Help from the Gods please (sorry - a bit long!)

[IFollowRoads]

Arggghh!! Sorry to have to ask for this, but I've only recently got an IR :) , and the training had absolutely nothing about how to plan for this lot! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

I was going from White Waltham to Basel (EGLM to LFSB) in a single, the forecast was a bit on the less than pleasant side, with the freezing level at FL040 in the UK (nice and high over the channel and further south tho..) I filed EGLM N0135 VFR DCT WOD/N0135F035 IFR DCT MAY DCT WIZAD/N0135F050 DCT BNE DCT CTL DCT ARSIL DCT RLP DCT RLP DCT LUL DCT - the idea was to stay out of the way of stuff departing Heathrow, and climb when the freezing level was high enough, and to get high over the channel. After that, its more or less direct, avoiding the notamed Brienne le Chateau and the seriously high ground.

The Brussels behmouth returns this pretty much as requested, apart from it's put the climb to F050 immediately after WOD and (claimed to) put me in A1, as well as inserting BELDI and KOVIN between BNE and CTL. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif Unfortunately, these last two aren't listed on the low level aerads, but a call to Brussels got the coordinates for them - not in itself a major problem, but i) the base of A1 is FL090, why did it route A1 when the planned/given FL is below its base, and ii) A1 is only about 10 miles from Heathrow, and given that R/W 27 was in use, do you really want GA stuff messing around climbing through the heavies departure level (guessing that the westward departures will be on a Compton SID)

This lot aside, which is hopefully just a matter of understanding how the Brussels machine works, the plan went to junk! The very nice gentleman in London Control kept me to F030 and explained that area transits (errr - didn't want a transit? :rolleyes: ) were not normally allowed below F090, and then on reaching MID climbed me to F070 - as it turned out, not a problem, as the cloud had finished by just over F041, but it messed up all the TAS and W/V calculations for the rest of the route. After that, it was direct LYD-TRACA (ie omit the MAY/WIZAD bit), then direct BNE-CMB-REM, each time the subsequent waypoint being given on a position report overhead the last. Thanks to GPS it wasn't too much of a problem, but drawing lines etc single pilot IFR isn't much fun, and I'm glad there was an autopilot which could at least keep it straight whilst I worked out what was going on!

Anyway, main question: How should I select a route that I stand a chance of actually flying when the airways are too high? (or not going where I want them!)

[This message has been edited by IFollowRoads (edited 15 May 2001).]

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I cannot comment on the flight planning because I don't have the vaguest idea about such things, nor do I know how Brussels functions (does anyone?).

My only comments are - you cannot fly Flight Levels down around 3.5-4 under the London TMA as the Transition Altitude is 6000 ft and it's extremely unlikely that FL40 would ever be above that (maybe you have to file FLs on the plan - I don't know. If you do, ignore this).. Secondly, at that distance from Heathrow a tiddler climbing into CAS would present major problems for ATC. The whole place simply isn't geared up for "low and slow" traffic. I would suggest it best to stay outside CAS with, say, Farnborough and then join down on the south coast.

My pilot and area control friends will now take my theories completely to pieces!!!

[eyeinthesky]

I think you need to differentiate between the flight planning and the actual flying! I know the two are supposed to tie together, but I have also come across the problem of getting one thing accepted by Brussels when I know in practice the other will happen. in my case I filed to join CAS at Norry and route to EGJJ IFR at FL70 (I know this is incorrect semicircular). The plan was rejected by Brussels. I found out by ringing Heathrow that the rejection was due to Brussels thinking the minimum level on R41 north of SAM is FL80. I KNOW it isn't because I used to control it! The only way to get the plan accepted was to file FL80 and then request FL70 with London when airborne.

In your case it seems that the computer operators at Brussels had no consideration for the complications of joining in the climb at WOD with LL and KK departures to worry about. What you experienced was the operational controllers fitting you in as best they could, and the direct routings were offered to help you. You can always request to follow your flight planned route if that is easier, and they will leave you alone. The only potential fly in that particular ointment is that you may not be aware of the preferred routing from and ATC point of view and that is not always apparent at the flight planning stage.

The reference to FL90 you will find in the AIP (as it used to be called), where it states that the minimum OVERFLYING level of the London TMA is usually FL90. This is because, depending on the QNH, a lower level can get in the way of traffic climbing to an altitude when you are at a FL and also traffic holding at BNN/LAM/OCK/BIG for LL where FL80 or FL70 might be the minimum stack level and they don't want to have to leave the stack high because you are flying underneath them and then have extra height to lose downwind. In your case, however, when you are departing from under the TMA it seems that the reference to minimum overflying level was a little misplaced.

HD's reference to the transition altitude is important! Do not fly FLs below 6000 feet in the LTMA. You might well be busting CAS where the base is an altitude.

As an ex-TMA South Controller I would also agree that the best plan would be to get airborne, remain beneath CAS, call Farnborough and get them to obtain you an entry into CAS in the GWC area, as you are then clear of KK departures climbing towards MID.

I can't of course comment about what happened to you once you had crossed into French Airspace.. :rolleyes:

If you want to see for yourself what it's like, arrange a visit to LATCC.

------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[chiglet]

Various previous posts on similar topics have highlighted the "differences" between us and them.
To forestall any flak..
IF you file point to point in UK airspace, you [usually] get a reject. If you file the same in "Continental" airspace, it is [of course] acceptable
(BP started a good thread about this a couple of months ago)

[Lon More]

The route info in IFPS is, as I understand, the info given to Euro by the national administrations.
A considerable number of the re-routings made by them are illogical and as such are often ignored in practice. The best advice is to request your original routing when airborne; sommtimes you'll win, sometimes you won't.

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Lon More,just an ATCO

[IFollowRoads]

Thanks for the thoughts everybody. Yep - I'll take the Transition level on board - my mistake, but I've just had to refer to a visual chart to get the lateral limits. (maybe this and the lack of beldi/kovin is something to chase up with Aerad)

Point taken about this sort of traffic being a right PITA - I'm trying to make it easy for all of us, so finding out more of the way it works is the point of this thread - so YES PLEASE to the visit to LATCC (whats the best way of arranging this?), and on a similar vain, are the preferential routes the same as the 'UK Standard Routes' in the AIP.

If the plan and flight are never going to have much of a bearing on each other, should I just file 'DCT' for the route, and we'll fight/sort the whole lot out after getting airbourne ;)

Thanks all

[chiglet]

IFR
If you file "DCT" you will most likely fly from A to B via H,S and X.
Seriously, don't do it. File "requested" route, and hopefully IFPS will give a reasonable route, especially if you remark "IFPS reroute accepted", then as has been said RQS dct with sector