Defence Cuts..I mean re-organization!

[Grimweasel]

From the MoD website today..just a snippet from Hoon's statement to the house...

"Mr Speaker, critical to our prosecution of the war against terror are our Special Forces. We were able to announce some improvements to our Special Forces in July. We are also looking at the broader arrangements through which the Armed Forces provide support to special forces operations. One option that has emerged in this continuing work is the creation of a tri-Service “Ranger” unit, which would be dedicated to special forces support. I have decided that it would be appropriate to develop such a unit over the next few years, which would take its place alongside the other enhancements to specialist support elements of the Army.

The fourth infantry battalion reduction will therefore be found by removing the 1st Battalion The Parachute Regiment from the infantry structure, and using its highly trained manpower as the core of a new, tri-service ranger unit."

So only two Para Btns now in 16AA Bde! This could have far reaching consequences for the TAC AT world. Less ABEX's and MSP's. TRI SERVICE too. Imagine the scene in the local H bar when you have PARA REGT and 2 SQN RAF side by side in the same unit?
Could mean MORE AT work if this 'Ranger' Btn retains its PARA capability?
Interesting times what?

[Anton Meyer]

Just a thought, but could Buffy be dipping his toe in the water that is Purple?

I wonder.

Tri-Service Rangers.....perhaps they could wear that bluey-black urban DPM they sell on the high street. They could be both tactical and fashionable at the same time.

[FatBaldChief]

It will not be long before we all go the way of one service doing all the fighting and defending on land, sea and in the air.
Will this work? Has it worked? I don't think so.
Reduce all of us to wearing black flared trousers with a camo jacket topped with a blue beret the size and shape of a dustbin lid.

Sporting a Rifle/Eagle/Anchor motif and the motto

'Responsible for all, Best at None'

History,Expertise,Honour,Pride,RIP :8

[mbga9pgf]

On the contrary, imagine all the cash and beaurocracy we would save if instead of just merging PTC/STC we went the whole hog and merged sea/air/land commands. Seems silly cutting back on strategic reserves/redundancy of front line troops when we have 3 personnel, pension, engineering, casualty reporting facilities in our command establishments. And I dont fall for that crap about loosing our service identity. Its a command. Service identity does not regularly surface in such a place. Besides, we could all have seperate sides of the bar to drink in.

[Green Meat]

Pardon my French mbga9pgf, but b*ll*cks! Yes, there may be three of each, but look at the processes of how each work and you'll see that unless there is a common process there will be no single command. The process of creating a unified way of operating is slowly, and I mean slowly taking shape. I don't believe that all three will be subsumed into some kind of conglomerate defence force in any case in this country because of the traditions that abound within the three services. Look at the Israelis, for example. A relatively clean slate towards the end of the forties (albeit with some inherited structural procedures), and although all three arms work effectively together, the Heyl Ha'Avir is still a separate entity because although the mission is similar, the method of fulfilling that mission is not the same as that of the IDF.

New or old services - all appear to find a better model than the merged triumverate.

[16 blades]

As always, for 'Joint' read 'Army', and I for one have no interest in serving in such a unit. From an Air Force point of view, the Army are a pain in the @rse to work with as they are often inflexible and just don't get the way we do things. I think merging the 3 services will cause everyone to lose - The light & dark blue will have to put up with antiquated and inflexible Army practice, the Army will have to put up with our 'modern and progressive' (by comparison!) ways, and we will all have to put up with the Navy's barking traditions. We're just all too different.

16B

[Oggin Aviator]

Navy's barking traditions

At least we have some traditions :}

Just kidding, the Crabs are lovely, in a fluffy bunny, crew duty time regulatory kind of way.

[mbga9pgf]

Green,

agree with you on your points, reviewing my last rant it was rather simplistic. It does seem madness though when national strategic reserves are reduced on the front line when there possibly may be scope for reductions in redundant functions at command level... the reductions in cost from physically locating commands together alone must be worth it without including taking out the redundant services they provide. Just a suggestion, does not neccesarily mean its an intelligent one....:8 :8

[Ray Dahvectac]

Ask the Canadians how their dabble with 'jointery/integration' went. :rolleyes:

[16 blades]

Listening to Buff's replies to questions in the House today, I cannot believe the levels this man will sink to.

To pare us to the bone in a time of high Op tempo is one thing, but to then have the sheer bare-arsed audacity to stand in front of the House and make out that it was OUR idea, and that MoD was giving the forces what WE have asked for, is beyond the pale. In fact it is SO far beyond the pale, that light from it takes a million years to REACH the pale.

Words fail me.

...for once.

16B

[Grimweasel]

Good points.. we really should have a merged command in terms of manning and records / pay / supply etc. Just have the unit identity @ the sharp end where the team spirit and comradarie matter most!

[airborne_artist]

But just think - CGS is now going to have his very own set of Power Rangers that he can play with!

[Green Meat]

Mbga...

Great Scott! This could be the first time anyone's agreed with me on this forum!

Yes, I'm actually in favour of appropriate support functions being merged - the DLO being one of those good ideas which, and I may be slightly off beam here, still isn't quite living up to the ideal. I quail at the thought of absolute jointery such as co-merging the three officer training courses together. Of course, if that ever happened Cranners would be the place. Lots of green for our camo bretheren, an airfield for our lot and a damn great lighthouse for the Navy! :ok: I'll leave this topic alone now as it's been done to death.

Back to the plot:
There are plenty of initiatives afoot to develop joint procedures, and having looked into some of them I have to say that it's a damn good idea that's long overdue. Grimweasel is absolutely correct, however, leave the sharp end alone.

[Spotting Bad Guys]

16B

Buff can say that because it's exactly what our senior leadership is saying! (Clearly with one eye on that knighthood/next gong/military sales directorship etc etc)....

:mad:

SBG

[althenick]

the Army are a pain in the @rse to work with as they are often inflexible and just don't get the way we do things. I think merging the 3 services will cause everyone to lose - The light & dark blue will have to put up with antiquated and inflexible Army practice, the Army will have to put up with our 'modern and progressive' (by comparison!) ways, and we will all have to put up with the Navy's barking traditions. We're just all too different.

From my point of view (EX Civvy Comms specialist/Project Engineer and RNR Greenie) Of all three sevices the Army (RCS) had the most "Can do" attitude of them all. I had a project up at Balado which involved running some Fibre and installing a MUX. Not a big job but could I get the Civvy Techs to go up there? - could I bo110x! I explained the problem over the phone to the OIC there, and without even a request from me the Guy (A captain) had jobbed off his team to do the install. All I had to do was set it to work - Brilliant. Most of my Projects were Navy and they always tried to help as much as poss but shore comms to most of them was a black art! On the other hand the RAF (on a certain airbase in Morayshire that doesn't have tornado's) wouldn't even look after the Navy kit that was required to monitor surface movement's. Ask thier Techies to look at it over the phone and you got the bums rush! I can't count the number of times i've had to go up there being told that they had a serious problem only to find out the kit require a power-cycle or a properly trained Comms tech to operate it!...

... What I'm saying 16B is DONT KNOCK THE ARMY :* But I definitely agree with you on the merging thing.

[BEagle]

"The Government requires the Armed Forces to implement the following....."

A frequent directive from Monastery of Definance beancounters - and what happens?

The RAF rushes round making even bigger cuts and smiles at the minister like a sycophantic lapdog.

The Army announces that yes, changes will be made. One or two token gestures are made with 'more to come'..

The Navy mutters something in fluent Jackspeak and does.....nothing.

Good for the Navy! But if it all turns purple, which culture would predominate?

[Maple 01]

Perhaps one of the reasons RAF techs aren’t keen to get involved with other people's kit is that their experience levels have been eroded over the years by contractorisation - There was a time when the RAF was responsible for entire comms networks, hardware, software etc. It was easy enough to get the JT on a remote site to reset something or put a monitor on the cct. Now its all down to Cogent, Fujitsu etc the RAF lads might not even be able to access hubs and routers!

The level of co-operation from the civvies is buried in contracts and performance schedules - you get exactly what you pay for - anything else is an extra.

It costs money and time to produce good techs and their knowledge has to be continually updated. Problem with that is treating fully trained specialists in a buoyant job market like sh!t means they leave in droves. So we contractorise, which in the short-term saves a few quid and we don't have to address the problem of how we treat our specialists - in the medium to long term we get shafted over the maintenance contracts and lose 'corporate knowledge'

[tucumseh]

I think the Army have debated this long and hard over many years and they have come to a good compromise. None of it was a surprise. General Jackson spoke well, candidly and with deep knowledge.

He also made a clever point. The real change is not the infantry issue but that of SF/STA (which he dwelt on for perhaps too long, and he knew it, going so far as to identify hitherto quite secretive roles and players). This is the real enhancement to capability, the success of which will depend on (inter alia) achieving Network Enabled Capability. In other words - Mr Hoon, we've done our bit now cough up the dosh to achieve something which the RAF and RN take for granted (without using the fancy terminology).

I suspect a key trigger to the timing of this initiative is BOWMAN ISD (and that of several other key projects), leaving the Army Board with the high ground and pointing the finger at the politicians (not the procurers, who can only buy what is endorsed and funded). But, that slightly outdated system is only an enabler, not the solution, and I bet General Jackson is glad he's not responsible for delivering that little baby.

[JessTheDog]

The best contribution to the "debate" was by Annabelle Ewing of the SNP who called Buff Hoon a "backstabbing coward."

How true that is, and the majority of serving and ex-serving would agree with her.

:E

[Climebear]

Merging personnel, engineering and supply type things - there's a novel idea that had already been done to a great extent.

DLO = Supply and engineering.

AFPAA = Pay and pensions and will be Casualty reporting, Medal issues and introduction of Joint Personnel Administration to standardize the blunty world across the 3 of us. The people who pay the RAF may be located at Innsworth but they are not part of PTC/PMA.

Manning is a separate issue but cannot really combine unless the 3 services agree on a common way of managing their manpower - as it is the way each manages its other ranks (still the majority of each Service) are different because they are tailored to the Services differing needs. As an example - the Army appear to like their ORs to be young and fit so the opportunity to serve beyond 22 years is limited for soldiers - conversely, the RAF wishes to retain experience for longer and, therefore, has a engagement structure that allows more to stay for longer. Neither is perfect in every respect; but both are tailored for specific needs.

[Maple 01]

Annabelle Ewing of the SNP

Of the same SNP that campained for years to get the RAF out of Buchan only to do a 180 degree about face when they got their wish?

Jock backstabbing b'stards!

[althenick]

Jock backstabbing b'stards!

LESS OF THE 'JOCK' PAL :* - ALL POLIES ARE BACKSTABBING PERSONS OF QUESTIONABLE BIRTHRIGHT ARE THEY NOT?

ANOTHER LITTLE OUTBURST LIKE THAT AND I'LL COME DOWN AND STEAL ALL THE TURF OUT OF WEMBLY:O (FORGIVE ME BUT I ASSUME YOUR A SASSENACH?)

PEACE:ok:

[JessTheDog]

Of the same SNP that campained for years to get the RAF out of Buchan only to do a 180 degree about face when they got their wish?

As the Arab proverb goes, "my enemy's enemy is my friend!"

Keep up the good work, Annabelle Ewing!

[Maple 01]

althenick,

As you say,

They are Jock back stabbing B's in the same way Mr Howard is a Transylvanian one and Mr Blair is a .......er Scottish one, - a mere geographical locater rather than an intended slur on all that hail from the area -

And just because it's open season on the SNP - strange they suddenly became super-patriots and started to fight for 'their Black Watch' in the recent round of defence cuts - I thought traditionally they didn't believe in a military.....?

Opportunist backstabbing Jock B'stards!

[Jobza Guddun]

"Perhaps one of the reasons RAF techs aren’t keen to get involved with other people's kit is that their experience levels have been eroded over the years by contractorisation"

Fair point Maple, but speaking as a techie myself, a bigger cause is the way "Quality" mixed with H+S has gone overboard in the RAF. We have been dumbed right down, and the professional fault-pickers enforce it rigidly.

"You can't use that power set to start your jet, you're not authed"
"But I used them at my last place, I know how to use it"
"We don't auth those, so you can't use it"

A typical scenario, of the sort regularly played out these days. So people understandably go "sorry, not authed, can't do it. Blah", thereby using the system against itself. Anyone who was to trial the new fitness test at Honington will know what I mean.

Allow people to use common sense and experience again, and the problems such as you cite, Maple, will start to disappear. Maybe then we can start being proper engineers again not Kwik-Fit fitters.
:*

[16 blades]

Jobsa,

Alot of that may be down to litigation culture - 'common sense', although very welcome and sadly lacking nowadays, is extremely difficult to quantify. Almost everything has to be justified in some legal framework nowadays because of this govt's (and the EU's) relentless obsession with regulating everything.

16B

[SirToppamHat]

Arrive at new workplace with kettle. Taken away by techies for testing, authorisation and cable replacement(has to be low-smoke and zero-halogen compliant).

Returned with sheath over existing cable. Kettle now next to useless as flex no longer flexes to reach socket.

Why not change the cable? Sorry, says the cpl, can't do that because it would involve crimping, which we're not authorised to do. Needs special tools, (2-wk?) training course, annual refresher etc etc.

Having confirmed this was not a wind-up, asked him what would happen if I took the kettle home and changed the cable myself then presented it for testing, registration etc. Response? They would confirm cable OK, test and inspect then let me use it.

These are professional CE technicians. It has cost the RAF a fortune to train them yet they are treated like children, whilst the RAF pays for external contractors to come in and do jobs that they could do themselves. It's no wonder some of them are pi**ed-off. This chap had 400 other existing minor electrical items to check annually!

[althenick]

They are Jock back stabbing B's in the same way Mr Howard is a Transylvanian one and Mr Blair is a .......er Scottish one, - a mere geographical locater rather than an intended slur on all that hail from the area -

And just because it's open season on the SNP - strange they suddenly became super-patriots and started to fight for 'their Black Watch' in the recent round of defence cuts - I thought traditionally they didn't believe in a military.....?

Opportunist backstabbing Jock B'stards!

...Sh!t - can't argue with any of that:(

[Tartan Giant]

The UK is the 4th richest nation in the world, so why is Hoon the Bafoon saying we cannot afford the military staff/equiptment we have!?

In the face of all these terrorist threats which caused the idiot to put tanks in and around LHR, we now see our army, navy and air force being cut to the very bone - this is very dumb.

We read of Germany's increasing bad economy - but it does not stop them building up THEIR forces! Where do they get the money?

Please read this email that is doing the rounds - from one who really knows the score and is very worried, Lt Col Beckhough (do a 'google' if you do not know of the man).


Cheers

TG
------------------------

Whilst Hoon pretends we cannot afford to protect this nation in the worst times - and cuts our land, sea, and air forces, others have found the money (somehow) to build up theirs! Rings any bells?

If you don't smell a rat, then it's too late.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: More facts on Germany re-arming - from Lt Col Beckhough.


----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Beckhough
To: Stan Parr
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: More stunning truths from Lt Col Harry Beckhough


Stan correction: I was serving in India as an RA gunner officer (having joined in the ranks) when kidnapped by Bletchley Park. They discovered that I was a philogist with specialist knowledge of German.

They then made me into a Code-breaker,sending me to serve with the 8th Army, breaking Rommels messages etc., so I became more and more involved with Germann history, especially recent and present, as menacing and aggressive as ever...plug read my book "Secret Communications" about cryptology-to blind you with science!

Now the facts up to date, for general interest, culled from Intelligence sources: Germany alone in Europe continues with Conscription, building her Armed well-trained Forces. Why?

Today, Germany through EU and NATO involvement, is second only to America as the biggest supplier of servicemen for peacekeeping forces worldwide, with over 10,000 troops deployed.

Peter Struck Minister of Defence, claims more German troops are integrated into NATO than any other Army.
The Bundeswehr [have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr ] responsibilities have changed from originally only "permitted defensive", to "preventative conflict prevention" and "crisis management" - digging Germany deeper into each continent.

Now, with contrived excuse for long-distance "rapid response" missions, they are gaining better and improving communication, intelligence, reconnaissance, mobility, confrontational capability, and "post-conflict" support (unlike the Iraq situation post-war.)

Peter Struck said at a Press Conference 13 Jan "...the Bundesswehr will be developed according to an entirely new system of force categories, while maintaining the 5 military organisational areas of Army, Air Force, Navy, Joint Supply Service and Central Medical Service." (To me that spells some real organisation, that Hoon might learn if capable)

In Feb at the Munich Conference, Struck said "Our new course makes the Bundeswehr fit for the future (I wonder what future they are planning?). In March he said "This contemporary force is custom-made to play a huge role in the peace-keeping area. This transformation is due to be completed by 2010" (How does one define German peace-keeping?)

Remember: Post-war German Armed Forces were directed by law to be limited in power - maintaining only sufficient strength to safeguard her proper borders, NOT the globe.

Compare the Blitzkrieg with their modern 'highly mobile rapid reaction force. The Groundwork is now being laid - needing only the pieces to be put in place.

The goal as I see it, is to translate Europe, from its present military position of inferiority, compared with American present dominance.

This new system, as I have shown, divides some 242,000 [UK 207,000 in toto] service personnel into 3 categories:Response Forces, Stabilisation Forces and Support Forces, as I have described, unless you want more detail?

Query? Whence come the enormous funding? Germany is supposed to spend about 1.5% of GDP [UK 2.33% and Hoon says cut] on defence only, and has supposedly cut spending on defence by more than one billion this year.

But Wolfgang Schneiderhan, Bundeswehr Chief of Staff, issued "a directive to examine the entire service-school system of the Bundeswehr. Our armed forces will be more operations-related, better trained and more professionally led."

The world seems to have forgotten the warlike nature of German efficiency and ability to streamline, as demonstrated in aggressive war after war.

In the meantime, whilst puzzling about the cost, compared with Hoon's puerile excuses for weakening our own defences and demoralising our troops, just consider the rise of the neo-Nazis, now coming more blatantly into the open, especially East Germany and Bavaria, led by Stoibert.

He expects to be the next Chancellor and the rapid growth of the NPD German Military Initiatives: $24.8 million dollar contract to European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co - all weather radar systems for global surveillance imaging. Procurement of state-of-art helicopters, transport aircraft and 3,800 protected command transport vehicles. Acquisition of 180 Eurofighter jets ($22 Billion), the costliest arms deal in the Bundeswehr history.

Development of "infantrymen of the future" equipment for 80,000 operations personnel.

New command frigate SACHSEN, one of the most advanced armament developments in Germany's history. 3 more for 2005.

4 type-212A Submarines [have a look here at the German/Italian pact http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/crustmov.htm ] the most advanced in the world.
ThyssenKrupp purchase of the world's largest submarine maker to act as core of a heavyweight warship (Frankfurter Allgemein Zeitung 21 May.)

Germany's elite force KSK to be increased and integrated with NATO's rapid reaction force in 2005.

German efforts to secure a permanent seat in the UN Security Council - held by only 5 other nations in the world - which would grant Germany voting power.

All this aggressive high-speed manoeuvring puts Germany in top dominant position in Europe, NATO and UN. And the world again looks on, with Britain disarmed and unprepared as usual, but in even worse plight under Labour and Blair!

Are we sold out to the German European Union?

[TC27]

Ermm

Germany is committed to making 20bn worth of defence cuts over the next ten years and ending conscription. Meanwhile hasnt the MOD secured a real terms rise in spending?

[JessTheDog]

Germany is committed to making 20bn worth of defence cuts over the next ten years and ending conscription. Meanwhile hasnt the MOD secured a real terms rise in spending?

No. During my time in uniform recently, I was told by fairly senior sources that the MoD was effectively bankrupt. Any rise in spending is illusionary as it comes after the rebalancing of the books through RAS. Also, much-quoted capabilities such as Astute, Bowman, Nimrod MRA4 (Nimrod 2000?), Typhoon (EFA 2000?) have been on the order book for decades. These are not new capabilities, merely late ones! NEC is a figleaf for procurement incompetence and many aspects of NEC (certainly the datalink aspects) are relatively inexpensive and fielded already.

This is all about short-sighted cost cutting.

[ShyTorque]

Dear Mr. Hoon,

I continue to be impressed how the RAF has been improved from 110,000 wasteful full time members down to a figure of less than half this, including semi-retired staff, who now commute back from the south of France to fly.

Well done, how soon can you improve this figure down to a few MOD admin staff who can concentrate on sitting on nice new leather chairs and composing nasty letters to possible enemies?

Yours in awe at your expertise in clouding the truth,

ShyTorque.

[steamchicken]

If you think Edmund Stoiber is a neo-Nazi, you should also think Michael Howard is. They have near-identical political positions and styles. This is frankly silly.

[LoeyDaFrog]

Jess, Beags

mmmm, can only shake my head in disallusioned agreement. Seems from my humble position (office that came with the out of branch tour) that those of us actually doing the job are always ignored whilst those of them 'leading' those doing the job make decisions based on that old chestnut that 'it is a crock of **** and it stinks' being translated by layer upon layer of Snr types to - 'it is strong and promotes growth'. I have spent the last few months feeling sh!t£ because whenever my SNCOs or Cpls asked a question, I could only shrug my shoulders and say dunno, simply 'cos that was the response my boss got from his boss etc etc etc.
so, those of us left, get more pis...sorry, annoyed with having to do much much more, with so much less.
Strange thing is, the actual daily grind is quite enjoyable, top bunch of people working for me etc etc and I guess that is what is keeping me in.

[Pureteenlard]

Perhaps you should try listening to this;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/ourbraveboys.shtml

A bit like "Yes, Minister" but in the MOD. So far they've tackled the Typhoon's gun, FRES (and why it's costing so much even though nobody actually knows what it is yet) and how the MOD has never, ever used equipment for the purposes for which it was bought.