BAA forced to accept 50% of Ross - Ryanair case

[Flughaven]

News Release
21.12.04
RYANAIR WELCOME COURT OF APPEAL DECISION
TO FORCE BAA STANSTED TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY
FOR WHEELCHAIR SERVICES







Ryanair, Europe’s No.1 low fares airline today (Tuesday, 21st December 2004) welcomed the Court of Appeal’s decision to overturn the previous County Court ruling in the Ross case, and finally establish the responsibility of the British Airport Authority to provide for wheelchair assistance for passengers.

The Court of Appeal’s decision establishes a 50/50 responsibility upon BAA Stansted and the airlines for the provision of wheelchair services through the terminal building at Stansted Airport. Ryanair is disappointed that the Court of Appeal did not establish that the BAA was 100% responsible - as is the case with the owners of all other public buildings - for wheelchair access, however the Court of Appeal’s decision to clearly impose a 50% responsibility on the BAA will be welcomed by all airlines using BAA airports, as well as by disabled passengers.

Today’s judgement concluded that:

The original County Court judge was “wrong to acquit BAA Stansted of responsibility”
BAA Stansted’s “failure is a serious one”
BAA Stansted “unlawfully discriminated against Mr. Ross”
In keeping with this announcement today, Ryanair accordingly will be reducing its wheelchair levy by 50%, and we will be continuing our campaign to persuade the BAA monopoly airports in London to provide a free of charge wheelchair assistance service to the disabled, in line with custom and practice at 87 of Ryanair’s 93 European airports, and also in line with the current European Union draft disability paper which states “there is a strong case for making the airport manager responsible for organising and financing the assistance of people with reduced mobility who need to use air transport”. Ryanair fully supports and endorses this view.

Welcoming today’s victory at the Court of Appeal, Ryanair’s Head of Communications, Paul Fitzsimmons, said:

“We welcome the decision by the Court of Appeal to clearly and unambiguously impose a responsibility upon the British Airports Authority to provide for wheelchair access through its terminal buildings. Today’s decision vindicates Ryanair’s decision to appeal the Ross case, and highlights again that Ryanair is fighting on behalf of disabled passengers to force those few airport managers, such as the BAA, to provide free of charge wheelchair access in a manner similar to most other European airports. Ryanair will continue to fight to lower the cost of air travel for all passengers and it is not unreasonable that the very rich owners of terminal buildings such as BAA Stansted should be responsible for providing free of charge wheelchair access through these complicated terminal buildings for those with limited mobility”.

[Del Prado]

Is that a Ryanair press release ?
I understand BAA don't interpret the ruling that way.

[moggiee]

Are the wheels starting to come off at Ryanair?

There is certainly plenty of negative publicity at present!

Ahhhhhhhhh, shame.

[Flughaven]

Yes it was from the Ryanair site. Here is also one from the RTE news site though just to confirm it.


50-50 ruling in Ryanair wheelchair case

December 21, 2004 11:19
The Court of Appeal in London has ruled that airlines and airports share the responsibility to provide wheelchairs for disabled passengers.

Ryanair was trying to overturn an earlier judgment that it discriminated against a disabled man who was charged £18 for the use of a wheelchair at London's Stansted airport. The man, Bob Ross, was awarded more than £1,300 in damages by a county court.

Ryanair lost its appeal that the claim against it should be dismissed, but the judges ruled that Stansted also unlawfully discriminated against the traveller and should share the liability over damages and interest.


Ryanair said it welcomed the ruling, adding that it would reduce its wheelchair levy by 50%, though it expressed disappointment that the court did not establish that BAA, the owner of Stansted, was 100% responsible.

[brabazon]

Surely Ryanair should not have to have a "wheelchair levy" at all since it should be a cost borne by the airline as all others do. Given that Ryanair carry somewhere around 24 million even reducing their levy by 50% will gain them a nice tidy sum (sorry can't find what the actual charge is, but will update this when I do).

ps please tell Ryanair that the BAA does not stand for the British Airports Authority anymore.

[Max Autobrake]

Its not much of a service... I waited for an hour and a half the other day to have my (pre-booked) wheelchair passenger taken away (at 0100).

The more things change, the more they remain the same...
:{

[Cyrano]

Of course they shouldn't have to have a wheelchair levy, but it's an elegant way of screwing some more money out of the punters.

According to the Ryanair news release archive (see 6 Feb 2004 under "News" on www.ryanair.com), they are charging £0.35 or €0.50 per passenger sector as a wheelchair levy, presumably now to be halved. They also say that the cost of providing wheelchair assistance at STN (which they have to pay) is £18.00 (which I assume will now also be halved).

So that levy covers 1 in 36 of all FR passengers needing wheelchair assistance at an airport that doesn't provide it to FR for free. And I'm sure that's a perfectly reasonable ratio - I mean, if on average there were fewer than five wheelchair passengers on every full 737-800, that would mean Ryanair was profiteering, and that could never be... could it? :confused:

[055166k]

Hang on a moment! I'm a regular RYR passenger, why should I have to subsidise another passenger who requires special handling?......perhaps said passenger should restrict his/her travel to airlines that provide freeby wheelchairs......bit more homework before travel methinks.
Don't understand how BAA can own the terminal but not be responsible for wheelchair transit from desk to gate.....I see they re-assume responsibility back on the tarmac to levy parking and gate charges. My tickets only seem to be valid for air travel and not for ground transportation, furthermore the massive portion of what I pay seems to be in airport taxes and charges, with RYR only getting the tiniest fraction of my final bill.

[Sir George Cayley]

May I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Safe, Prosperous and Peaceful New Year.

More importantly I hope nothing befalls you in 2005 that means you become a wheelchair user.

I would be so upset to think of you "sponging" like those of us who have no choice.

Sir George Cayley

[Idunno]

055166k that was a really ignorant and stupid thing to say.
Either you are a wind up merchant or a tosser.

Methinks the latter.

[Roghead]

I wrote on this subject on the original thread at the time of the first ruling,and was saddened but not altogether surprised at the lack of understanding of some able bodied travellers,so for their enlightenment include a part of that post.....
<Some posters seem to suggest that some disabled passengers are faking their condition and milking the situation.They should pull their weight a little more and pay for any service received.They may be surprised to know that my wife totally agrees with their views.She is mortified at the attention she gets and horrified at the problems her condition causes other people.This worries her to the extent that she will walk,climb stairs and stand in line whenever possible. I, however, am only too aware just how much this small statement of independance is seriously affecting her declining strength and ability to cope with simple things.......like breathing. The loss of self esteem suffered by the disabled, (and the need for constant attention from other people is a major factor in this loss of independance), is a situation which the normal able bodied passenger cannot begin to understand.
May I humbly suggest that before making rash statements or reaching over hasty judgements a little thought and consideration is used.>
All that being said we do not mind paying for a service but find the Ryannair attitude less than acceptable so we choose to travel with "real" airlines as long as they exist.

[tony norman]

055166k - i think you may want to edit your post you ignorant little man.

i am a right leg below amputee who uses a wheel chair for obvious reasons..... and for you to say what you have done and accuse me of being a 'sponger' and suggest i look else where for my flight i think is disgracful.

i only read these forum so wasnt a member until 5 mins ago when i saw your post and there was no way i was gonna let it go..... and im not gonna hide behind some handle you can see who is calling you a good for nothing ignorant offensive ****e.

i do hope you or your family never have to suufer the indignaty (sp) that being a wheelchair user can bring..... then again.... maybe i do! and FYI i am a PPL in training so im not some oik who just reads random forum.... i love the world of aviation and people like you just wanna make me sick.

rant over.

oh.... and on another note... my fiance is (as of 4 weeks ago) currently working for wheelchair services at STD. hhmmmm..... heard some very interesting things both for and against. so dont now try and tell me i havent got a clue what im talking about.

[surely not]

A couple of points to the self righteous anti ryanairs amongst us:-

Full fare carriers have always said that the provision of Wheelchair costs are included in their overall ticket prices; in other words they levy a little extra on each ticket just the same as Ryanairs levy. So why is it wrong for Ryanair to do this?



Tony Norman, nobody in the industry has anything but understanding for people who travel by air despite their having a serious and genuine disability. Unfortunately there are also a considerable number of people who have no disability but still insist on requesting Wheelchair assistance, presumably so that they don't have to walk too far, and they also think they will be whisked through Customs and Immigration faster. One of the biggest wastes of resource/manpower for the wheelchair companies is getting a request from the inbound aircraft for a number of wheelchairs to meet on arrival, only for the pax to decide that they'll walk!! This selfishness by able bodied people delays the resource/manpower getting to an aircraft that has someone who genuinely needs a wheelchair.

It is a haphazard guesstimate for the Wheelchair companies in trying to assess staffing and resource needs. Some days there will be plenty of passengers needing assistance, on others very few, but they won't know which type of day it is until the day of operation.

It is the easiest service in the business to adopt a superior 'they couldn't organise a party in a brewery' attitude to, but then most of those that adopt that attitude have NIL experience of it



FYI Tony.... Is it more likely your fiance works at STN? STD is the 3 letter code for Mayo Guerrero Apt in Venezuela. Picky I know but it does make a difference if the wrong 3 letter code is used.

[tony norman]

FYI Tony.... Is it more likely your fiance works at STN? STD is the 3 letter code for Mayo Guerrero Apt in Venezuela. Picky I know but it does make a difference if the wrong 3 letter code is used.

yeah - sorry. i had my 'im annoyed fingers on' and had typo's all over the place......

[Roghead]

Surely not. You sound like a pompous twit, but surely not. Try reading my post again( or for the first time):(

[tony norman]

i agree with you on the fakers point. my other half has already seen loads of it..... assistance upto the gate and then they just up and walk off!!! what the hel!?!? the problem she has (not told directly but i get this impression) is staffing levels.... it seems she doesnt have enough people to do all the 'taking' and 'fetching' but as you say.... how on earth can your predict how many people will need that service.... yeah i know you have your bre-booked but what do you do on days when its quite.... send you workforce home? no... you just employ less people because others wise you'd be throwing your money away and eating at profits whilst staff eat in the canteen! at the end of the day a service is provided, but no service is perfect.... we dont call a cab on a friday night and when told 'its gonna be 1 hour' hot the roof cos thats no good enough rar de rar.... because how can the compnay predict a busier than normal day? they cant...... its the same for wheelchair services..... anyhow.... im going abit off topic hear because it was copst we were talking about not man power.....

Roghead: is that aimed at me?? or did my post get the first as it were??

[surely not]

What a strange response Roghead :confused:

I have re-read your post and I think my post backs up your point indirectly. I have experienced first hand people who ask for a wheelchair to the gate, then go off on their own to do the duty free shopping, arrive back laden with packages announcing 'that's why I need the WCHR, couldn't walk that far with so much shopping, I'd drop some of it!'. I have spoken with cabin crew who have taken time and trouble to arrange for the flight deck to radio ahead with requests for wheelchairs, only for the pax to see that they have arrived at a stand close by the Terminal and they have then dashed off the aircraft. These are not people in any way shape or form similar to your wife, these are pax who are in no way inconvenienced health wise and who are abusing the system set up for the benefit of people like your wife.

[Rananim]

Sir George,
Nice reply.People like that need to be put in their place very quickly.

[daw]

What a shame that the Court of Appeal didn't see fit to order Ryanair to hand over to BAA 50% of the revenues it has been collecting from punters travelling from STN - less the usual low cost "admin" charge of course :)

[Roghead]

Thanks Surely Not. I retreat back to my corner. Unfortunately my wife will walk( from her chair) at times when she thinks it will "help" but will then collapse after 50 yds. I get annoyed with her, the world and if I were to think about it, the fakers who give her a bad name.
However I'll still avoid MOL airways when travelling with my wife but will accept the drawbacks (but cheap fares) when travelling alone.:)

[Seat1APlease]

Those criticising 055166K obviously feel that wheelchairs should be provided free of charge, although that presumably means spread evenly across the whole operation and therefore shared by all passengers, but a few questions spring to mind.

For many years most, but not all airlines, charge extra for pre-booked oxygen if needed in flight by passengers with lung disease, there has been no uproar over this, but how is someone with one leg different from someone with emphysema, should they not be treated equally?

Airlines charge extra if a passenger with a leg in plaster requires two seats to return from his skiing holiday, yet if another passenger has twins or is elderly they will supply a meet and assist service to escort them through the terminal free of charge, why?

Tall passengers often ask for a seat with extra legroom and get indignant when the charter airlines now put a surcharge on the front seats with the extra leg room. Should this be provided free since they cannot help their height any more than a disabled person can help being disabled?

What about the overweight, whilst this is often self inflicted should a wider business class seat be provided without extra cost?

Then we come to those who are so disabled that they need a stretcher and an ambulance and nine seats removing for the stretcher kit, should this be provided free of charge?

Doesn't disability allowance include an element to cover the extra costs involved in travel, such as needing a taxy rather than taking the bus, should this be taken into account?

I have no strong views either way but it is very difficult to deal with discrimination against one group without being unfair to another, but the current situation does seem to be inconsistent with the way it treats these matters.

[tony norman]

you do have a point.... but i would also like to add that i dont mind paying a little extra for the times i might need assistance. sorry i didnt make that clear..... on the whole, most people i meet at my limb centre wouldnt mind paying that bit extra to make life that little bit easier......

Those criticising 055166K obviously feel that wheelchairs should be provided free of charge

not at all....... i just didnt like the way he called us spongers.... and the way that his post reads is that we are in the wrong for being disabled.

Doesn\'t disability allowance include an element to cover the extra costs involved in travel, such as needing a taxy rather than taking the bus, should this be taken into account?

again you are right........ so a small levy isnt a problem.... at the end of the day no-one likes to pay more than they have to... overweight, tall, stechered..... i dont know to much about the previous case in question but i dont thinkits was just the ££ charge was it?? i thought he was treated a bit \'not nice\' shall we say?? please dont shot me down for saying that because as i say im not sure of the facts 100%

[sky9]

I presume that the cost of wheelchairs at STN will now be £36 with the airline paying £18. :D

[Lou Scannon]

Remembering the first time this was aired, I found myself in the strange position of supporting Ryanair. I believe that it is the airports duty to get the passengers to the aircraft whether it's by 'bus, on foot or in a wheelchair.

No airport seems to have direct access to the gates, they all take you on a voyage of discovery that is in reality, a glorified shopping opportunity from which they benefit.

There are those who flagrantly abuse the wheelchair system. Perhaps the Blue badge parking scheme could be used to identify the disabled.

Those that do qualify should certainly receive every help, but expecting the airline to supply a ticket for £30 and throw in a free wheelchair at each end is being a bit unrealistic. It should come out of the airport budget as they have often created the need for transportation.

[Runway 31]

While being sympathetic to persons with a disbility, I don,t know much about the case in question so can anyone tell me what the person concerned did at either end of the journey without a wheelchair.

I would have thought that if they needed a wheelchair to get around the airport they would have needed one all the time. Disabled persons with their own wheelchair flying with Ryanair do not pay any more than able bodied passengers. It is BAA who apply the costs to the passengers using their facility and who require to be provided with a wheelchair.

[terrywilcox]

Just a brief comment. I worked on the coal face underground,and obviously if someone was injured (and this was frequent),a stretcher would be required. I can tell you that many men refused to get on a stretcher,and would rather struggle,because the stretcher meant being carried by 4 mates.
I fully sympathise with Tony Norman,but the suggestion of following the car badges is riddled with fraud. We have all seen it. We also have the situation of very able bodied people using disabled slots at supermarkets etc. As has been said,a genuine person dislikes having to be "cossetted". I also believe costs should be bourne by the airport. In that way,we all make a contribution,as we do now in the real world. Nothing is really free.

[ZFT]

055166k,

You will also be ‘pleased’ to know that if you are a motorist you also subsidise my father (who is an amputee) to drive across the QE bridge on his way back from Stansted.

Life’s a bitch eh!!!

[Mr Chips]

Tony Norman I have re-read 05166K's post, and I can't see what you can see not at all....... i just didnt like the way he called us spongers.... and the way that his post reads is that we are in the wrong for being disabled.

He doesn't use the word spongers, and I don't read it as criticising you for being disabled.

The way I see it, "someone" needs "special handling" for any reason, and expects the cost to be borne by the airline. Ok, where doe sthe airline get that money from? Simple answer - the other passengers, so if an airline charges a levy, or covers the cost in the ordinary ticket prices all the other passengers are subsidising those that need special handling. There, no mention of disability. I think you will find that he was merely puting an alternative point of view.

Newsflash - low cost airlines don't provide full services that you might expect from the full cost carriers....

[terrywilcox]

I take the point re locos. If a person is taking a cheap flight,say £10,and they have to provide any facility,which costs them £18,it just seems inequitable. They are,in effect,paying the passenger £8 to fly. The point is,someone obviously has to provide the facility,and someone has to pay. It is unfair for the loco to carry the cost,but if they do,it is again obvious that the charge must be passed on in some way to the passengers. Mainline carriers have a comfortable profit margin,which could cover the cost,but again,all passengers pay. I question the cost of £18. Why don't airports keep a number of wheelchairs at the airport,as do hospitals. Indeed many supermarkets provide electric wheelchairs,free of charge,which make the disabled person completely independent. I see no need to contract services in,and most disabled people do not travel alone,hence no need for another person to be employed to push it. As I said previously,nothing is free. We all pay taxes to provide these,and other facilities,and I for one don't mind. I just feelk very fortunate to be able bodied,and incidentally would not mind pushing a wheelchair myself anywhere,for anyone. Few people would if they were aware of the need for help. Problem with this is the disabled people I know are very reluctant to ask for help. They feel it takes away their independence. I apologise for the long message,and hope my points are not misunderstood. A very happy xmas to all of you.

[055166k]

A goodly selection of responses...I think we can say with some clarity that to abandon a wheelchair user at an airline check-in desk and then disclaim all further responsibility is downright despicable.
The majority of you have made the case against BAA crystal clear.
Out of the last £25 total charge that I paid, RYR got less than £1.....they are virtually tax collectors for second and third parties.
I couldn't afford to fly anywhere before the LoCo's came along, and now they're under attack I feel some sympathy.....do you seriously consider that they don't have a point?

[brabazon]

I would question how much of the £24 in taxes and charges actually gets passed on, yes APD if you have travelled but not if you haven't, airport charges - well it depends on the deal Ryanair have with the airport, as for the wheelchair levy it just goes into the bank along with the other money.....

[055166k]

Thank you for your considered interpretation of what I actually wrote, my intention was to stimulate informed debate.
I have received heavy flak from all around....and I am absolutely genuine in my wish to apologise to any reader who took offence; I do not single out disabled persons for special apology because I do not consider disabled persons to be in some sort of separate sub-category of humanity that would require such....rather I consider a disabled person as a person first and foremost.....anything else being thus irrelevant.
This whole wheelchair thing has only ever been about responsibility....I am appalled at the lengths a BRITISH company will go to in order to divest itself of its humanitarian responsibility towards those requiring a wheelchair.
Merry Christmas!