Why a Command Instrument Rating??

[AlternativeProcedure]

Can anyone please tell me why an australian IR is called a command IR? What is so command about it? I'm assuming that both first officers and captain get the same type of instrument rating, if there is a special type of IR that captains have, the this might more of an appropriate term. Just curious.

[captain marvellous]

I'm assuming that both first officers and captain get the same type of instrument rating...That assumption is not correct - at least not necessarily.

CAO 40.2.1.2 (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/400201.pdf) :2 INTERPRETATION

2.1 In this section :

command instrument rating means an instrument rating of one of the following grades :

(a) command (multi-engine aeroplane);

(b) command (single-engine aeroplane);

(c) command (multi-engine helicopter);

(d) command (single-engine helicopter).

co-pilot instrument rating means an instrument rating of one of hte following grades :

(a) co-pilot (aeroplane);

(b) co-pilot (helicopter).


CAO 40.2.1.6 (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/400201.pdf) :6 ENDORSEMENTS

6.2 If CASA issues, or renews, a particular grade of instrument rating by entering it in a person's personal log book, the form the entry must take is the letters 'IR' (the endorsement of the instrument rating) followed by whichever of the following is applicable to the grade of instrument rating :

(a) in the case of a command (multi-engine aeroplane) or a command (multi-engine helicopter) grade rating - the letters and symbol 'C-ME'; or

(b) in the case of a command (single-engine aeroplane) or a command (single-engine helicopter) grade rating - the letters and sumbol 'C-SE'; or

(c) in the case of a co-pilot (aeroplane) or a co-pilot (helicopter) grade rating - the letters 'CP'.


CAO 40.2.1.13 (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao40/400201.pdf) :13 PRIVILEGES AND LIMITATIONS

13.1 A command (multi-engine aeroplane) grade of instrument rating authorises the hold of the rating to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command, or co-pilot, while the aeroplane is flying under the I.F.R.

13.3 A co-pilot (aeroplane) grade of instrument rating authorises the holder of the rating to fly an aeroplane as co-pilot while the aeroplane is flying under the I.F.R.

[Tinstaafl]

Your confusion lies in your assumption. Both Capt & FO don't necessarily get the same IR, although they can (as long it's a Command IR). A co-pilot can have a 'Co-pilot IR' instead.


Currently, Oz has 3 levels of IR:

Command IR (CIR)
Co-pilot IR (CPIR
Private IR (PIR)

CIR:

Is called that because that's what's needed to be Pilot in Command of an aircraft engaged in IFR operations. Note that a pilot **must** be instrument rated to fly using Instrument Flight Rules.

CPIR:

Has reduced requirements compared to the CIR. ONLY qualifies the pilot to fly IFR *if* s/he is a member of a multi-crew type with the Capt holding a CIR. Was introduced for the airline's benefit ~17 years ago when the instrument rating system was rejigged. Since their FOs only ever fly in circumstances that involve a CIR captain they save a bit of money by not having to do the extra bits for the CPIR renewal.

PIR:

A form of modular IR, mostly only valid for private operations ie non-commercial. The CIR has been broken down into broad tasks & competancies eg cruise flight, NDB approach, VOR approach, ILS approach, instrument departures etc etc.

A PPL (or higher licence holder) can get a very limited form of IR that initially allows VFR take-off, IFR cruise, VFR landing**. Add on the NDB approach module & the pilot can now do a flight that involves NDB approaches. Add on, say, the instrument departures module & s/he could do a flight that requires a SID.

If all the modules are added then the pilot has achieved a CIR, albeit in a rather more drawn out fashion. Think of it as the instrument rating equivalent of integrated vs modular CPL training.


**there are restrictions on the minimum cloud base & visibility that must present for this ie cloud base above the LSALT/MSA for departure & arrival.

[AlternativeProcedure]

Interesting...

Currently, Oz has 3 levels of IR:

Command IR (CIR)
Co-pilot IR (CPIR
Private IR (PIR)


That was the answer to my question essentially, I didn't realise they had a co-pilots IR. Do most airlines out there accept the co-pilots licence at entry level?

[Meeb]

I did the ATPL air law paper down under a few years ago which included questions regarding Co-pilot endorsements and Co-pilot IR's, it would have been amusing had it not been confusing... :rolleyes:

I believe the Co-pilot IR is hardly used these days but the Co-pilot type endorsement is.

All about to change soon though as all the Regs are being updated, and so Australian aviation will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century... ;)

But when is the taxation system going to come out of the 1960's I wonder... :p

[Tinstaafl]

Not that I'm aware of, AP. They all want a CIR. A CPIR is easier so airlines want a demonstration of ability to get a CIR since they hire future captains.

[john_tullamarine]

The history dates back eons to first and second class ratings (cf command and copilot for heavies) which, I suspect, were introduced early during the two airline policy days to make it a tad more difficult for F/Os to do a bunk and head off overseas - as well as saving a few minutes and dollars on the re-rating work.

There was also a class one rating (cf command for lighties).

These then were subsumed into the command and copilot ratings.

The end result is all sorts of archaic ratings in our licences for not all that much benefit ?

[Tinstaafl]

The change happened in mid-1987. Before then there were:

First & second class IRs: Only available within the airlines. First useable for command or co-pilot duties, second only for co-pilot stuff.

Class 1: GA equivalent of First Class IR.

Class 3: A slightly easier IR with a few restrictions such as could only enter CTA for the minimum extent necessary for the flight (might have been 'capital city CTA'), circling minima only, could only file 'Limited IFR' (which was a subset of the 'full' IFR abilities'). Forgotten most of the details now. It was 17 years ago.

Class 4: What is now called a Night VFR rating.

Class 5: What is now called a Night Agricultural rating.

[Capt Claret]

And a CoPilot's Instrment Rating is about as useful as T!ts on a Bull or Rocking Horse Sh!T.

[AlternativeProcedure]

Cheers for the info guys

AP

[Old Smokey]

I think Capt Claret summed it up pretty well, at least for the Australian scenario.

My slightly cynical (but true) Post Script to CC's post is that the employers love it - It prevents holders of Co-Pilots Instrument Ratings being readily employable with other operators. In my (past) experience, the F/Os still receive the same standard of training and must meet the same standards on a Base Check as for the CIR.