbourne Executive members demanding the week long overtime bans started at Melbourne Domestic Terminal end immediately. He wants all members reminded that the ALAEA will not represent any LAME disciplined by the airline for failing to work a reasonable amount of OT. He also states - This stupidity will ruin the working relationship built up with the airline over the last decade. Instead the ALAEA wishes to ramp up the Jetsafe campaign that was awarded "Campaign of the Year" by the Associations own Secretary. No meetings planned with members though. :uhoh:

Other Sates come on board - All major ports have ignored the Presidents message and commenced their own bans. The organisers of the action have vowed to continue untill the airline gives an ongoing commitment to the continuance of LAME prefights and Certification. LAMEs in Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth have now joined in with the International sections soon to follow.:ok:

[planemad2]

Good luck to you LAMEs. :ok:

Surely at least at this time of year, most people want to spend as much time as possible with their Families, so I would think a reasonable amount of overtime would be ZERO. ;)

[farqueue]

Sport, I wrote AMS, not AME. Go look at the new rules CASA is proposing.

[sport]

farqueue,

I wish to apoligise, for misrepresenting what you said.

But on what you said of the AMS they can now do what the LAME does, with the exception of being in 20 places at the same time. Good luck to the employers if they want to take on the members.

NOTE I DIDN"T SAY THE UNION BECAUSE THEY HAVE PROBABLY ALREADY SIGNED OFF ON ANY REFORMS THAT MAY REDUCE LAMES

[pullock]

The ALAEA has lost the plot - they are doing NOTHING to protect their members from the current onslaught on pay and conditions.

I would like to have the union know that there is massive dissatisfaction amongst those of us who remain members, and most of us only stay on board for the insurance.

Looking to the future, I don't see the ALAEA as viable - it's going to disappear with its head up its own bum unless it grows a spine and stands up for its members, rather than its members employers :yuk: :yuk:

[blubak]

so mr qantas..u seem to know everything!!!!....very clever fellow indeed!!.why dont u tell the rest of OUR association members what discussions have taken place about no lame transits for 737ng and a330.if u say its not going to happen...u must have information that should be shared with all association members,not just the chosen few!!..AGAIN...we all pay the same fees. we await ur response!!

[fordran]

Is it true that a number of aircraft are now unservicable in Mel with no lames available to fix them? True or not it was welcome news to the Adl lames who have fully supported the bans. We have also heard that senior Qf managers met today to discuss the situation. Can you please provide us with some feedback from that meeting Mr Q.

[planemad2]

Mr Qantas is probably enjoying a long weekend. ;)

Don't suppose he has to do overtime as he expects of others, or work Holidays. :rolleyes:

[Kaptin M]

Mr Qantas is probably enjoying a long weekend Yep, he and all the rest of them.
Doesn't it indicate there's something seriously wrong in a company, when the highest salaried employees can be TOTALLY removed for a month or so, have no replacement do their work, and yet have no effect on the company's productivity?

This quip of Mr Q's - "It takes an extremly dedicated individual to move into a Management role on call 24/7" - causes me to smirk each time I read it :p
"on call" - to do exactly WHAT?

Any wonder management don't have unions - they could withdraw their labour indefinitely, and no-one would notice.....except the shareholders, who would be several million $$'s better off in dividends! :ok:

[planemad2]

I have found over the years, that things work better over these periods, without these Management types. ;)

Then when they all return on Tuesday, they pick fault with every little thing to try to justify their positions. :rolleyes:

[Mr Qantas]

OK losers I want a few misconsceptions cleared up.

I am not a Qantas manager. I work as a Supervisor in Line Maint. I have worked my way up over 30 odd years and have freinds on the floor and up higher. I did work over Chrismas and unlike you losers I havent been creaming all over my computer on an hourly basis. I come here once or twice a week to try and dispell the lies and misinformation that this site is now becoming inreasingly known for.

I get along well with my peers and equally my workers. I think the company eba offer is a joke like the rest of the lames but understand that something must be given in order to secure a wage rise. They cant just keep increasing our wages every year without some return from us.

The good will that has been forged by the ALAEA and Qantas should stand them in good sted and see most the company claims droped. Overtime banking (heavy maint only) looks like it will stay remembering that Avalon and Brisbane HM already do it.
Penalties on course might stay as well considering we all get a wage rise when we obtain a new rating anyway.

If the lames accept a bit of pain Im sure we could get a wage rise and maybe even a higher priority for staff travel upgrades. Something I now we all wish stayed last time it was offered. Good luck negotiating team and please spend less time slaging me on this forum and more time talking about the issues.

[cognac]

Mr. Qantas,
Whilst the award states that the LAME will do a reasonable amount of overtime it is my understanding that NO company will put an amount (in hours) what they think is a reasonable amount.
Also, how do you define a reasonable amount?

[Ultralights]

i cant believe i put in 6 months work to get the overtime banking dropped, and now its in????? thank god im out of there.

Pay rates within Qantas never rose in the 11 yrs i was there! they were always below the inflation rate. in real terms, you always went backwards, and by the sounds of, your still going backwards!

30 yrs in Qf, i feel for you. im sorry.

its funny now i have been on the outside for 3 yrs, just how many fellow qf employees i meet, and most say "im a LAME now" or "i have my PE or leading hand" or whatever when i ask how they are doing, sad reality is QF qualifications mean NOTHING outside the fences of that protected litle world.

sadly Mr QF, your attitude reaks of standard QF Buls****e/ arrogance/ lack of respect that has come to by the hallmark of QF management!

[Dexter]

if you want i can help you with youre speling and punctuaction mr quantass.
are you wots nown as a turncote?

[DutchRoll]

They cant just keep increasing our wages every year without some return from us.
Yet they can increase their profits every year in line with a vibrant economy and give diddly squat back to the very people who facilitate those profits. Unless of course you're in management, in which case you'll get a very large slice of the pie.

[fordran]

If the lames accept a bit of pain Im sure we could get a wage rise and maybe even a higher priority for staff travel upgrades.

If the wage rise you speak of is 3% you can forget it. That is not a wage rise that is a cut when compared with the average worker. Nobody gives a damn about staff travel upgrades, how the hell do they help me feed the family.

The blokes are so pi##ed off with the airlines attitude and arrogance when it comes to wages, conditions and changes in the workplace. 66% for Management and 3% for workers if they suffer some pain is a joke. The cosy relationship between the union and Qf has delivered us nothing but pain over the years. Those days have now ended with the unofficial OT bans. The members no longer listen to the Exec and therefore aren't controlled by BD and friends. Stick your friggen agreement where it fits Mr Q.

[Sunfish]

"good working relationship with company"???????????????????

What about a good working relationship with the members you are supposed to represent?

This clown is an idiot. To get management respect, you need a feral President and committee like the building workers.

"good working relationship with company"???????????????????

What about a good working relationship with the members you are supposed to represent?

This clown is an idiot. To get management respect, you need a feral President and committee like the building workers.

Furthermore, the idea that the company can take more and more and everbody gets more except the labor force is seriously flawed.

I\'m afraid, as with CASA, this is only going to end one way - a large hole in the ground someday followed by a royal commission as to why safety is no longer a priority.

[Motorola]

"So how are your little ot bans going. Between the 6 of you I bet the airline are shaking at there knees."

That's odd, no gound engineer I come into contact with is doing overtime.

[Mr Qantas]

That's odd, no gound engineer I come into contact with is doing overtime.

What is a gound engineer? I thought you bus drivers knew how to spell. I dont seem to be having to much trouble getting the workers to come in for overtime.



What about a good working relationship with the members you are supposed to represent?

Apart from a few disgruntled Mexicans as a whole you will find that alaea members are more than satisfyed with there union. If you dont like it you could always leave.


Nobody gives a damn about staff travel upgrades, how the hell do they help me feed the family.

Speak for your self Fordy. We dont all hold the same values and nearly every lame I now thinks the staff travel issue is the most important thing we should push for. You see its all a matter of respect and proffessionalism and when we gain that from Qantas along with all the perks such as first class travel then we can push for wage increases in line with management.

[Orville]

That's right 'Q' I can just see the LAME's being upgraded to sit with one of the Board members or even the little man himself, when they go on their free travel. They would really have a lot to talk about.

Honestly LAMES don't want first class travel they would be happier with a firmer on load priority and a business seat. But then who can get a sit these days, the company is going so well there always full.

Go figure and little Geoff still keeps crying poor, every time a new EBA comes around geoff can pull out a disaster from his hat that is going to affect the companies profitabilty, just long enough to sway the vote.

[Dexter]

"I thought you bus drivers knew how to spell."
thankew Mr Q. now lets have a few from ewe..

Typical loose liped rubbish...
disruption to the enginering business
Nowone nows about this OT ban
and grangstanding on this respected forum.
Most lames are suportive of
Keep geussing fools
To much of a pay cut
It takes an extremly dedicated individual
nights reveiwing email, answering calls etc...
the Mexican s**t stirers.
OK losers I want a few misconsceptions cleared up.
have freinds on the floor and up higher.
try and dispell the lies
in good sted
spend less time slaging me
I dont seem to be having to much trouble
alaea members are more than satisfyed
its all a matter of respect and proffessionalism

i now i'm bad butt your a berluddy shocker!!

[vortsa]

WHAT ! ! ! !:confused: :confused: :confused:

[splatman]

DEXTER

Nice to see some humour thrown into the slanging match.

Bruddy Bewt!

Mr Qantas, I dont know what the awards say about working OT and if it is mandatory, but I can't see any manager or supervisor placing pressure on a LAME to work overtime after he says he is tired from working OT in the past. Particularly if something about SAFETY is mumbled.

Or try this one, I am fatigued and I believe that if I work I will be placing myself at risk of an accident. Now that will send OH&S alarm bells ringing.

Seriously, negotiations are the way to go. NEGOTIATIONS! BOTH PARTIES need to participate.

Good luck to you all on both sides, sounds like a place I wouldnt want to be in.

:ouch:

[wanty]

Count the number of EBA'S that QF has stitched us up.The number you come up with, is how many defects we should be writing in the Techlog, before each preflight,"NOT JUST ONE".In my mind,this would seriously and rapidly fill up the Techlog with Hold items.We are Lames,who out there has the right to challenge the merits of any defect we enter in the log."ONLY OTHER LAMES".Come on boys its time to fight these pricks we call an employer.
You know what the ****ty thing is,about this situation.Most Lame's I work with,"DO" bust their ass to keep an aircraft on time,but the company rewards their Managers with large pay rises and they dont even have "peoples lives"in their hands.

[Ultralights]

Or try this one, I am fatigued and I believe that if I work I will be placing myself at risk of an accident. Now that will send OH&S alarm bells ringing.

you will be quite surprised to note quite a few employees have had car acidents on their way home from work due to fatigue, falling asleep behind the wheel, i know 2 of them personally, and being a union delegate back then, there was at least 1 per week! 1 fatal that i knew of!

if employees are that tired they are crashing on the way home, (some have crashed leaving the car park and QF drive!) then what does this say about the quality and the effrot thay are putting into their work while on overtime??

Qf have screwed everyone they can over and won EVERY time! all the best of luck in the upcoming battles! (the AMWU are always up for a good fight!)

[wanty]

Hey,Ultralights,
Do you realise qantas have a waffle policy of"No accidents at any time",But behind closed management doors,this policy only matters at work,as QF dont really give a damn about any of their employees once they leave the gate.

[The masked goatrider]

Qf IR out for someones head. Senior Management have held emergency meetings and warned ALAEA officials that they will be seeking the leaders of this action and won't hold back when the punishment is dished out. It is rumoured that some senior ALAEA officials may "dob in" the ring leaders and make false statements in order to kill off political opponents. Members are advised not to discuss the situation with any member of the ALAEA EBA negotiating committee.

737 sits idle at Melbourne hangar for over a week with fuel quantity defect. No LAME is available to get the aircraft back in service and Senior managers are fuming. Heavy maint provided 2 LAMEs to work for a limited time on the airplane but were unable to fix the problem. HM Mel have now been informed that any LAME who breaks rank will never work in Line again.

BBJ and Nauru airplanes sit idle tonight and no LAME has made themselves available to fly in and rectify the broken birds. Maybe some Managers could pull some spanners out.

Bans now moving into HM, Base Serv and other areas in conjunction with the EBA offer. International Terminals now "onboard". :ok:

[Dexter]

Maybe some Managers could pull some spanners out.

as tits on a bull. thats how usfull there showing them selfs to be when theres sumwons reely needed.

all this threats from managment is making me loose more sleep an getting tireder wundring what akshun there goin to take.
definately no chance off o/t for me with that sorter pressure! :}

[HIRRY BALSAK]

I wish you guys all the best in your endevours.Far too long corperate suits have devalued the work and sacrifice that LAMES make to keep the a/c flying.Always going the distance!.How many times have we had to make that phone call to wives and family saying we have to stay back to complete a job?.More and more lately due to cost savings on manpower.When will companys learn that LAMES are cheap insurance.A lot of companys in europe and the us have realised the error of there ways in removing LAMES from the tarmac and are putting engineers back at the coalface.think about it, they know the aircraft that transit,the history and specific probs that certain a/c may have had.Remove them and you remove that intimate knowlege they have and that means delays .
Just be careful guys big brother will be out there
P.S Mr qeerass, sorry, Mr Qantas- I cant believe you are a LAME how can you turn on your peers? you of all people should know the sacrifices LAMES make, you should be ashamed of yourself by devalueing your profession ALAEA A

[wanty]

QUOTE"Maybe some Managers could pull some spanners out".
Managers fix fuel cal problem.
HA Ha, I'd like to see that.
Maybe I could be wrong,some of them might really need the $2 a day extra for working in a fuel tank.
Manager 1. "PSD 60 test box,whats that?."
Manager 2. "Dont confuse me, Im still counting my xmas bonus"
Manager 1. "What, I thought you were locating the fuel tanks!"
Manager 2. "Don't pressure me, I'll find em"
Manager 2. "Hey I think we connect that box to those (antenna) things in the tanks".
Manager 1. "What's this TSU thing it keeps saying here in the maint instructions?"
Manager 2. "Oh thats part of the new indication system I I advised the company to pick up a few years ago,made the system more reliable.Got me a big fat bonus for that one too"

[Orville]

The parties are committed to complete negotiations on the new agreement prior to the expiry of this Agreement.

This just proves how committed both parties really are, time has run out. So why can't the members do something to bring it to an end.

This is one clause that can be negotiated away for the next EBA because it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

It's been the same for every EBA from the beginning, and I was led to believe last time it was the mexicans slowing down the proceedings, so what excuse are they going to use this time?

[Sunfish]

Time running out is a tactic. Everything is supposed to then come to a head and see who blinks first.

Usually it is the union that blinks because of concern for members jobs and a lack of financial resources, and of course a worry about prejudicing that "close working relationship" with "management":yuk:

The company IR guys on the other hand have no such concerns.

The actual reality of the industrial relations club is that you can be as brutal as hell because its only a game to them.

Pressure is going to ramp up eventually. Expect the Packer press and their mates to be writing things like "Tsunami Relief Efforts Hampered by striking engineers".

Then of course the Minister for Qantas will roll in and make threateneing government noises.

The only safe argument you guys can make is...... safety and the need for adequate rest

[Mr Qantas]

All this misinformation is starting to wear a bit thin with the members and management alike. It has always been a tactic of the undesireables to use places like this to spread there lies though. I for one WILL NOT be taking any action over the lame certification issue or the eba what ever the outcome of membership votes is.

More likely will be to see large groups of us taking relief under section 298 of the work place relations act and what affect will that have on the creditability of our membership? Something you Mexicans ought to have a little think about.

[Orville]

If the membership can show solidarity on this ONE issue then we will be a union again.

ALL FOR ONE and ONE FOR ALL

[Sunfish]

Great Supervisory style; "Undesirables', "Mexicans".

Management must be chanting "Divide and Rule!", "Divide and Rule!" all the way to the bank.

This sounds like the classic situation where agendas are not aligned and managment knows how to drive a wedge between sectional interests.

The "mexicans" seem to have had enough BS. The "President wants his power and "close working relationship" with management. Mr. Qantas is scared that if anyone rocks the boat then middle managment (ie his good self) will get it in the neck when the work goes overseas.

Same question as before

1. What is the vision for the ALEA? WHere do you want to be in ten years time? Five years time? What would the organisation look like? Sound like? Feel Like?

2. Given the vision, where are the gaps between where you are today and where you want to be?

3. How are you going to bridge the gaps? Whats the immediate mission?

To fail to plan is to plan to fail.

[Ultralights]

Mr Qantas- I cant believe you are a LAME how can you turn on your peers? you of all people should know the sacrifices LAMES make, you should be ashamed of yourself by devalueing your profession ALAEA A

isnt being a turncoat part of the package when moving from the common ranks to a management position??? or part of the backhand package offered to get members to turn against their fellow employees in such times?

I know of 3 in 1 workshop alone during the last EBA negs.

[The masked goatrider]

The future plans of the ALAEA in 10 years, 5 years and 18 months are well in hand. Planning commenced 3 years ago and appear to be well ahead of schedule. You will be able to kiss goodbye the following -

The President
The Senior Vice President
The Trustees
The Assistant Federal Secretary
The Federal Secretary
The Staff Councillor
Uncle Bruce
Two office girls
The Industrial Manager
The Senior Industrial Officer
The pi$$ ups
Hidden Financial Records
The silence when members need information meetings
Late EBA negotiations
Unanswered phone calls
Unanswered letters


I could go on for hours but there is much work to be done. The immediate battle is on the tarmac where members are learning about unity. Something foreign to the ALAEA. Qf using the Senior ALAEA officials to drive wedges between us is a thing of the past.

[matca]

Mr Qantas,

Come the revolution (and it will come) you and your type will be the first ones to be biting the pillow, cause you're a wannabe. You want to play with the big boys but you'll never get the bonuses that your bosses get for shafting the people who do the real work around the place.

Do you think by posting on this forum that your buddies up top will remember you when the EBA negotiations are over and they've received their bonuses. (And they always do because whatever the outcome, the slime will have all sorts of formulas for justifying their existence)

Remember where you're from buddy, you can always change your circumstances but you can't change where you're from. Your 'mates' know where you're from and they laugh at how easy it is to manipulate clowns like you.

LAMES: 3% Increase when CPI is 3% ain't a wage rise, go hard fellas, good luck!

:ok:

[Chief Chook]

Maybe some Managers could........Could do what exactly?
At the very best, they might be able to check in a few customers, and load some bags. That is probably the limit of upper level management's capabilities.
But if the aircraft isn't going anywhere, even those token symbols are totally meaningless.
They are the drones in the beehives of aviation.

[Sunfish]

Goatrider, Hmmmm, that sounds like the old Ansett Superannuation fund management, especially the Pi$$ ups.

[vortsa]

Sunfish, You might be right some of the managers are ex Ansett.
It seems with all their lame brain ideas they still seem to keep themselves in a job.

Remember what brought on the demise of Ansett, it was Engineering or more importantly the bad management of Engineering. But then again what is the only division of the company that is still standing? Engineering they are there at the beginning and they will be there at the end.

[Orville]

I hear on the grape vine that customer airlines are considering putting in their own staff, in Aus, until this issue has been resolved.

Can the ring leaders give an assurance that it won't effect customer aircraft?

[Dexter]

upper level management......the drones in the beehives of aviation.

hahaha gawd i luv that!

[The masked goatrider]

Can the ring leaders give an assurance that it won't effect customer aircraft


No they can't.

[Mr Qantas]

Now that is real inteligent from you lot targeting customer aircraft. Just when you thought the Mexicans had reached rock bottom it seems that theyve set a new low. Pity any lame who wont extend there services/goodwill to our foraign customers. There is no way the Suprvisors I now will allow this to happen without stepping in and working the aircraft themselves. I'm sure that JV has herd about this unfettered disruption and I'm equally as sure that he will be looking for someone to make an example of. I just hope he is one of the Melbourne Executive members.

[Dexter]

hay mr qantas do you thunk we mite be bruthers? we spell abot as good as each other.
if theirs to much work for the lames shuldnt the priorerty be qf aircraft first - extra work (so called foreign customers) shuld be let go.
or more lames employed.
start "taking action" against individuals an you just increase the workload on the others evn more.
a piece of elasatic can be stretched only so far you now.
i serpose the drones in the beehive of qf are having there emergncy meatings this weekend.
it must be tramatic for them to have to work some o/t!

[VTM]

Mr Qantas,
This is a big act right! No supervisor I know, in any airline would go on with such rubbish. :yuk: :yuk:

VTM

[planemad2]

Replace these terrible LAMEs with Management LAMEs, like that would work. :rolleyes:

I still remember vividly back in the early 1960s when I was an Apprentice, the then LAMEs in desperation went on one of the few strikes they ever had. :uhoh:

All of the Apprentices were FORCED (by Law) to work with these Management Engineers, most of whom held Licences. :(

Oh they were legally allowed to certify for the Aircraft, but the Apprentices had to show them EVERYTHING, and I mean literally everything, down to how to fuel the Aircraft and even how to change the cabin bulkheads. :rolleyes:

[Son of Brake Boy]

Letter sent to all Line Managers across the weekend....



Gents

In the past 2 weeks there has been a significant reduction in the amount of operational overtime worked by Line Maintenance staff. There has also been a significant reduction in the amount of staff making themselves available for operational overtime.

This has had an impact on Line Maintenance meeting its operational commitment to the airline.

If it becomes apparent that required manpower levels cant be obtained via operational overtime, the cancellation of 'Z' days must be considered and implemented to maintain appropriate levels of manpower. This is being driven by the fact that operational overtime needs are not being achieved.

Can you keep me advised when operational overtime levels begin to normalise so we can review this position.



Dont know anything about Overtime bans!

[Mr Qantas]

That letter was personel property of the managers it was sent to and not a public notice. One can only imagine that we now have a rat in Management who leaks this information out. This has been deliberately posted to wind up the hand full of lames that still think there is an ot ban. Again I have not had any problem getting people in to work.

[Kaptin M]

Anyone care to fill us plebs in on what "Z" days are, please?

[planemad2]

Mr Q,

I don't think it is really PERSONAL property, probably meant to be secret for obvious reasons. :uhoh:

A "rat", hardly.

I would say more someone with ethics. ;)

Kaptin M,

Basically, when the awards went from 40 hours a week down to 38 hours a week, instead of changing everything and having 2 hours extra off each week, most places have an extra day off each month.

Sometimes this is built in to a roster, sometimes you can have a day off when you want IF okay with the Employer.

[Son of Brake Boy]

Today B.D. contacted supervisors across the network.

He was his usual cheery self....swearing, threatening, angry....oh soo angry! The context of the 'conversation' went a little something like this....

If workers wish to continue making themselves unavailable for Overtime their access to 'Z' days will be altogether removed.

( Funnily enough not all departments get these 'Z' days and whilst they are unaccessable for the short term they still continue to build up ie. 1 per month. for those that do!)

All training will be cancelled

( He speaks as if there was a huge amount of training taking place as it is! No big loss there.)


Workers will have to change shift patterns to accomodate the lack of manpower.

( The lack of manpower demonstrated by the guys simply choosing not to work on their days off. Any change to roster MUST be approved by the workers affected, or the shift can be returned to a standard 8 hour roster. He thinks he has problems now....).

Aircraft being delayed now for any substantial period of time are being investigated (explaining ones self to management and other departments not uncommon).

Maybe he should start to consider what may happen if he really starts to p#ss the guys off! His tantrams and threats are remeniscent of the SDT Overtime bans a few years ago. Eventually management came begging the guys to lift their bans and asking what they wanted to make it happen. That was only one base..!

Keep fighting the good fight.

[Pimp Daddy]

The lack of manpower demonstrated by the guys simply choosing not to work on their days off. Any change to roster MUST be approved by the workers affected, or the shift can be returned to a standard 8 hour roster. He thinks he has problems now....

Be careful with this. Any change to a roster system is usually by agreement (ie: 4 on 4off to 4 on 3 off etc). Any change within an agreed roster pattern can be directed without employee consent usually (ie: crew a to crew b) if it's less that 48 hrs then penalties can apply.

It's hard to figure out what rules QF LAMEs are under as there appear to be about 57 different current agreements. Why don't you have one document that gets updated each time instead of tacking all these extra agreements on. Leaves you wide open for the employer to shaft you.

[VTM]

What is operational overtime?I think I feel sick today!

VTM

[Son of Brake Boy]

Pimp Daddy

You're absolutely right. Moving people between crews or onto a shift pattern they have already agreed to work can be implemented with 48 hours notice. The shift can also revert back to an 8 hour roster with the same amount of notice.

Either way, they would be making one hole to plug another. Deferred work is continuing to back up. Scheduled maintenance is now being effected by the 'Gentlemens agreement'. Aircraft are being grounded (in some cases for days) because there is just no one to fix them.

Heavy, Base and Line maintenance Engineers....International and Domestic....are all united. Across the Australian network LAME's are co ordinating their efforts with no input from the ALAEA or its officials.

Management are more than a little concerned....and rightly so.

Lets see them cover the expertise of all these LAME's with their wide and varied aircraft maintenance experience, topped off with their 'Cornflakes box' licences.

And this 'agreement' has been in place less than 2 weeks.

[SeldomFixit]

BD, like DC before him, is the lowest form of filth - a union executive who becomes company management, or in the case of DC, the bench. The Association needs to demonstrate to its membership that it is THEIR representative body, rather than a Company policy facilitator. Are you listening Michael ?

[Motorola]

"hand full of lames"

That's odd, none of the ground engineers I come into contact with are doing overtime on customer aircraft.

[Ultralights]

thanks guys! keep up the fight! now i know why the "please come back" phone calls are getting more regular! there are 3 former engineers i know of recieving these calls!

[Son of Brake Boy]

Apparently Melbourne Engineers today were threatened with removal from upcoming type training and the amalgamation of the the International and Domestic lunch rooms.

These threats were made due to the number of delays and deferred work incurred by the department since the 'Gentlemens agreement' began.

After employees were informed of the threats, the laughter was deafening. A pathetic attempt by QF management to divide and conquer the crippling work place practices being employed across the network.

Without losing step, the LAME's simply asked 'What work bans?!' After being contacted by concerned members, an ALAEA Industrial Officer reassured members that should any of the threats be actually carried out, QF management would be dragged into the AIRC and Industrial action SANCTIONED by the ALAEA would commence immediately.

[Mr Qantas]

Industrial action SANCTIONED by the ALAEA

You are a dreamer SOBB. The alaea is not in the fighting game. They are the most proffessional union you will ever deal with and will negotiate the best outcome for us. Stop spreading your rubish here. Nobody seems to be interested on the shop floor and management will do what they think is in the best interest of the airline.

[Mean, Nasty & Tired]

So Mr Potato Head is threatening LAMEs, nothing new here he regularly hands out profanities stitched with intimidation and that's to his friends (oh and managers).

As an individual in the line of fire will anyone else support us if we don't support ourselves. The flyboys (and girls) that I have spoken to seem split between supporting a fellow licence holder by refusing extra duties and those who will be swayed by cold hard cash.

In short can we survive this most heinous occurance or will they dispatch us as they did the pilots not so long ago when they didn't follow company doctrine.
Or more importantly will the flying public suffer or dare I say die due this ridiculous decision

PS A letter from MPH confirms his desire to remove us from preflights as of the first of february:* :mad:

[Son of Brake Boy]

Support from Tech Crew on this issue would be limited at best. The precident set by Jetstar drivers puts QF Crews in a vulnerable position. Management would tell Crews to continue doing the preflight inspections they are currently doing. The only people we can rely on in dealing with the no man transit will be....ourselves!

QF management have been having crisis talks over the past couple of days in an effort to develop strategies to counter the 'perceived' bans taking place across the network. With Darwin being the last port to come on board with these 'perceived' bans, all bases around Australia are now participating.

No doubt the strategy employed by management will involve their 'divide and conquer' tactics that have worked so effectively for them in the past. Having said that, I've recently heard a couple of Base Maintenance reps encouraging Base staff not support the bans siting 'When have the Domestic LAME's ever supported us?'.

The motivation behind such coments escapes me. A win for LAME's has got to be a win for ALL LAME's. Its dissappointing to hear that attitudes like this still exist, and particularly coming from Reps. Either way, if you dont support the action against no man transit implementation, perhaps you can find reason for action in the EBA offer from the company, and the lack of action in finalising the EBA before the end of the negotiating period.

Stick to your guns guys. The only people going to help us are ourselves, no matter what department we work in!

[Motorola]

Can someone with a balanced view (not Mr. Qantas) please BRIEFLY outline what the big industrial issues are, and what a/c types the no-man transit is being proposed for?

Thanks.

[ziggy007]

Just so people are aware, 4 guys HAVE been pulled from PCT training due to current manpower levels in Perth.:zzz:

[planemad2]

Nice to see things haven't changed much. :(

The Airlines always do things like this to try to break your solidarity, PLEASE don't let them.

We had the same years ago with the priority duty travel, the ALAEA refused to help us (their own members) and tried to make us back down.

Luckily the LAMEs stuck together and defied the ALAEA, so then the Airlines agreed to first class firm travel to and from breakdowns, but no other travel including training.

When this was voted down by the members (against the advice of the ALAEA) and ALL travel was banned until they agreed to our demands, things got really nasty, like cancelling training etc.

Finally, because we all stuck together, the Airlines had to agree.

Then of course the ALAEA, who had done everything they could to stop us, took the credit for it. :rolleyes:

For all of your sakes, PLEASE stick together and don't give in. :ok:

[Son of Brake Boy]

The Industrial situation as it stands is 2 fold. The issues are:

* Introduction of the 'No Engineer Transit' of QF Domestic B737NG and A330 aircraft.

and

* The delay in finalising the LAME EBA, of which the negotiating period finished on 31st December 2004.

Whilst not wanting to detract from the importance of the Tech Crew preflight inspection, LAME's have both the experience and the objectivity to ensure the safety of the travelling public.

The LAME gets paid if the aircraft flies or not, isnt pressured by commercial requirements, doesnt have 'only one sector until I'm off', has full access to airworthiness infomation in determining the servicability of the aircraft, and has the experience in the hangar of knowing where these aircraft break.

Unfortunately, it costs money to provide this kind of safety, and costing money doesnt give managers bonusses, and in the short term, it doesnt give shareholders an extra 1 cent per share on their dividend.

Watch the share price plummit with the first plane that does the same!

Keep fighting the good fight gentlemen!

[Sunfish]

You make a very good point SOBB, this is a human factors thing and a genuine issue. What happens when the pilot/checker decides that there is just enough rubber for one more landing and pushes his luck? What happens if he decides to leave a brake pack for the next guy to replace?

Given the way people work, it is inevitable that pressure is going to be applied (informally of course) to overlook a few things in the interest of keeping to schedule.

The masters of this approach of course is Esso. They have reams of safety manuals and so on that you are supposed to comply with, but you are not given the resources (including time) to comply. Since you are transferred every two years (as an international executive) there is a very strong compulsion to fergettabahtit and just pray that nothing happens on your watch. Read about Esso's actions at the Longford Gas plant fire - they immediately blamed the victims for not following procedures.

[Motorola]

Thanks for summary.

"isnt pressured by commercial requirements"

I'd like to see that.

[Son of Brake Boy]

Thanks for the further info Sunfish. Certainly makes for interesting reading.

I believe QF are completely aware of the Human Factor issues relating to grounding an aircraft. The idea of carrying a defect as long as you can is much better commercially than having an 'airworthiness inspestor' (The LAME) inspecting an aircraft before every flight, and seeing things basically in black and white (its either servicable or its not....period.).

As if Tech crew aren't under enough pressure as it is, now they'll be expected to carry out a thorough preflight inspection on top of all the other work they have to accomplish during a turnaround and will be required to assess the servicability of a perceived defect. Only once the Tech crew member has determined that the problem needs attention will an Engineer be called upon.

Interesting that the Preflight checks carried out on a B747-400 appear to be normally carried out by the Second Officer (if theres one on the flight). So if this procedure translates across to B744 ops then the possibilty of having a Second Officer, straight off a cadetship and straight out of flying a Seminole (I know there all not like that!), determining the servicability of a B744 is quite realistic, and as far as I'm concerned, quite scary.

This is one of the issues relating to the unofficial OT bans on at the moment, and it appears that QF management have already stood down at least 1 LAME because of it. Such is the price of trying to maintaining a strict vigilance on airworthiness with no support from Civil Aviation SAFETY Authority.

[The Fremantle Doctor]

How can we possibly be stood down for not doing overtime?

As far as I was aware it was optional. If I have a family member sick, have previously arranged a night out with the better half, the kids have soccer on, or any number of other family commitments , am I going to have to sign a Stat. Dec. in order to avoid being told I am involved in work bans.

Where is our union while all this is taking place? No wonder we've felt the need to bypass them in taking action. Good luck to you my friend.Perth will continue the bans, some are even talking about going further with them.

[Redstone]

Guys in CNS know nothing of bans. I know for a fact there was ot at SDT last night. What's the real story.....on or not?

[Son of Brake Boy]

If you want to know the story I'd suggest you ask Bruce!

They're not standing people down and threatening workers because it was his New Years resolution. Once again the heat placed on us is indicative of the heat placed on Bruce.

You cant honestly think that calling up a Line Station and asking 'Hey, have you guys got OT bans on at the moment?' is really going to be met with an honest answer.

'OT bans?! What are you talking about?'. Pretty standard response now given management are trying to target individuals.

My answer to you question though would be that OT bans are definately in place, and if a few guys choose to work and help the company out, they should be spoken to politely and asked for their support.

Every person can make a difference. We all have to decide individually if we are going to try to or not. If I'm going out, I'm going out fighting.

[Redstone]

Yeah, thanks for that.........you think I would just "ring" a line station at random and ask the first bloke who answers the phone? Most guys have mates in many ports and departments, you know what the Q rumour mill is like.

[Son of Brake Boy]

Respectfully acknowledged.

Either way people will become less inclined to talk about what they're doing for fear of being singled out. That, I believe, has been the whole point of singling out at elast 1 LAME and possibly up to 3.

They are hurting over this, and responding the only way they've found effective in the past....threats and scare mongering.

Follow the lead of SDT a few years ago....they held out with the OT bans and WON. Fillipeto came into the lunchroom begging the guys to lift their bans and asked what it would take for them to commence OT again.

Apparently B.D. used the same tactics and threats back then too.

[Redstone]

Just alot of confusion at the moment son of brake boy, the trusted fellow travellers I have spoken with since hearing about the situation this week have heard nare a whisper. The word is spreading though.

[The masked goatrider]

Put your Heavy Maintenance eyes on brothers.

[The Fremantle Doctor]

Redstone is right. There was a lot of confusion around our work area as to what was going on and to what extent bans were being put on.

We've basically undertaken to not come in on days off, and not extend past our finsh times. People wanted to take it further, but it was decided that this would have to be up to the individual, but the no OT on days off and no extensions was non negotiable.

In light of developments in the last 24 hours, I think we'll be looking at increasing our reluctance to do anything outside the normal scope of our employ.

Unfortunately, money talks with these guys, and if we're not delaying aircraft they'll just brush it off. Very sad situation where we're looking to ground aircraft instead of keeping them flying, but if thats what it takes, I'm in.

Once all this is over, watch the backlog of work dissappear as guys return to doing what they do best, keeping aircraft flying, SAFELY.

[vortsa]

If the employer is so disillusioned to believe that overtime is an essential part of the LAME duties and thinks he is obligated to do overtime as part of his contract. Then why is overtime or a component of overtime not included into their leave and superannuation.

Me thinks this dispute has opened up a new path in the negotiations for better pay as is always the case employers want it their way and are reluctant to see it from the other side.

When union executives are poached buy the employer and are put into positions of industrial relations there must also be some brain washing done to remove the memories of what it was like to be an employee only wanting a fair go.

[Moment of Clarity]

I have had an oppurtunity to read the postings on this site concerning the overtime bans in place at the moment in a few areas of line maintenance. Whilst I appreciate it may be an unpopular opinion, I would like to take the oppurtunity to post what I see as the REAL truth of our situation.

Firstly, with Jetstar looking to take over more of the traditionally QF domestic routes, the core domestic product is being reduced. This is a reality. With lower cost overheads, why wouldn't the QF board be looking to increase the Jetstar brand and reduce the high cost domestic operation.

Secondly, what is hoped to be achieved with these overtime bans? Come February 1 there will be a freeing up of manpower anyway, so all they have to do is weather the storm until then. There seems to be confusion as to whats going on with bans, and individuals are now taking the responsibility for the aspirations of a few.

Thirdly, the EBA we have been offered is purely reflective of the situation our airline is in at the moment. Whether you like it or not Jetstar is owned by QANTAS, but it ISNT QANTAS. We have to strive to be competitive not for managers bonuses, but to keep our jobs.

If you guys are seroius about keeping your jobs, you'll accept the EBA and finish the overtime bans that are only contributing to making the QF domestic operation unviable and unsustainable.

In responding, as I'm sure people will, try to see the reasoning in what I say. I'm sure eventually you will see the truth of my words.

[HIRRY BALSAK]

Geez Mr Qantas oops Mr moment of clarity first came 9/11,then came sars,now jetstar and still the profits roll in.
You are truely showing your self as a stooge.
Engineers keep airlines running without them it dont.
Managment are needed to keep the airline running without them it dont ,eventually.
Ive said it before but Ill say it again.You should be ashamed to call yourself a LAME and devalue your trade the way you do.
Go to a corner and have a good think about what you are posting.
As far as the ALAEA is concerned Ive yet to see them do anything of value in the current climate .Great idea to stay quiet and accept things as they are.Lets do that.
:p :ok: :yuk:

[planemad2]

Mr Qantas,

Credit where credit is due.

Your spelling has improved.

Did someone buy you a dictionary for Christmas. ;)

Or is it just Qantas are now writing down for you the crap they want you to say. :rolleyes:

[Mr Qantas]

Moment of clarity - You hit the nail on the head. It is a competative enviroment and we need to compete with the competition or fold. The sooner the troublemakers realize this the better we'll all be.

[planemad2]

Now you are talking to yourself............. :uhoh: :ooh:

[Icarus2001]

competative enviroment Does anyone remember when spelling was taught in our schools?

[MRS QANTAS]

Please forgive MR QANTAS he has had one too many hash cookies and wouldnt have a clue what he is talking about..
The reality is the alaea is hopeless...QF engineers are been misrepresented, the division amongst the delegates is a disgrace.
PPRUNE is a great media to inform all about what is going on and should be used..QF brothers and sisters spread the word, the time is coming to pull together....F..k the division between sections that has been used to divide and conquer..We must unite and stand together..