Queensland Rescue Pty Ltd

[D. Insider]

I believe a commercial operator is due to take over the Queensland Rescue operation Mid next year, for a 12 month trial. This, I believe, followed a confidential report outlining the extraordinary financial liability of Queensland Rescue on the Government. Not surprising considering the amount of staff they have at those bases.
No doubt a commercial or non-profit organisation could do it cheaper.
:ok:

[Capt Benetton]

Not surprised, heard they have just had a major investigation go down at the Townsville base.

A link maybe:confused:

[Scattercat]

I guess thats the great thing about a "Rumour" network. You can post all sorts of fanciful ideas & see who bites.
Come on boy's .... tell us more. I'm sure there's lots of staff who'd be interested to know about their jobs??

[deeper]

CHC recently put a proposal forward to the government to take over the Townsville base of the rescue service but it hasn't been accepted as it is more than the current operating costs.

Queensland rescues new EC135 (the replacement for the AS350) is well behind delivery over a dispute concerning damage to the tailboom incurred during transport from the factory. Eurocopter want to repair it but the service wants a new one,
cannot blame them.

Then there is the ongoing problem of the medical union refusing to allow doctors to travel on the Bell 412's, a problem that may spill over into the Royal Flying Doctor Service shortly.

A recent episode had a doctor, who would fly in the helicopter, having to be flown hundreds of miles in an aeroplane to man the Cairns helicopter to attend a case. These very professional flight crews are sitting around day after day doing nothing.

It is not the emergencies that are the problem as they use paramedics most of the time, it is the hospital transfers that are suffering from the refusal to fly.

:confused:

There are currenly no plans for the Government to hand over control of this excellent service.:ok:

[Capt Benetton]

I can see why Townsville was the first base looked at, understand that the investigation was very high level and looked at many different aspects of the running of the base, with a particular emphasis on the recruitment of staff:confused:

Interesting that CHC was unable to come under the QLD goverment for operating costs:yuk:

[D. Insider]

Yes ‘deeper’ you are correct. CHC did put a bid in for Queensland Rescue. I believe the bid was extremely competitive, to the point of being way under the current operating costs of QR. You don’t have to be a business expert to realise it wouldn’t be hard to undercut the Queensland Government with regards to QR. They have so many staff at each base and even a full time administration assistant. Going from something like 13 staff to 6, well you do the figures. The fact all the reports and cost evaluations have been kept ‘private’ should indicate something.

The fleet and crew management structure of CHC would enable QR to be run efficiently and effectively. They even have the ability to replace the line aircraft, should it be offline, with another one of similar type rather than an AS350.

The newly formed Australian Helicopters also has some in-roads…

Yes, it is an excellent service, that is costing a ‘S#%^ Load’ to run.

Well, who ever takes over next year won’t need to work hard to reduce costs!!

Richard:ok:

[Feet Wet Fred]

I have just arrived on the seen in Oz and I can't believe the scuttlebug that is getting around within the industry regarding the Townsville QR issues.

All I can add to it (as what I have heard) is:

1. If ex RAN crews are the best people for the job, then so be it; if they're not the best or recruitment bias is seen, then questions should be asked...:suspect:
2. It doesn't matter where you come from on this small planet; a government that has the strangle hold on a service that is at the beck and call of government depts and/or the politicians then ever they require a lift here and there will protect it. Then when a competitive commercial organisation comes on to the scene to threaten the status quo, all stops are brought out to ensure that through the endless :mad: tender paperwork and hurdles imposed by the gov' make any company think twice about continuing with their tender application.
More than likely, the real operating $'s are twicked to make the gov' service look good against comercial competition.;)

[Quickdraw]

I think it would be great for QR to go to a commercial company. The problems in Townsville are based on the culture that has been there from the very early days, not necessary the individuals (well maybe some!).

I say bring on a private operator, maybe not CHC as it would be good to have a bit of diversity around the country.

[jinglejim]

I'm lead to believe that Careflight on the gold coast are now providing Doctors to the QR service, through there careflight medical services branch....interesting... Maybe there on a mission to take over the QR operation entirely.

[Zoomtrap]

Does anyone know if it's just Townsville first up or will it be all the bases including Brissy. I know the Care Flight doctors are moving in. I guess it is just a matter of time. Would Care Flight be the best to take over?:bored:

[fullflaps]

One only hopes that you boys up there in Gods playground have your doctors remain that, doctors...:ugh: It would seem the doctors down in this neck of the woods want to dictate what operation is used and where, leaving some choppers on the ground while other machines fly past their door to the task, taking up vital time. The Gong is having huge troubles at present that appear to be very political.:yuk: It would also appear that the doctors didn't want the Illawarra to get the service in the first place, and have been very reluctant to fund the medical team for the local machine....dollars moving out of Sydney!
Other operations run fully qualified paramedics and seem to get the task completed without any hiccups!

Safe Flying
:ok:

[Capt Benetton]

Heard that Brisbane will be looked at in 12 to 18 months.

Having read the thread about Careflight, I really don't know that they are the best people to take over the QR ops.

:ok:

[Quickdraw]

Capt B, I agree!

[one-are]

Fullflaps,

you are only just scraping the surface there with the problems at the 'gong with respect to the doctors. Agree that is a problem but there is more happening that meets the eye.....

How is this for the latest, Lifesaver 1 goes off line during a mission, call in the Gong boys to bring the aircraft to Sydney and then ditch the crew so the Sydney crew can go glory hunting. How do you reckon might the 'gong boys feel after sitting around for months without tasking because of the beaucracy and told to get out of their own aircraft when finally they get a sniff at a job. I hear the rescue crewman sat around in his wetsuit for a considerable amount of hours just to really make it as uncomfortable as possible.

Wait there is more, new crewman coming online next week, do you think the chief crewman had anything to do with the recruiting, not a chance. He wasn't included in the recruitment selection, why, they are really trying to ostracize him in the hope he will move on. Another shining example of Sydney/SLSA really trying to drive the nail into the personnel at the gong. If these guys were not as strong as they have been the community would have lost this service long ago. (by the way a clubbie got the job surprise surprise!)

I know this is about QR topic and maybe I will repost on the old NSW EMS topic but just wanted to update and support fullflaps comments.

[helmet fire]

one-are,
You indicated on the last thread that you are new to all this, so please dont take this as the "e police". Your comments are termed "Hijacking the thread" in pprune speak, and could possibly be the subject of its own topic. I agree with your suggestion at the bottom of the your post to start a new thread: so I'll set one up with your post because you raise some interesting points.

Back to QR: I believe the current QR issue is one of Doctor insurance (accidental death, etc). The govt has not got sufficient cover, thus the door is open to the better covered Care Flight Docs. Does anyone know if that is the extent of the issues, and will it be resolved soon?

And what is all the hinting about an investigation in Townsville? QR have a fantastic reputation and I am suprised by this thread.

[Scattercat]

And what is all the hinting about an investigation in Townsville? QR have a fantastic reputation and I am suprised by this thread.
Helmet ..... don't be suprised by rumours & inuendo, just by the facts.
D. Insider / Capt B .... the only problem with predicting the future is that you look like a "goose" when the world dosen't end when you said it would!! No doubt time will tell?

[RobboRider]

Helmetfire:

I have been out of the immediate loop for a couple of years but was a flight physician on the Cairns 412 for about 5 years. Now have steady contact with one of the physicians who was still crewing until this last fracas erupted. He's also a union rep and one of the louder voices and has given me a fair bit of the goings-on.

Basically this is just one of a number of issues going on (and it was going on back when I was on the crew. Basically the cover Q Health offered through workers comp was little more than chook feed - which is why I took out my own. I got my own insurance cover because I was also flying myself around in my R22) none of the others said they could (or should) afford their own cover. They have a point about the life insurance.

In the interim there has been threats to pull out over single engine vs twins & IFR rated vs VFR night rated helicopters and crews. At Cairns there was also bureaucratic internal probs with staffing the emergency room with enough docs so that the helicopter could be manned as well. (don't know if that was a problem in other places but since it is the same employer (Qld HEalth) I can't see it being different.

In the middle there was turf wars over who should be manning the helicopter - docs or paramedics. And who should be tasking the medical crews - hospital or ambulance. As the other factors took hold the paramedics were going out more and more without doctor cover and hospital admin started seeing their staff pay budgets decrease so they were happy not to resolve the situation. (para's pay come out of Qld Emergency Services budgets not Qld Health.) At present there have been only a couple of reported disasters or worse patient outcomes from paras going out alone and no relatives know about them so no complaints (cynical ba.:mad: d aren't I) to the health departments or lawyers- so the bean counters are happy to see the docs stay off the helicopters. On that point you have to realize that the doctors who go out aren't just your junior interns or even medium level doctors. These are all highly trained specialists in either emergency medicine or anaesthesia/intensive care. Several world studies (including one from NSW) have shown when you staff helicopters with paras or junior docs the patient outcomes are about the same but when you only use specialists the outcomes are much better - so we never sent any juniors on their own ever. But that costs more money so QH is happy they aren't going.

So it was just one of a number simmering problems .

[Av8r]

Several world studies (including one from NSW) have shown when you staff helicopters with paras or junior docs the patient outcomes are about the same but when you only use specialists the outcomes are much better - so we never sent any juniors on their own ever.

RobboRider, what, in your opinion, would be the difference in level of care given to the same critically injured motorist still wrapped around the tree by those three choices? In your experiance, what would be done differently and why?

[RobboRider]

Av8r:

I think mostly it is related to being able to diagnose things better, realise what's going on and begin treatment. There is a difference between stopping things getting worse, stabilizing, and commencing the fixing up phase.

It's been said The "Golden hour " concept only changes outcomes when the fix-it phase is started within the hour. Stabilizing or slowing down the demise doesn't seem to alter outcome. That might be as "simple" as fluid resuscitation - but also might be complex like the choice of pressure control ventilation vs volume control ventilation. (These are modes of ventilating someone (a level of complexity higher than just sticking tube down their neck and sqeezing a bag) or beginning heart optimizing drugs and deciding on which one depending on what else is going on with the patient - do you choose Alpha agonists or beta agonists (different types of heart drugs) or nitrates.

Similarly there is a better appreciation of what's going in this patient with the rest of their systems. Being able to look outside the algoriths and protocols.

The other thing that I saw in some of the juniors was a failure to appreciate the significance of things simply because the level of knowledge wasn't there (from simple lack of experience.) Sometimes a little knowledge was not enough for people to realise they were not equipped to handle where they were taking themselves. The classic is the (and I have personally had to rescue patients a couple of times) when the proper treatment is to intubate and ventilate and the guy on the scene knew that - fine- got out the drugs fired them in - patient paralysed - then - couldn't intubate! Bag and mask - couldn't ventilate! Patient has three minutes to live.
Operator knew how to sling a tube in the easy "normal"patient but these were not easy nor normal but his experience wasn't enough to work that out. Fortunately these were while we in the resusc rooms in peripheral hospitals and when I took over and used some tricks we got out of trouble but...... these are tricks I learned as a specialist over fifteen years.

Overall it's a mix of things mostly related to experience and training at looking after patients with these problems every day (and doing from start to finish not doing just the front bit and then handing over to someone to sort out the primary disease and any complications that can happen from the treatment.)

Same reason any patient in any field of medicine is statistically likely to do better with a specialist rather than junior with limited experience.

[SmilingAssasin]

That’s great Doc,
But explain to me why it's O.K. for every Ambulance in Australia to be manned by Paramedics/Ambulance Officers and they can attend to the same accidents and medical jobs by road. But as soon as it's a 'CHOPPER job' the poor ol' Paramedic ain't good enough?
After all isn’t an Aeromedical Helicopter just a flying Ambulance?

I read with interest the latest NSW Rescue Helicopter review which stated a Doctor was “world standard” crewing. From my knowledge of Aeromedicine around the world, it seems a Paramedic and Flight Nurse seems to be the norm.
S.A.

[one-are]

SA
You beat me to it, I remain a little bemused and find it hard to explain that if someone has a fall in the bush and an ambulance can get access, no need for a doctor. As soon as access becomes difficult (ie long dirt track, and helo required to speed up recovery/on scene assistance) then paramedic becomes useless and a doctor is the magician because he is in the helicopter.

Don't these paramedics eat these types of jobs every day of the year and you never see a doctor on the roadside. I certainly respect the doctor's knowledge and skills and it is great having him/her waiting in the resus room to work their team on arrival but "why oh why" do we make out that as soon as it becomes a helo job the job is beyond the capabilities of a para?

[Nigel Osborn]

Many years ago when I started out in the helicopter business, all the pilots received some first aid training from the St Johns ambos. It was pointed out to us both by the ambos and doctors that the best person at an accident scene was an ambo because that was all he was trained to do whereas doctors were more medicine and hospital orientated.
No doubt if there were sufficient docs of Robbos experience that would be great but there isn't.
So for me a broken leg, I would like an ambo. For a heart transplant, I would like a doc.

[helmet fire]

That age old arguement (not the QR one, the para V doc)

I tend to see it in a different light (as usual). It is all about resources, resources, and resources.

Lets take one-are's excellent point: the bushwalker. On the face of he is 100% right, why send the doc when a para will do? There is no refuting this arguement, but it makes too specific a "what if". The helicopter is a far more expensive asset to buy and maintain than a road ambulance, yet it fulfils that role. So why then would we waste all that resource on another ambulance? We dont. The EMS helicopter has two primary attributes to justify its higher resource requirement: access ability and speed.

The access ability is exactly where one-are is coming from, and that example is a good one, but it is only half the arguement, and one-are argues it well.

Speed of the helicopter is used on many levels. It is widely acknowledged that time can be of critical importance in a limited number of cases, but these cases cannot always be determined until specialist evaluation. If we wished to achieve speed of specialist care, we need to get a specialist doctor or specialist access rescue personnel to the situation ASAP.

To take this to extremes, if we had unlimited resources (and training facilities) we could have trippled the number of intensive care wards, have each of the tenfold increase in road ambulances manned with a mobile trauma capability and docs with RobboRiders experience, entrapment rescue specialists at every intersection and blackspot, etc, etc, etc. But obviously, we have limited resources, so how can we increase response speed to the best possible configuration, with the least amount of resource expenditure? We concentrate groups of the specialists in a population/distance matrix and supply them with the fastest response means: a helicopter. AN EMS helicopter.

This is the same way we do with the limited resource of the paramedic on road ambulances. The ideal would be to train all ambulance officers to paramedic standard, and then Special Casualty Access Team standard, but actual resources have forced a limited amount of these people and thus a strategic placement of them around the state.

Now back to the helicopter. It is merely a means of getting a higher trained medical resource to a scene faster AND it can fulfil it's other role of getting to areas ground ambulances cannot. Because we have been forced by resource issues to concentrate the specialists on these helicopters, there are occaisions when it is overkill to send them, such as the example that one-are paints. That is the price of limited resource.

The other NSW helicopters that are mentioned as non doctor operations are non doctor as a result of resource issues, not as a result of preferences. But in this resource limited world, I would suggest that NSW will have a hard time puting doctors in all the helicopters. In the mean time, part-time helicopter paramedics will continue to serve the people of NSW in the highly professional and selfless way that they have done for 30 years without the resources that they could so easily use.

[RobboRider]

Helmet fire has it right. In a resource unlimited world we would have people in every job who have only the highest level of training needed. Including helicopter pilots, but back to the real world!

There is a fair bit of selective reading going on so I need to reiterate I am not talking about the stuff where my blue-rinsed granny with a hanky dipped in iodine could get the job done. If the patient needs someone with first aid training then no one could justify the cost or overkill of sending a doctor (except maybe as an exercise as keeping up skills in a hostile environment).

But a problem with this philosophy is that often the information that gets back to those who decide who should go is often wrong – either worse or better than reality. I did many trips where the info we got was that all hell had broken loose but when we got there it was a job for granny. And the opposite as well – “stable patient” who was actually ready to die and the other scenario which was very common – simple job hardly worth the doc going – diversion in flight to a real job – thank God we have all the gear and doc on board.

Smilin’:

“After all isn’t an Aeromedical Helicopter just a flying Ambulance?

Not no more. That’s the whole concept of the updated version of the “Golden Hour”. The aim is to take the hospital to the patient.


“I read with interest the latest NSW Rescue Helicopter review which stated a Doctor was “world standard” crewing. From my knowledge of Aeromedicine around the world, it seems a Paramedic and Flight Nurse seems to be the norm.
S.A.”

I have to disagree with their statement. It may be the ideal but the actual situation varies from continent to continent, country to country and area to area within the country. Its dictated by mostly economics, as Helmet-fire said.

And also by the type of patient who makes up the majority of the caseload. A service in an area with lots of injuries from say, ski-ing – essentially fit young healthy people who are acutely injured – may well be served adequately with para/nurse teams. Change that to a service with a high load of ICU transfers and regional hospital transfers, older population etc and once a critical threshold of these cases is reached you can’t justify not having doctors who can manage these types of patients.

And also on medical staff demographics. If you have a country with enough doctors, with specialist training curriculae that require/encourage external hospital experience as part of the course you are going to have the doctors available to do it. Go somewhere where that doesn’t exist you will have Buckleys chance of finding a doctor to man the service.

Which is why it’s so hard to compare services and say one is better than the other. Often you are comparing apples and oranges.

Nigel:
“It was pointed out to us both by the ambos and doctors that the best person at an accident scene was an ambo because that was all he was trained to do whereas doctors were more medicine and hospital orientated.”

Kind of unreal world concept that doctors can only work in hospitals and somehow loose their marbles when they walk outside the building. That’s a mindset not a reality. Now I wouldn’t expect an intern to be able to go out unsupported cos they can are still finding their feet in the hospital let alone outside it. But we are talking about specialist level docs.

“So for me a broken leg, I would like an ambo. For a heart transplant, I would like a doc.”

So long as that’s all that’s wrong. Make it a slightly older person – broken leg causes on average 1 ½ litres of blood into the leg. Some narrowed coronaries due to age and diet – less blood to heart – heart attack. Heart function drops off and lungs fill with fluid – patient now in heart, lung failure and by the time he’s sorted out in ICU also kidney failure from the cascade of low blood flow through kidneys. All from a broken leg. (real case, by the way)

So long as you get the diagnosis right in the first place and it’s really a simple as you think it is.

But in reality it’s back to resources (with some turf wars thrown in for fun).

Merry Xmas everyone!

[Steve76]

“After all isn’t an Aeromedical Helicopter just a flying Ambulance?

Not no more. That’s the whole concept of the updated version of the “Golden Hour”. The aim is to take the hospital to the patient.

Very true.

I worked in Ontario Canada for the better part of 3 years in the Air Ambulance system there. I would not hesitate to say that the PARAMEDICS working there are the finest in the world. They operate to a continuing high standard of critical care medicine and are considered to be the "experience" and education level of a 2nd year resident.

Quite honestly, I would prefer a Critical Care Paramedic over a resident anyday.....no offence intended Robborider. I am sure any number of experienced air ambulance pilots would testify to the same.

They intubate, chest tube, inject and run a bag of drugs that is as good as any ER in North America. I have seen some astounding feats of medicine committed in the back of an S76.

What is needed in the Aussie scene is just a little more perspective of what the rest (some) of the world is doing. Sure you can send a doc but an Advanced or Critical Care medic will do almost as well. Throw in a sat phone and you have a direct link to an ER and instructions for care. The paramedics are tools that can be used by an experienced physician and one doc can run a lot of aircraft at one time.

From a pilots point of view: The most frustrating part is the egos from the Docs to the Nurses to the Paramedics to the dispatch to the...
It just goes on.
As pilots we tend to learn and improve off each other. In medical circles everyone believes their method and everyone else is doing it wrong. Nurses are threatened by Paramedics taking the Pediatric calls (thus reducing their teams viability) and the Doc's think the Paramedics know nothing etc...etc...

Personally, I am glad to have seen it all. I loved doing it but threads like this one just remind me that the politics of the job completely overwhelm the moral satisfaction of thinking you actually made a difference today.
Its all about the money....

www.basehospital.com

Check out the promo video and the patient simulator shown on the intro page. Good ****....

[Zoomtrap]

As someone that is directly involved in all aspects of EMS operations for many years, as aircrew; GIVE ME a Para any day over a Doc at an accident scene! Para’s are efficient, safe and competent. This allows an expeditious transfer to hospital for the casualty. Doctors, on the other hand, just get in the way of their own self importance. They want to be in control of the whole operation rather than just concentrating on their ‘JOB’ of saving a life.

As someone speaking from experience I would much rather a Para working on me at an accident scene than a Doctor. In fact, if I can be picky, I would have either a Victorian Para or a South African Para working on me any day.

Have a nice day!

[D. Insider]

Yes Helmet, QR has been going through some very interesting times. The investigation in Townsville was something to do with nepotism or better termed ‘jobs for the boys’. Apparently, there were people that were told they had jobs even before those jobs are advertised, friends of staff etc. Not sure of the outcome of the inquiry but like most government investigations it would have been swept under the table. It is scary because these people are handed a lot of responsibility with what seems little experience. This all follows the ‘ousting’ of the former senior-crewman in Townsville and numerous other pilots that don’t play the game. Not sure of all the details, maybe someone can fill us all in on the outcome of this investigation. ‘Scattercat’ maybe you?

This problem together with the huge financial cost of QR is understandably why Townsville has been selected as the first base for the commercial trial. Lets all see what happens. I know the government wants to retain QR because of the great PR aspect of the organisation, so it will be interesting to see how much of the transition gets released. I believe the government is in negotiations with potential contenders. I am not sure if Care Flight is one of them.

Richard
:ok:

[Av8r]

The Victorian EMS model has been working brilliantly for nearly 30 years. Its fast, its slick and it works.
The horror stories I hear about waiting for this 'magical doctor' to turn up to the helicopter while the poor bastard bleeds out on the side of the road are frightening. Zoomtrap, I couldn’t agree with you more.

[Scattercat]

D. Insider
Have you not heard the saying "a little bit of knowlege is dangerous"??
You obviously know a few bit's & pieces about this organisation from which you have based your comments & predictions of the future. I notice in your posts a lot of ... "Apparently's / Not sure's and I believe's". Now, I know this is a rumour network, however you are getting very close to making some serious allegations of impropriety on the part of a well respected government rescue service. As I mentioned earlier ... time will tell if your predictions of the future of QR Townsville comes true. (Though I don't believe they will) I know that you are incorrect in some of what you say so I doubt the accuracy of the remainder.
As for "Nepotism" ... the recent recruits in this organisation are highly experienced professionals who are well suited to the positions they have. (are you a disgruntled unsuccessfull contender perhaps??)
This all follows the ‘ousting’ of the former senior-crewman in Townsville and numerous other pilots that don’t play the game. Exactly which "game" was it that these people wouldn't play??

[STRYDER]

Dear D-insider,

I'm intersted in the accusation that some QR Pilots have been ousted for not playing the company game!!

Just what is the game? We know that Townsville has had problems with pilot retention and have lost good crew members but surely not all of them have been asked to move on, some may have jumped !!!

Has nepotism been proved (next door neighbours son doesnt count)..? And surely Careflight wouldnt have the spare capacity to run Townsville.

Seasons Greetings

:cool:

[grenade]

Haven't seen a 'Request for Tender'. Do they have those in Queensland, surely they must. After all they wouldn't want to act improperly.

Methinks red budgie just got hit by a bus:sad:

[Zoomtrap]

Insider, sounds like you have hit a sore point with some viewers, maybe you are getting close or closer to the mark, which concerns me as I have heard similar info from the guys in Brisbane.

[D. Insider]

Perhaps Scattercat needs to organise to have the site changed from the 'Professional Pilots Rumour Network' to the 'Professional Pilots Serious Allegations of Impropriety Network’ then there wouldn't be a need to worry about these fantastic rumours.

Richard:ok:

[bladeflap]

I really feel Sorry for you D Insider. I have watched this thread with interest. You really seem to have a personal beef and want to use this thread as some sort of Payback. Be a man and contact the organisation if you have a problem with them. If you have been knocked back for a job we can all see why.

My information close to the source is there has been no investigation into Townsville, No intention to Tender out the bases. In fact they are about to enter into new purchases for the replacement 412 fleet. Dont think that would happen if they were going to wind the service down. Also, Dont cloud the Doctor Issues as QR issues. Only makes you look like you dont know what you are talking about.

How about you make a deal. When all your predictions dont come true, Apologise to Scattercat, and change your dame to D outsider.

By they way Contact QR or the Goverment if you have a problem. Make you allegations formal and public. I know they would be delighted to have the oportunity to formally answer any allegation you wish to put to them. You say they will only sweep things under the carpet. No can do in this governments day and age. Go higher to CJC, Ombudsman. I am sure they will welcome the challange. They are too professional to respond to someone hiding behind a code name. Otherwise.........

[Oogle]

D. Insider

You started this thread you silly twit!!

This is the second topic you started regarding the two operators in that region (CareFlight and QLD Rescue).

I agree with bladeflap. The only new thing QR is looking at doing is replacing the aircraft - no more. You must have a mighty big axe to grind with someone.

Get your facts straight and pull your head in.

[D. Insider]

Good to see some robust debate on the subject has developed.

‘Bladeflap’ they would have to pay their drivers a bit more before I look at applying for a job with them. Do they have a fixed-wing yet? Has anyone seen the wet lease option for the new aircraft proposal?

Richard:ok:

[Wallaby]

After looking at the real cost to the Victorian Government for the Vic Police Aircraft (ie. Standing charge and hourly charge) I don't think the Qld Govt would ever entertain the idea of a wet lease. As for CHC running a cheaper operation. I think not. Get them to supply the same machine with EFIS, 4 axis, same number of crews working a reasonable number of hours, (not that 56hr/week 3/3/3 crap) then add the required profit margin to the parent company, then add in a 0 accident record and I don't think CHC could match the Qld Govt. Whilst comparing accident rates, perhaps the respective State Governments should take over the community providers. This might stop some of the bitching.

[wineboy]

Wallaby,
Why do you think government's go to private (commercial) type companies to run these services? As you mention if you look at the 'real' cost to the Vic Government to run Polair, I think you would see that a private (meaning non-government) operation be it CHC, Bristow, Jayrow will be a cheaper service to run than if they did it themselves (Capital costs of NEW airframes/spares parts etc etc (see standing charge/flying hour charge).

How may 4 axis machines are QR running?????? (I mean actually using the auto-hover function, possibly Spida may use it occasionally) CHC run 5 at the moment. With regard to 'crews working a reasonable number of hours' - this is where the FRMS dictates what a reasonable number of hours a pilot should perform.

PS: And the crew/s would get paid more than the QR guys but that's another story).

:ok:

[Wallaby]

Wineboy, if wet leasing is such a good deal, why do companies like CHC and Esso still buy their own machines. Esso have the d.o.c's for their 76's down very low. They own the airframes and have PBtH on their engines and xmsn only I believe. As far as the auto pilot goes, a machine with 4 axis even without auto hover is a quantum leap over and far safer than a 3 axis machine. There are two 4 axis machines in QR and I believe the auto hover machine is now in Brisbane not Cairns.