Bonus, what bonus???

[Numpo-Nigit]

NATS people may wish to visit the NATS intranet and read a document entitled COMPANY PERFORMANCE BONUS ARRANGEMENTS from David Hemingway, Director of Personnel and Central Services, which is dated today.

In essence it states that, as the forecast growth in air traffic has taken an unexpected and significant downturn, our projected bonus targets have not been met.

The cost per flight achieved is £244 against a target of £233 so we only get a bonus of 0.1875% of basic salary. They are very kindly not proposing to claw-back the interim payment of 0.5% that has already been paid.

The flights per employee target of 377 or more has also not been achieved - we managed 362. So we get 0.15% of basic.

However, OCT started on time so we get that 0.5% in full.

The total bonus will be 1.15% of basic. We have already had 0.5%, so the balance will be paid with the June or July salaries.

Naturally the unions, recognising that they have been "sold a pup", expressed their "extreme disappointment" and declined to enter into negotiations regarding bonus arrangements for 2001-2002.

For all the good it will do, I TOLD YOU SO !!!!

[North of the Border]

The union people who were involved at the presentation in Prestwick, categorically stated that the bonuses were designed to pay out and that Nats were also very happy to renegotiate should the target figures dip below what had been set. A lot of people voted yes on their word. I bet we don't get the chance to renegotiate and are left high and dry.
If this is true we can have no faith in anything the union say again. Lots of people warned against bonuses. I hope everyone will listen now.

NOTB

[Big Nose1]

You will obviously be paying back salary earned after your early go tonight Numpo !!!

[Numpo-Nigit]

NOTB

The IPMS negotiators who visited LATCC gave the same story about the bonuses being "designed to pay out" and NATS being prepared to "move the goalposts" if there was any risk of missing the targets. Perhaps that is what is going to happen, but I somehow doubt it.

The big question in my mind now is "Why did the IPMS guys tell us that story?". Is it

a) they knowingly lied to us for some unknown reason, or
b) they have been outwitted by the NATS management team.

Either way, perhaps they should review their position.

[250 kts]

NoTB, as you will know the money was on the table last year in the form of bonus payments,in order to get around the govt pay restrictions. i can't think of anyone in the IPMS team who was/is actually in favour of these payments, however it was this or let the money go ( after all who was going to action over 1.5% or so).
The next meeting is on the 11th where hopefully management will have given this whole issue further thought. It was them afterall who stated that the targets were all achievable.
If you don't like what the union negotiates then get involved and make your voice heard.
The only good thing which may come out of this is that in the future we tell NATS where they can stick their bonuses and have a genuine reason why.

[eyeinthesky]

Yet another example of the unions either being sold a story or selling one to us. Either way, we've been stitched again on the back of: "This is only an accounting exercise to keep the Treasury happy. Better agree to it now or it will be lost for ever."
All I can say is keep a very close eye on your DIL accruement during 2001 and don't forget the unofficial advice given by IPMS regarding how many days to sign up for... :rolleyes:

------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[Nuke the Bastards]

No, before I start I am NOT an active union member......

However.......

I DO get sick and tired of everyone getting on the bandwagon and blaming the union....

The REAL reason why we are SHAT on ALL THE EFFING TIME is because of our Management. THEY are the ones that the vehemeence should be turned against.....THEY are the ones who, historically, have ALWAYS had a low opinion of their workforce !!

So....yes, let's USE the Union.......and go for a "Vote of NO Confidence" in NATS management, and let the Airline Group see EXACTLY what a bunch of low lives the existing NATS management really are !!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Serco Stuffer]

NATS Management =====

And, they are the ones that will be unemployed very shortly!

[Loki]

Serco Stuffer

I hope that you are right, but they seem to be able to wriggle out of anything! Still, fingers crossed.

[beaglepup]

Look for the pigs whizzing by...

[BEXIL160]

It's interesting to note that our beloved Colin Chis has publicly said that we don't have a morale problem (Radio 4).

So why then on the Airline Groups presentation to the SMGs does one of their immediate aims (1st 100 days) say RAISE STAFF MORALE ???.

A bit of a reality check, Col, or a slap in the face?

[OrsonCart]

So how do they intend to raise morale?

I may be cynical, but the reason we all work is for MONEY. Morale and cash must be interlinked.

Is it more money or less workload that is demanded?

One thing is for sure, there a'int anyone else who can come and take our jobs. This is SERIOUS bargaining power for the unions!

We are all professionals and sometimes our demands are not financial. Would you seriously advise a youth to become an ATCO?

[unwise]

It's all very well saying 'dont blame the union' get actively involved. BUT folks this is a bloody cop out. Each active member represented on comittee is there because they want to be on it. We as the membership pay our subs and expect to be represented and represented forcefully. Dont forget the whole purpose of IPMs- to protect and to convey the requests/ambitions of the membership. One thing i definately dont want to hear anymore is that if the membership reject the proposal then the branch will hand in its resignation. Who many time have we heard that?
Now then moving on to the bonus crap. Enough is enough, we have given this bonus crap ba go and guess what folks IT DOESN'T WORK. So in future lets not try and be clever and lets try to get what we want by means of a decent pay rise. i.e if offer + potential bonuses equals 4.5%. Then sod the bonus we will take 4.3% thank you, that way there are no confusions and most importantly of all we dont get shafted.
Sorry union reps but i think we ALL need to grow up a bit and remember what we're in it for. A bonus is what a BA 747 captain gets, he knows he's received a bonus cos its weighing his pocket down and if we cant achieve this then lets not play this management game. :mad:


[This message has been edited by unwise (edited 04 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by unwise (edited 04 May 2001).]

[matspart3]

The 'cost per flight' achieved at my Non-NATS(never, ever likely to be NATS)unit is about £17 and the 'Flights per employee' is 2827. My bonus? I'm getting bugger all!
So you've been stitched by your employer/management/union...welcome to the real world!

[BEXIL160]

..."Would I seriously advise a youth to become an ATCO?"...

Simple enough question, simple answer.... NO.

Rgds
BEX

[Hurry Thru 9]

If the BEC resigns or union representation is non-existent (ie. no reps) who bargains for us? .......
Unless there are people willing to put their hands up to do it, we will have no representation and we will have to get used to accepting 1.1% pay offers etc, as there will be no-one to negotiate higher.

This bonus thing HAS backfired, but what it does is provide proof that they don't work. So refusal to accept them as part of any future pay deal is easy.

hurrythru9

[slurp]

ok so the unions have been caught out ...for how much?...£150 ...surely not worth falling on your sword for? lets just make sure that in future we get a better deal....

[slurp]

just had a thought ....if the flights per person calculation is below the figure required for the bonus is it any wonder..when staff have been taken for OCT thus making it necessary to reduce flow through staff shortages.This is a management contrived stitch up..!!!I suggest we just keep the figures low for the rest of the year...get the airlines used to what will be happening next year...mmm

[250 kts]

It's a bit more than that. My info is that it's worth 2.35%. More than just pocket money.

[eyeinthesky]

We're getting away from the nub of the issue, which is that those of us who raised concerns at the time about the current levels of delay, cost per flight etc compared with the bonus levels when we were voting for the pay deal were told by IPMS: "Don't worry, it is all an accounting exercise and they will be paid regardless." Now somebody somewhere is pulling a fast one.

The union negotiators are there to obtain a good deal for their members, and they seem to be amateurs in the face of professionals, as has been shown by this week's announcement. It is no good saying:'Well get off your arse and do it yourself'. These guys volunteered for the Union work. It was them who told us this was the best possible deal available and we should take it while it was offered. That was their professional opinion having been party to ALL the discussions, not just a one-page summary. Now they are expressing 'extreme disappointment' at the present situation and saying we will concentrate on the next set of negotiations. How many times have we heard that before? This year was one of the strongest bargaining positions we have ever had, and look what they achieved. Time to get a union which is experienced in negotiating within the aviation industry. Might cost a bit more per month, but IPMS have just lost us a year's subscription by failing to cement the payment of bonuses anyway. :mad:



------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[Foot in Mouth]

I believe there is a meeting with management on the 11th.Any of you BEC types like to give an indication if anything can be salvaged.
This has been a complete f*ck*p by the Union (before anybody says anything I have been a IPCS/IPMS Rep for over 50% of my ATC career!).Do management think that this is going to help move the traffic over the summer?I don't think so.Pilots better get some practice in holding and flying at crap levels. Why should I bust a gut like I have been doing for the last twenty years.
I think we may have reached a watershed.
NURSE! Bring out the powder!

FiM

[Nuke the Bastards]

slurp is quite right.......

Think about it........

The flights are down because of Management INEPTITUDE in failing to provide enough staff to run the NATS OPERATIONAL side, which brings around the swingeing flow restrictions that are currently being employed........

Hardly surprising that targets aren't being met, but it's hardly OUR fault !!!!!!

Now.....I wonder what bonuses NATS Management have managed to contrived to give themselves ??????????

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[beaglepup]

Is it true that any unspent "buget" monies goes to "The Management"?

[eyeinthesky]

NtB: That's just the point. When we went down the road of performance bonuses I said there was little point since we have no control over the meeting or not of targets, and pointed out the likelihood of delays increasing due to OCT etc. The union reps told me not to worry as it would all be OK and it was just a way of getting the money past the treasury. BOLLOCKS!

Suggestion: Seeing as we aren't getting a bonus, I see no reason to bust a gut getting traffic moving and accepting the high percentage of non-RVSM traffic that we do. Say NO when you're asked to raise TSFs after the RVSM honeymoon period. make sure you raise a 1261 every time an aircraft flight plan does not agree with its actual RVSM status. Only then will we get the message across.

[terrain safe]

Perhaps we need a union for the workers not just a 'management' union. How many times have we been told 'this is the best we can get'. Perhaps we need a more militant union.

[WonkyVectors]

Right, now I'm PISSED.

I, like everyone else, was told that these "bonus payments" were GUARANTEED as they were merely a way round treasury restrictions, and that we would DEFINITELY be getting the money. Despite the fact that many, many of us were sceptical of the whole thing we were all assured by the Union that everything will be fine.

I would now ask a union rep/bec member to HONESTLY say WHO has sold us this brazen, shameless LIE.
If it was the union, then i suggest we are all reimbursed our union fees for x length of time, to be agreed by the staff.
If it was Nats management then i expect the union to take immediate action on our behalf to ensure these funds are paid to all of us.

My point is this, the statement we were given, ie "you will get the money no matter what etc" came from somewhere, we do not appear to be getting the money, so someone, somewhere has LIED to the staff of Nats.

I make one further point to the union and Nats management;
I, and probably the rest of the staff, will NEVER, EVER agree to a pay deal that has a bonus element. If Nats simply wishes to pay us a bonus to say thanks for the hard work done by us all, that is fine and i will accept it with gratude, but it will ON NO ACCOUNT be part of any pay deal.

Anyone disagree?

[form49]

WonkyVectors, I think you've hit the nail right on the head here. The pay deal was a long time coming and after many discussions we were sold a lie and told (sorry advised) to accept it as it was as far as negotiations could go.
OK negotiations went as far as they could, but once that avenue has been exhausted then as a union they should be looking at other ways to get the best deal possible.
I like everybody else was assured by my union rep that it was merely an number crunching exercie to circumvent the treasury, obviously not so!!
Maybe it's time to take issue with the management and show our new owners that we WILL NOT take any more of this CRAP!!!

------------------
Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[160to4DME]

Some great points....looks like some people have finally got round to smelling the coffee.
It leads me to the question I have often put to the forum...."When the hell are we, as a professional body, going to have the guts to show mangament that we have had enough of being denied what we and they both know we deserve."
Management must be laughing all the way to the bank with their bumped up bonuses.
It's one of the few times I wish we were more European... "I spit on your planes" http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm generally against industrial action by ATCOs but accept the views of those who think the other way. However, when I heard that certain of our southern european "cousins" earn £75,000pa and they retain ALL of that as their pension until age 70.... and they were guys who constantly disrupted our summers all those years ago with their almost daily strikes.... I'm almost tempted to change my views...

[unwise]

STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE!!!
The more I think about this and the other ATC issues in our lives, the more convincing the arguement for a strike becomes.

Im sure management are laughing at our weakness (our union) and will continue to take liberties in the long term. The government has not withdrawn our right to strike it has merely made the process more legal.

Look folks, I know we don't get paid when we're out and the union have no money to pay us. So we miss a couple of payments on our mortgage, our car loans etc. It's all in the open, everyone knows ATCOs are on strike and no ones gonna get things repossessed, the judge in the County Court will not allow it trust me.

I am very interested in our unions comments all those years ago about keeping our gun powder dry. What a load of BULLOCKS. It is the membership that needs to take control now and force some of the issues that we feel strong about. Im not strike hungry, I do however have self respect and know when im being abused.

The question is..With all the young blood in the system and all those commitments what will it take to get a UK atco to strike now days? They talk about pensions and how this is the one issue. I stand here to be judged, the day they announce a stitch up on our pensions WE STILL WONT STRIKE. Its all hot air and we have no gun powder, its not even wet its been sold. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[nemo]

I don't blame the Union here as they were taken in like the rest of us and the figures have been massaged by contrived events.

My one hope is that this debacle has toughened our Union Negotiators into Hardball players.
They've had the strike ballot and now they should play that card for all it's worth.

If we refuse to show some industrial muscle now we deserve all we get.

[160to4DME]

<< If we refuse to show some industrial muscle now we deserve all we get >>

I'll put this month's salary on us rolling over like a lap dog...as usual.

I'm fed up with people at my unit saying crap such as "we have to be seen by the public as professionals" and "the media would slaughter us".

Well F**k the media and the public.

So long as management regard us as unwilling when it comes to direct action, they will continue to take liberties and hammer us down ad infinitum, whilst they continue to bank their bonuses.

As Heathrow Director correctly states, we are near the bottom of the stack ('scuse the pun) when it comes to salary and benefits.

I have a mate who works at a relatively quiet unit in southern Spain. He works no more than 34 hours a week, has never had to do more than 2 hours without a break, has full rest facilities, including 2 proper bed rooms for night rest periods, gets 35% off if he buys a new Seat car, earns approx. £600 per month net more than me despite the fact I have been in the job for 5 years more than him, and he can afford a 5 bedroomed villa with pool ( he claims it makes marriage and fatherhood a more manageable experience :)

I think more of you should go on fam. flights and visit some of the ATCUs. Ask the guys (and ladies) some questions about pay and conditions, and you'll soon realise how bad off we really are.

Stop worrying about the possible headlines in the Sun or Mirror how industrial action by us ruined the holidays of Peter the Postman and Michael the Milkman.

Compare yourselves with your European colleagues and wake up to the fact that whether you are in favour of or against industrial disruption, it's time we stopped firing blanks and made management sit up and realise we're no longer quite so impotent.

<<Going to work now to take it out on someone :) >>

[This message has been edited by 160to4DME (edited 06 May 2001).]

[Nuke the Bastards]

160to4DME.........

WELL BLOODY SAID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HounslowHarry]

There is a lot of good points being made here.

I have to say I am a little fed up with the union bashing on this anonimous forum as it appears that none of you are making this feedback to your union reps or BEC representatives.

People who complain but do nothing are the biggest problem!

The unions were clear at the time of the bonuses that they were a mechanism for getting round government restrictions and they were never in favour of such bonuses , NATS were told in no uncertain circumstances that there would be an expectation of payment no matter what. How this problem is now tackled depends on the reaction of the memberships.

If you believe that your union are useless and that they are in NATS management's pocket, then you are sadly living in cloud cuckoo land.

The fact is union strength and policy comes from it's membership, so time to stand up and be counted!

If YOU don't like it do something about it. There is plenty of ATCOs on the ATCOs BEC who would like a rest and a holiday!!!

[WonkyVectors]

Having just got the old crystal ball repaired I am now in a position to inform you all of what will happen next;

The union will meet with Nats management, the upshot of which will be a few sorry's, lots of we would if we could, a ****load of intransigence, and no money for us. We will all scream strike, but again the union will spend ages "looking" for the legalities etc. eventually it will all seem too complicated and management will be laughing all the way to the bank and our new owners will look forward to having such a weak workforce to kick up the ass.

So does anyone think any different? I do hope however when the union meets Nats it will slam its collective foot down and say enough is enough, then maybe our confidence in this union may be restored.The union Must take note of the views of its members ie WE WILL NOT TAKE THIS CRAP ANY LONGER!

And before any moron bleats on about why i'm not a rep or on the bec I can honestly say that if i were I'd probably do more harm than good!! Anyway I pay my money and I expect the union to represent my views, after all as the union says, it is OUR union.

I await the incomming with glee!!

[twrboy]

As we are entering Certified Agreement negotiations here in OZ, your experiences and comments are invaluable. Our employer is offering minimal pay rises, loss of conditions, fragmentation of the labour force and unspecified bonus payments.

We are fortunate in having a good, combined unions approach and should be able to tough it out.

Hang in there friends.

[This message has been edited by twrboy (edited 07 May 2001).]

[1261]

"The unions were clear at the time of the bonuses that they were a mechanism for getting round government restrictions and they were never in favour of such bonuses"

Surely we are now free of this sort of c**p, as we no longer work for HM Government........

[160to4DME]

Well, whilst I don't think IPMS are the hottest of outfits, I have every respect for the sterling work our reps do...that was until yesterday.

As they keep on saying "Tell us what you want; it's YOUR union", that's exactly what I did yesterday. I also referred him to this thread.

His reaction ??

"You mean you want to take action over about one hundred quid?? Don't be so bloody naiive. Don't you think there are more important things we should be fighting for ?And the ones who go on PPRUNE are just a minority of whingers! I'm fed up with them !!!! They're the ones who ask when we'll be getting free flights from the airline group!!!" DOH

So, who says it's our Union ?? From here, it doesn't bloody look like it is anymore http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif

Wonky, your post hit the nail directly on the head, and I fear your prophecy will no doubt become reality http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[AyrTC]

HH
I can assure you that Union Reps are not only getting "bashed " on this forum.The point is (as has been made before) at Prestwick we were categorically told that we would have no problem reaching the targets, do not worry.Somebody must take the responsibility for this.God knows the one good thing ATC is good at is to be able to apportion blame.
Reps have a hard job I know I use to be one,however we pay good money for representation and sometimes the members will need payback for the Reps free curries and Bredbury Hall :).
Also remember the IPMS full time staff it's their job to look after us.
Let's hope everybody has learned from this shambles!!!

[slurp]

i had a chat with our union guy today and the unions have put in for an immediate 4% pay rise to cover the bonus...a meeting will take place this week.As NERC have taken on 100 short term staff it would have been extremely hard to meet the cost per flight per person ratio..management are hiding behind this.

[Serco Stuffer]

I have been told that the cost per flight bonus went on paying the bung concerning rest days or whatever. If you received said bung its your fault then?

[slurp]

the bung certainly added to staff costs ...as well as employing temporary staff

[2 six 4]

What a lovely thread. The union told me so.. the union promised me. I knew it wouldn't work... the union should slap its foot down hard and all the rest of the c**p.

If YOU couldn't be bothered to stop privatisation with the biggest MP revolt in the this Parliament, the support of the House of Lords, a sympathetic public and the interest of the media who gives a damn about not paying a bonus.

[ShooTheGap]

The private ATC providers have their international body called CANSO based in geneva. We have IFATCA... David and Goliath... Start thinking big picture folks...Talk to some canadian controllers who just merged with the biggest Canadian Union to try and balance the scale of power...
And yes, Union bashing is an international recognised sport...Soon to be an olympic event...

My 2 cents worth. Cheers to the Brits...

[2 six 4]

I suppose it is only time before some bright spark suggests we join BALPA ... but look at the c**p they get accused of in the pilots forum.

[160to4DME]

Rather than vent our anger on the union, why are we always incapable of directing our anger at those who deserve it?

I'm not the biggest fan of IPMS, but for once let's make it plain and very clear how we feel, and tell them WE WON'T TAKE ANY COMPROMISES.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....managment are laughing at our ineptitude at putting forward a united front, and until we do something which makes them sit up and think, then we'll never be taken seriously.

Low morale ?? Do you think management care ??

Under staffing ?? Do you think management care ??

Unable to get summer leave ?? Do you think management care ??

Missed traffic targets?? Do THEY lose out as a result ??

For God's sake, WAKE UP guys !!

Make your voice heard......tell your reps, stick to your principles and tell them you're not prepared to settle for any less.

[WonkyVectors]

160,
I agree with you, in that we all need to hound our reps and other union officials to get our message across. However you highlighted a potential problem in one of your earlier posts re the reaction you recieved when you spoke to your rep.
I would be interested to know what, if any, mechanism there is in place for reps to forward our feelings "along the chain" and whether this is on a formal or informal basis?

Union bashing may not be the correct answer here, but if venting our annoyance to union reps serves to get our point across and ensures we are not sold down the river again then so be it.

[form49]

Slurp, I got the same thing from my union rep the other day.
So they're looking for an immediate 4% salary increase, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE BACON, all that's gonna happen is "We're restricted due to treasury constraints, we can get round this with improved bonus offers for next year"
The negotiators say "Ohhhh noooooo, no more bonuses, we want 4%"
It's b0110k5, the union should be getting the reps to canvas the view of the membership with a view to taking this matter all the way, we can't sit back and take this nonsense anymore. As of the 1st June, we will be under new ownership, what message will we be sending to the AG if we do nothing now, we sat back with PPP, the French and Spanish have no problems with pay. The Spanish don't have an ATCO shortage because they are well payed and don't take any cr@p!

The time has come to stand up and be counted, forget the media and public opinion, Joe public didn't give a toss about PPP, he certainly won't care about our pay, lets start thinking about No1

------------------
Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[slurp]

form49...i agree its time to get moving,but......every dispute must have a reason....if the management refuse to give us the 4% we have a legitimate case to call for action...(whether you'll get it is debatable)...but you must keep within industrial law.

[Bono Vox]

you do have a direct line to the bec through [email protected]. i don't think people should not use this bb as it is good to get other opinions but if you do, back it up with a (non-anonymous) mail to said address. too many people hide behind pseudonyms but won't say what they feel where it counts- causes no end of problems. so, get writing!

[Warped Factor]

From http://www.atcos.co.uk/

Bonus talks fail and......

"The ATCOs' Branch of IPMS, through its Headquarters Officer, Iain Findlay, is approaching the General Secretary, Paul Noon, to seek NEC approval for an industrial action ballot."

Looks like we're going to get to use some of our powder.

WF.

[160to4DME]

Great news Warped.

Let's hope IPMS get their arse into top gear so that it embarrasses the hell out of Labour in the run up to the election.

[eyeinthesky]

Slight problem is that the pay deal which we all voted for (on the advice of IPMS!!) is quite clear in the performance targets which must be met for the bonuses to be paid. We wouldn't have a leg to stand on with regard to industrial action on this front. The levels weren't reached, so the bonus isn't paid. Simple. The point remains that the union again got suckered into a 'gentleman's agreement' by management and now they are trying to fight a rearguard action. No amount of members' support will change their chances on that, or on reversing the two-year pay deal (see separate post on this subject).

We simply have to ensure that we don't get stitched up further: No raising of TSFs, file all RVSM anomalies, keep sectors split in accordance with PPP and so on. The flexibility which is needed to allow the centre to run on the present 'rob Peter to pay Paul' system can soon be withdrawn and the place will grind to a halt. Have a look in the watch log for the number of entries regarding flow measures due to staff numbers. We are our own worst enemies in this respect.

Meantime: consider what you're getting for your monthly subscription to IPMS: a magazine nobody reads and loads of promises about how things will be better 'next time'.



------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[OneMile,Flares,Flares]

Does anyone remember :-

'Bust a gut is dead'?

[OrsonCart]

Like it or not, IPMS is the single bargaing tool for us ATCO's. Life very shortly will become very bumpy. TAG will have thier own view of the operation of ATC. Unless we all standby our trade union, a few quid in 'lost' bonus will seem a drop in an ever expanding ocean!

Blame your reps if it makes you happy, or back them to the hilt to preserve the terms and conditions you currently enjoy.

IPMS will have a battle to face, I fear PCS will have an even worse battle to confront.

Do not complain via this forum, *loddy well get hold of you rep, back thier judgement or go for admission into the BEC yourself!

[Flybywyre]

Good post Orson Cart. Lets hope the vast majority are of the same opinion. Industrial action over the bonus issue would spell disaster and divert much needed energy and conviction that will be required over the next 18 months just to retain the status quo regarding working conditions an manning.

[beaglepup]

I remember donkeys ago, the ATCA's went on strike for better pay, etc. The ATCO's didn't support us
Say no more......

[chiglet]

I must admit. I'm like beaglepup. The ATCAS [as was] went on strike, and we were [NOT] supported by the ATCOs
Caused a few probs as I remember.

[Spotter]

Good to see so many people already rolling over & playing dead on this issue as well.

Still keeping that powder dry chaps? Good Show!

[HounslowHarry]

To eyeinthesky and others of the same ilk.

I'm sorry to say it's ATCOs (if you are one) like you who have ruined it for the rest - happy to shout your mouth off about how management and IPMS have got it wrong.

I don't have a disagreement with that, but for god sake do it publicly - if you don't like what's going on, then do something about it. Something that counts! An anonomous forum just doesn't!

Put your money where your mouth is, or are you all bluster?

Typical of Britain really. The place is going down the plughole.


[This message has been edited by HounslowHarry (edited 16 May 2001).]

[eyeinthesky]

HH: Thank you for your support. Funnily enough, I have been discussing this problem with my Union rep at LATCC. As usual, all I have got is the "It'll be all right the next time" story. I've now heard that several times and it hasn't been. As for getting involved in the BEC, I don't have time as I'm doing several other things with my spare time. As many other people have said, I pay my subscriptions to IPMS and expect them to represent our interests professionally. The "do it yourself" argument doesn't hold water. That's like saying if you don't like the crime rate in your part of the country you should do your own policing. If we all did it ourself then there would be no need for a Union. We are told that a collective approach as offered by a Union is a better, stronger negotiating position. So get on and negotiate and stop posturing behind out of date trade union speak. That's what we pay for.

You seem happy to hide in an anonymous forum yourself. If you find it so unhealthy, why do you contribute, and why doesn't your profile show your real name? There is nothing wrong with a depersonalised exchange of views, especially as you can obtain feedback from areas you might not otherwise contact. In addition, ever heard of free speech?



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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[OrsonCart]

Not much response since my last posting. Folk must be flocking to join the BEC, or lobbying thier rep, but they certainly are not ranting or raving!

If members think a a few lousy quid losy over a bonus is serious, god knows what they will think when TAG actually attack thier terms and conditions!

I am off to buy a truck load of tin helmets, I might make a mint selling them on to ATC staff soon?

Back your union!