NATS Destinations - YOU DECIDE

[Barry Cuda]

Hi all, but specifically NATS controllers... :uhoh:


Pop on to the Nats Net site, check out the new "21 destinations" micro site and use your perogative (sp?) to let them know whether you think they are useful, not bothered or, and I don't want to sway your vote here, IRRITATING.... :mad:

Merry Christmas to all, whatever your destination, religion, sexuality or politics. Let it be a peaceful one, and may Santa bring you a big sack of pressies :D


:
(Come on guys, we're up to 27% now....):ok:

[Vlad the Impaler]

Hey Barry,
We all need a goal in life. Just imagine April 2007 and all will be well. Probably go to hell in a basket inbetween but hey, who cares ?
Crappy Histmas

[Barry Cuda]

Vlad, come April 2007 we'll all be looking at a new destination at this rate.... The dole queue!:{

[bagpuss lives]

It's a brave man or woman who votes for IRRITATING using their own log-in. Remember, you're either with them or you're against them.

Expect a boarding card for your P45s in the post.

[Barry Cuda]

Niteflight, If they don't like the answer, don't ask the question...

And what is all this "you're either with them..." bo:mad:s? The company are not some tyrannical regime run by a despotic crackpot out to make as much money as possible before the people cotton on to them, are they? :ouch:

[GT3]

Use a collective log in to vote ;) LHR atc vote has been cast! I really want to know who are the people that are intrigued by them....surely the Red Barron cant cast that many votes???

[PPRuNe Radar]

Mmmmm,

couldn't find the 'DILLIGAF' button anywhere :rolleyes: :p

[bagpuss lives]

That's under Staff Information > FORMS > Resignation... I think

[Not Long Now]

So what odds on the definition of SSE's being 'revised' so as to enable a destination to be reached?

[Vlad the Impaler]

rearrange the words LAND, CLOUD and CUCKOO to form a well known phrase or saying. Then write out 200 times. "I will not have an airprox today" and hand in by friday afternoon.

[niknak]

Its all very well making such posts, but if you're a member of the majority of "the great unwashed" who don't work for NATS, you can't access the site of the holy....:E

[055166k]

The NATS private forum doesn't have much on it. and is not well read.........all relevant stuff apart from "house-keeping" is on main page.
The "natsnet" might be the internal NATS office type system that staff use within NATS. It is supposed to be accessible by all staff, but I know several of us just can't get to grips with it........every time some-one shows me how it works the system seems to change my log-in .....so I give up. Last time I got "in" there were 1857 unread messages, nearly all were utter garbage.
It is used very much like our staff paper as a management propaganda tool.......so you're missing nothing.
The "destinations" refers to some newthink strategy by a growing team of ex-railway management hirelings who are anxious to impress people....this has backfired bigtime.....they appear by evidence of their actions to be shallow, superficial and [most relevant] short term.
As long as NATS holds a monopoly in Area service provision there will never be a "real" need to change the status quo....talk is cheap.

[Gonzo]

I actually sent an email (ironically enough!) to Corporate Comms the other day explaining that most operational staff (certainly at Heathrow) don't have time to log on to a computer to check their email account or read the intranet. In fact many don't even realise they have an email account.

That method might be fine for communicating with office staff who work at a computer desk, but the only way to be sure that ATCOs, ATSAs and ATCEs read any information is to leave a hard copy in the pigeonhole.

[Barry Cuda]

Niknak, I appreciate that there are more than NATS controllers on here, I was just trying to reach everyone on every possible board...



Keep up the good work, though, NATS people. We were up to 39% this morning. Still, I am sure the balance will be redressed when all of the office wallahs return from the Christmas/New Year break that they all seem to be on.

[Vlad the Impaler]

Whilst we are talking about imagining dates, has anyone come up with a TC moving date yet ? or is that a sore point...............

[Over+Out]

The decision on when to make the decision has been delayed again. We might know something in Feb.
Now does this all sound familiar!

[flowman]

What is the significance of the percentages you are referring to?
i.e. " we were up to 39% this morning"

[Gonzo]

Flowman, a brief history....

Our new Chief Exec has 'imagined' where the company will be in April 2007, and come up with 21 targets, sorry, 'destinations' that we should be achieving by then. Although he admits he doesn't know how we can do it yet.

Anyway, these destinations have been promoted in a number of silly ways, giving everyone a template for a paper aeroplane with them on the back, handing out pseudo boarding cards inviting you this 'journey' we're on going towards our 'destinations'.

There's a page on our company internal intranet where we can vote on how we feel about the destinations, from excited to irritated.

Irritated is the one we're talking about here.

[flowman]

Thank you Gonzo.
I'm 39% irritated just reading about it!:suspect:

[Barry Cuda]

Vlad/Over + Out : The date for announcing the window for the possible date of the move of TC to Swanwick has been put back to February. Window is supposed to be Jan 1st to March 27th 2007.

The date for announcing the date has been put back to May/June... Expected date was 9th Jan 2007.

However, apparently the boffins have said that there is no way we can make any of those dates, which makes the Red Barons statement of "March 27th 2007 OR ELSE" sound like an AC to Swanwick 1996 farce all over again...

So the Red Baron has given them some more time to think about it!!!

[dannyo]

just imagine...

[Jerricho]

Any truth the response to "How do we get to the destinations" was "We don't know!" :rolleyes:

[Gonzo]

Jer,

Oh yes. It's our job to tell them!!! :{

[Jerricho]

Oh boy, that's a good one.

"Put down your headsets for a minute. Right, how are we going to achieve......"

[flowman]

Sounds like a variation on the theme of management consultants using your wristwatch to tell you the time.
So you guys give them the answer and they take the money and the plaudits. Yeah, sure.:ok:

[Gonzo]

One point has been raised. One of the targets, sorry, destinations is; 'No safety Significant Events (ie. airproxes, etc) will be tolerated'. I wonder what will happen to the ATCO that has an airprox (perhaps through no fault of his or her own) in April 2007? Off to Room 101, never to be heard from again!

And if to improve safety is one of our new targets, sorry, destinations....I'm so confused as to what we've been trying to do up until now!

And then of course there's the great one where 'Managers will be empowered and rewarded.......' Nothing about other, non-managerial staff being empowered and rewarded!

[Jerricho]

Actually used the word tolerated did they? Very supportive.

I hear all the destination cards in MACC were changed to "Canada or bust" :E

[Barry Cuda]

Gonzo, couldn't agree more. Why was the word TOLERATED used? I'm not sure that I want to work for an organisation that has a fear of reprisal if you make human errors.

Kudos to the first person that does dare to "defy" the Red Baron and drop a clanger... Will the Union be strong enough to stand by said controller and protect him/her?

[Jerricho]

Personally, I think it show how out of touch whoever came up with this brilliant scheme is with the worker bees on the shop floor. Maybe another destination of "Ineffective or incompetent management will not be tolerated" should be added.

[Vlad the Impaler]

Thats all very well Jer but think of the layers and layers of management that will need to be heaved out of the door. I've said it b4 and I'll say it again. The "we will not tolerate airproxes" destination, whilst noble in intent, is extremely inept in it's wording and totally unachievable. Who goes to work with the intent to have a whoopsie ? If we had enough staff to man the required positions when it does blow then there would be less chance of these things happening. The whole thing stinks of a cheap sideshow and when this lot have been given the heave ho we will be faced with another load of waffle from our next saviour. perhaps I'm being over cynical, would love to be proved wrong...........still waiting.....just like TC :E

[Barry Cuda]

Well, with the return of the office staff this week the Irritated vote has actually gone UP to 43%!!! Maybe we misjudged them!:ok:

[Cuddles]

Rant on

I haven't put anything on the intranet yet, but I''m sure I will.

"SSE s will not be tolerated"

So now we've got a blame culture, and an ar5e covering cultutre instead of a safety culture.

Some ATCOs will now, instead of holding their hands up and admitting to minor indiscretions, (where electronic spying equipment permits) will cover them up, and important lessons of what went wrong, and what could be done better will be left unlearnt. Anyone on a SMWG, will find less and less to do, I can guarantee it.
What's the point of a safety management culture when incidents / occurences will be hidden? Ah yes, it looks good to SRG. It won't soon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying SSEs should be encouraged.

I look at the older guys at my unit, and I can't help thinking they've had the best years of ATC.

Rant off

[GT3]

I look at the older guys at my unit, and I can't help thinking they've had the best years of ATC.

Yeah think you are right there!

[BEXIL160]

Ref the "Will not tollerate" phraseology....

If you look at the "destinations" intranet site (yep, it's got it's own pages!), you will find an ideas page with links to each destination.

I notice that the "Will not tollerate" SSEs destination has already drawn a lot of comments from ATCOs mostly pointing out the blindingly obvious, that this is at best poorly worded and at worst a yet another indication of how far out of touch with reality the top table are. It's also not achievable.

The only comment from a manager seems to be: "stop moaning". Not very constructive, when the people that know about these things are pointing out an error.

Have a look yourself (if you can) . You might like to add your own comments.

Rgds BEX

[GT3]

Ignorant question here, but who grades SSEs is it SRG or the unit (ie ATC OPS/Training)?

[letMfly]

<<Ignorant question here, but who grades SSEs is it SRG or the unit (ie ATC OPS/Training)?>>

Perfectly legit question GT3. SSEs are graded on unit, normally by DWMs or above, who have attended a SSE grading course.

And to pre-empt a follow-up question; no there is no pressure to err on the low side!

Regards

letMfly

[Not Long Now]

It seems, as I read it now, a TCAS RA is a SSE2. Now they occur every now and again usually due to high rate climb/descent. No error on anyone's behalf, no loss of seperation, just life. How are they going to be stopped?

[Vlad the Impaler]

I think that the key phrase in there somewhere is "NATS attributable" so screw ups ARE allowed as long as we didn't cause them !!!!!
write out 200 times
I will correctly separate all aircraft.
on my desk by monday morning or it's after school detention.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Ignorant question here, but who grades SSEs is it SRG or the unit (ie ATC OPS/Training)?

SSEs are graded by the unit, however, they then go to a national moderation panel who recieve a briefing on the incident and will come up with an independent scoring. This is then compared with the unit score and after debate (and adjustment of the panel score if the debate dictates) then the moderation panels scoring will be the final SSE mark which NATS uses for management purposes.

Of course, marks may go up as well as down as a result of any moderation ;)

[GT3]

Was an interesting rating of an incident at LHR in the last few months. Sorry no it wasnt actually an incident, simply an unhappy pilot. However it was graded in the non-tolerable zone.

[Gonzo]

Oh, go on GT3....do tell.....

[GT3]

Surprisingly not one of mine (hey stop laughing at the back!) I'm not sure the "star of screen" involved would like the details on PPrune. Will have to tell you at work.

[Slaphead]

Not Long Now

You ask <<It seems, as I read it now, a TCAS RA is a SSE2. Now they occur every now and again usually due to high rate climb/descent. No error on anyone's behalf, no loss of seperation, just life. How are they going to be stopped?>>

For an event to be graded an SSE 2 in a prescribed separation environment (radar control, radar advisory, procedural control) it has to involve, among other things, a loss of separation where the separation provided was 66% or less of the required separation. If a pilot receives a TCAS RA and responds to it but there is no loss of separation it won't be included in the SSE scheme and therefore won't be an SSE 2.

[Gonzo]

Up to 47% today...interesting...

[Nogbad the Bad]

It's not only the crass statement made about incidents that galls me, it's the :mad: glibly stating that we'll have enough staff by 2007, and that there will be no NATS attributable delays ??

Where the :mad: does that come from ?

Can anyone enlighten me as to exactly where they got their crystal ball ?



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Barry Cuda]

Nogbad, you have to tell them how we achieve these destinations, remember? Where is your crystal ball???:* :* :*

[Not Long Now]

Slaphead, fair enough but...
Not wishing to get distracted but if one a/c is at say FL102, technically maintaining FL100, and another at FL108, technically maintaining FL110, with 600' between them, what does that count as ?

[chiglet]

As an aside....I [and AFAIK, any other ATSA] have not had either a "paper dirt" or a "destination"..do we [actually] count?:rolleyes:
watp,iktch

[Slaphead]

Not Long Now,

You're testing my knowledge of the finer points of the SSE scheme. If no one filed a CA1261/4114 (because the controller concerned had confirmed that each aircraft was maintaining the correct level and was assured that there had been no loss of separation) then there would be no need for a SSE grade.

If the incident was filed as a loss of separation but the subsequent investigation revealed that the Mode C was at fault, albeit within tolerance, then I am guessing that it would probably be an SSE P (potential).

[Mr Chips]

Nogbad Can anyone enlighten me as to exactly where they got their crystal ball ?
I admit it, I am the purveyor of finest crystal fortune telling devices to the board. Above my emporium is the "by appointment" sign. It reads.....

"Balls to NATS Management"
:p

[Nogbad the Bad]

I'll have two please, Mr Chips :D

[Mr Chips]

Encouraged by Nogbad (in person!!!) I went to vote on the Just imagine site... but there was no vote to find! They have changed the poll....

How do you see yourself getting involved with the ’21 Destinations’?


Shaping and delivering them by being part of a ‘Destination team’
9%

Getting actively involved in brainstorming, discussion and assessment sessions but not part of a team.
0%

Being supportive and contributing ideas if I can
6%

Staying aware of what’s going on
6%

I don’t want to get involved
77%

Interesting figures already on this one! (although strangely the page claims to have been last updated in November....)

If you want to enter "Room 21" you will just have to imagine it, as that part of the site is still under construction!!!!!

Chips.. imagining being anywhere but here....

[lobby]

Only totals 98%. the last pole only ever totaled 98% as well !

[Barry Cuda]

Maybe, just maybe, the management may just get the idea that we don't really care...

Either that or they will offer yet another slightly different survey until they get an answer that they want!

[Evil J]

Surely if crystal balls were issued as standard there wouldn't be any SSE's as you'd see the incident coming??

[Nogbad the Bad]

Either that or they will offer yet another slightly different survey until they get an answer that they want!

Blimey, careful Barry or you'll get a job in "management" with ideas like that !!


:E

[chiglet]

Just got the list of "Destinations" at Manch......
One question, we [NATS] have 21 Destinations, but on the List/Diagram, there are only 20.....:confused:
watp,iktch

[Dances with Boffins]

I was at "the business park on the South coast" last week. You should see the "Room 21" they are building there. It'd pay for my salary and my pension....