T & D part of the ATCO salary scale. [Archive]

InspectorGadget

8th Feb 2000, 01:30

SITREP......T & D.

Well, the problem with the T & D scale is that it is really geared for people at the 2 centres.

It was brought in to help stop new people spending 12-18 months in the wings and then moving onto the ATCO 2 scale whilst training and then take 18 months to train - some never validating and a number of pints up the scale.

The airports people are generally the worst off. They (normally!) achieve their first certificate of competence much quicker than centre types. Therfore, they are doing the job and earning far less. For Example, spending 12 months to validate at Heathrow and then doing the same job as an ATCO 2 but only earning a salary of approx £23000. That is probably the biggest problem - at it's extreme. At other (quiteier) units T & D ers can be doing the job earning as little as £21000 for 18 months before getting to ATCO 3.

I think It is a shame that early validation is not rewarded. I know that would sound harsh for some who may have to hold for a training slot but that is often recouped as they are usually the ATCO 2 units.

All of this should be of great concern for NATS and IPMS. I know of 4 pepople who have resigned and gone to other airports over this. One has tactictally refused to continue working hard for their validation as it won't affect their pay (they have 2 years to gain the first certificate of competence.)

Who are losing>>?? Well, those of us having to train, those waiting to train and NATS for training people who leave.

I know you could say theat they have little experience but it is a bitter bill to swallow when you are doing the same job - sat alongside others.

Any comments>???

[This message has been edited by InspectorGadget (edited 07 February 2000).]

surface wind

8th Feb 2000, 02:01

I think the problem arises when the students are split into area and approach courses. The approach course takes 6 months less than the area course. This means that when approach students leave the college they validate a lot quicker than students on the area course. However to make things fair management decided that approach cadets would mark time so that area students from the same course would not be at a finacial dissadvantage from the approach students. Does this make sense. I don't know?

Findo

8th Feb 2000, 03:37

Surface wind - you are on the right track however it was the ATCOs who voted by a very large majority for the negotiated scale which came in with the last WPP agreement. Management did not impose the T & D scale. There were very good reasons behind it's introduction.

The system allows a fair balance between all those who start together as student ATCOs. Those who go on to more difficult units, units with training queues or Area units with a longer initial course are not disadvantaged because of their posting.

If an ATCO arrives at a less busy Approach unit and validates quickly they progress right through the Training and DEVELOPMENT scale. That second word is mightily important.

Those ATCOs who have achieved validation less than 2 years after starting at CATC are still DEVELOPING their skills. Can anyone quote me a case of them being multi discipline valid - APP / APP Rad / Twr before they progress on to the main scale ?

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

intentionally blank

8th Feb 2000, 05:10

Ok it is apocryphal but there are people who are fully valid at a/d but still on the t&d scale. EGPD has adverts in Flight for ATCO jobs at ATCO3 rates but there are ATCO's up there getting t&d money for the same job. It is a farce. Would you do it?
Yes it was voted for but there was a big carrot (remember those bonuses) when the new WPP came in. And a lot of the older ATCO's didn't know (or more likely care) that the cadets to be were getting f**ked.
IMHO it was ill thought out. It doesn't seem right that I sit next to someone who does the same job as me but gets paid >10k LESS. So what if they are still developing their skills. They are valid. They should get paid for it.
If they f**k up they are not going to be able to turn round and say "Ahh yes but I'm not very good - see how much they pay me".

[This message has been edited by intentionally blank (edited 08 February 2000).]

ib, have combined your multi posts :)

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 08 February 2000).]

U R NumberOne

8th Feb 2000, 13:25

I Blank,

You're right that the recent advert in Flight for Aberdeen was a bit ironic, given the fact someone with less experience than a T&D'er could get in at normal ATCO 3 level (In practice unlikely, but still technically possible).

Funniest of all is some of the valid ATCOs on the T&D scale talked (in jest I'm sure) about applying to the ad - they already hold an Aberdeen C of C - what better qualifications could you ask for? :)

Findo

8th Feb 2000, 17:20

Aberdeen was one of the places which sparked the introduction of the T & D part of the scale. Prevously there were students who had waited some years before getting radar training at LATCC, had 200 hours or so and were stopped. They had progressed up the LATCC scale to some very high income levels. When they were posted to Aberdeen they were being trained by ATCOs who had been posted straight in and validated quickly. Those from LATCC were on substantially higher scales and remained on them - causing much complaint from the OJTIs.

Int blank - yes there were bonuses on offer for accepting the whole WPP package but that never meant that we could all ignore the content and complain afterwards that we were coersed into signing.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

[This message has been edited by Findo (edited 08 February 2000).]

InspectorGadget

8th Feb 2000, 18:56

It is criminal to say that the ATCO's wanted it. OK, most of LATCC wanted it, and as a whole, abuse their powers as the most important ATS unit.

"DEVELOPMENT.........." POPPYCOCK!!!!

Those who have DEVELOPED into validation standard should be on the bottom of the ATCO scale immediately.

I echo previous remarks regadring the fact that if a valid T&D er has a nasty they are in as much poop as someone at the top of the scale. No one is saying that they should go on to the top of the scale, just a more appropriate salary.

Anyway, does anyone else have any info regarding my previous post above; How many of these unhappy people are leaving and putting more strain on those of us left behind? Just seems like a little investment could help NATS considerably.

(P.S. It is obvious to see just WHO were subject to T & D !!!!)

Keep smiling!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by InspectorGadget (edited 08 February 2000).]

Findo

9th Feb 2000, 05:46

Inspector...May I input some facts. The vote for WPP was a majority at ALL NATS units excpt one airfield. That cannot be named.

I'm sorry if you think development is not relevent but can I quote you some examples. My unit has 12 sectors. A first valid ATCO will have C of C on 2 or maximum 3 sectors. They are very good on those sectors but do contribute significantly less than the ATCOs valid on 5 or 12 sectors.

At some airfields like Belfast, and Glasgow a very limited number of part valid ATCOs (maximum ONE) can be rostered for night duties. At units like Edinburgh they cannot be rostered for night duties at all. I would contend they still have some development to make them fully functioning members of their Watch.

The fact of the matter is that all NATS ATCOs are members of the same pay scale - we are all on different points. T & D is just an introduction to the scale at all units and takes account of the variety of circumstances.

If the ATCO pay scale was called precisely that and did not highlight any particular "barrier" would it not make more sense to us all ?

I have no doubt that the bottom parts of the scales are too low because we have a real "market forces" element in play at the ATCO 3 level. But don't forget that market forces work for and against if you use them as the only guideline.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

U R NumberOne

9th Feb 2000, 13:37

Did some checking yesterday. One of our T&Der's who validated recently could (given the course) become an OJTI two months before he moves on to full ATCO 3 salary.

I unserstand what Findo is saying with regard to number of C of C's held, but is it not possible for some sort of increase/promotion upon achieving your first ticket?

Being somewhere that has lost a serious number of ATCOs to non-NATS units over the past couple of years (one being a T&Der to my recollection) this treatment of valid controllers will not help our case. NATS must be careful - different units/service providers have advertised for ATCOs every week in Flight so far this year.

captlcc

9th Feb 2000, 17:21

HIAL recently "gave" it's staff a 30+% rise because it cannot get/retain ATCO's, I have heard from a reliable source that Humberside and Norwich are offering "double digit" increases for the same reason. The NATS ATCO 3 scale is looking more and more like the poor relation and I am sure that the constant resignations at my unit will continue.

How many of the Southampton guys/gals will want to stay there as NATS ATCO 4's???

T&D is fine but when you get a "Validation" you should move to a better scale.

My Tuppence anyway

[This message has been edited by captlcc (edited 09 February 2000).]

InspectorGadget

9th Feb 2000, 19:41

Findo........it's Mr InspectorGadget to you.....!! (JOKE)

How can you possibly say that those with only 2 or 3 C of C's "Contribute COnsiderably Less than the ATCO's valid on 5 or 12 sectors". Are there any PPRUNERS reading who have the mimimum C of C's? Frankly, that is just the type of old school tie/job for life opinion that has caused NATS it's problems.

Do those with just the mimimum number of C of C's have more time off than you, Findo?? I wager that they do not and they contribute in shifting the traffic. I agree that they are less usuable on the watch due to their limitations, but is that not a management problem? - It is not the problem of the validated controller.

You questioned how many units had FULL valid Twr/App qualified T & D ers. Well, I can put my hand on heart and say that the following units have had such staff within the past 2 years:

EGLF, EGFF, EGBB, EGLL, EGKK.

The T & D scale does not, as you say, take into account the variety of circumstances at different units, or ATCO's at these units would not be on the T & D scale!

To close, let me say this: None of the T & D ers I know have any problems recognising that they are still learning. All they are saying is that they feel they deserve more money when they get that first validation.

Tell your friends and get some T & D ers on line asap! These are the future of the company and can help us out! The most worrying case as I mentioned before was that one person tactically refused to validate early - there was no (apart from personal pride) reason to do so.

All this = Annoyed OJTI's, Big backlog in trg and more nightshifts for those in Glasgow!!!!!!

All for the price of a little financial reward.

I have lost the will to live.......!!!!!!

IG

InspectorGadget

9th Feb 2000, 19:54

AND ANOTHER THING.......!!

There are, at some units, some ex Area controllers who didn't validate at LATCC and then worked as ATSA's for a couple of years. Well, NATS in it's wisdom has given them a short refresher course and pushed them back out as tower only controllers!!

Are they on the T & D scale?? A number of years ago the following happened:

Mr (or Mrs) X arrives at an Airport with a tower rating only (That is, NO Approach rating) and earning ATCO 2 pay. This person then received instruction from his OJTI who was on the new (at that time) T & D scale!

This person FAILED to validate after 12 months and became an ATSA again - having never been a validated controller!

No one has a problem with these people - in fact my experience of them is fine - but it is just another example of an anomaly in the pay scales.

Mmmmmmmmm............everything is just dandy - NOT! There are more opportunites than ever right now to earn more outside NATS which is good. However, if all the juniors go, I'll never get my posting!!!!

IG

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"I don't get up at 0430 Hrs for anything other than the money!"

Wot No Morale

10th Feb 2000, 19:29

Well y'all, I AM on the training and development scale and wish to tell you this:

We have just had an ex area fella posted in who failed at LATCC. He has been an ATSA3 for 2 years and did his 'Refresher' training for tower only last April.

He arrived at our unit last week and does not have an approach rating yet.

He is being trained and earning some £5,500 more than a validated (OK, Twr only so far) controller with an approach rating. Is this fair? This is the f**cked up company that we have to work for and I am totally p**sed off with it.

Good to see that the union is as useless as ever. No wonder their are little or no student members.

Us on the training and development scale should get up and go. If there's no new people then the old timers who don't give a damn about us will never get their early retirement and golden handshake. Ha.

Yours Sincerely,

JN

Mr Chips

10th Feb 2000, 20:31

Originally posted by Wot No Morale:
Well y'all, I AM on the training and development scale and wish to tell you this:

This is the f**cked up company that we have to work for and I am totally p**sed off with it.

JN

Actually JN (Or Alan) you do NOT have to work for the company. I am not defending unfair practice (far from it) but if you don't like the company that pays your salary, and pays for your training RESIGN. That is the freedom that we have as individuals. Even with all the bad parts of the T&D scale, and the amount of stress/responsibilty that goes with the job, it pays better than cooking burgers in McDonalds.

Chips
(Yes, I do work for NATS)

Bugs

10th Feb 2000, 20:38

mmmmmmmm.........interesting dicussion.

Well let me let a point loose. The length of time that a student needs to remain on the T&D scale, fits in perfectly with the timescale for validation at LATCC. What you mean all the other units in the UK must submit to the combined will of the biggest unit in the country? (I like asking myself questions) Should this really suprise anyone. So unless the majority at LATCC want to see a change, and I'm sure they do not, it will be around for a long time to come. Is the T&D scale fair then...NO

Findo

10th Feb 2000, 23:36

WNM - one of the reasons the T & D scale was introduced was that it was common place for students to be at LATCC for years and never achieve a validation - they then got posted to ATCO 3 posts and could be earning vastly more than those who were training them. This cannot now happen with students.

As far as the individual you quote is concerned they have joined the ATCO scale at a salary they were previuosly earning as an experienced ATSA. Would you think we could recruit them if we cut their pay ?

Nobody is defending the levels of pay against the non NATS units. The T & D scale is a mechanism for ensuring fairness amongst all those entering as trainees. The level of reward is set by management.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

FooFighter

11th Feb 2000, 03:23

Regardless of why the T&D system may have been set up, the fact is that is an ill-considered system. Ab-initio ATCOs posted to airports were primarily "losing out" as it is geared towards the centres. However, I know of at least one valid controller at LATCC who is still on T&D, so the problem will begin to bite there too. I wonder how fast it will change when the LATCC numbers start to increase...

I accept the comment that T&D ATCOs are "developing" but if that is the case, all T&D ATCOs should be removed from the formal rostering and allowed to "train" and "develop" by chosing busy sessions etc. At my unit within a week of validation I became "roster critical". What happened to development? But if we remove all valid T&Ds from the roster, the unit would struggle, big time.

I am surprised that there are situations where T&D controllers are OJTIs. At my unit the management are well aware that no T&Ds will act as OJTIs until they hit the ATCO payscale. Why? Well, if we're not good enough to be classed as ATCOs and paid as such, surely we CANNOT be mentor material, can we? And what about the the OJTI extra increment? It doesn't work on T&D scale. So you get the least experienced guys training others and doing it for jack. Great system (not).

The bottom line for every T&D ATCO I know us this : if I am "good enough" to exercise the privileges of the ATCO licence, I am good enough to be paid on the ATCO payscale. This isn't about greed, this is about recognition. We have lost three controllers "recently" partly because non-NATS units will recognise them as ATCOs (not "T&D ATCOs") and pay them "what they are worth".

But that's just my view!

InspectorGadget

11th Feb 2000, 10:35

Mr Chips - are you sponsored by MCDONALDS??!?!?

Is your brother MR BIGMAC!!!!!!!

Interesting debate........ I understand that the union is looking into the issue of T & D.

Guess it's a case of 'Standby to Standby' for them.

Time for a new topic??????

Findo

11th Feb 2000, 12:34

Foo. Dont think it is possible that ATCOs on T & D part of the scale can be OJTI. The scale was only 4 six monthly increments when it was introduced. Not sure what it is now but minimum time for OJTI is still supposed to be 2 years from initial validation.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

Chatterbox

14th Feb 2000, 05:05

Is this purely a financially motivated thread or is it down to the worth of an ATCO?
I must admit I can't really work it out so far.

If it's about the fact that the T&D scale penalises junior ATCOs then I'm afraid I have little sympathy. I don't remember getting an accomodation allowance to get my license. I seem to remember getting paid about £400 a month and having to pay about out £280 of it in rent.

"Mr" Inspectorgadget
when you mention fully valid controllers what exactly did you mean?
If you meant valid on every sector/area/console/seat at the unit then I'm afraid you were horribly mistaken!
At at least one of the units you quoted I'm afraid that "Hand on heart" I know that no trainee has been fully validated.

When the new T&D scale was introduced it (more or less) made every ATCO, trainee or otherwise, roughly the same ammount better off over a ten year period.

The worth of an ATCO is a whole new topic that I do not intend to start, but may if prompted, and should maybe best left alone.

InspectorGadget

15th Feb 2000, 15:13

Chatterbox (Mr or Mrs??)

It is neither!! This is not about money, or an ATCO's worth. (yes, we could be hear all day on that one!).

Are you not concerned at the number of young controllers leaving after early validation(whilst on T&D) for jobs with a better remuneration package?

Surely, that is the issue. They are finding it hard to stay when other units (Non NATS) are paying equal or better money. I can cope with wingeing trainees, but trainees who have left soon after validation simply means that OJTI's will have to train another new person. This is MY point. Why doesn't NATS have a retainer for these new controllers?

I hope that you can see wher I can coming from. Pay them peanuts if you like, but don't be surprised when they leave for more money. (Pah, the youth of today!)

By the way, you can now be an OJTI after just 1 years validation, subject to unit requirements etc. Therefore, units like Aberdeen have T&D OJTI's. Simple. (Don't forget that at airports the bod out of the college spends three months as a student still BEFORE reaching the T&D Scale. Total time = 2 yrs and three months = most airfields having fully qualified people before they reach the ATCO scale.)

Bored with this now....... somebody please start an INTERESTING topic!

[This message has been edited by InspectorGadget (edited 15 February 2000).]

soggy.chips

15th Feb 2000, 23:42

T & D equals cheap ATCO's for 2 plus years. Not on ATCO 2 or 3 until the expiration of their T & D contract. Check the pay scale, you will see what I mean!

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Pass the salt please.

FooFighter

17th Feb 2000, 00:19

Findo, so did your original question get answered? As you can tell, for those of us on T&D it is a very contentious issue.

----
Foo Fighter

Findo

17th Feb 2000, 03:53

FooF - No I dont think I ever got an answer. lots of people have rightly complained about the salary levels at ATCO 3 and some ATCO 2. Nobody has really given any serious debate to the T & D part of the salary scale because I believe few of them understand why it is there.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

Concrete

19th Feb 2000, 20:07

5 months left on T+D with 3 vaildations, I feel a few points should be made (even if they have been made before).

We all agreed to T+D when we joined the company. I didn't give it a second thought when I started as I had no idea if I would even get that far.

T+D affects only a very few number of people and was voted in as part of the general pay etc. agreement, so most of the people who voted "for" it weren't affected by and and understandably didn't care about it.

People chopped from the NATS college after getting a tower rating can and have got jobs as tower onlys at pay rates well above the top of the T+D scale.

Valid T+D controllers can and have left the company and go somewhere else, so wasting very large amounts of the companys money (and good on them I say if that's what they want to do).

Where I work, management seem to be on our side, while those involved higher up simply don't care. It's that attitude that annoys me most; far more than the money involved. Last year, we had to fight just to get what we signed. The company gave us the wrong contract to sign and then decided not to honour these contracts, imposing another 3 months T+D on us because of their mistake. I said I was quite happy to work to what I signed but if they tried to do that, I would leave. The person I told didn't seem to be bothered.

It's a bad system, but so was the previous one. Someone needs to find something in the middle of the two.

Spotter

20th Feb 2000, 00:55

As a valid T&D ATCO I find it intensely irritating that I am still earning less than I would be had I stayed as an ATSA 2. Incidentally if any of the other ATCO's at my unit want to tell me how much less I contribute to the unit I'd be happy to offer a smack in the gob in return.

Findo

20th Feb 2000, 19:05

Concrete. I accept what you say about the pay rates on the bottom of the ATCO scale. That is a legitimate complaint which management can address at any time. Next time your manager sympathises with you ask him what he is going to do about it. Management set the pay rates and are going into negotiation right now for the next pay round.

The T & D part of the scale is a mechanism for the lower parts of the pay scale to stop people who have achieved no validations progressing high up the scale (until they validate). That was the intent because of the previous system which allowed unrestricted climb up the scale no matter what you achived. The mechanism is still valid and would be so if the bottom of the scale started at 40K. See your manager and ask him for the NATS airports view on getting better pay rates.

All that you say about tower only non NATS pay etc is very true. But that is a comparison with the whole pay scale and not just the bottom parts of it. Again the problem lies in the bottom of the scale not reflecting the market rates for ATCOs. We are told often enough that our costs have to reflect market rates, competitors etc but when we ask about pay at market rate we don't get an answer.

As far as those higher up the scale not caring ? Maybe you are right for a large number but the collective lot of ATCOs is always being improved whenever possible. It is also a fact that every ATCO spends longer at the top of the scale than they do getting there and far, far longer than any part of the scale like the T & D points. Like it or not the average ATCO gives little consideration to those less well off. That is why any attempt to split Airports off from Area would be a disaster for all. Next would be a regional split and then individual unit bargaining. It has happened in every other national company and would be one of the first things to come in if privatisation succeeds.

Spotter. Good point about being an ATSA. It has always been the same. I went through it and so has almost every other ex ATSA. What is your solution ?

Ask your manager when they are going to raise the salary scale so no valid ATCO earns less than an unlicensed ATSA. If your unit has open management meetings ask them for an explanation. We would all like to hear the answer. I would lay money the airports answer would not be to increase YOUR pay scale. Contributing less to your unit ? Don't know where you are but at any airport you will do either no night duties or a significantly fewer number. You still get the same shift pay. Maybe the rest of the ATCOs love their night duties.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

Concrete

20th Feb 2000, 20:36

Just to clarify what i meant by "other ATCOs not careing".

T+D was a small part of a big deal that affected no-one who actually voted for it, except possibly for a few people at the NATS college. So the vast majority of voters gave it no thought. Now, at least where I work, they all think its a bad idea and think we should get paid more.

Just wanted to clear that up as I don't want to offend anyone unintentionally.

Spotter

20th Feb 2000, 21:48

Findo that's my point exactly...I work the same roster as everyone else on the watch. No less nights than anyone, and I spend as much of each shift actually plugged in as the rest. So I think I earn my UHP at the same rate as everyone else don't you?

Findo

21st Feb 2000, 02:18

Spotter. I accept your point but you are almost unique. If your unit has more than tower / GMC then I have never heard of such a situation.

If this is the case then you qualify as an anomoly. Not a lot of comfort but similarly not too unusual over the decades.

The salient point is that if you started on day 1 with all your course colleagues where are you all in posting plus 3 years ? If you have all validated and you are paid less then you have a grievance. If you are all paid the same (and are unhappy) then you all have a reason to moan at management.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

s'lick

23rd Feb 2000, 03:03

Before this topic dies a natural death, I would like to add the following points.

s'lick

23rd Feb 2000, 03:12

one - The T&D scale was introduced as part of the 1997 WPP agreement as NATS management were fed up paying non-valid ATCO's the ATCO 2/3 scale.
This restructuring of money "released" funds from the pot for things such as the early retirement scheme.
The T&D scale is NOT perfect and with hindsight a "better" solution (if there is one) could have been found.
To me, the point where NATS f***ed up the most was with the implementation of the T&D scale that made it apply to CATC students that were "expecting" significant salaries when they finished their courses, only to be told they would be getting significantly less. This, I think, applied to three or four courses and their disharmony at this is the result of poor union membership around that time from Students. Their anger spread through word of mouth to other courses that were at the college around them and only now are student IPMS membership rates showing a significant increase again.
I don't know if a more amiable all-round solution can be found for this scale but I think that is where the energies must now lie and just carry on bitching about the past.
There - finished!

p.s. If anyone can correct me on any of the above then please do, but this is the way I see it and this is only my opinion after all.....