Why Not End Heading Instructions with a 1 ?

[TEMP0+TSRAGR]

Why don't we adopt a system where ATC heading instructions always end with a 1 to avoid confusion with FL's ????

Eg,

Viking three alpha bravo turn right heading two nine zero descend flight level two six zero and contact maastricht on one three one decimal eight five five

BECOMES

Viking three alpha bravo turn right heading two nine one descend flight level two six zero and contact maastricht on one three one decimal eight five five

Wouldn't that avoid less confusion over FL's and Hdgs ?

[Spotter]

Would you really want to give a frequency change in the same transmission as a heading & level change????

Getting a correct readback before transferring the aircraft would probably save you a lot more trouble than headings ending in a 1.

[Bright-Ling]

Most at LATCC already use 5 degree hdgs when they could be confued with FL's.

i.e. " Turn right heading 105 degrees climb FL100."

[noblues]

Its surprising how many times ATC give a Hdg, FL and freq change in one transmission.

[LXGB]

Tempo,
You're 'avin a larf incha?
Nice idea, but it'll never work. As long as you give nice clear instructions and get a kosha readback, there shouldn't be a problem (most of the time).

Cheers,
LXGB

"Incoming!!"

[BEXIL160]

I think the posts above give you your answer.

BTW Many people use the word "degrees" after a heading instruction to avoid confusion with FLs. Not strictly part one and a bit wordy but I'll not argue the point.

As for too (sorry) many instructions in one Tx, well that's pretty silly. The aim of the exercise is to get the info ( heading, level frequency ) to the a/c, and to cross check by getting a readback. All in the shortest time. Give too many instructions at once and (a) the poor aircrew get confused (not surprising really, anyone would) (b) the readback doesn't happen or is wrong and (c) you end up saying it all again. Not very useful on a busy freq is it?

Remember also many of the aircrew operating into the UK do not have English as their first language, so even with standard RT phraseology confusion can arise whena controller has a particular accent. (Not BBC)

rgds
BEX

[Serco Stuffer]

Is this harking back to the original airways system. Follow the red one then the green one and maybe the blue one?

[identnospeed]

noblues,

If the no. of times you get a QSY instruction that also includes a level change(in the UK) occurs more than 5% of the time I'd be very surprised.

Usually it happens when a controller has forgotten to descend/climb you to the standing agreed level, and adds it on realisation of this fact at the time of transfer.

It really isn't the done thing !

Some ATC folks won't even give a heading change (if it ends in a zero) and a QSY just in case the pilot takes the heading as a level. eg. when a/c climbing to FL190, and a new hdg of 330 is given, the ATCO makes sure that the pilot reads back 330 as a HEADING before the QSY instruction.

INS

[noblues]

identnospeed - I except it doesn't happen that much in the UK, but in certain parts of Europe is more common practice.

Often in the UK a Hdg and FL is given in one transmission, then imediately after the readback we get a QSY.
This interups the other crew members confirmation of whats been set in the autopilots ALT window, so it never gets checked.

The jist of other reply's is that becuase the Hdg and FL's have been read back OK their is no cause for concern.

My and other company's SOP is for the NHP to take the call and readback whilst the HP sets the ALT in the window. Then the NHP reads the new ALT and the decent/climb mode.
Often this check is missed in busy airspace, commonly when the transmision is followed by a QSY and the NHP has his head down setting the new freq before he forgets it.

I don't envy ATC's job ay busy times, I think you guys do a fantanstic job and their are cases when transmision time is at a premium.

[Kirk to Enterprise]

Tempo,
You must be kidding!!
Use "degrees" or end headings with five. This is the only way.

Noblues,
A good point.
Maybe we should give time for the ‘set & check’ before the QSYinstruction.
This could help reduce level busts.


------------------
Kirk out

[OrsonCart]

Adopt the American frequency change style: -

"Contact London control eighteen eighty two"

Speed instructions as: -

"Speed one eighty knots"

Add "Degrees" to any heading instruction so the instruction becomes "Turn right heading two nine five degrees"

[BEXIL160]

...orsoncart....

Won't work in Europe. Too many nationalities with various levels of ATC English. Lets stick to standard ICAO phraseology.

BTW how do the Americans say "Channel 132.005?" Oh, they don't, cos they ain't got 8.33mhz spacing. Unlike EUR.

Rgds BEX.

P.S. I have a number of FAA controller friends / colleagues. They are ALL nice people.

[Fly Through]

Now I was always taught never to put a QSY instruction with something thing else that needs reading back. If the heading/level is readback wrong how do you correct it when the pilot has already left the frequency?

Rgds FT