Lost Comms Procedure ????

[Antman]

I have another question for you men behind the radar.If I'm cleared for a visual approach to a runway served by an published instrument approach. I have to go-around for what ever reason and on the go-around I have
comms failure (very unlikly I know). I dial up 7600 on the transponder.
What do I do?
1)Do I continue back into the visual circuit and reposition to land as the original clearance was for a visual. (this is what I believe is correct ????).
2)Do I comply with the missed approach procedure for the published letdown and continue with the lost comms procedure, bearing in mind that at no stage was I
cleared for the published App and the missed App procedure which is part of that App
I WAS NOT CLEARED FOR!!
Let's hear the opinions please, myself and a few of the local ATC's have had no joy
finding an explaination in the ICAO DOC's

[2 six 4]

Nope. If you are in the missed approach procedure you are back in the approach world. The missed approach should say straight ahead or whatever to xxx then back to yyy VOR. At that point I would expect you to go outbound for one of the standard approaches.

[Antman]

Yes but you have not been cleared to do that ,you have not been cleared for an approach procedure and therefor you are not cleared for the missed app procedure, you've only been cleared for a visual approach no procedure at all.

[2 six 4]

Err sorry chaps.

When you start a missed approach you enter the missed approach procedure no matter how you got there - radar vectored, SRA, PAR, ILS, NDB or any other combination of precision or non precision approach. They have finished and you have now landed or entered the missed approach procedure. The approach plates should detail what you do - don't make it up yourself on the basis of a discussion in the bar one night !!

[2 six 4]

I have just realised that maybe Ant thinks a Visual Approach is something unusual. It is an IFR approach with ATC providing the separation and the pilot positioning visually on the approach.
When that phase ends we all start again IFR and hopefully separated.

[Slasher]

Ive never REQUESTED for clearance to fly a missed approach I just go ahead and do it and tell the guy I am doing it when I can get a word in. I follow the plate and he ether says keep doing it or he spears me off onto some heading or NDB. I might be in 8/8th blue but Im an IFR catagory flight. If I lose coms (happened once) I follow the prescribed procedure in the Jep. Whats the fuss?

[Geordie]

[This message has been edited by Geordie (edited 07 March 1999).]

[Geordie]

Any pilot who considers that it may be OK to
execute a visual circuit in these circumstances just think :- at a busy airport the next inbound is likely to be just 3 nm behind followed by a stream similarly spaced feeding off several stacks. Unless you have a handling emergency you must follow the missed approach procedure. If you do have an emergency, squawk SOS and do whatever it takes, in these circumstances the radar controller will jump through hoops to break following traffic off.

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[This message has been edited by Geordie (edited 07 March 1999).]

[Antman]

2 six 4 a visual is nothing special but what if I'm cleared for it before I'm into any part of a letdown procedure. I understand where you are all coming from, but what happens if I'm on a STAR and at 25 DME get cleared for a visual to rwyXX and rwyXX is served by a ILS, NDB, VOR & VOR/DME approachs which have diffrent missed approach procedures. Which one do I follow?? Bearing in mind the STAR was canceled on receiving the the visual clearance.
One more possibility is that inside of 25 Dme on a STAR I'm cleared for a visual app to a RwyYY which is a cross rwy and has no published instrument approach procedure ??

I'm not trying to be difficult chaps & chappesses. I'm an ex-ATC who got asked this by a training capt and passed on the request to mates still practicing ATC's and we searched the ICAO Doc's for an answer and there is none to be found????, so there is no right or wrong just what is persived to be correct, I also thought that 7600 on the transponder was for comms failure, does this not indicate to the ATC that there's a problem watch closely.
Please check Twodogs & JMS's responce to this question at rumours & news in the "Asian ATC procedures" topic.
This can turn into an intersting discusion if nobody get personal (Know what I mean.)
Slasher have you never been given ATC instructions on declaring a missed approach that are diffrent from what been published.

[This message has been edited by Antman (edited 08 March 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Antman (edited 08 March 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Antman (edited 08 March 1999).]

[Geordie]

OK there may not be a definitive answer but let’s dissect the problem :-

1. Say you’re inbound to EGXX with runways 27/09 and 33/15, the main instrument
runway is 27/09.

2. You’ve picked up the ATIS which gives r/w 27 and tells you to expect ‘radar
vectors to the ILS r/w 27’, (where an ATIS is not available the approach controller
will have indicated the type of approach to expect ).

3. You have selected the appropriate plates for the r/w and landing aid which will
indicate the action to take in the event of a missed approach.

4. At some time you report that you have the airfield in sight and request a visual
approach to r/w 15 and are so cleared, however the scenario that you describe occurs
and you go around with radio failure. Surely common sense would dictate that unless
you have an emergency which requires you to land immediately, (in which case you
should be squawking SOS), you would turn right and away from other approaching
aircraft and, since we’ve already established that you have the missed approach
procedures to hand for the declared instrument r/w, you would/should follow those
instructions and then on to standard radio failure procedures as per the UK Air Pilot.

5. You might be considering some or all of the following :-

a. On being cleared for a visual approach you were told or assumed that you were no.
1 and that since you did not hear any other traffic being vectored consider that it’s OK
to position to land on 27, (after all, a curving approach and you’ll be on the ground in
no time). But the fact that you had the frequency to yourself doesn’t mean that the
no.2 director or the north/south director etc. isn’t lining up a queue behind you on a
different channel which means that you’re potentially turning towards and into conflict
with other possible inbounds.

b. If you squawk 7600 you’ll be carefully monitored and the appropriate action taken
by the controller but if you squawk 7700 then it indicates/dictates that you need to be
afforded total freedom to manoeuvre and require immediate assistance and all other
aircraft in the vicinity will likely be moved and possibly diverted until the situation is
resolved; many other things will be done that you’ll be unaware of as a flashing SOS
on the radar galvanises everyone into action. The difference being that 7600 has an
uncertainty about it, ‘watch this space’, but 7700 means ‘I’m in the s**t, get everyone
else out of the way’ and the controller says/thinks ‘the sky’s yours’.

6. Finally, in the event that a course of action is not prescribed then we all have to rely
on plain common sense and ‘aviation awareness’ or ‘airmanship’ if you prefer,
something which, I’m sad to say, isn’t available in large dollops - controller training is
somewhat lacking in this respect these days. I’ll no doubt be criticised for this heresy
but, since I’m within spitting distance of retirement, I feel able to be honest with a
certain equanimity.

Plenty of food for thought in this discussion.

[Geordie]

Well, that's killed the conversation !?

[Cardinal]

Consider this. What do the regs say regarding lost comms in the clouds? Follow your last clearance unless you find visual conditions. If you find VFR weather you're supposed to remain VFR and land. If your on the go and the radio keels over, why on earth would you fly a missed appr. procedure that could potentially put you in the clouds again? I'd squawk 7600 (or 7700 if you're feeling antsy), hope the controller makes a hole for me, and land. I have to wonder, what is it that you would do after you flew the missed approach? This is a peculiar question. Makes ya think.

[CrashDive]

Depending on my global location, I'd reach in to my flight bag, extract my mobile phone, and call the tower - Mock me yee not, this has been done ! http://pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/smile.gif

[135 9]

Asked all ATC colleagues, response has overwhelmingly been that they would expect the aircraft to join a visual circuit to the same runway, and ATC would break off any other aircraft on approach.

NB procedures in Oz say for acft on visual approach, climb straight ahead then proceed under next ATC clearance. Except SY where to join the missed approach procedure for the "Primary Instrument Approach" for the runway concerned (generally ILS).

[Slasher]

Antman yes. Especialy in a nonradar environment. I lost comms during a visual approach in 8/8 VFR and went around as I wasnt cleared to land. There was also an aircraft on line up. Followed the published MA procedure and came around for the NDBILS. Got the green. Later found Tower lost his electrics.
I lost comm on a GA at BKK (our radios blew a fuse) in IMC. Followed the IFR procedure. Returned over BKK VOR with our A7600 squawks etc. Landed. BKK said no prob. Had we had our comms maybe would have been vectored around the circuit instead of flying to the MAF.
Again I dont see what the fuss is about.