Flying in the Persian/Arabian Gulf

[airsnail]

Does anyone have any information on the various operators in the Gulf.
(Gulf Helicopters,Aerogulf,Abu Dhabi Helicopters etc)

I could only find a web site for Gulf Helicopters.
Any opinion on which would be the best to work for and the experience required, would be appreciated.

[Pac Rotors]

Rob Denehy at Aerogulf in Dubai would be a good contact. They have orders in for a number of 609 Tiltrotors. At the moment they are operating 212 / 206 and BO-105s. Or at least they were when I visited them. Seem like a great company, good equipment and run by expats.

Gulf Helicopters from what I hear are also a good company. Have a few friends that are flying up there and they speak very highly of them. If you need contact numbers for Aerogulf let me know.

Pac Rotors

[212man]

Don't have time right now, but I know for a fact that if you use a search engine and look for Aramco, Gulf Helicopters and Abu Dabhi (spelling?) aviation, you will get results.

[Out of Balance]

Abu Dhabi right now is about 45 degrees celsius, 85% humidity. You'll fly up to 8 hours per day in ***** vis, single pilot in a Bell 212 and come home to temporary (since 1975) accomodation where there are no women, but lots of very grateful Indian males and depressed US ex-Vietnam types. Oh, and no beer either. Enjoy!

[Pac Rotors]

Out of Balance

Whats your thoughts on Aerogulf in Dubai. I spent a lot of time in the UAE and found Dubai to be a great place, lot of women, beer at the nightclubs and bars as well as decent place to live.

[Rotorbike]

Sorry been to Blighty for a week.

Gulf Helicopters, Doha want about 2000 and previous Captain experience. Fleet is 412/212. Co-pilots with less but no Captain upgrades. Pay daily rates. 28/28,56/28 and 6/6.

Abu Dhabi Avaition want 2500, over 30 years old and a name that doesn't sound Jewish. Fleet is 412/212/206. They will train as Captain. 56/28 rotation. No co-pilots but have been considering it for the last 4 years.

Aerogulf are the smallest and have sold the 105's. Fleet is 212/206. Very low turnover there, only 18 pilots. 42 days off a year.

Out of Balance, don't know where your information is from but beer is plentiful in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar.

Weather today 42 on the ground, 36 at 1000'.

[airsnail]

Thanks for all the information

Rotorbike, do you know if you need the 212/412 rating before you apply. They are not that easy to get in the UK. (and very expensive)

[Pac Rotors]

Maybe you could get 212/412 rating in NZ or Australia. With the exchange rate the way it is it would be very very cheap and cost effective. Also there are a lot of kiwis and Aussies in the Middle East so obviously they recognise the licence and ratings.

If you need operator info that have the aircraft let me know and will see what I can gather.

[mrfish]

Sadly I understand you need 200hrs 212 time!(for Gulf Helos)

Damn shame that 2000 Huey and 1000 Sea King doesn't cut it! (13hrs 212 but!)

Anyone know different pse let me know.

[Magumba]

Pac Rotors and Mr Fish,
Abu Dhabi used to have it's pilots with out US license go to America and get one post haste as the US license is easier to keep current. I think they even paid part or all of the cost for the US license. I was there in the early 80's, I had to 212 time did my 212 conversion there.
It's a good company to work for as far as I know.

[Rotorbike]

With so many of the pilots now being civilian trained and already having put a minimum of US$50,000 on the line to start. More in the UK. I was just wondering where a journalist thinks people are going to find more for a 212/412 transition.

Even an ex-military pilot is going to have to pay about $10,000 to transition to a Commercial licence in the UK.

I could understand a contract requiring you to stay at a company for a year in exchange for a transition but to go get one with the possibility of a job ahead seems taking the job hunt to a whole new pay scale.

Just wondering where Pac Rotors believes the new pilots to the industry are going to find this kind of money in the future after spending a year sweeping the hangers, a year instructing on below $1000 a month, a summer in Alaska at $1500 a month etc....

By the way, Gulf Helicopter, Abu Dhabi Aviation and Aerogulf don't expect you to turn up with 212/412 on your licence. Instrument ATPL's are given a month temporary licence during which time you pass a checkride and air law written.

Gulf has taken on guys with less than 200 in type. I suppose it's a case of timing!!! And maybe a recommendation or two.

:D

[BigJim]

Hey everyone,

I am trying to get some contacts (email or Ph #& names) in the helo world in the above mentioned areas for contract pilot work.
Am having very little luck from this end, so am calling on everyone's wealth of knowledge to assist me.

Thanks - BigJim :rolleyes:

[Rotorbike]

www.gulfhelicopters.com (http://www.gulfhelicopters.com) based in Doha

e-mail [email protected] attention chief pilot or try [email protected]

Telephone ++(974) 4333808
Fax ++(974) 4411004

Other choice for contract work is Abu Dhabi Aviation......who have moved so I don't have their number anymore.

[BigJim]

Thanks for the contact, will give them a go.


BigJim :p :p

[Droopstop 21]

Just wondered (with all the goings on in the nearby region) if there is much of a 'drop out' rate amongst the chopper driver corps in the Emirates???


Fly Safe and Keep the Fan on Top!

[Helicopterman]

Hey there Droop stop..

Just wonering who you are flying for up there in sunny Cairns.??

:D

[Droopstop 21]

Just finished almost 10 years in PNG, taking a break at the moment. Things are really crazy up there in Pt. Moresby.

null :eek:

[GulfPLt]

Does anyone have any info on UAE jobs looking for pilots with a FAA ATP?

[Autorotate]

Not sure about UAE but Gulf Helicopters are always on the lookout. A friend of mine is flying there and says conditions are quite good.
www.gulfhelicopters.com (http://www.gulfhelicopters.com)

[GulfPLt]

Thanks for the info Autorotate. Rotorbike, Thanks very much. Tried to email you, but your email address didn't work.null (http://null)

[HelosRfun]

Aerogulf Services Co. (LLC) located in Dubai, UAE. + Does anyone have any contacts for other HELO operators in the UAE or Bahrain? (I already have Abu Dhabi Av., and Gulf Helicopters in Qatar, so don't need those at this time.) + What should one expect for entry level pay, benefits, bonuses, etc... Also, what is the current hiring situation in these 2 areas given the current "middle-east situation"? Hope to hear from some folks working there now. Thanks alot.

[Autorotate]

EGYPT

National Overseas Airline
Fax: +20 2 244 3120

Petroleum Air Services
Fax: +20 2 402 4449

ISRAEL
Chim Nir Aviation Services
Fax: +972 9 950 8708

Red Wing Ltd
Fax: +972 9 950 8704

SAUDI ARABIA
Arabian Helicopters
Fax: +966 3 857 1347

TUNISIA
Tunisavia
Fax: +216 1 718 100

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Abu Dhabi Aviation
Fax: +971 2 444 9081


Hope this helps.

Autorotate

[Rotorbike]

[email protected]

Fax +971 4 2823028

:D :D :D

Edited twice because it's too early!!!

[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: Rotorbike ]

[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: Rotorbike ]

[Autorotate]

Rotorbike

Is Rob Denehy still alive up there.

[Rotorbike]

Yes, Rob is still here, currently in the US on tilt rotor business and holiday.....

[HelosRfun]

ROTORBIK and AUTOROTATE: thanks for the info. Rotorbik, check your e-mail. I got your message, and replied with an e-mail to you. Looks like I was leaving out a "2" on the FAX number "2"82-3038!!!

[BigJim]

heard a rumour that Aero Gulf where hiring 60 new co's as part of their expansion to two pilot crews.....anyone have confirmation of this??

. .BigJim <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Hone22]

Well that depends............

I can confirm hearing a rumor a wee while ago that the eventual change to 2 pilot crews was in the wind, but the time frame ????????

Got a mate up there co-joe, I'll drop him a line and see if we can expand the rumor any further.

cheers & flysafe. .Hone

PS: Aaahhhhhh, so that's what the R stands for

[BigJim]

Hey Hone22,

heard you where doing some loading in Aussie for Tim...yes I am the greatest wheelbarrow!, how is he these days? hummmmmmm.

. .BigJim

[Big Beres]

Big Jim. .Where are all the high paying jobs?

[Hone22]

Hi all,


well it's that time again.

Having been renderd "Surplus to requirements":D It's time to search for that next paycheck.


Anyone out there have info on the co-pilot situation in Quatar??

How bout in Aus???

Would like to get onto multi's so realise co-joe's the only in, other than that, any info on pilot/instructor opening in Aus apprecitated.

1000hrs,Senior grade2, Irex,Turbine, Sling, Low, night and a lurrverly K1W1 accent to boot:)

[Ausrotor]

Try Helicopters Australia in Perth. They have the Esso co-pilot contract.

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi Hone,
It's spelt QATAR!! I spent 18 months living in Doha, the capaital, some years ago; it's bloody hot in summer but not too bad overall. Steve Kirkland is the Ops Manager, a top bloke, and he will help you if you are suitably qualified. They were looking for experienced pilots recently for jobs in various countries.
Good luck.

[Hone22]

Hi Nigel,

Juss doin the ol Khadafi, Quadafi, Gadafi confusious thing.:D

Many thanks

[Steve76]

Hone Mate!
Got your mailie and will reply soon.
I agree with Ausrotor. Haunt Helicopters Australia and get into ESSO. Best time of your life and plenty of flying.
:D

[Roundagain]

Anyone know if Gulf are hiring at present and a contact number?

Thanks

[Autorotate]

As of the 17th of June they were looking for Pilots and Switch Bitches.
I have a couple of friends flying for them and they say they are a pretty good outfit to work for.

[Mike Hunt]

I'm after some info on Gulf Helis in Dubai.
Are they any good or just another offshore operator.
Who is the Chief pilot & any contacts.

Appreciate it.

[Airtoday]

This would seem like a more appropriate question for Rotorheads but anyway..
There is no company called Gulf Helis in Dubai. Gulf Helicopters operate from Doha in Qatar.
Aerogulf Services are the operator in Dubai. (Dubai 823157).
Capt. Barry Whitemore is Chief Pilot.
Also the helicopter operator in Abu Dhabi is Abu Dhabi Aviation.

Hope that is useful.

[ExSimGuy]

FYI - (and as this is the Bashes" forum) Qatar is "quite dry" and it's 90 minutes for a rotorhead to get the Dubai, 20 mins to Bahrein, for a beer ;)

[SASless]

Anyone know of an operator flying offshore in the Persian Gulf....in the Kharg (Khark) Island area? We have seen a helicopter landing at an offshore platform adjacent to the Saudi Aramco Marjan field and are interested in making contact with them in order to coordinate traffic advisories.

I am aware of Gulf Helicopters operating out of Kish (Qeyes) Island in that a dear friend is flying on that operation.

[flygunz]

probably the CIA mate!!;)

[Rotorbike]

Heli Union are up that way somewhere..... AS365

It isn't CHC as their contract has finished.

Any ideas what aircraft??

[Oracle]

Hi Guys,

Yes - Gulf Helis (Doha) operates several aircraft (412's & a 212) on contract out of Kish Island working eastwards as far as the South Pars Field due north of Qatar. All traffic working in Iranian airspace is mandated to listen out on 121.5 when not in direct contact with ATC - (also used as a general chat frequency by many of the ex-mil Russian pilots ploughing through the area, - many seemingly at random!) - which is monitored by Iranian Radar units at Kish and at other Radar watch stations along the coast, who provide a very efficient service. HSO (Iranian Company) is still (just about - as the last single engine machines are being withdrawn soon) operating their own offshore support helis along the coastline from bases such as Lana Island and Sirri Island - west to Kharg Island - where they are joined by Heli Union's Dauphins. Shortly CHC are expected to commence operations westbound out of Kish to support the Agip (Italian) contract in the South Pars area (1 x S76 with 212 back-up). South Pars Field frequency is 128.55, Salman Field (South of Kish) which includes Sirr Island freq 129.00. Gulf Helis work the north dome (north of Qatar) on 129.2.
Our French cousins from Heli-Union no doubt use their own chat frequency off Kharg.
Try calling on 121.5 first, then switch to then one of the others above, depending on where you are. ( Be aware that many older HSO aircraft only have one VHF box, so are likely to not be listening on one or the other freq!)

Ofshore - you are always better off on 121.5 to ensure that neither the USN or Iranian Military use you as a splash target!

Hope this helps!

Oracle

correction to my last

- it should have read 'Lavan Island' - dexlyxic fingers!

[Oracle]

:D
Greetings from sunny Doha-by-the-Sea!

This is the home of Gulf Helicopters (once an offshoot of Gulf Air, but now wholly-owned by Qatar Petroleum - the national oil Company of Qatar). We operate 412's (and a couple of 212's) in Offshore Oil'Gas Field Support Ops (and overseas contracts).

We receive ****loads of c.v's from all and sundry - so why not swell the in-tray even more? Basic rates of pay are poor by local standards: IR Captain daily rate at US$262, usually working 8/4 or 6/6 contracts. Negligible chance of permanent 6/1 contracts right now, and most permanent and temporary slots fill quickly for 8/4 & 6/6. Nice bunch of guys - gentle ops except in the summer months which are a bitch! Doha is the 'Sleepy Hollow' of the Gulf - but ideal for those who live in foreign parts (some of us just dream about those!) and want to bring home regular US$ inputs that the tax man need not know about! No income tax in Qatar. A pleasant but quiet environment. Booze available to permanent residents. The country is opening up at a measured pace - but will never be wild like Dubai! Abu Dhabi Aviation down the road pays slightly more - but offers less job-security!

Address:

Gulf Helicopters
P.O. Box 811
DOHA
QATAR,
Arabian Gulf.

Coy Tel (974) 4333888 (Ch. Plt. Fax: 4359738)

Chief Pilot: Steve Kirkland



website: www.gulfhelicopters.com

Hope this helps!

Oracle

[gulliBell]

To our Aramcon friends, is Denny hiring at the moment? what happened to the co-pilot contractors, is it only aramcon now?

[TomBola]

I've just been offered a job as a helicopter pilot in UAE. It's on a rotation, but the pay seems quite low compared to other overseas jobs I've heard about and the 8:4 schedule isn't very attractive. I've also heard quite a lot of rumours that there is a very high turnover of pilots out there. Is there anybody out there with recent experience of the place who can tell me if the rumours of pilot turnover are really true, and if so, what's the reason? I'd quite like to go, but I don't want to find myself out of work again in a few months.

[Yarba]

Tom,
If you want stability steer well clear mate. Last year ADA lost 25 pilots through either resignation or termination (often on some pretty flimsy excuses). Not sure what it is this year but must be pretty much the same as last. Most guys leave because of the money or the fact that they're treated like bottom-dwelling lowlifes.
There have been several instances of guys arriving, taking one look at the accommodation and leaving on the next flight! This is not surprising. They'll tell you the accommodation is not too good and they're shortly moving, but this is the same tired story they've been pushing out for years. The truth is that you'll live in a filthy, mould covered plywood shack that's about 25 years old. These so-called 'vans' have dirty, curling carpets on the floor, laden with dust mites, dirty furiture and mostly shared bathrooms. The airconditioners are meant for the desert (because they're cheaper than real air conditioners) and only cool the air, so the humidity means that the walls of the rooms are covered in horrible black mould. You have to do your own shopping for food, but the buses do not really run at a convenient time for most pilots.
For your first tour you'll probably be told that you may have to work a couple of weeks extra 'to fit into the roster', but this can easily run to an extra 4, 5 or even 6 weeks extra.
If you opt for a 6/6 roster the pay is really lousy and isn't the same every month. This means you'll join the long queue of other pilots going along for the monthly shouting match with the accounts department. This will get you absolutely nowhere as they are all graduates of the Mumbai school of polite obstruction and bureaucracy and all you will leave with is a red face brought on by your high blood pressure. It will not improve no matter how many times you visit them. The same will often be true of your ticket for your flight out on leave and even if you book it yourself (recommended if you want to get out), almost every leave you will have a battle with the bureaucrats.
Training - there isn't any! Safety is a joke and if you're unwise enough to put in a hazard report, your words will be twisted and you'll be laying yourself open to 'being allowed to go' when it has quietened down.
Hope you're good at basic flying because on your occasional flights in a Bell 212 there's no autopilot and it's all single pilot.
The upside is that it is nearly all single pilot, the sun always shines and Abu Dhabi is a modern, safe city with all amenities. There used to be a very good bunch of guys out there from many different different countries, but they really are not well treated, so think long and hard before deciding what to do. Maybe you'll get some replies from guys who have a different view than I do - let's see.
:rolleyes:

[papaindia55 flaps]

Tombola, if you are who I think you are, then don't be too hasty to leave the North Sea. It ain't that bad, trust me. On the other hand, if you really have had enough then go for it, nothing ventured, nothing gained. A change of scenery and doing something different, no matter how bad it may sound is probably good experience in the long run. Give us a bell if you've still got my number. Ciao!!

Oh, andif it isn't who I think it is, then I'll go and get another beer and shut up.................................................

[TomBola]

Yarba,
Certainly sounds as if you don't like the place! Are you still there? I'd really like to hear from anyone who's in any of the companies out there now, before I take the big step into the unknown.

PI55F
Sorry, haven't worn a rubber bag to work for many a long year! Guess you'll have to have that beer! I need a nice cold one myself as it's very hot here - cheers!

Tom

[Rotorbike]

Assuming you are talking ADA then Yarba has painted a picture which is about how the rumours sit.

Equally there are many guys who have been there for many years and enjoying there time there.

Also, there are guys who have barely completed their first tour before a local co-pilot has demanded (and got) them dismissed.

Must add, rumour is engineering is top notch and rumour has it that they will have to comply to the new UAE regulations in Jan 2003 which should mean less duty and flight limits.

You state that for rotation work you find the money low....... for the Middle East ADA are the best paid. May I ask compared to whom??

[Yarba]

Actually, ADA have only one local copilot and his arrival was not the cause of any jobs being lost. Many pilots have failed to make it to the end of their first tour because they were supposedly not up to the required standard - what a joke. You only have to look at the numbers who have left/been fired during the last 2 years to realize that job security must be amongst the lowest in the industry.

The pay is exactly the same as at Gulf Helis (it's just that they pay a daily rate for time on site, which works out as the same as the monthly rate paid by ADA). Saudi Aramco pay slightly more because they provide free food whilst with ADA and Gulf you have to pay for your own from the salary (though one of the elements of the ADA salary is a monthly food allowance - that however is included in the overall monthly rate they quote to most people they offer to hire). The accommodation with Gulf is very good, but the working conditions for engineers are not quite so good as the hangar is not air conditioned. The good thing about Gulf is that with a daily rate, if you're asked to workover, you know what you'll end up getting - with ADA it's just the excuse for another shouting match! Aerogulf pays less, but at least is in Dubai and has good housing. However, of the international operators both CHC and OLOG/Bristow pay considerably more for touring pilots. CHC is around 20% more for 6/6 or 5/5 (depending in which country you get offered a job) and Bristow is higher again (though you probably have to go to Nigeria for that).

The new regulations came into force in July of this year, but ADA has an exemption from them and rumor is that when they fail to come up with enough pilots by January the exemption will be extended - pretty easy when you're the only operator.

Engineering is pretty good. Well funded and with an impressive stores inventory. They are supposed to be highly thought of by Bell Helicopter and I believe have some kind of award from them. There have been quite a few governor failures over the past couple of years, but that is just a PW problem. Engineering needs to be good though as the aircraft spend numerous nights offshore and because of the performance figures used (HOGE for offshore work), the high number of landings and the number of sling load jobs, all at max gross, those aircraft are very hard worked. Gulf and Aramco, mostly just fly to offshore and back. From what SASless has posted here in the past, he wasn't too impressed with Bristow engineering, but I think that may have been in Nigeria.

Actually, I forgot to mention another good point if you're looking at ADA - there are opportunities for long line (Yemen) and firefighting work (Spain) if you're qualified. These are paid more but you need to think about the number of Al Quieda rumored to be in Yemen if you're offered work there. Rumour has it that quite a few helicopters have been shot at and some of the people there have been held hostage and shot at too!

By all means go and give it a try as the Emirates itself is a nice place to be based, but go with your eyes open to the downside too. There are rumors of a big pay hike to attract more pilots so they may be starting to realize thay can't just keep firing guys like they do, but I wouldn't count on it. Doesn't look as if anyone there is willing to come up and tell you how he finds it now, but if you decide to go, good luck and post your view of the place after you arrive.



Yarba:eek:

[Joker's Wild]

Had a buddy take a slot there about one year ago, knew the CP from way back, blah, blah, blah.

Now my buddy has pretty thick skin for all kinds, but he took one look at the crew quarters and promptly told his buddy the CP to take a hike.

Nuff said.

[Mikila1A]

Is Cal F. still the CP for ADA?

[Rotorbike]

Yup

[Mikila1A]

This is a suprising thread, have always heard nothing but the highest praises of ADA. Quess one never knows all the stories.

Does or can anyone disclose a dollar figure for a 6 on 6 off?

[Yarba]

Bit difficult to give a dollar figure as the way they work out the salary for 6 on 6 off must have been done on the back of a child's exercise book by a blind bureaucrat with an IQ in single figures! It's not the same every month, but overall, the annual figure is around US$49,000. Out of this you have to buy food, but it's pretty cheap in the Emirates and you get to spend quite a few nights every month offshore, so naturally you get (really good) free food for those nights.
But hey, there's a really big pay rise on the way ehhh....!

[Mikila1A]

Hey Yarba,

Please do not take this in the wrong context, as I certainly do not wish to offend you or anyone else but.....

have you worked for them before, wondering if this is first hand knowledge. The reason I ask is that I know of at least a half dozen guys that have given up pretty well paying and comfortable jobs to take some of these positions. I have not talked to them personally but have heard nothing negative through the "grapevine".

Also wondering, (or thought) that Cal was the one that you negotiated your contract with and was told that he was a pretty stand up guy.......write or wrong??

Also curious what type a role the locals play in the whole business, :ie co-pilots. and how are the customers to work for.

I know the grass always looks greener but I would hate to walk on the lawn full of dogsh*t.........

Thanks.........

[Yarba]

Mikila1A
I think the figures speak for themselves. 25 pilots left or were fired in 2001. The figure for this year is getting close to that. Even in a big helicopter company that's a lot of pilots from one base! This is how they work - they rule through fear. The fear that if you speak up, say anything, file an incident report, you'll eventually lose your job. I expect that there are guys there now reading this and frightened to say anything, even in favor of the company, in case it's discovered that they said something in public.
Most of the guys they have fired have ended up almost immediately getting jobs with other companies - quite a few of them that I know of, at much higher salaries.
Cal is a decent stand-up guy, but his power is strictly limited. There's no negotiation of contracts. Everyone is on the same contract (non-nationals that is) and the Chief Pilot is just the one who offers you the job. A lot of the guys who've been fired over the last few years don't even know the real reason why they were fired or who was really responsible for firing them.
There are only a few local pilots and they are on a different contract than the expat pilots. They're nice friendly guys.
As a line pilot you have no direct contact with ADMA, the company that operates most of the offshore areas. The day-to-day contact is through a lot of co-ordinators both onshore and offshore, so they take the hassle from the client. Other than that it's done by management and they nearly always do what the client wants. The way the performance figures are worked out offshore means that power margins are almost nil, the wellhead decks have numerous obstructions, but nobody wants to report this as being unsafe in case they lose their jobs.
There are a lot of Canadians, Australians and New Zealand pilots there and for them it's probably not a bad deal as the money is better than they'd get back home, though even some of the Canadians are now starting to leave. The work is not too hard and there is a lot of free time as a result of the night standby duties and 'rest days'. Don't expect to be able to see anything of the country though as a 'rest day' is just a 24 hour break between duties. There's talk of complying with the legislation which has now been in force for 4 months, but if they continue firing pilots and having them leave at the rate they have been for the last few years there's no way they'll get the number they need, except by actually starting to offer conversions to pilots not type-rated, or getting in people who do not have the necessary qualifications and training them - difficult given the low number of training captains they have for a company of that size. If you're looking at going there from Europe or the USA, the money is lousy, the accommodation is dirty, unhealthy and a terrible fire hazard (the 'van' which burned down some years ago was destroyed very fast) and the obstructions on and condition of the wellhead decks offshore would never be acceptable to any North American or European regulatory authority or pass an audit by a major western oil company.

:eek:

[soggyboxers]

Tom,
The only way you'll know if it suits you is to go there. You obviously know what the money is like already if you've had an offer. Unless you're giving up a good secure job, what have you got to lose (after all if your present job is that good I guess you wouldn't be looking elsewhere). Just make sure you don't burn any bridges when you leave your present job and then if the new one doesn't work out, you may be able to return. My own experience has been that although the grass always looks greener, it rarely is - it's just the same patch of grass with a different fence around it.:(
It seems as if Yarba is either there at the moment or has been recently and it doesn't sound as if it matches up to his European? standards. You seem to be working in Africa so maybe the conditions there won't seem so different.
Sorry, haven't been there (only to a different piece of the Gulf many, many years ago) so this probably doesn't help

[Thomas coupling]

An accident waiting to happen, if ever I heard of one. And to think the victims could be reading this thread right now and do NOTHING ABOUT IT.

What a sad state of affairs.......

[Mikila1A]

Well gents,

this has all become just a little disheartening, myself and a few mates had a serious interest in persuing a few tours to the region and thought that ADA would have been the place of joice.

We / I certainly thank you all for the imput and now have to step back and reevulate the whole situtation...........

does not seem to be as rosy as the other boards have portrait it, although the Canadian's for some reason seem to love it there, maybe it is the ex-chnage rate for them,

Although Canadians are the " Bikers of the Helicopter World"

:D :eek:

[cwbypilot]

If you watch the news, you'll see ADA just had a helicopter shot on one of their contracts, two injured.

[gulliBell]

I agree with Yarba's comments, 99% (I thought the training section was at least quite satisfactory). They asked me to extend my first tour the day I arrived but I didn't even last there for one tour. The accommodation is *****, no question about it. The a/c in my room had 2 positions, hot and hotter, or rather noise and noisier. But the shower had only one position, just off. And as for those little black ants that swarm through your room, they are immune to every nerve agent known to man!! The admini-gestapo-guru's are mostly curry munchers hell bent on giving you a hard time, or trying to fine you, or blaming you for one of their cock-ups. Regarding the pay, I've heard that a co-pilot at Aramco in Saudi probably earns twice as much as an ADA Captain, but having said that, lifestyle must be factored into the equation (at least you can have a drink after work in the UAE). The maintenance facilities are first class, no question about that. If you decide to go and you don't like it, join the club. If you do like it, then make the most of it and enjoy your time there!!

[Helo]

Some of you may remember a couple of months ago that I asked this question about Rio de Janeiro when I thought I was getting posted there. That didn't happen, and now I'm destined for a 6 month placement in the Gulf instead!

I'm a mere JAR PPL(H) rated on the Hughes 300 and R44 and was wondering if anyone knows if I can self fly hire (most likely with a safety pilot) a helicopter in or around Oman or Dubai? Indeed, does the concept of General Aviation even exist over there?? Oh yeah, what's the language of ATC as well?

Any information and advice greatly received. Feel free to lob in the usual jokes about the impending war. ;)

Thanks

Helo

[md 600 driver]

the ruler of dubia has a 44 but the chances of using it are nil

i tried last year without any sucess if you get any info please contact me

steve

[ab139heli]

OMAN HAS NO PRIVATE OPERATORS OR FLYING SCHOOLS AND NOTHING I HEARD OF IN DUBAI

[Sandy Toad]

MD 600 Driver
Sorry The Ruler of Dubai does NOT have a 44. The Dubai Air Wing has operated many types of fixed wing and helicopters over the years, but they have never had a piston engined helicopter.
No wonder you couldn't use it!:confused:

[Helo]

As usual, PPRuNe proves to be a great resource .... even if the answers aren't quite what you want to hear!

Cheers

Helo

[Mikila1A]

Hey ll,

got a call this morning from Gulf offering a job in Qatar.

what are they all about?

how is the pay?

how is the maintence?

how is the management?

and if anyone should know a bud of mine use to work the as a engineer...is DG still there?

best regards,

Mikila1A

[misterbonkers]

If you decline from the job, can I have their details? cheers!!!!

[overpitched]

An associate of mine went to work for this company or the other one in the area which is Aerogulf. One of the two anyway. I'm pretty sure it was Gulf Helicopters. The pay was about $145 u.s a day tax free. I think that accom was also supplied as part of the package. He started there about 2 years ago but has since gone to the other operator in the area. Good luck

[MBJ]

Mostly 212's, mostly offshore, if I remember correctly.

[Twisted Rigging]

mikila1a

I believe DG back at Rotorwreck

[SASless]

$4,000 per month while working.....no pay while on leave??? Such a deal then! Those pay numbers must be wrong....they do pay better than that but not enough to be worth of serious consideration in light of payscales around the world. Perhaps that is why AbuDhabi has such a high turnover rate and Aramco is now targetting Peruvians with FAA licenses for recruitment! The Big Three Gulf operators all claim to have competitive wage rates....(they do...with each other!) but alas....not with the rest of the world it seems. With the gathering storm in the northern end of the Gulf and the reaction of those events by the residents south of there....one should be very careful about going to the Gulf Region now.....especially for the wages offered.

One man's opinion!

[rotorheadcase]

I'm currently working for Gulf Helicopters and we have the option of working 6 and 6 or 8 and 4.

Basic rate in Doha is US$262 per day so depending on what rotation you work depends on your income. we're flying 412's and the work is steady 50 to 70 hours per month but tends to become very routine very quickly.

As with ADA and Aerogulf we're all hoping that a significant pay rise is around the corner but no sign of it at this stage. We're all aware that pay scalesaround the world are increasing to the point that we'll get left behind not too far down the track. Having said that, we have a good bunch of guys here and the lifestyle is pretty relaxed. Doha is a very safe place to work and contrary to popular opinion is not dry.....just a little on the expensive side!

We live on a compound and usually share a villa between three pilots. We have a clubhouse a pool, sauna and gym and share the compound with the Emiri flight cabin crew.:D We work to JAROPS and I've had to work harder for less money elsewhere.

Maintenance is good although we've had a run on some of our experienced LAME's leaving to go to ADA. Training is reasonable and we all get six mointhly VBC/IBC checks and night deck currency.

All in all not a bad job, not the best pay in the world but not the worst. a nice relaxed lifestyle and a good bunch of guys.

[SASless]

4891 USD per month at Gulf Helicopters....you guys still not paid for your days off I recall. Also, you have no medical insurance or long term or short term disability insurance either as I recall. If you opt for the 6/6 rotation you take a cut in pay as well too if I remember correctly.

Aramco is paying 5500 USD per month....for all months on or off on an 8/4 roster with 2000 USD towards your ticket home. No medical insurance, no disability insurance, and possibly no on job insurance beyond what is in their aircraft coverage. Food is paid for and nice accomodation.

AbuDhabi pays about 5250 USD per month for all months worked including leave months.....and also offers a reduced pay rate for a 6/6 roster as I recall. Also really crappy accomodation to live in as well and buy your own food if you can find transport to the market.

All three operators are behind the times regarding pay....they each claim to be competitive with each other....which they are...but the rest of the world is leaving them behind in pay and benefits.

I left Aramco after being offered a job in the USA....gave them a chance to improve their situation but they would not.....matched the pay, picked up medical insurance, short and long term disability insurance, company funded pension, self funded pension, college tuition reimbursement, work related training reimbursement, paid sick leave, paid holidays, paid vacation, and pay raises yearly. I went from an 8/4 roster to a 2 on/5 off roster . I pay Federal and State income taxes now...but the benefits value alone exceed the tax costs I incurred by the change. The company pension contribution is 3.5 percent of gross wages and the company matches up to 6 percent of my self funded pension contribution....those two things alone make up one third of the tax bill. Add in the medical, dental, and prescription insurance and I break even.

Except for the Income tax benefits.....working overseas isn't always what it is knocked up to be. I did the overseas thing for many years with several different operators.....had a good time in some places....endured others.....and saved a lot of money....but of late.....it just doesn't seem to be worth it. The absolute lack of medical benefits alone is enough to prevent me from working overseas again. One major illness or serious injury can cause you serious financial problems....the absolute lack of concern by management to that one issue was enough to convince me to seek greener pastures. When you compute the numbers for these jobs....you must factor in all the costs and benefits to be able to make an effective business decision regarding where to work. Sometimes staying at home and paying the tax works when fringe benefits are considered.

The only way we can force the wages up as pilots is to withhold our labor from the outfits that fail to pay reasonable wages and provide the fringe benefits modern society dictates as being proper and normal.

One man's opinion.

[ironbutt57]

To be blunt...it's right down the same crapper as the fixed wing market?!!!:confused: :confused: :confused: :( :( :mad: :eek:

[Aesir]

Does anyone have any info on the B-230 operation that Gulf helicopters is starting?

Where will the base be, Is it single pilot, what´s the pay etc....???

[Oracle]

Gulf helis has been seeking experienced offshore 230 IR Captains to be based on an offshore Island Base (Halul) on a 6/6 basis (weeks that is!). Pay would be about $285 per day right now, but is expected to rise at the end of January. This is a one aircraft contract detachment servicing rigs in a nearby field (10 miles away) - 2 pilot ops. No booze on the island, but good sat TV, single accomm and free food. 6/6 terms give you a return air fare every leave. No annual gratuity/bonus guaranteed, but if you like desolation/living on nothing, then it's for you, bud!
Contract expected to fire up with a 412 early Jan until 230 arrives and gets up to speed in Feb/March.

Hope this helps!

[Jonasraf]

Aesir,
This sounds just like greenland, only warmer and no booze!!!

:D :D :D

Hafa gaman af þessu

[Aesir]

Thanks for the info "Oracle"

[pitchlink]

$300 per day seems rather low considering working coditions, and the fact that they do not pay days off on the 6/6 rotation. When will Mr ME realise what other operators have found recently:- Pay peanuts, get inexperienced crews!!

[All Blacks]

Could someone explain to me why they are using Bell 230s for offshore work when the company already has 412s. Also if it is only a ten mile trip why didnt they consider using 407s etc or something in the single engine market. Just curious.

AB

[Aesir]

In response to "All Blacks" question!

"Could someone explain to me why they are using Bell 230s for offshore work when the company already has 412s. Also if it is only a ten mile trip why didnt they consider using 407s etc or something in the single engine market. Just curious."


The DOC cost of running a B-230 is only 50-60% of what the B-412 costs and if the job only requires B-222/230 size helicopter then they are just fine for the job. Although a B-222 is much more in its element on longer routes (more than 10 miles!) because of its speed.

If Gulf helicopters is operating in accordance with JAR requirements (which they do acoording to my info!) then a twin engine helicopter is required for operations to elevated landing pads such as offshore platforms. It may also be a requirement from the customer as well as the two pilot operation.

[Yarba]

It's actually pretty much the same for all the companies out here. There are just minor differences as to whether you have to pay for your food (Gulf, ADA) or whether it's provided (Aramco).
In most of the countries booze is available if you want it and the cities and shopping facilities are good/excellent.
Housing standards vary tremendously. Gulf has very good accommodation but you'll need to buy a car as they don't provide transport to work for long. ADA has accommodation that's a health hazard, but at least there's a free bus service to work.
The flying is mostly standard boring offshore stuff, with Gulf mostly doing straight out and back crew changes and ADA doing a mixture of crew changes, wellhead hopping and slinging between wellheads.
Maintenance in all is pretty good and ADA does a lot of third party work, including overhauls for Gulf and Aramco as their engineering facility is excellent.
Managament in all is poor to lousy and as for the pay - the whole of the Middle East on the helicopter front is full of promises of the huge (up to 35%) rises that are impending as a ploy to keep us here, but so far none of the operators has been the first to break the lousy pay mold. It depends a bit on where you live, as most of the currencies are linked to the $US, so how that currency is likely to vary compared with your own is also a factor. In ADA, for instance, they may quote a rate in $US, but you'll actually have to open a local bank account and what you then do with the money is your responsibility.
Quite a few of us would like to be able to do the same as SASless, but it's not very many who can find good jobs in their own countries if they have spent many years overseas. The other problem out here is that there seem to be quite a lot of pilots who need to 'get a life'. The companies are actually short of crews, but there are always guys who have nothing better to do than volunteer for continual 'workovers' and as long as that happens there's no incentive for the companies to pay extra to recruit new crews.
However, if you're happy with the salary, Gulf is not a bad place to spend a few years in the sunshine.

[Woss goin on..?]

Will be visiting the UAE soon and would like to do some flying whilst out there....does anyone have any companies/numbers/emails etc that I might try?

Thanks chaps.

[spinningwings]

You could give Chris Brown or Barry Whitmore a call at Aerogulf Services Co....they're in the Dubai phone book (+9712 220157) ?? Pls check the number I'm not sure if I've remembered correctly.

:confused:

[Mikila1A]

Could anyone please confirm hearing any rumors that they are now hiring pilots for the Gulf?

The rumor is rampant here with nothing or no one to confirm it.:cool:

[Yarba]

Are you joking! They're always recruiting :D
As long as you have Bell 212/412 on your licence you'll find something will come up in a few months. It also helps if you know somebody here to put in a word on your behalf.

[Mikila1A]

alrighty then, who has a number for Cal, nothing on the web site only a company e-mail address, and we all know were they end up.

someone got a number or e-mail for Cal himself?

[soggyboxers]

M1A
Check your PMB.
soggy

[AuntyDolly]

Cal Fryer 971 2 5757 988. I hear its not the best outfit to work for however

[B Sousa]

Based on the Rumor Mill, its better if your passport is Canadian.......
Anyone confirm??

[AuntyDolly]

To Flungdung. Yeah you are 100% right there, on ADA's staff they do have a top class bunch of pilots. Its too bad that the company doesnt treat them as such. ie the accomodation is shocking and the pay is among the lower end of the world wide scale now. Added to the fact that a large amount of Indians run the administration, which Ive heard described as being from " the mumbai school of polite obstruction" I know a few of their more experienced drivers are now just holding in by the skin of their teeth, awaiting a long overdue payrise. Im not sure if it will be forthcoming soon, however, as was passed to me by a number of people who work for them. This aside, the line pilots I know there are both skilled operators, and decent guys. But is that enough to join a company that doesnt pay well or look after its people in a professional fashion?

[SLBAGAGE]

So do we have a definative answere yet? Are they recruiting and is it because they are going to a two pilot opertaion.
I've emailed ADAviation a few times know and not one reply!!:confused:

[Rotorbike]

Twin pilots is just a 5 year rumour......

[Yabu]

Yes, ADA is always recruiting, but not due to going 2 pilot, that is on the never never. They are going to JAR OPS and need extra staff for that coupled with a high pilot turnover. 32 odd left in last 2 years. Normally they ask for 212 or 412 time. And a lot of recruits are from canada, with other nationalities included. ie you dont have to have a canadian passport to have increased opportuniy. I would like to be able to refute the downside comments on the company, but they are all true.

[Airtoday]

Rumoured that Abu Dhabi have to go to two pilot operation and will be looking for 24 of you guys to get out there under the flack and work for peanuts (or coconuts) to build your hours to join us guys who work for cashews

[Slotty]

Will there be any minimum requirements? When do you expect this to take place, good news for new CPL's though on top of the Bond openings.

[rotorboy]

Any of you ADA guys give substance to this rumor....

Any Idea what they pay is going to be (peanuts=?)

Tours?

Could sure deal with some sun these days,...

RB

[SLBAGAGE]

From what I understand they are not looking for any co-pilot type people. They are after captains for both positions. So you will need a 212/412 captaincy and an unrestricted ATPL(H). A co-pilot Inst rating would not go astray either..
The hours are not known.
This is what I undertsand from my discussions!
Can anyone enlighted me about the bond openings please!
:D

[arviator]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "restricted ATPL(H)"? My UK ATPL has never been restricted so is this an aussie thing or FAA or what? Also can you explain what a co-pilot IR is. I thought an IR was an IR, and was not command (or co-pilot)specific.
One final thing, does anyone really know what the deal is in ADA? Are they recruiting? if so who (ie 212 rated or is any multi-turbine type eg S76 OK), and what is the money on offer??
Good luck to anyone jobhunting at the moment.

[Yarba]

Nothing changed really. Cr*p accommodation, cr*p pay. Choice of 6/6 or 8/4 roster. Pay equates to about US$4100 per month for 6/6 or US$5300 per month for 8/4 (becos the UAE Dirham is fixed to the US$). You have to pay for your food out of that and if you have a day off you have to pay for taxis to go any where or buy a car. The usual rumors about better pay and accommodation which may come true if we need more bums on seats here.
Still, could be worse and we all hope it happens. As for low hours guys - sadly I think you may still have a problem. But keep trying.

[GLSNightPilot]

In the US, you can get an ATP(H) limited to VFR only. I don't think it's very common, but it is possible.

[Yabu]

A number of us have pushed for more money at ADA, but as yet to no avail. As far as I can make out ADA still only takes on those with 212/412 command time, and you will need a lot of it. The training department is experienced and thorough, you will need to perform to pass their criteria, both in handling skill and IFR and slinging. I know of a handful of decent pilot prospects which have been overlooked due to lack of Bell command. As for the line work itself, for the first tour the average pilot will find it demanding, due to work load brought about by high density traffic, paperwork, heavy slingwork in high temps and humidity, and also to find your way around, ie in Zakum field in particular. Add to that a 7 flight hour day is not uncommon. Add that to up -to 80 (!) takeoffs and landings during that day. As for 2 pilot, we hear its on the horizon, but nothing solid yet. The recruitment of 20 or so pilots is to fill a roster change brought about by the change in adopting JAR OPS. The conditions and how well you are treated by ADA - well thats another story. Some can handle it , others not. It pays not to think with a logical western mind here. Yarba, we probably have morning coffee together - what a mystery!

[Skaz]

guys, ADA , do they have a website?

ADA stands for what? Abu Dhabi Aviation?

Any idea of requirements?

thanks a lot:}

[Red Wine]

Each Sate [country] of ICAO has the capacity to vary the ICAO Standards providing the State notifys ICAO of the variance.

In Australia, CASA can issue a "Restricted" ATPL, that is valid within Australian airspace only.

These "Restricted" ATPL's normally relate to a lower medical standard...such as colour blindness, or a hearing deficiency of some minor level.

I suspect in the case of the Gulf, the employer requires full / normal ATPL.

As far as the co-pilot Instrument Rating [as apart from the normal Command IR] and the 2nd Class Type Endorsement [as apart from the Command Type Endorsement] is concerned........both of these are taught and examined to a lesser standard than the normal Command Standard.

Both have been issued and used in Australia for many years........and its a great way for folk with limited experience to enter the multi engine/ multi crew world.

[Skaz]

Yarba had a look at your post, I dont know why you say so, but I think tha pay you mentioned is pretty damn F#$^&ng good, mate.

In fact, its 4 to 5 times what I get now:*

[SASless]

$4100 per month....no medical..no retirement....crappy housing...no loss of license....gone from home half the time....NOT BAD!

I think I will stay home and pay taxes.....and get the insurance and retirement, etc.......

[the coyote]

Might have to move to the UAE and was wondering what people who have lived/worked there think of the place. Any info at all would be appreciated.

[gulliBell]

You'll probably arrive in the middle of the night and be taken to stalag ADA. You'll have a private room (much like an ATCO transportable), and probably share a bathroom with one other pilot/engineer. You might have hot and cold running water, or you might not. But in summer you'll ONLY have hot water! You might have an airconditioner that works, or you might not. But if it is working chances are you'll need to wear ear plugs to keep out the noise so you can get to sleep at night. You'll probably have a squadron of little black ants marching through the room, especially if you keep any food in there (remember, you have to buy/cook your own food). You'll definitely have heat and dust in summer, but at least you can get a cold drink in the camp and run a bar chit. You'll need to rely on company buses for transport, except in the early days when you'll be assigned a driver to take you where you have to go to get through the induction admin. Be prepared to hurry up and wait, and unless you've worked in the Middle East before there're some cultural aspects you'll need to come to terms with. It's certainly not Club Med, but it's only for 6 weeks and then you get to go home (unless of course they "ask" you to extend). So if you enjoy it, great - if you don't, just put it down to experience.

[the coyote]

It wont be with ADA or in Abu Dhabi. Work aside, more interested in what its like generally as a place to live. What the people are like, security, services etc.

[jellycopter]

Coyote. It very much depends upon which Emirate you are intending to live in. My experience is of Dubai, which is generally regarded as 'the place to be', with Abu Dhabi coming a close second. Sharjah, RAK, UAQ and Ajman have less to offer. Social life is excellent in the diverse expat community. Loads of excellent hotels, restaurants, night clubs and pubs. Service is generally impeccable. Plenty of outdoor activities; golf (expensive), water sports, quad biking, off roading and sandy beaches. Outdoor swimming pools and indoor gymnasiums are everywhere. There are also things like indoor tennis, squash, badminton etc. Depending upon your housing allowance, accommodation can be superb, although it is quite expensive but very much dependant upon area (Look on the Gulf News or Khaleej Times web site in the classified section for pricing). Schooling is also available to UK and US syllabi (not sure about Aussy though). Hospitals plentiful and well equipped. Pretty much, if you've heard of it, you can get it somewhere in Dubai. Being a muslim country, you need to be aware of local sensibilities, but that said, Dubai is very cosmopolitan and your western way of life has few, if any, restrictions placed upon it. Depending upon which company you will work for, you may never even come into contact with a local arab; so if you're after a great arabic cultural experience, avoid Dubai. On the other hand, if you want fun, plenty to do in your free time and an expat lifestyle which is probably secong to none, go for it. J

[the coyote]

Thanks Jellycopter, thats just the sort of info I was looking for.

[wde]

Talked to Cal Fryer there a few days ago;

For 8/4, pay is 5277 USD per month, every month..
for 6/6, pay is 75% of that figure..
I don't imagine there's much for benefits, ...but I don't know
About an 18-22 hr transit for the Wet coast of Canada...

They are hiring lots right now because of a new contract that requires 2 bums in the cockpit...I know several Canucks who have recently pulled pitch for the Gulf but haven't heard from them..

Also, they are contemplating going to a Daily rate, which according to my calcs would be about USD 300 per day...standard rumours of pay raises which are really related to $40 barrel of oil.

The Crew accom is currently full, so new hires are staying in a local hotel, and apparently they are soon starting construction on new digs...

As far as the tax issues go, at least in Canada, if you keep residency here, there is a legal obligation to declare all sources of income, domestic and foreign. I don't know if Abu Dhabi and Canada have a tax treaty though. so the money may not be very tax free if you know what I mean...;)

That's all I have now...if i wanted a job, there would be a ticket in my name...

[Steve76]

I know this has been thrashed around before, but what are the 'exact' tax laws for NZ and OZ on this one? There are lots of comments about it being Tax free but can any of you guys out there actually touring tell us your tales?
Does having no BELL time set you back?
As for staying home for the benefits....well I still have yet to get to the podiatrist and it is harder than one thinks to find time to use all the chiro. You need to visit your GP to get a massage authorised and the company still deduct $16 dollars a fortnight for the priviledge. Then the government take their 45%......! :mad:
As for the pension plan... I don't think a real return of -1% per annum is going far towards my retirement.
:cool:

[helmet fire]

Steve76, no idea what tax laws are in NZ.


But, and for Flungdung too, in Oz they are about to change and you will be taxed at the normal Oz rate unless you spend bu@@er all time back in Oz. No longer will 6/6 be tax free, but if you worked 10 months over there and only had two months back, you might get away with it. Run a search on the D&G forums as there was an extensive thread on this topic a few months ago, and all was explained.

This very thing caused me to pull out my application.

[Granny]

Steve 76
The tax deal in NZ is quite simple -they want your money no matter where you earn it. As a NZ citizen you are liable to pay tax on all earnings either from a local source or from an overseas one. When touring back to NZ and bringing in your overseas income if there is a reciprocal tax agreement between the NZ goverment and the country where your earned that money then the tax paid at source will be deducted off what you need to pay in NZ, However you then get into provisional tax payments , meaning you pay next years tax this year and make adjustments later.
As for working in an tax free enviroment eg Middle East and touring back to NZ you pay the appropiate amount back in NZ so it is only tax free in the country of source. You can get non resident tax status in NZ it involves selling any home you have used as a residence , your car , having no medical insurance policy etc etc and being out of NZ 245 days in the first year thereafter you can come and go as you please. You could look at putting it all into a trust but IRD are onto this as a tax dodge , so you would need to see a good accountant. Best live in NZ have your bank accounts overseas do your tours and use your overseas credit card to live off when in NZ. And declare what you bring home in your pocket.

[rotorboy]

Anyone using a grand cayman atm in the states will get screwed. There has been some in junction with these things and the iRS is tracking who/where and how...

so me money no speake no ingi

gud look fella - dont you read the economist...


rb

[Steve76]

Hi Granny and Helmet,

I had heard that the ex-ansett drivers had screwed us in the tax deal when they all shifted to working out of HK on tours. The aussie tax dept cottened on their attempts to bludge more than they deserved.
The reason I asked is because I know a few of the lads touring out of OZ and haven't been able to catch up with them in a while. So thanks for the reply.

Granny; I pretty much assumed that the best course of action would be to get a swiss account and live off the CC. It seems the most logical and safe bet if you are going to live this lifestyle. Still don't know what I will do with the kids thou....:)
It used to be 180days a year out of the country which wasn't that hard to achieve. I suppose that it will just make the O/S work less attractive on the whole for everyone if there are no advantages and you still are away from home.

The Canadians have a great system, where if you work for a Canadian company O/S you only pay 15% tax. Big adjustment from the 45% they normally charge... Still have to pay GST and PST thou...

Thanks again guys and if anyone has any further info please fill in the blanks..

Steve
;)

[Yabu]

Steve 76.
Just to add to Granny's writings on Nz tax laws, you will be able to do 180 days out of NZ each consecutive year after the initial long period of 245 days odd the first year. But as well as selling your assets, and telling the IRD you are to become a non resident, you must not have any dependents in NZ ie Wife or Kids. you can buy property in NZ as a non resident however, but you cant leave it behind so to speak as it appears that your intention is to stay . I think the NZ Ird website is www.ird.govt.nz. They have a section in there which will give you a clear idea on how to assess you personal situation regarding this cheers. It is easier i find to keep your family outside NZ, but not necessarily the one you work in. YABU

[M/V]

Hi rotorheads,
Has anyone out there ever worked in Oman, for Royal Flight or with the Omani Police in particular? Thanks in advance

[Airtoday]

M/V

I have been to Oman often and have flown there regularly. I have always, though, been a visitor.

I like the place and the people a lot. I think it is the best place to be on the Arabian Peninsular if you have to be there.

I do not know what it would be like to work for the organisations you mention though I have visited the Royal Flight residential compound and the facilities are good.

If you are based in Muscat life is not wild but there are a few excellent hotels and restaurants.

The Western expatriate population is comparatively small compared to other Middle East locations and is predominently British(nothing wrong with that)...and I would recommend the pub at the InterCon on Monday nights during quiz night for meeting people and arguing over the right answer.

The scenery in the mountains (flying) can be spectacular and you will not have to shell out a lot of money thereafter to go to the Grand Canyon because you will have already seen better.

A positive viewpoint but I hope it helps

[SASless]

Saudi based recruiter called....offered me $50,000 to work in Saudi for the Armed Forces there.....one year contract as a Bell 412 Test Pilot/Instructor. I reported that would be a significant paycut over what I make now in the USA. They countered by asking for my desires re: pay.....told them....was informed that the customer would only pay the initially offered amount. The pay for that same job (212's then) in 1975 when Agusta had it directly was almost the same as that offered in 2003.

Someone is definitely out of touch with reality these days! The Middle East operators all seem to think they are competitive with each other...and are in general....but are lagging behind the rest of the world it seems.

Anyone else having the same kind of luck when talking to those offering Middle East employment?

[Pub User]

Is there anything else involved? Some of the ME jobs offer a wage, plus a house, kids education, car and domestic staff, so the salary (tax free) doesn't have to stretch too far.

[SASless]

Also provided....bachelor housing, one economy ticket per annum, 30 days paid vacation, 2 five day holidays in country, transport to/from work, medical insurance, 1/2 months salary for contract completion. One year contract with automatic renewal.

I would suggest to you that a full year in Saudi with all things considered would require pay well in excess of pay received for living at home, and working at the mill.

Anyone that considers 50K per year a decent salary for living in Saudi, with no pork, poon, or booze and no transport for non-work use is a good deal......needs to do some reality checking. (IMHO) For a married man to leave his wife and children it certainly isn't worth the pay and perks being offered. You can earn almost that much as a starting pilot in the Gulf of Mexico and have a one week on and one week off roster to boot. Granted Lousiana and Saudi are not that much different....but at least you can get a good pork chop sandwich.

[Granny]

SaSless
You are quite right some ME operators are behind the 8 ball when it comes to dollars. 50 k is not near enough to go without Ham sammys and beer for a year. Some companys in the US pay that as a retainer before you even fly and get your hourly rate. The great line of tax free income is just that- a great line, it is only tax free at source of income if you have Mum and the rugrats back home and therefore meet residence status in your home country you pay your tax there. And even if you are single and go to Saudi for a year then return home in most countrys you havent been away long enough and the tax man will still want his cut.
Everywhere you go in this part of the world there are is still tax
Tax for service charges in resturants -municipality charges etc- they still get you.
Cost of living is high too so even in country those bucks go no where, go to the supermarket for a weekly shop and stand back! it anit cheap.
Still other things make up for the low pay and cost of living such as -- umm arrr arrr umm I will think about and get back to you

[B Sousa]

You can make more money than that as a Tour Toad in Vega$, plus walk around money. They set the price because they can get the Canadians in a Heartbeat for those kinda coins......

[spinningwings]

Well the great glut of (well quailified) pilots of past years is slowly drying up ....and the Middle east operators are veeeery slooowly finding out the haaard way that the guys they want will not come out to work for nothing ...the Canadians mentioned will soon dry up 'cos of the adverse exchange rate AND the fact that they WILL be liable for income tax unless they are non-resident, elswhere the Aussies and Kiwis that are well qualified are also being hammered by the adverse exchange rate and the unqualified ones can't do the job!! ...yea verilly we are living in interesting times ... pity the various managements don't yet see what they need to do (clue ....a 30% pay rise only puts crews back where they were a year ago prior to the US $ decline ????). ;) :confused:

[wde]

I have had a number of chats with Canadians aiming to work overseas...(when you guys post it, it sounds so derogatory...Canadians...) (LOL)...

Abu Dhabi Helicopters as much as offered me work over the phone..."Hurry up and send us a copy of..." but the money wasn't worth it: $3500 USD per month, no per diem, no transportation, unknown accommodations etc. And Gulf Heli was about $220 USD while on site (6/6 tours) with meal allowances of between $45-65 USD per day.

Not enough for this Canuck to leave home....

[griffo]

As someone who worked for this company in Saudi, I can safely say, STAY AWAY!!!!!
The annual ticket home is ONLY able to be used AFTER you have been there 12 months. The pay sucks, you have to share accommodation, although the villas aren't bad. Alcohol is available on the compound from people who make it there. Nice booze, if a little strong!!
July last year a bunch of us started in Saudi for this company. One pilot, 2 ground school instructors, 5 mechanics. By xmas that year, only 1 mechanic was left. Everyone else had resigned. Took the pilot nearly 5 months just to get clearance to fly!!!!!
As i said.... STAY AWAY!!!

edit for spelling :)

[Autorotate]

Can someone tell me what Saudi Aramco are operating and how many. Thanks for your help.

:E

[gnz]

Hi,
Try their Website (http://www.saudiaramco.com/cgi-bin/bvsm/JSP/home.jsp)

[Yarba]

ADA pays 17% more than Gulf, and it's a monthly rate, not a daily rate. The flying's more interesting too.
But....our accommodation still sucks:=

[Steve76]

17% more than what?
Most interested and thanks for your reply.

[Xnr]

Gidday Mate

Your not shopping....you love it where you are......

Long time no chit chat......

Cheers :ok:

[Steve76]

Geez Mate....
Just educating meself ya know!!
Do you want some cones? Not much demand for them around here anymore since the non-rev got cut.

:hmm:

[Xnr]

Box em up and send them over.......we'll put them in the middle of the 401 and create a GPS approach to the site.

[Fatigue]

Hey Gents, anybody ever worked for the above mentioned companies in Doha, Qatar, or Abu Dhabi? If so,any insight on working in that area in those countries?? Pay, benefits, social scene, crime, housing (married accom or single only), good maintenance, flying, schedules , lots of expats there or just a few,Etc etc?????
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks in advance.

[Yarba]

Fatigue,
Your post is a joke yes? Haven't you read all the old posts in this thread?
The pay in ADA has gone up, but nothing else and general pay in this area is still at the bottom end of the international flying scene.:sad:

[Fatigue]

ummmm, no it wasn't a joke, I posted it on the 5th dec, somehow it ended up at the bottom of the list, after I presume,as this topic had already been discussed last March, the forum moderator posted these old replies in front of mine!!!!!!!:suspect: Thank you anyway.

[Helipolarbear]

Check www.flightinternational.com jobs listing for Gulf Heli's positions.
Generic blurb about the pay being very attractive, 6 weeks on/off..and the rest!
Suggest you go up their website and ask for Andy Redfearn. He'll
tell ya the real deal. Captains on the 412,212,230 & 206 get from $48,000 + , about €39,000, or £27,000 TAX FREE....just imagine that..and all the sand and dust you can stomach...absolutely free.
If you are of the jewish faith, well ya know the answer to that!
Sounds like a great place to go for lonely dudes who can't find a heli job in mainstream 'free world' flying that gives them a decent Standard of Life..........

[Fatigue]

I don't know from where but I had heard it was good to fly out there:ooh: sounds crap, pays crap and grew out of building sandcastles years ago :p won't even consider that anymore, thanks for the info.

[TomBola]

flungdung,
I disagree. I much prefer Nigeria. The pay in Abu Dhabi is so low if you're on 6/6 that you don't have much money to enjoy yourself - especially as you have to pay for all your food out of that $50,000 a year. In Nigeria, with either of the 2 operators, for either 6/6 or 7/5 you'd be $20,000 a year better off, without having to work in your time off tour. Plus, your food is all paid for and there's loss of licence insurance, health insurance and both operators have some form of pension scheme (not very good, and depends on your age). As for moving out of the accomodation in Abu Dhabi, you'd then have the added expense of the rent (not cheap in Abu Dhabi) and you'd have to buy a car to get to work.
I admit that Abu Dhabi and Dubai are far nicer (and less dangerous) places to live and there's far more time off in country with the adoption of JAR Ops FDL limits, but there's just no comparison on pay. The other thing about Nigeria at the moment is that it seems that CHC are taking over ACN, so nobody knows what that will do to pay and conditions in the future. However, the turnover of staff in either ACN or Bristow seems to be a lot lower than it is in Abu Dhabi which maybe also says something.

[Mars]

As a matter of accuracy, there are no flight and duty times regulations in JAR-OPS (fixed wing or helicopter). What you might be subject to are the schemes that are drawn up under UK Civil Aviation Publication (CAP) 371 - The Avoidance of Fatigue in Aircrews, Guide to Requirements.

[TomBola]

flungdung,
You're absolutely right. The sports facilities in Abu Dhabi are considerably better than in Nigeria, where it very much depends on who you're working for and which contract you're on as to whether there are any facilities at all!
Even withouit a car you can still get out and about in Abu Dhabi as there are often others willinmg to give a lift, or you can call for an 'Al Gazelle' cab.
As for UK - can't understand why anyone would want to live there. It's cold, expensive and the taxman is not nearly as understanding as if you live in most other European countries. I think it's much better, and cheaper, to quit Europe altogether.

[Heliport]

http://www.ameinfo.com/images/sponsors/airshow_coverage.gif

Emirates and CAE expand into helicopter training

Operators of Bell 412 and 212 helicopters will soon be able to train on the first full-flight simulator of its kind in the Gulf region.

Emirates-CAE Flight Training announced today at a press conference at Dubai 2003, the 8th International Aerospace Exhibition, that it will commence training when the simulator is installed at its facility in Dubai at the end of 2005.

Emirates' Chairman, His Highness Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al-Maktoum, said: 'Expansion into helicopter training reinforces Emirates-CAE Flight Training as the centre of excellence for aviation training in the Gulf and Middle East.'

Emirates-CAE Flight Training is jointly operated by the Emirates Group and CAE under a 10-year teaming agreement.

Full report here. (http://www.ameinfo.com/news/Detailed/31992.html)

[Aser]

Captains on the 412,212,230 & 206 get from $48,000 + , about €39,000, or £27,000 TAX FREE

I'm just wondering..
How much for the Gulf Helicopters 500hrs co-pilots... ?

Regards.

[pjohnson]

I currently work for Gulf Helicopters, Doha. Sure, if you're out of work and have to put food on the table, then I guess you haven't got too much choice.

Otherwise the platitudes about it being a "nice" place to live should be ignored as the company is positively dangerous and a great many pilots are very actively trying to get out - including me.

Engineering is now so cronically undermanned and under-experienced that the Deputy Chief Engineer recently resigned in frustration and informed the pilots here just how dangerous engineering has become. But, in reality we already knew. You don't have to be a genius to see the majority of the company's experienced engineering staff leaving the place.

And 2 months later (November) our Chief Pilot resigned in frustration. What frustrations you might ask? Suffice it to say that an unsafe ops environment is paramount.

Good luck.

[Aser]

Thanks a lot for your sincerity!.
:ok:

[Nigel Osborn]

7000 hour co-pilots get US$145 per day on site, nothing when off.
I flew in Doha in the mid 70s and other than the poor management, it was an easy place to live and obviously facilities must be better by now. Incidently both the manager and chief pilot were 'removed' just after I left. I believe there has been a recent change in management which will probably need time to see what difference it will make.

[Mikila1A]

Hey Lads,

I know this issue was beat to death some time ago, but what is the shake on the happenings with Abu Dhabi.

Here that Cal is back flying the line.

Are they two crew yet?

Who is the knew CP?

Also heard they had a big shake-up with the wrench turners?

Any thruth to this is just or is our business doing what it does best.......gossiping!

[SASless]

What about JAR Time and Duty Hour limitations....they ignoring JARS?

They still have the same health killing accomodation blocks....complete with mold, mildew,and rot? Transportation still the same hassle? Same old empty promise....of new quarters?

[Mikila1A]

Thanks for the info lads,

but still, can anyone shed any light on why all this is happening. Do not tell me it has something to do with money, as I would find that very difficult to believe.

And why is Mr. F no longer Cp, was it his choice or a management choice.

[vfr440]

Place is a total shambles at present. Wouldn't touch it with a very long barge-pole. Engineers screwed, pilots now under a "Safety Manager (!!!) who acts as judge, jury and executioner all in one. So no feedback and thus Safety Management System has vapourised. Mitchell must go; otherwise the accident that will surely happen will occur sooner rather than later. All engineers making other plans; most pilots similarly.
Conditions exactly as described; most labout camps are at a higher standard.

Wouldn't bother even applying

[Mikila1A]

Ok understood, but why?

This apparently was "the place" to work, has it all come down to the almight dollar or just poor management, wait now I think I just answered my own question.

But seriously, why the big change so quick.

[vfr440]

I'm just up the road from them; visit when ever I can. Tremendous bunch of people but the mighty cent rules.

It appears incalculable damage has been done by management; they don't know it yet, but long term guys and estimate 70% of the comapny are actively looking for alternative employment. And seriously too!!

Not a good place to consider

[Yarba]

Money is cr*p.
A coat of paint doesn't make the accommodation any better.
Jeremy is CP but Ed the egomaniac thinks hes the boss and Jack is really running most things.
Contracts in Yemen and Iran unpopular.
No more fun firefighting in Spain.
Good guys, bad management.
However, more days off than in the old days and we had a pay rise last year, with rumors of another one this year. If it's any good, it might be worth considering again - but wait and see what happens to the pay and the $ for a few more months before applying.

[Bomber ARIS]

I thought that Cal was part of the furniture there?

What gives with the Spanish fire fighting deal? Anything to do with the increasing scarcity/price of 212 parts or just failed management of a contract??

Looks like the 2-crew concept will have to wait yet another year :confused:

[onemorepilot]

Terms and conditions ADA this year 2004??

Year 2000

basic salary/month= 15873 AED + food addition 650 AED. Total 16523 AED. ( divide the sum AED with 3.67 and you get USD. It used to be an fixed rate)

Life insurace 30.000 STG.

ADA reimburse for all medical expences (with some exeptions) when at work, otherwise nothing.

Airline economy ticket to "point of hire".

LOL (or what you can call it) 3 months salary (yes it´s true, an incredible approx. 13.500 USD)

Schedule 8 weeks on 4 weeks off.

Accomondation for free, and they are as described. Miserable!!

The pilots and technicians are a good bunch of guys!

I do understand the high turnaruond of personell

O.M.P

[Aser]

Until this last summer , Abu Dhabi's 212 were here doing firefighting , but this time with spanish pilots, and spanish "operators" in the left seat.
I'll try to get one of these operator seats this summer :}
I love those 212!
http://idd02np2.eresmas.net/P1010829-800.JPG
Regards.

[The Nr Fairy]

Appropriate reg for a machine involved in fire-bombing !

[talvin]

:D :D :D Good one, Nr Fairy!!!!:p :p :ok:

[Watchoutbelow]

That's David Seamen, the English goalkeeper in the backround, pumpin fuel!

[rotorheadcase]

Gulf Helicopters is just about to announce a pay rise....rumoured to be 12% which would put the line pilots on US$300 a day.....given that the housing here is excellent and the company will shortly be providing transport to and from the heliport, it puts them a lot closer to ADA now.

That said it's still not witout its fair share of problems, all of which have been done to death so you probably all know!!

Like everyone else in the region, Gulf Helis is recruiting and are short of pilots to the point where they are offering time and a half for pilots to extend their tours.

I agree with the opinion that Doha is not a bad place to live for a couple of years.

[empty pockets]

as i zero hour wannabe, i read these pages through interest, not job opportunities.

I've noticed on this thread there are pilots of all nationalities job hunting in the emirates. could someone please give me a rough idea of which licences can be used elsewhere without having to convert [i.e. where a FAA ticket can be used outside the US, a JAA one outside the EU, and a CASA one outside Oz].

hope i'm one day complaining of lousy conditions in foreign countries. ;)

Cheers,
Phil.

[arviator]

Hi folks.
Just had a quick look at Gulf Helis website, and it says they are offering, amongst other things, married accompanied positions, either contract or permanent. Can anyone shed any light as to the 'package' available for this option??

[pjohnson]

Hi All

It was announced yesterday that Gulf Helis pilots are to receive a 10% pay rise (only on their "base salary") as of 1 March 2004.

If you join now as a touring pilot (either 8 & 4 or 6 & 6) you will receive USD$292.70 per day for each day worked.

Don't believe the web site re married accompanied positions being available. They are now reserved for Line Trainers and above.

When you join you will be asked to go to Kish Island (in Iran). Here you will be expected to operate completely outside the Flight and Duty Times section of the Ops Manual. For example, fly all day, then night standby from 1800 to 0600, then fly all day again the next day. And people have done night medivacs and still been expected to fly all day the next day.

But as I've said before, if you have to put bread on the table, then I guess you have to risk it. Wonder how delightful Iranian gaols are :-)

[helicopterista]

Hey..

Can you please give the GULF HELIS WEBSITE.
thanks.

Fco.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Helicopterista,

Welcome to PPRuNe. The website is here (http://www.gulfhelicopters.com) .

[helicopterista]

Thanks.

Cheers.

[AirWon]

Please excuse my ignorance but I'm trying to figure out how the pay works for an 8&4 or a 6&6 for that matter. That's a hell of a lot of consecutive days of work before you get your leave. Assuming that you actually do get a few days off during the tour,(and I'm sure that's probably pretty bloody obvious, hence the little disclaimer at the beginning of the sentence), then are you paid the daily rate only for each day you are on shift and if so, then how many days should one expect to subtract from , say a 6 week stint, when trying to calculate exact pay?
I'm sure I could have worded that better, without sounding like an idiot but hopefully someone out there can figure out what the hell I'm talking about.

[Yarba]

Okay Air Won, this how it normally goes for what you, in America, call touring. If you work 6/6 for example, you may or may not get some days off, depends on the company. For the pay, with Gulf Helicopters you are paid a daily rate of $X per day on site either in Qatar or wherever they send you to work (whether you work or not), but you're not paid for the time you're on leave. so, for Gulf, on 6/6 you get $X x 183 per year. It does mean that your pay goes up and down. For ADA they also actually work on daily rate, but they just basically say that 6/6 is $X per year and 8/4 is $Y per year and then pay you one twelfth of that per month. It doesn't quite work out like that, but in general that's about it.
Hope that helps

[AirWon]

Thanks for the reply. Not much to entice someone really. Only about $55,000 give or take. For that amount, the tax benefit is minimal. No wonder guys are leaving in droves.

Follow on from my last. Aramco seems to have an ad out every week. Does anyone know how strict the ATP requirement is, assuming you exceed all the other minimums? Also, and I know this was touched on in an earlier post, does anyone have actual pay for these guys? Thanks gents.

[pjohnson]

Hi Airwon

Don't have the payscales but may I suggest you consider the following re Aramco:

1. You will be playing babysitter to local captains, ie. they will always be captain and you are there to "assist".

2. Check your government's travel advisories about travel to Saudi Arabia, especially the Eastern Province where Aramco is located.

Cheers.

[AirWon]

Thanks. Points taken.

[rotorbloke]

Im researching in to flying and working in the Gulf states particularly Kuwait. Any one out there who could help please?


Thanks.

The bloke.

[SiClick]

Kuwait is dry, and the locals are not that friendly. Try for the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain or Oman, I'd give Kuwait a miss!:D

[Middle East Pilot]

AirWon, Saudi Aramco has raised the starting pay for ATP Consultant pilots to $6180 per month on a 8&4 schedule. Additionally, pilots get $2100 per break for tickets (you buy it and keep the difference)

[Martin1234]

Generally speaking, are the helicopters air-conditioned?

To what extent can you get by in English? For example, are you able to get the terms and conditions from the car insurance company, phone company etc in English?

[Rotorbike]

You are joking about air conditioning aren't you???

Don't think I have met anyone in the Middle East that couldn't speak English.

[murdock]

I have been looking at the Gulf Helicopters website and was interested in going for a position as a co-pilot. I have about 950 hours with an FAA Commercial license, and was wondering, if anyone might know, what my chances would be and how I get in contact with them, as I have submitted their online form and heard nothing back from them.

In fact I would appreciate any help on the possibility of getting a commercial job in the Arabian Gulf. Main reasons, as I have been working in America on a visa that is due to expire in August.

Thanks.

[Steve76]

Murdock,

I did the same thing and received no reply. In fact, I think I did it twice which makes me double stupid...

[Yarba]

S76, murdock,
This is normal. ADA/Gulf don't normally reply until they have something to offer you. This often means yuu don't hear for a very long time. They also don't very often give conversion training, so if you don't have the type (Bell 212/412) or experience they need you may never hear anything. I'm sorry murdock, but with only 950 hours you probably don't have enough experience for either Gulf or ADA. Neither company will normally take anybody with less than a few thousand hours and Instrument Rating.

[chopski]

Hi All,

I am a relative new comer to the industry and only have 250hrs including NVFR and Single engine CIR.

I that ADA are recruiting, would it be a waste of time if i applied or should i just try and see what happens?

Any responce would be most welcome! I know how harsh but brutally true and honest pprune readers are.

And if nothing with ADA, maybe someone could suggest another option apart from getting the required hours.

Cheers:ok:

[spinningwings]

The harsh truth ........ you would be wasting your time,

Having said that ...keep dreaming the dream ...good luck.

:ok: :ok:

[Airtoday]

If you have an ATPL(H) endorsed for the 212 and want to work in one of the most vibrant cities on earth (Dubai) then contact me.

We offer married accompanied positions in a city which has everything.

If you would prefer single status living in crap accommodation for a bit more money then there are other operators in the Gulf better equipped.

Dave

[MickeyMouse]

hahahahahahahahahahaha

[Robbo Jock]

Flungdung, MickeyMouse,

So what's the problem with Dave's offer ?

[Demented]

We offer married accompanied positions in a city which has everything, but we won't pay you enough to enjoy it.

[Granny]

Demented- is right on the money or lack of it !!
Go for the crap accomidation deal Chaps rather than the crap money deal you will not save a dime at Aerogulf Services Limited Pay Company.
The money is right out the window.

[Airtoday]

Hi,

Many thanks for your replies.

Just so that there is no subterfuge I would like to lay it right on the line.

The salary here for a 212 pilot equates to just $50,000 a year but that is totally tax free. Also, you would be given an apartment or villa, depending on your marital status. This would have the utilities (electric, water, gas) paid for. You would also have medical insurance for you and the family.

Your air tickets home for you and the family would be paid for once a year. There is a generous allowance towards school fees.

The job is not demanding for a proficient pilot. Plenty of spare time to enjoy the many good aspects of Dubai such as the beaches, nightlife etc.

As I have said before, this is a vibrant city for vibrant people. Think positive and don't look at the negative.

[Autorotate]

Dont know much about the pay rates but on the two occasions I have visited Aerogulf they seemed like a good company to work for, great people, good morale, decent working environment and a good management team. From when I was there I think they have moved into new modern facilities at the Intl airport.

Dubai is a fantastic place and have spent a lot of time there. Everything is handy to get to, lot of ex pats around, heaps of trolley dollies working for Emirates that live all along the side of the highway linking Dubai to Abu Dhabi. Best way to spend the time off is go and hang out at the Barasti Bar on the marina at the Le Meridien Mina Seyahi, run by a cool South African called Michael Scully.

Booze is great there, not very expensive in my opinion and anything you want, you can get there. Anyway just my two cents worth.

Ned

[SASless]

Why the sudden need to advertise these jobs....as my memory serves me...it used to by personal invitation only....such as having a friend there who could speak at court for you? Now that all sounds nice....but $50,000 USD is not all that much to get worked up over nowadays! Just why is it the Gulf operators....Arabian Gulf that is....seem to be able to ignore the pay trends in the rest of the industry...it might be local tax free...but one is still away from home...working in a foreign land...and whether one likes to admit it or not....becomes a walking bullseye if he sports blue eyes and blond hair in that neighborhood.

I enjoyed my time in Bahrain...tolerated my time in Saudi...loved the Iranian experience...found Jordan to be pleasant...but once again....these neighborhoods are getting a bit sporty for Rednecks.

One man's opinon!:ok:

[Yarba]

Wow, $50,000 a year tax free!! All salaries in the Middle East for expats are tax free. With ADA at the moment you can earn just under $80,000 a year on 8/4 and during your 2 days a week off it's quite easy to visit Dubai, where you'll have a lot more money to spend.

Last time I thought about Aerogulf, I'd also have spent a lot of my money on school fees as the allowance is not so generous if you want to send your child to a good school. The house was also not fully equipped and I would have had to pay to ship a lot of personal possessions out.

Leave of only once a year is less than generous. even with ADA there are occasionally accompanied positions available for those already here on bachelor status.

My advice. Stay away until such time as Aerogulf decides to get intoi the real world with salaries so you can actually enjoy the life which is available in Dubai. It is indeed a great city, the job with Aerogulf is undemanding, but unless you have a second income (such as a military pension - which is what they rely on), forget it. They need to be forced to think about paying a decent rate. :(

[Airtoday]

Thank you for the replies.

I am particularly interested in those from from SASless and Yarba.

If SASless thinks that he would have a problem in Dubai because of blonde hair and blue eyes I think he should change his name slightly to SENSeless. This is one of the most tolerant and liberal places to be on earth. How is it where you are: Assless.

And Yarba is of course, and we can see where he is coming from,
an anagram of Araby.

Regards

Vadid

[MickeyMouse]

Sasless maybe incorrect about his blue eyes and blonde hair comment but it is totally put into the shade by Airtoday and his comments.....

All are just correctly stating that Aerogulf's wages are way behind other expat positions and you reply with remarks directed at the individuals.

Are you showing the standard of Aerogulf management in your comments or are they your own???

[Yarba]

airtoday,

Nice to hear someone speaking from a position of as much ignorance as you obviously have. SAS less was in that part of the world many, many years ago. I was here before Aerogulf was even thought of, and one of the founder pilots with your company, the late Ian Tulloch, was a close personal friend.

You obviously also know nothing of the desert if you imagine Yarba to be an anagram of araby (and what sort of a comment is that coming from someone who supposedly lives in and enjoys this part of the world :yuk: )

If you imagine Dubai is one of the most tolerant and liberal places on earth, try walking down the street with a bottle of Johnny Walker in your hand, wearing no shirt, at 5 pm in the middle of Ramadan.

But then again Airtoday is an anagram of airy toad, so maybe we can see where you're coming from, whatever that's meant to mean. As MM says, your comments are pretty pathetic if they are the views of the management of a company trying to justify its low wage policy.

:*

[whopwhop]

So whats the verdict...I've never been, is it good or is it a ****ter?

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Well guys on not wishing to stick my head in a lions mouth or walk on a mine field.
you all know i am just under 400 hours IR etc i did apply to the address above and sent my CV but not clear lf this is how it gos but to date i have not got a reply could this indicate that they are still looking for High time pilots. or is it that the chap is on leave and not got to his mail yet. I have also asked for information from this chap as to the state of play over there with regard to low time pilots in the left seat and would hope that although i think it is high time that they are looking for a little bit of insite into ops over there would be usefull
i will keep you posted.


Sincerely

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[chopski]

bravo 99,

I'm also low time and got a reply the very next day from Dave, who was very polite and informative on the situation of low time guys out there.
I'm sure he will get beck to you.

Good luck with the job hunting:E

[Mr Toad]

YARBA:

"Airtoday is an anagram of airy toad etc etc"; explain the whole sentence please.

I thought the thread was about pay and conditions, not prejudice. It's up to individuals whether a package suits their needs; but don't expect a foreign culture to be just like your home. If the whole deal's wrong, move along. It's called supply and demand.

At the same time remember there is a large supply of good but badly paid pilots from Australia and Canada looking to improve their lot and maybe they are the target of the advert.

[Airtoday]

When I started this thread I was offering pilots work; which seemed to me not too unworthy a thing to do.
From the initial responses received you would have thought that I was offering to buy your sisters.
Not every job going is the best paid, such is the nature of things.
Over the years many pilots have come here from less well paid positions; improved themselves, and gained experience. Many then left for better pay somewhere else. It's the way of the world.
To be met by howls of derision from such as Mickey Mouse with his "hahaha" who then comes back to try and take the moral high ground is ludicrous.
Another of those replying (no names) has just left here very recently. I know for a fact that he left a better, and more professional pilot than when he arrived. He has gone on to a more well paid job and none of his colleagues gave him a hard time for leaving. Quite the reverse, in fact, everyone was wishing him and his family the best of futures.
Many companies, including those in this part of the world, have gained benefit from the professionalism of our ex employees.
We prefer that our pilots stay as long as possible, and many do, as we give good living conditions and an excellent working environment. Also Dubai gives pilots' wives the chance to work if they are inclined to do so and this is a bonus to many.
My apologies if anyone was offended when I bit back a little at some of those with a very negative input. It should be me who took offence at the frontal assault received from entering an honest job ad.
No offence taken. What I want to do though, is thank all of you who replied to me applying for the job. I wish we had enough positions available to give you all the work which has been so scorned upon by some of those who replied above in their well paid ivory towers.
The response has been magnificent. I have had the chance to reply to about thirty so far and I will send a reply to the rest of you in the next few days when I get time to do so.
Unfortunately for those with lower time, or not rated on the Bell 212, I have been given a lot of choice. Surprisingly we seem to have far more experienced and qualified people looking to come here than those who we are looking to replace.
I must also say that any views given in this thread, other than those directly relating to the jobs offered, are my own only.


All the best
Airy Toad

[SASless]

If you would prefer single status living in crap accommodation for a bit more money then there are other operators in the Gulf better equipped.

Dave ([email protected])


Dave,

I think ,upon reading my post again to make sure I said what I thought I had said....the above quote from yours is what jangled your chain....when compared to my statement that $50,000 US local tax free was no big deal. That is what a great many of American pilots are making now...after paying US Taxes and being able to live at home.

Anyone that does not think the potential for being a target for some Paradise Bound Extremist exists in the Middle East or downtown Brooklyn for that matter...needs a reality check. I will accept that Bahrain, Dubai, and some other places in that part of the world are much better than some others...but still Bubba ain't welcome by all of the locals.

I do not walk in fear of them...have very recently entertained a potential offer to fly in Baghdad...and when a formal offer is made...will decide what to do based upon the totality of the offer to include pay and duties compared to risks. I will freely admit that $50,000 dollars per year to live in the Middle East full time is not enough to draw me there...in fact...that is not very far from the pay I got for my first Middle East gig way back in the early 70's.

You answered the question of why you do not pay more....you can get guys to work for such wages until they can find something better....not an attitude I would hold out as being the one I would endorse as a manager and don't in actuality. I want to locate, recruit, hire, and retain good people...and keep them until they retire. It makes life a lot nicer for all concerned.

[Aussierotor]

I would have thought all pilots would be looking to improve.
The ones who apply for the job are probably improving on the job they have now.

Money seems to be the motivation-----to hell with the life style.

Lets face it ,how many of you guys,if the opportunity arrived ,and the money wasnt too bad,got offered a job 5 miles from home.

Then there is the "experience the world" factor..If you happen to like a place to do the life long career ,then good on ya but in most cases its JUST a job until something better or somewhere better turns up.

THATS LIFE

[Airtoday]

Thank you for your reply SASless.

Yes, I know that the average take home pay in the US, after tax, would be about what we are offering. So, if you are looking to finish work and be home with the family an hour after landing then you should come here.
I have two growing daughters with me in Dubai. They have both gone out to see Alicia Keys in concert tonight. I don't know who she is. Next week I am going to see Bryan Ferry live. I am of an age who does know who he is.
Last year it could have been Elton John or Pink Floyd or Mariah Carey; it doesn't matter who they are, but they are all here within thirty minutes from home.
My point is that you decry such a salary for being away from home. When you are here it is home. There is far more going on in Dubai than in Des Moines or Great Falls.
My apologies for calling you SENSeless.

Regards
YT Radio

[Granny]

Airtoday has a point , I spent 2 and a bit years in Dubai with Aerogulf, didnt get rich by any means- but gained alot professionally, got typed in a 212 and enjoyed a different culture and enviroment to which myself and my family had previously experienced. And made alot of friends and a few enemys!
Socially its a great town , with the Rugby sevens ,concerts, Dubai World Cup etc etc
The job is a no brainer except for the night offshore flights ,which hones your night flying and IFR skills.
Give it a try , you wont get rich ,-might not even save anything,- but look at it as I did after a while,- a working holiday where you can take your family along and enjoy the time off exploring the Middle East region, Oman is right next door and trips to Muscat and Oman I will always fondly remember.
When you get sick of it ,bailout as I did and go back to the real world get a proper job and work for a living.;)

[bloggs@large]

As ONE of the recently departed ( quit NOT fired, so I have no nasty bias) I thought I should take the time to post a general advisory opinion of Aerogulf Helicopters (AGS) in Dubai. Maybe some kind unbiased ADA or GHC pilots could do the same.

MONEY. AGS is the lowest paid (by far) helicopter company in the Gulf. Apparently they used to use the low oil prices as an excuse. Now they use the excuse “ We are a ‘married accompanied’ employer and this costs the company a lot of money”. How become Abu Dhabi & Gulf Helicopters have married accompanied and still pay a much better wage??? Every month this year there has been the promise of a pay increase BUT nothing has happened. There are ADA pilots renting in Dubai and commuting to work at ADA and still making more money than at AGS. Especially with a bit of work over money as well. The cost of living in Dubai is high & rising.
Speaking of promises – Get all that you are offered in the pre employment verbal discussions IN WRITING. The previous Director of Operations (KA) made all sorts of promises to new hires, about money, and there is now at least one very unhappy pilot. A note of interest about KA – He has been fired from his job in OZ. What a trail of trauma this man has left behind him!!!

ACCOMMODATION. Generally good BUT again you may not get what you were verbally offered. Home maintenance is slow and typical sub continent standard.

SCHOOL FEES: A low percentage of fees are paid BUT schooling here is EXPENSIVE.

MEDICAL INSURANCE. Good coverage BUT you have to make a healthy contribution to the premiums.

OPERATION. Very clean simple (boring) and legal, back to what it was before KA became D.Ops. UAE is well on the way to JAR compliance.

HANGAR OFFICE COMPLEX. Nice & new.

AIRCRAFT & MAINTENANCE. The ‘on the floor’ engineers are GOOD. The same cannot be said of the ‘upstairs’ people, they have been poor for some years. 6 Bell 212s - Old in years but some are reasonably young hours wise. 4 are Bell AFCS IFR and 2 are very old Sperry IFR. A mix of –3 & -3B engines. A 206. & a 412 in bits

MANAGEMENT. The GM is the only Western Helicopter GM in the GULF AREA and without doubt the most intelligent. Apparently, when he was Chief Pilot he was a very amiable caring competent person. It would seem that the GM PRESSURE is affecting him. He has become prone to temper tantrums and has loudly voiced his desire to fire every one in the company. I have heard it said that at one stage his nickname was FTF (FIRE THE F*****S). Generally he does not want to know your problems. BUT, he MUST have a soft spot in his heart because he likes to hire the Cast Off incompetents from ADA. (Not you GT).
Now GM, do not get angry. Try to remember that your workers contribute hugely to the good name of your company. Sure, they have / create the odd problem. Try a little communication and guidance. Maybe it is better ’the devil you know’ in your own company than an unknown from elsewhere.

TRAINING. Despite what I wrote about the GM, if you get him for Bell 212 training you will be in VERY good hands. As for the other Training Captain you won’t learn much at all. As another departed pilot said of him; ‘His only qualification for that job is that he baby sits the GMs dogs when the GM is on leave!!!!!’

ASSISTANT GM / D.Ops If you want to talk Tilt rotors – He is your man. Not likely to stick his neck out for anyone or anything.

CHIEF PILOT. (Dave in Dubai ) Definitely an honorable man.

ADMIN HUMAN RESOURCES. All sub continent folks but mostly they do a good job without the usual aggravation found at ADA.

DUBAI. There are lots of events and things to do. It appears to be half way between western world and Islamic world. Behave and you will be OK. Always remember you are a second class citizen when it comes to problems with the LAW. Traffic is bad- no one knows the rules and a certain group believe the rules do not apply to them anyway.
The rulers in Dubai do their best to keep the place safe, BUT you are living in an unstable part of the world. Recent headlines showed that peaceful little Doha, never thought they would have trouble there, had a car bombing NOT very long ago.

Basically that is it. You can earn a LOT MORE money at other companies, ADA & GHC, in the Gulf. These companies are WELL worth applying to.

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi Bloggs

Is this KA ex RAN, ex Lloyds, ex CASA, ex Oman and maybe a few others???

[SASless]

Bloggs dear fellow...

You tell the other side of the story...except for the money...you have described most overseas opportunities...like the old poster of the leathery faced cowhand, rolling a cigarette, with rain water pouring off his hat...and the caption "...and when I hired on with this outfit...there were a lot of things they didn't tell me!"

The inescapable truth here is AGA does not pay a decent wage and tries to disguise it with smoke and mirrors. When they want to pay so much less than any other operator around and brag on what a grand deal it is...while suggesting homeboys that are underpaid will find it a good deal. That merely indicts both places. Sounds like the Oz guys need to take a lesson from the North Sea pilots and the Gomers.

The lifestyle beats Saudi...the managerment sounds about the same...the equipment sounds better than some other places....but in the end...if you are taking a job that you know is only temporary and will not lead to retirement...then it seems a bum deal that kills any chance of settling in for the long term. If they are destined to have a constant turnover...maybe they need to revamp their program and start a "training scheme" where a young fellow gets his offshore and twin turbine experience and when fully qualified....trains his replacement....then moves on to less sunny climes.

[Rich Lee]

When I was a young man I would have jumped at an opportunity like the one offered in this thread. I am pleased that the offer has been made here and hope that other potential employers will not be dissuaded by the comments here from posting other job offers on Pprune Rotorheads.

This position may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is honest work with a respectable operator in one of the best places to live in the Middle East.

Airtoday, I thank you.

[bloggs@large]

Sorry for the delay in replying. The boss thought I should go off and do a little work. So here is a quick reply.

NIGEL OSBORNE – Yes that KA is the man (?) you describe. If the stories are half true, I do not understand why the Australian CASA did not shred his licence when they fired him.

SASLESS – Part of the problem of this game is Oil Companies put such ridiculous requirements for copilots in their contracts. How are the young guys going to get the experience? If a ± 700 hour pilot has a DECENT basic ability and some P1 time on commercial operational flying, where he has had to make his own decisions, he will have no problem being an offshore P2 and go on to make P1. There is also this demand for the magic ATP. I have heard the oil company auditor asked the following question. If your life was in the balance and conditions were BAD who would you rather have driving the helicopter – a minimum hour ATP or a 10,000 hour CPL IR. The usual reply was –‘An ATP is standard requirement’ !!!!
I have flown with some excellent CPL IR pilots. ATP is only an exam and does not automatically create a good pilot.

RICH LEE – I don’t think I ever said ‘Do not go to Dubai’ anywhere in my post. I merely pointed out the situation as I fairly ( I think) see it. I really do not care where any body works BUT if I were looking for a job, I would like to know where I could do tours AND get more money. Your ‘name’ seems familiar. Didn’t you try the other companies and miss out, before you went to Dubai??

[Flying Lawyer]

bloggs

Perhaps Rich Lee's name seems familiar to you for this reason.
Click here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98967).

[Rich Lee]

To: Bloggs@large RICH LEE – I don’t think I ever said ‘Do not go to Dubai’ anywhere in my post. I merely pointed out the situation as I fairly ( I think) see it. I really do not care where any body works BUT if I were looking for a job, I would like to know where I could do tours AND get more money. Your ‘name’ seems familiar. Didn’t you try the other companies and miss out, before you went to Dubai?? Please do not be offended by my comment. It was not directed at any one person or any post in particular. Pprune Rotorheads is a veritable haven where the petty comments and attacks so prevalent in other forums are the exception rather than the rule thanks to the tireless and much appreciated efforts of the moderators in this and other Pprune Forums. Were I a pilot looking for employment, I would appreciate information regarding available positions throughout the world and would exercise due diligence in researching any situation I might consider accepting. Certainly if you know of a company with an open position I would be interested in learning about it or any fair comment regarding the pros and cons of a particular situation.

The inference implied by your question was of a nature best suited to those other forums, but in response I have never applied for employment in the United Arab Emirates. I have been offered several unsolicited positions with various companies and government authorities over the years; a few of which I have seriously considered. I have been to the U.A.E. several times for both short and extended periods (my most recent visit was as a participant in the Dubai Airshow). I honestly consider the U.A.E. one of my favorite places and one of the most vibrant and exciting places of commerce in the world. I have many close friends there - citizens and expatriates, military and civil. I have no tie to any particular company and my comment was not biased by preference or prejudice.

[diethelm]

A BIT OF PERSPECTIVE

Any posting of a job offer, no matter what the terms, is a BRILLIANT IDEA. Everyone here has a brain and can make decisions for themselves. If we have the capacity to fly an expensive aircraft, I would argue we have the judgement necessary to look at the pros and cons of a job offer. For those who want to pursue such opportunities, awesome. For those who do not, awesome.

I would love to use my commercial rating and go out and fly for a living. However, it does not pay well. This should not be a surprise to anyone who has the intellectual capacity to pass a check ride. No matter how organized everyone is, there is only so much money in the industry and you all knew it when you chose this career.

Consider yourselves lucky. All of you have the self esteem and perserverance to do something you like everyday. My job is boring, tedious and full of people with anger issues who are in denial (which, by the way is not a river in Egypt).

Reflect on the great things all of you do everyday. Go to the pictures thread and look at what neat places and things you do everyday. It is really cool.

As a last thought, any job in Dubai is probably a better way to build your resume than how many of the contributors in this forum built theirs in the 60's.




:uhoh: :uhoh:

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Thanks for the heads-up, Flying Lawyer. I enjoyed reading the posts from your link. Rich Lee has a good sense of humour as well as ATOS (all that other stuff). Loved the Brietling comment...

With regard to employment conditions in the Gulf, supply and demand surely governs what is paid - as it does everywhere else. Until supply of suitably qualified drivers dries up, employers have the capability to pay what they like - you can't hold that against them.

Of course, this is all complicated by the pilot-group factor....

[rotorboy]

Did anyone get a response from Air Today? I sent him a msg , when this was first posted , asking about the operation, flying in the middle east, and experience needed (with a summary of my experience). I didnt get a reply,anyone else, or did my msg get lost?

RB

[Nigel Osborn]

Airtoday answered my question within hours of me emailing.:rolleyes:

[chopski]

also heard the next day, thanks for that dave. even though it was a thanks but no thanks. but what did i expect with only a few hindred hours and ir

:{

[Airtoday]

ROTORBOY

Many apologies. I do try to reply to all (and will send a personal message). If there is anyone else like Rotorboy who has not received a reply from me yet please have patience.
Amazingly I have had over three hundred replies to this Ad.
Some people have had a reply immediately because I have been sitting in front of the computer when their mail arrived. Other times I have been away for a few days and have been a bit overwhelmed.

That Pprune should be the number one venue for looking for pilots when you need them is now, to me, beyond dispute. I know that Flight International must be quaking in their boots with £300 plus slots for one week only.

Thank you all for the (even very negative) replies.
And many, many thanks for the positive.

Ray Diato

[rotorboy]

Airy toad,
no problem, check your PM.

Thanks

RB

[Airtoday]

Our requirements are about the same. Without the type rating those replying, who are qualified, would come down to twenty per cent. With the type rating and experience on type (212), we would have a choice from 20 out of 300. This does not mean, of course, that we would restrict future employment to those only who meet every one of our requirements.
From the 20 qualified, maybe three quarters are making inquiries for the sake of "could I have an option if I choose to leave here."
I end up with five serious contenders for one or two available positions.
Which, of course, is the aim of the game.
I hope this answers your question.

[Mikila1A]

Hey All,

Can anyone dispell a rumour that we are hearing that ADA is opening a flight school (Horizon Aviation) somewhere in Al Ain (UAE) or close to there.

Apparently a bunch of 206's, Astars and maybe one or two mediums.

or is this a rumour, yes rumour....can you imagine a rumour here:yuk: :O :ok:

[SASless]

Must be a rumor....or rumour....the actual helicopter to be used is the now out of production Commanche's left over from the cancelled US Army contract. Seems the sidestick controls will allow for Jhrobe wearing students to maintain their cultural identity. Primary trainers will be ex-US Army AH-1's for the same reason....front seaters will have access to the same style side stick controls.

[Autorotate]

Yes the school does exist, sat down and chatted with their GM and Deputy at the Dubai Airshow. They have a number of Bell 206BIIIs and are adding some AS350-B3s later this year or beginning of next.

Not sure if it is tied up with ADA but they have a Sheikh behind it and he seems to have a bit of money to throw at it. If you want a contact there drop me an email.

Autorotate.

[Airtoday]

Maybe I should have started another thread for this subject but it is extremely relevant to where I began.
Abu Dhabi Aviation, in their wisdom, have decided that their pilots will retire at 60 years old.
This came as some surprise to many who were approaching this age as the UAE allows pilots over that age to continue in two pilot operations until they are 63.
Suddenly, at Aerogulf, in Dubai, I am never going to have a recruitment problem. Thank you very much Abu Dhabi.
I wish you had told me this two months ago because these people with between eleven and twenty thousand hours (mainly on type and offshore) are a Godsend to a small company..

Airytoad

[Spunk]

So, does that mean that I have to wait another 30 years before I can apply for a job at AeroGulf???:}

[Airtoday]

I guess it does Spunk.

Sit out there and bide your time.

Airytoad



BUT?

[SASless]

Age Limit.....

So long as you can toddle out to yer ride....you can fly in the USA. Why, down in the GOM...there are pilots in their 70's who have had dual hip replacements....must be something about sitting in Bell seats for two many years!

[spinwing]

Don't get too excited yet! ... as with most things at ADA they may reviewing their age 60 decision .... ssstay t t tuned in fffolks ...

;) ;)

[Airtoday]

Hi Spinwing

Logic would dictate that they do not do this when they are short of pilots. To me it would be blatently obvious that if I needed people to fly my aircraft I would keep those with the most experience as long as they are fit and healthy. If Abu Dhabi find that they would prefer the younger untried types then I would be extremely grateful for their castoffs if I have space for them.

Airytoad

[rotorboy]

Hey Dave,
I was wondering if you ever did get my email regarding flying in the UAE, experince, oppertunitys general living/lifestyle questions.

Thanks

Barry
RB

[spinwing]

Aahhhhhh Yes!

..... dare I say, you have been around long enough to know that "Logic" really has nothing to do with decision making in the UAE has it? mmmmm .... ;) :cool:

[Yarba]

Spinwing has it right. The matter of maximum acceptable age has not yet finsihed running its course at ADA, so Airy Toad may not be getting any cast-offs yet. The final answer should be decided fairly soon.

[Airtoday]

Congratulations to ADA for making the right decision for their pilots and their company. I hear that they are going to retain those approaching sixty. Maybe not the best news for us who could have benefitted from their experience and skill but the right decision for everyone else. I applaud you for your eventual common sense.

Airy Toad

[Airtoday]

There are, and have been, many dangerous places on earth. Dubai is not one of them. It is a safe haven for people of all nationalities.

In the last two months I have offered work to two Americans and have gone through all of the lengthy paperwork involved; and have them say (at the last minute) "It's too dangerous in the Middle East, I'm not coming".

"Stay in New York or LA and get mugged or shot."

I, now, am looking for a good and honest helicopter pilot who wants to live and work in one of the better places on this planet.

Replies to [email protected]

Dave

[RDRickster]

Airtoday, how about providing a little balance in your commentaries? A "safe haven?" Holy Exageration, Batman! I've spent some time in the middle-east, and I have to say the New York is MUCH safer. Granted, with large populations you have to conduct yourself with a degree of care, as with ANY city (meaning, use your "street smarts" when in town). There are threats in EVERY environment, but there are MORE threats to Westerners in your neck of the woods than in other areas. To claim otherwise is ignorant or at least irresponsible. There are other opportunities for pilots with equal pay and quality of life issues, so why work for you? With increased risk, there should be increased pay; however, it seems that the folks with experience in your area indicate that is just one of many items that seems lacking. You need to package your adventures in employment opportunities in a more accurate light. That way, the candidate knows exactly what they are getting into and both will be happy (and put some more meat on the table you cheap @#$%^&*). :}

[Mikeb]

RDRickster.. Like many people I think you have formed your opinion of Dubai and the UAE based on the constant garbage broadcast on your wonderfully impartial TV news stations.

I live both in Dubai and the UK and am in the process of moving to Dubai full time with my family. From my personal experience I feel Dubai is the safest places I have ever visited. Crime is not an issue, drugs and violence do not seem to exist. The people are friendly and generally helpful. I can leave my car unlocked with my mobile phone on the seat while I go into a shopping centre without the worry of it being stolen. Tell me if there is anywhere in the US that you can do that? I have been to New York and there is just no comparison, Dubai is so much safer.

When we announced to our friends and family that we were moving out to Dubai, the ignorant people said "Oh don't they make the women wear head scarves and walk three paces behind the men!" The people who have been there or had done any research said "I wish we were coming with you"

Why do people love bashing the Middle East? Maybe they are just looking to blame some other part of the world for the problems in there own country?

As for working in Dubai, if I had an ATPL/CPL and the relevant qualifications I would love to...

[Staticdroop]

Sounds interesting working in the middle east, there are problems everywhere, good weather etc. I just wish i could get an answer to my email regarding opportunities:* I know you may be busy or already have your people just a quick note to say #@*** off fatso will do.:8

[RDRickster]

Mikeb, it seems you are better-informed than most, but I don't agree with your "Ward & June Cleaver" assessment of the area. I've spent a fair amount of time in the middle-east, so my opinions aren't based on the garbage they put on TV. Even if you take the Iraq conflict out of the equation (for the sake of argument), my comments still stand. There are a LOT of positive things to be said for the middle-east for those with open minds, but let's put things into perspective. Airtoday should not be writing comments through rose-colored glasses. When expectations don't meet reality, then you have moral problems and other issues... just tell it like it is.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm .... Well I have worked in the UAE on and Off since early 1980 and can tell you that it is a great and safe place to be ...if you really want dangerous "locals" you can go to Papua New Guinea (or New York) the most seriously dangerous thing about the UAE is keeping out of the way of the Taxi Drivers!!!

:ok: :ok:

[helipat]

I'm resident in Dubai for almost two years now, and I confirm that's one of the safest place in the world I've seen so far.

But as a working or living environment I'm not sure that I would like to stay there for years...

regards

PS: By the way are you recruiting a poor CPL/IR/CFI with only 500 hours :rolleyes:

[anjouan]

R D Rickster,
Saying you've spent some time in the Middle East and it's more dangerous than New York is completely meaningless - it's just a geographical area. Akin to saying there can't possibly be any mountains in Europe, because you've spent some time in Holland and never saw any!
The Middle East is a large geographical area, encompassing many countries, some pretty dangerous and violent places and some, like the United Arab Emirates decidedly not so. Airtoday was just telling it like it is about one country there - UAE which even a simple search on Google will reveal to be a considerably safer place in terms of personal safety than New York (and most major American cities). I don't think he's wearing rose coloured spectacles at all. It may not be the best place on earth to be, and his company certainly isn't paying great wages, but I felt a great deal safer when I was in Dubai than when I was in Houston.
If anyone has already accepted employment in an overseas country, unless something pretty serious has happened there to completely change their mind since they started investigating how it would be to work in a country like that, it's pretty unprofessional to pull out at the last minute. Presumably these individuals had done some homework, thought about personal safety issues before applying and knew what the pay was when they accepted.

[Martin1234]

Even if it was the safest place on earth, why would any westerner move to UAE as long as they can make the same money at home?

Airtoday, did the US pilots meet all of your experience requirements and do they already hold a type-rating? If they do, does it come as a suprise to you that they bailed out?

[HeloTeacher]

Airtoday, I think the manner of your posts is what is generating the negative return fire. For example:
If you would prefer single status living in crap accommodation for a bit more money then there are other operators in the Gulf better equipped.
-is a very good example, from your first post in this topic, of how you turn a very positive message on its ear.

You take offence when your 'crap' wages are compared to the 'crap' accommodations. Well, you started it.

Again, you have posted:
There are, and have been, many dangerous places on earth. Dubai is not one of them. It is a safe haven for people of all nationalities.
-maybe, maybe not, but an American living ANYWHERE in the Middle East would be nuts to take things for granted. They aren't 'any nationality' these days. So far, I don't see anyone with a southern drawl supporting your assertion that Dubai is the 'safest haven on earth'.

These 2 guys ae a lot better off, and you are too, to have made the decision before arriving in Dubai, realizing it isn't acceptable, and trying to leave then. From what I've seen here, I'm betting your presentation of what to expect is extremely rosy and their subsequent research didn't match. To me, when investigating potential places to work or live, this is a red flag!

As expatriates, and looking like westerners, we will attract negative attention.

There are lots of QOL issues to address. As a case in point, right now I'm making 25% more than you offered and get 6 months of the year at home. Compared to most people working Mon to Fri, I see my kids more than they do. Where I'm working in west Africa was never advertised as safe but as long as one is careful, no problems.

Try to be less sensitive when your aggressively presented rosy views are challenged. The world is a big place and the people you are addressing here have seen much of it.

If you are really looking hard still for people, I'll pass the info along to a couple guys I know who may be interested.

[Tokunbo]

airtoday,

Safe, for now, from personal attack maybe, but so-called justice in the Emirates can also endanger your personal health. I know an Antipodean pilot now working in 'dangerous' West Africa, who was once working in your safe haven. He had been working in a neighbouring country where he bought a car. When he left he sold the car and paid off his loan, but because of an error in the paperwork of the dealer, the loan was marked as unpaid. Money being more important than life to many people in that part of the world, an Interpol arrest warrant was issued and as he was departing on leave he was arrested at the airport and thrown in jail. His company did nothing at all to help him and it was just his friends, with help (slight) from his embassy who took him decent food and tried to get matters sorted out. In the meantime he was transferred from the town jail to the really harsh conditions of the desert prison where his physical condition rapidly deteriorated. He was eventually driven back to Abu Dhabi airport in a prison wagon, in chains and deported, despite no charges ever being levelled against him.
Nice place to work...... He's very happy now in 'dangerous' Africa, making considerably more money for the same amount of time off - and he was working for the 'other' company with the cr*p conditions which pays a lot better than yours.
Tell me, are all your contracts in the Emirates? A number of companies from your part of the world now also have contracts in nice 'safe' places like Yemen and Iran where pilots get shot. They and/or their families may be living in a safe haven, but they are sometimes called upon to work in other countries in the region which definitely feature in nobodies 'desireable places to work' list. :ugh:

[spinwing]

Errr Tokunbo ..... you sorta got the story a bit wrong ...

He was not deported he was released, though the Jail experience was traumatic he did in fact continue to work for the "crap company" for another year or so and did quite a lot of good work revitalising a contract in Iran for the "crap company" ...his reason for leaving was to achieve a career improvement (as well as a bigger paypacket).

Time will tell whether that goal will be achieved.

Wonder which would be worse ...a Nigerian jail or a UAE one ...I would not wish to experience either ....

cheers :ok:

[Airtoday]

Well previously I have been called Airy Toad but I would like RDRickster to pronounce the name he has given me above. I am not sorry I did not give you a job RD. Stay dumb and unhappy in Maryland.
Can you believe the venom of some people.
I like the sensible and balanced views of those like Mikeb, Spinwing and Anjouan. These people know the place and understand that I have not been misrepresenting it.
I know that I have a confrontational style. You are right HeloTeacher. I don't mind seeing the negative views because it brings out the positive.
As for Martin and the numbers: "Yes, sure you can make the same money or more at home." BUT "How did you become a helicopter pilot if you didn't have a sense of adventure."
And, Helipat, you have lost me there!

Airytoad

[RDRickster]

Airtoday, you must have missed the smiley face at the end; therefore, my weak attempt at humor was lost. No venom or mallus intended, but my points were brought to light by many of the previous posters. In the end, the discussion provided more of the information which really should have come from you in the beginning.

And, no I did not apply for the job - at least I'd know what to expect if I did (based on my own experiences, not what you posted). Your previous description of the area lacked a little realism for the Western foreigner. If you lost your candidates at the last minute, then perhaps you should ensure that expectations match reality for both.