LHR Stacks.

[rubberjungle]

Just wondering when you allocate an inbounds position in the relevant stack at LHR.
If we slow down during descent are we liable to slip back in the queue? Or is it assigned on first handover to London Ctrl.

[250 kts]

As we've just found that we're not getting the promised bonuses, WHO CARES WHETHER YOU LOSE YOUR PLACE OR HAVE TO HOLD--I DON'T ANY MORE.

[Nuke the Bastards]

Sadly, rubberjungle, 250kt's reply to you sums up the feeling of a lot of operational controllers within NATS.

We are sick and tired of being dumped on by a Management that has proved itself to be inept and hopeless, yet still gets away with it. The reason being that the "coal face" workers keep on keeping on, despite it......

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi Rubberjungle. The landing order is determined somewhat in advance of your arrival at the holds. The ATC-estimated stack-arrival times are presented on a computer display in order of stack-arrival time. It is not determined by the hand-over to London Control but by the time you pass a point in space a certain distance from the stacks. The machine also determines EATs, etc. Some 15-20 minutes before stack-ETA your order in the sequence is determined by an EAT Allocator (one of us!) and the EAT you are passed is calculated on that order. If you then slow up it should not effect your slot but there are many variable involved: Because of extreme pressure from the airlines we have to achieve the very best landing order so the final sequence is determined more by weight category than by actual stack entry time. This means that you might find other traffic which has arrived at a hold before you leaving ahead of you but you will not incur more than an extra few minutes delay. Tomorrow you might be the lucky one.

Lastly, the final decision as to the landing order lies with the final director (120.4) who pops you on to the ILS, although under normal circumstances he will be presented with traffic in the order determined by the procedures outlined above to achieve a smooth sequence.

[Asda]

Rubberjungle, perhaps you just caught them at a bad time. If EATs are being given out then your place is allocated whilst you are some way from the stack and certainly before you receive your EAT. If you're told 'you won't lose your place', you won't. If in doubt ask. With holding over 20 mins (the criteria for issuing EATs in the first place) in MOST cases it helps or makes no difference if you slow up. The less a/c at a stack at any one time make it easier to handle, if only so we can see the data blocks on the radar which overlap when a/c are close laterally. Again, if in doubt ask. And yes we are very pissed off with the bonus thing.

[eyeinthesky]

To answer the original question: If the delays are reasonable (say 15 mins+), then the Traffic Manager will be arranging the order based upon the estimated time of arrival at the stack, which in turn comes from the time of entry into UK airspace (or flight activation if from another UK airfield). Therefore in theory slowing down will not lose you your place. There is I suppose a slight chance that you might get behind somebody by 1 min or so, but it's not that crucial, is it?. Once you have been given an EAT (delays 20 mins or more) then slowing down will not affect that EAT. However, please ask before you do so, as there may be somebody behind you who we are not yet talking to and who might catch you up. If you do slow down, you MUST still be able to make any level restrictions.

When the delays are shorter, there is no hard-and-fast rule, as the order is decided by LHR director based upon achieving the maximum movements and best vortex spacing. Therefore you could say that if you slow down inbound LAM you MIGHT end up behind somebody off BNN.

Surely if you are worried about fuel, then slowing down earlier will save you fuel burnt in the hold, and therefore your position in the EAT queue becomes less crucial as you have more fuel available, if you see what I mean.



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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[eyeinthesky]

Sorry for the duplication of info already given by HD et.al.: my browser hadn't updated the thread... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif

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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

eyeinthesky... Minor point but it is usually a Heathrow Director who allocates EATs and determines the landing order. The Traffic Manager takes over from 1300-1600 and from 2100 (ie when it's quiet) or when we cannot man the position through through staff shortage, etc.

[rubberjungle]

Thanks for all the info regarding my question. Sorry to hear about management screwing up morale--seems to happen quite a lot in this industry especially at birdseed with our top heavy management burdon. Never mind it's gloves off for our pay round this summer-- you may find one or two nice quite days this autumn methinks.