A few facts about Cathay Freighters

[GDOP]

This flies out to all those who are interested in taking up a job with CX freighters. First I would like to emphasize that Cathay Pacific is an english managed company! This is important to know if your mother tongue is not english or if you have not grown up in a commonwealth state or in a former british colony. There is a lot of adaptation required. People from commonwealth states may have fewer difficulties to adapt to the system, but the following applies irrespective of that.

1. The working atmosphere for First Officers is authoritarian, humiliating and intimidating. They are completely left out of any decision making process, e.g. when it comes to technical problems.
2. Checking, Reporting and Grading Philosophy. Whoever writes the first report, wins. Grading is widely used to apply pressure instead of motivating people.
3. Fear culture. The message is: behave like we want you to or you will loose your job. One wrong word to the wrong person or a marginal check flight and there’s a ‘final warning’. Everybody keeps their mouths shut. There is no CRM.
4. Total control and analysis on all flights (QAR).
5. There is no training in Cathay Freighters. The training system is totally abused as a testing system. This creates high stress levels and increases the overall number of mistakes an individual makes.
6. Rostering surprises. You arrive in Hong Kong in the early morning, trying to keep your home sleeping pattern when you learn that you are rostered for a sim ride the next early morning, against your body clock. It is designated as a ‘crew up’ but your performance is evaluated as in a check ride.
7. For line checks they like to send you to places you normally don’t fly to.
8. You have to be a very experienced professional to get the job. Once you’re in you are treated as a schoolboy and with disrespect. This is a Captain oriented airline.

These few points represent the essence of my own experience on the classic freighter fleet (B 747-200). From the bottom of my heart I advise: don’t join Cathay Freighters! The money may be good, the basings are an advantage but you will not be happy.

[FFP]

For line checks they take you to places you don't normally go to

Sounds like the ideal way to check someone.

[Holding Short]

That was a bit of a suprise if thats true. Always though that CX Freigh side would be a top notch place to work for. Anyone else in the know care to comment:uhoh:

HS

[AIRWAY]

Give it a go first, without taking someone's point of view... One persons view may not represent the whole truth.

[AIRWAY]

I respect everyone's opinion, but you cant say "Dont come and fly here, because i think you will not like it" thats the impression i got from the original post.

You should give it a go, if you like it you can stay, if you don't , then you can leave.

[azdriver]

I think the guy posted a very delicate issue regarding flight safety habits at CX. Everything that has to do with flight crew checks and CRM it is very important to improve the safety records of an airline. I don't know if what he said is true or not, but I would like to know someone else opinion, any malpractice as the above mentioned must be fighted 'til it stop.

Any other comments are appr. THX

azdriver

[Baywatcher]

Cathay Pacific Cargo is the best job I have ever had. The Company pay a good package and unlike other airlines is financially secure.

There is a high level of "bull" and there is no such word as training, but constant checking of which there are no standards between checkers, but at the end of the day, it must be one of the best jobs around and where one can still make good money.

They will not suffer fools or incompetence and however much money has been spent on you, perform well or you're out!

If you are lucky enough to get through the interview bull, go for it!

It seems to me in this life of flying, if you have a fun job you get paid little!

[Holding Short]

Obviously where there is smoke there is fire. I do believe there is some truth to this first thread:ugh: And the question is why do some people-you know who you are- behave like that. That is :mad: by all means. I though this sort of behaviour is one of the things we do not want to have in our workplace- :yuk:

[CruisingSpeed]

Thought I wasn’t going to comment on my bad time there, but the first post is too accurate on most points to ignore, all I can say is that it matches personal experience with the company.

The unbelievable arrogance, the undisguised threats, the whole tone and atmosphere in my one year interview was something I have never experienced before in my life, and hopefully never will again, I was totally put off and quite angry afterwards. I suppose my response was not as required and in retrospect it is little wonder I was told to leave after 1,5 years. It did come as a shock however, because I passed my checks and got on extremely well with the guys on the line.

The flipside of the coin is that I had some family problems and a considerable amount of stress and distraction which failed me a sim a few months prior to my dismissal. Later discovered that every sim is a check there, and that it doesn’t matter a hoot if you nailed the regulatory ones. I agree that there is little or no training and no-one to develop or help you out if you run into problems, be that personal or professional.

What Baywatcher said may be right to a certain degree and who wouldn’t be inclined to agree as long as on the sunny side of things, however, what use is a financially secure airline where you are paid half a decent salary when they mistreat and intimidate their staff. What happens when things DO go pearshaped, when, for whatever reason, the focus is laid on you and you get “checked out”. I have seen more than a few sad cases in my time there but found little or no account of this on this forum, understandably most would keep quiet about this in order to move on unnoticed and avoid suspicion that you are either “a fool or incompetent”, very interesting.

Hong Kong has no labour protection, you are out of the door anytime with no reason required, I guess this legal background is the underlying foundation of company policy and attitude.

[Northern_Driver]

Any ideas what is causing this?

First I would like to emphasize that Cathay Pacific is an english managed company! This is important to know if your mother tongue is not english or if you have not grown up in a commonwealth state or in a former british colony. There is a lot of adaptation required. People from commonwealth states may have fewer difficulties to adapt to the system, but the following applies irrespective of that.

There seem to be no problems at the mainline.

N_D

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

.........no problems at all on mainline...have a mate on the fr8ter fleet.........reckons it's OK.......sorry to hear about your plight, give it some time, it may get better. good luck.

[CruisingSpeed]

I was mainline… and dont think there is a big difference in company culture within the the respective departments. I was however told that the Airbus fleet is more progressive due to the fact that there are a lot more younger Australian managers running the show.

I would certainly not advise against joining, in the end that is everyones personal decision. It undisputedly is a very fine company in many respects and it deserves all decent and responsible wannabes to go and make their input for a better future, I would take GDOPs post as a warning that for the time being, and in Hong Kong generally, you are a soldier of fortune.

[corporal klinger]

I heard first hand from different guys independent from each other that the claims are true ,it is a culture of fear and disrespect at least on the 200.

Also very important to consider:
the extreme high failure rate ( 6 out of 10 first shot) on upgrading courses on the 200. two failures and you end up as a PFO
( Professional First Officer:( ,)
so that leaves the following question:

If CX has these infamous tough requirements on new joiners,with very experienced guys among them,who is to blame for these failures well above industry level??

I always hear the money is so exeptionally good at CX. Actually this is definetely not true on the freighter fleet,the pay is average at the most ,you would earn more at every european major including freight airlines( wide body).Plus: you may never be able to get a cpt salary...

Strangely there are still guys around who defend this inhuman and silly system,very hard to understand as I see it..

[colts19]

Let me say this. I have been with Cathay for quite sometime now. I believe he is pretty, spot on with the coments ,at what goes on here at Cathay. he also failed to mention that the command failure rates are unheard of here in our industry. There is a very real possibility you may never make command.... better pilots than I have not made it or even have been sacked. For "training problems".
Is it a place you 'should not work here" ? NO! I say that because you will have to make that decision. I am glad even still..that I decided to accept the opportunity. Do I like many things that happen in this ailine?... It definately gives you a feeling of no job security. And it can be very taxing on your patience. No I do not.
On the positive side, The money is Great after your 3rd year going into the PAX fleet. And not too bad before that, during your first three years on the frieghter. Health benifits are pretty good. loss of licence insurance pretty good. depending on base and aircrfaft the rosters can be good.
Job security, you may ask?..Hmmm now that would be a good one. from a standpoint of redundancies..Great. From being in the wrong place at the wrong time..Hmmm not so good..ie training , saying the wrong thing at the wrong time..etc. HOWEVER, we work in the airline bussiness in the 21st century. Show me someone in an airline today who feels secure with his or her job, with pay cuts, pension benifts dwindling or non-existent and record redundancies and recieverships and I will show you a pilot that spoted Santa Clause on Christmas Eve at FL350. You get my drift.
Those worries do make for a secure enviroment either and can be mentally taxing as well. So you have to choose your poison.
You have to ask the question, which course do I choose, I do remeber during the SAR's crisis when most of our pax aircraft were parked..not one single redundancy.. yes we intially took a paycut but it was returned.
If you can be very self motivated, learn to keep your head low and watch the bullets fly overhead..you should be pretty safe here at Cathay..I say should.. I liken this to the military in some ways..and I really feel it has no place here in this day in age but, they try to break you and see how you react. And it is not a one time thing, it will go on for a while. Maybe years.. On the line as in normal line flying it is actually fun. You just have to have your skin a little thicker than most and learn to say, "Oh I See..OIC"
But it is not an airline for everyone. Anyone interested will have to search his or her heart and know themselves and make a choice... I did and so far I do not regret it.

[don't wannabe]

I would agree with everything written by GDOP. I had no intention of posting on this forum until I read the experiences of many people within CX but it is time to speak.

Firstly, for any Cathay legal types out there, these are my views and as a British subject Reserve the right to free speech. This is not China!!

Cathay Pacific operate under a culture of fear. You put up and shut up and if you question you are out, its that simple. The company runs these policies from the top down in order to save money. The company is 25% owned by CITIC, the commercial arm of the Chinese government. In case you are not aware China are not exactly world leaders in human rights. A worker can still be imprisoned for being a member of a trade union. These influences and the poor employment rights in Hong Kong give Cathay the environment they need to operate without a second thought for the rights of the employee.

I have seen people sacked for raising serious safety concerns about aircraft, another bullied to a nervous breakdown. A young woman sexually harrassed then put on garden leave and her pay stopped in an effort to make her resign in order to protect the people harrassing her. Many people raising grievances and not once the company found anything wrong. Yes you will be O.K as long as you can see this abuse of rights and turn a blind eye.

Ask yourselves this - why do Cathay Pacific have so many incidents? bad luck, I don't think so. People are afraid to say or do the right thing because they will be next.

Oh and if anyone is in the U.K and would like the proof of this the man sacked will be at the Watford employment tribunal on 17-21 January 2005 where he will be providing around 600 pages of evidence to prove this, I know because I have seen it, journo's more than welcome.

Oh and he will not be taking a £10,000 payoff with a comprehensive gagging order either (Cathays usual defence).

Those who work for Cathay please ask yourselves, how many people must tell the same story before you believe it?

[411A]

Hmm, have to say that all this smoke ain't good...fire must surely follow.
This reminds me of the 'training' culture at a few US aircarriers about twenty five years ago.
All of a sudden, they had a look at their training budgets and said...good gosh, its gone off the clock.

An adversarial atmosphere does not pay in the long run...including safety-wise.

[Basil]

I'd concur with a great deal of the foregoing comment.

I know a number of excellent, experienced captains who were left by the CX training system doubting their own ability to do the job they'd been executing successfully for many years.

That is not to say that CX is not a great company with excellent facilities at CLK.

[don't wannabe]

Am I missing something here? do people out there really think that a company can be "great" just because it has built a flash new HQ to go with its corporate image? and that all the disgracefull abuses of staff do not matter?

[colts19]

Probably and unfortunately, there will probably be no changes at Cathay until it really hits the bottom line..as in a hull loss and a loss of life..sad but true.

[don't wannabe]

colts19, completely agree - you cannot mortgage safety. It will be very sad when it does happen as I have no doubt it will. But surely if enough people speak instead of "watching the bullets fly" it could turn into a truly good place to work without the fear. I think the only other thing that would make the CX management listen is a loss of revenue when the shoddy treatment of many staff and the safety issues are outed. There are a lot of excellent proffessional people at CX but I feel they will sit back as long as it is not them next !!

[A-3TWENTY]

"First I would like to emphasize that Cathay Pacific is an english managed company! This is important to know if your mother tongue is not english or if you have not grown up in a commonwealth state or in a former british colony. There is a lot of adaptation required. People from commonwealth states may have fewer difficulties to adapt to the system, but the following applies irrespective of that."

I have already heard that the english environment is unhealthy.

I prefer not earn such a good salary than living in constant high levels of stress.

A good environment ( although professional) is one of the benefits I consider essential.

I don`t live to work, I work to live. I `m not a slave of money.

:ok:

[shortly]

I find it fascinating that those who fail or those who are about to fail, invariably blame 'the system'. There are rostering issues at all airlines, all airlines have their fair share of martinets, all airlines have their unique but strange procedures. Having observed the freight operation for some time now, and been occasionally involved in it, I cannot believe the vitriol being espoused here. No training system, all simulator rides check rides, all line checks to unfamiliar ports - what a lot of cobblers. If you guys keep telling porky pies, or exaggerating the truth, your noses will get longer and your tongue will turn black. Or so my mother told me.

[Saturn]

I think I may have to agree with Shortly here. I have been here a year and have not had any of the experiences mentioned and I am a bloody American. I thought the "Training" was excellent, I have never felt threatned and don't feel my job is on the line. I go to work, I work as hard as I can and do well. Cathay has HIGH, VERY HIGH standards. I think most are not used to that. I wanted that and got it. It is all relative. Where I came from had O and I do mean O standards. It was pathetic and I hated going to work. I came to Cathay, felt very lucky that they even hired me, and put in 110%. I have been justly rewarded. Don't believe everything you read or here about CX. They have had some issues but I tell you, there are a lot worse places to work in the world than CX. There is no such place as a perfect airline, never has been, never will be. Apply, do well in the interview, pass the sim, get hired, pass the training and enjoy. To the victor go the spoils.:cool:

[corporal klinger]

what about the infamous high failure rates during upgrades,
can anybody actually flying for cx comment on this?

and if these failure rates would prove to be higher than the industry standard( I personally believe they are MUCH higher),
wouldn't this point in a certain direction??

[shortly]

They are higher than the industry 'standard'. The way this points is that the standard required at CX is higher than the general industry standard. Is this good or bad or even necessary? I think its good and very necessary. Most guys pass second time around and make far better captains with the experience.

[CruisingSpeed]

“Exaggerating the truth”… :confused:

… I’d say curtains up for Schrodingers Cat and another one of those famous slashes at management apologists… where are you mate, please spread hope to this sad world… :E

[corporal klinger]

Dear Shortly,

according to my information the failure rate is not the same on each fleet, with much higher rates on the freighter fleet( to get back to the topic).
could you comment on that?
I respect your desire for a demanding environment, and I certainly agree that an upgrade should not be granted automatically when it is simply your turn seniority wise.
However, I am in training myself, and It won't be a surprise for you,that it is easily possible to fail EVERYBODY if you want to as a checker.So the question is,isn't there a lot of political stuff involved at cx,I hear complaints from many sides( this thread is another one,in fact).
I personaly think that a failure in the sim/on the line is almost always also a reason to blame training,that the instructor(s) failed in a way,too.

just food for thoughts,
all the best

ps: and I didn't fail the interview,I actually passed:cool:

[CruisingSpeed]

Very good posting Klinger, attitudes like yours are sorely missed at CX, you must be a real asset to your company.

I noted that shortly deliberately misquoted and exaggerated GDOP using words like "all" or "no". Attempts like these to silence critical voices by cynically pointing out that "failures invariably blame the system" do nothing but display the other extreme of this discussion. It is blatantly obvious from shortlys previous posts that he NEVER finds fault with this particular "system", it would be interesting to know why he is constantly trying to justify the status quo.

Shortly, noone here disputes that high standards are desirable in any public transport operation. This discussion is about the atmosphere and staff policy regarding this particular company. If you are saying that one necessitates the other, then please accept that there are types out there that bring their best in an environment of trust, support and co-operation.

[shortly]

Cpl K. lets not confuse the two things here, training and checking. There was a time when a few CX mainline trainers made it clear that they would orchestrate the failure of the newly joined ASL pilots, especially the direct entry commanders. Those days are, thankfully, long gone. Why the higher failure rate on commands on the freighter? Well, on the Classic it would be probable or possible that many of the basic flying skills required to operate an analog aircraft diminish with time spent on the more modern glass digital machines, no trimming, follow the magenta line, all on automatics etc. For the -400 I have no idea. Look I am not saying the system is purrfect - none is - but it is a system and it is constantly being modified to meet changing circumstances. Anyone who has an idea on ways to improve 'the system' can put in a suggestion. Anonymous if you like.
Cruising Speed. You got up on the wrong side of the bed mate. Re-read my post/posts. I am not an apologist for all things company. That said I find CX a great place to work and will defend its 'ethos' whenever I feel it necessary

[Baywatcher]

Come on chaps! Cathay is a harsh environment and they don't suffer fools. But if you make it, then the rewards are great. A financially secure Company that makes piles of profits. Salary is well above the average and perks are excellent. The equipment is second to none and maintenance is excellent. If you have what it takes, come and join, the expansion continues!

[CruisingSpeed]

Shortly, don’t talk about ethos, I have seen 50 colleagues destroyed while I was undergoing training, and was too busy sorting out my own life and career. I have also witnessed single cases of fellow colleagues dismissed for petty reasons, but true to your arguments I assumed that it was entirely their fault. Then one day it was my turn, and in a way I got what I deserved, because I denied truth and morality for too long.

If you choose to keep your mouth shut, then fine, if you find the company culture acceptable, then again that’s fine, because it’s horses for courses, but your disparaging comments about those that suffered under this system are very offensive and I doubt that even you would find your contributions to this thread tenable when confronted with the family of our young colleague who tragically died during the recent industrial conflict.

You might even find that truth is NOT a question of personal taste.

[shortly]

Cruising Speed. No one is ever dismissed 'for petty reasons'. why on earth would a company that has never displayed any weaknesses on the money front throw away money? This thread is about CX freighters and not about the 49ers et al. Why for goodness sake can't you stick to the thread of the post and keep your prejudices in your back pocket where they belong. Tragedy is tragedy and all feel for a persons family when that person takes the ultimate step. Your experiences and knowledge of incidents concerning dismissal and mine are completely at variance. For those wishing to join CX please do it's a great company and well worth the trouble involved in the selection process.

[CruisingSpeed]

Hmmmh, why would a company "throw away money". It appears that the company believes that by making examples of a few, the others will follow better track, this is what is widely known as "bullying tactics". Single losses will be quite acceptable when they confirm the pecking order, or when money can be raked back in tenfold on a wider scale of intimidation, i.e. a change to COS.

As for me digressing from the freighter side of things, point taken. I am not even qualified to post then, as I was mainline myself, but I believe that the issues raised by GDOP apply to the company as a whole. And the 49er story is just one of many chapters making up the whole book, look at the wider picture.

When reading your last sentence I hope you are not implying that I am trying to run an anti-recruitment campaign here. Edited: I guess the "facts" in the thread title and GDOPs conclusive advice to prospective wannabes may be your underlying cause...
I quite agree that there are many good aspects about my former company and would never say that people should not give it a go in HK, HOWEVER: I do feel compelled to set the record straight when you are spouting around that everyone on this forum that raises or confirms valid concerns must have "black tongues or long noses".

Perhaps a more reasonable approach would progress this discussion, would that be in your interest?

[Doug the Head]

A lot of things posted by GDOP seem quite simular to the UK company I work for, including roster instability, big broher watching over you and the constant patting on ones own shoulder about "higher than avererage standards."

A-3TWENTY summed it up nicely in his/her post.

Some people blame the Chinese, but isn't the British culture also part of the problem?

[shortly]

Cruising Speed. I am very sorry you were one of the 'selected crowd'. I apologise if the tone of any of my posts has offended you, english being a second language for me. We could spoil this post by me going on about unreasonable AOA actions, but we just disagree. The people who will get the black tongues and long noses are only those telling porky pies. Mostly though they just embellish the truth to suit their ends. Good luck to you I hope every thing works out well. Actually Doug the Head is closer to the mark. Both Chinese and older style UK management tend to keep things secret from each other, you know knowledge is power etc. In my experience CX has been very guilty of that, and it is soooo stupid.

[CruisingSpeed]

English is my second language too... :E

Apologies taken, and I hope in return that things will improve in HK over time. I agree that there is no such thing as 100% objectiveness, but mutual gagging orders are not the way forward, most can read between the lines and come to their own conclusion.

Looking at other threads and realising that the grass may not be greener on the other side and that numerous other airlines have similar and sometimes even worse problems I have always wondered how much of all this is a company problem, perhaps there is something about the profession that causes this harsh environment (I personally dont think the "high standard" excuse is justified). This was my first job in flight ops and since I come from a middle european country with well defined ideas and laws about labour relations and generally accepted principles of performance/career development I somewhat lack comparison. I am not so sure whether the british culture plays a part, at CX I would think it may at times be an unfortunate mix of ruthless ex RAF types with an overlying management philosophy that plays into their hands, or the other way around, but this is pure speculation.

Shortly, what are you alluding to when you say that management tends to keep things secret from each other?


-: For me Holding Shorts posting wins hands down :rolleyes:

--: My own theory is that pilots: tend to be highly organised, critical and by virtue of their salary structure usually spearhead industrial disputes, therefore special attention is allocated to ensure subordination.

[Pontious]

Any info. on F/O salaries and allowances at UK and Euro bases would be appreciated. After much searching and fruitless perusals of other threads, I fear I have to issue a 'begging letter' for the desired information. Many thanks in advance for the info. or guidance in the right direction to satisfy my curiosity.

Yours sincerely

' Confused ' of Penge.

[Stereolab]

I've been "lurking" on this post...interesting. I can't speak for CX, but I can tell you that in the States, fear and intimidation can and does exist in the Regionals. Especially, old school CRJ training at ACA. I know several new hires that were canned, went to other regionals and now they are doing fine. CA upgrade pink slips were so common that United practically disregarded them when they interviewed candidates (this was before 9/11).

Our union got together with management and proved that draconian training methods were costing the company millions of dollars. The pattern seemed to be a few individuals were running the training program as if we were flying space shuttles. They were ousted and now we have a much better program without compromising quality. I was fortunate...I was hired after the changes took place.

Draconian training methods only costs the company money. The myth that it makes "better pilots" is not only absurd, it will eventually cause financial hardships for your company and may cost evenyone their jobs. Leave the "machismo" at home.

[shortly]

'Draconian training methods'. Mmm, I have seen a lot of product from the touchy feely US style of training academy and we seem here to be talking about black and white. There is no place at CX for 'draconian' anything, and in my experience it is not there. We have, also maybe foolishly, followed the US lead with their aircrew qualification programme. This works well in theory but in real life does leave a bit to be desired, IMHO. It's all well and good to talk about a 'training programme' based on the results of monitoring systems throughout the company, but it never seems to translate into improved performance either in the sim or the aircraft. Some flying demands are much harder than others, loss of all hydraulics, two or even three engines inoperative, loss of essential power, maximum crosswind in minimum visibility, cockpit fire/smoke requiring high speed return with smoke masks and O2 masks on etc etc. Whilst one would hope that the average pilot will never see any of these things in real life, but nonetheless wouldn't it be nice if we practiced these things in a non threat environment - like we used to at CX before jumping on the 'enlightened' US training bandwagon.
Stereolab, fear and intimidation are alive and well in most airlines around the world even in your country.

[JaJaBinx]

Pontius, I posted a msg some time ago with salary/rosters etc.
Search under jajabinx in the search thingy, I've only done two posts so it shouldn't be difficult to find. Any questions just ask.
Regards Jajabinx

[Stereolab]

Shortly,

I take it you don't support the popular AQP method of training, which is popular in the United States. We are just the opposite over here, AQP is less imtimidating than the old method.

I guess CX has it reversed. I would take AQP over traditional. If you guys perfrom AQP the same way we do, you'll notice there's less jeapordy events.

Isn't there plenty of gouge for training at CX?

Just wondering...

[shortly]

I would be a supporter if it was applied in practice as it is discussed in theory, but it never is neither here nor over there. I have no problem with 'no jeopardy' training but there must be a place for standards and standards checking. In a previous life crews from Asia that we failed in a tactical training course went straight from us to the US, obtained their qualification then promptly killed themselves and a couple of innocent other crew members. nope give me standards and their maintenance anytime.

[KADS]

Just read the above thread. Albeit somewhat outdated, it was an interesting one for someone just about to apply. My question is, should anyone with knowledge have time to answer, is there a career to be made in the cargo division. Being european, the european bases suits me fine but it seems like most people transfers to mainline.
Is CX cargo a good place to set up a career or is mainline the place to be if you go for CX?
Appreciate your help...
Thanks,
Kads

[filejw]

Shortly,
In ref to your mention of those abnormals.With AQP we see of that type stuff more than we ever did with the old six months checks.Six month check are so repetitive and ever body knows the scenarios the FAA is looking for.The standard of performance with AQP seems to me to be better than ever with the check people more willing to hold back or retrain people that don't perform well on the maneuvers validation.Then on the Loft (the check ride) portion the checker sees more of the real knowledge the pilot has of the equipment as they don't have much of a time restriction and you have to make real time line operation decisions.

[KADS]

Any info regarding above questions are much appreciated...

[KADS]

Still no one??? :confused:

[Cyr6C]

shortly, hoping you're still with us, can you be more concrete ? What prooves your saying about pilots having killed themselves and a couple of innocent other crew members ? What are the facts ? Who can attest ?

[sisyphos]

check out the fragrant harbour forum, cathay "culture"

[Cyr6C]

sisyphos, which one(s) from the fragrant harbour forum, cathay "culture" answer my questions ? What's the culture at Cathay like? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236365) this one doesn't.