Standby AFTER a duty. [Archive]

The Greaser

14th Dec 2004, 20:07

I am assuming the the company count it as a continuous duty otherwise you would require the 12 hour minimum rest period. We sometimes have to do airport standbys if for some reason our rostered duty is cut short (most likely unable to do final 2 sectors of a 4 sector day due to delay running past max allowable fdp). I however have never heard of an (in advance) rostered duty as you have mentioned. Sounds like a nuisance but probably quite legal.

CosmosSchwartz

14th Dec 2004, 22:53

Quite common in my company. If your roster has you flying 2 or 4 sectors then standby for a few hours it's perfectly legal as long as you are within your FDP. Also, just because you have flown your two sectors or whatever does not mean you are off duty, your duty is what you are rostered for.

If on the other hand, you flew a rostered duty and on completion were told to go on standby I think you may be able to refuse if you so chose, but again I don't think this would be illegal.(Assuming any potential callout flight could still be completed within FDP)

VIKING9

15th Dec 2004, 07:23

Having you on SBY for a period after immediately following an FDP is perfectly legal, so long as the total duty time is taken again as rest. It can be a useful period for crew schedullers when they know they are tight on next day cover. Having someone on SBY following an FDP gives them an extra couple of hrs to look forward and re-assign a duty the next day and thus removing the worry of trying to make contact with someone who has finished an FDP and who has switched off the phone !!

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 07:29

This is just another example of crap organisation where we as pilots get dicked about to cover the holes.

On occasion it may be acceptable but as a matter of course it implies roster disruption and is not acceptable.

It simply reflects a poor company culture. :mad:

Phileas Fogg

15th Dec 2004, 08:00

If you have flown 2 sectors and are then asked to do a SBY then it must be as a continuous duty and having already operated, your FDP, not DP, continues and all the while, your maximum allowable FDP is ticking away until you reach the time when you can't go anywhere anyway because you'll be out of hours if you did.
Your subsequent rest period then needs to be based on your total duty, from report time until such time as you go off duty (after SBY) and this rest period would not commence until having finished the period of SBY.
Yes, this is legal and is normally associated with smaller operators, where profit margins may be tight thus in everyone's interest, to keep themselves employed, to be available should an adhoc flight or charter materialise.
No real need for such an outburst as above without knowing more about particular circumstances.

Leo8

15th Dec 2004, 09:12

I work for one of the small turboprop operators and we are rosted standby after duties on a very regular basis. In fact we are almost always rostered on standby (before or after) if we are only doing two or three sectors. Its a real pain doing two sectors, going home and then getting called back again!!! Fortunately that doesnt happen too often!

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 10:03

Phileas Fogg

If you haven't suffered- and I mean suffered - the effects of unacceptable rostering you are in no position to judge how I or others feel about this issue!! PM me if you would like some education on the subject.

Phileas Fogg

15th Dec 2004, 10:21

Woolley,
I'm not going to enter into the slanging match that you are so obviously chomping at the bit to start nor do I believe you are in a position to 'educate' me about rostering. You obviously don't appreciate real 'suffering', CAP371, if these are the regulations you work to, are there to protect 'real' suffering.
OK, you'll get some unsavoury duties along the way that you'd prefer not to do, but real suffering, don't make me laugh!

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 10:25

Thanks Phileas you've just proved your ignorance.

No hard feelings though - I'm still quite willing to educate you if you want. :p

Mr Angry from Purley

15th Dec 2004, 13:55

Stan

Is it more the case you dont like doing sby after a FDP rather than it being crap and unacceptable. You cannot make comment unless you know Mobsters airline, its schedule and the way the Airline works. Would it for example suit you to have one crew doing a short FDP then going home and another doing the sby?.
And who will be moaning about being on standby - you !

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 14:23

Of course I don't like it, because it is unreasonable! How would you like to have a roster that you could plan nothing by? Most of the people who think this type of thing is acceptable are not pilots.

If you've already done a days flying it is reasonable to be able to switch off and go home. If you need someone to do another flight then call out the STANDBY crew. What STANDBY crew you ask? The one you have when you crew the airline in a reasonable and sensible way.

You guys who haven't experienced life under these regimes haven't a clue what it's like and I object to being told that 'it's legal' by someone who hasn't been there !

Phileas Fogg

15th Dec 2004, 14:27

Woolley,
Are you saying it is illegal then? Is this what you mean by educating? Please explain how it is not legal?
We'd all love to work a 4 hour duty then b*gger off down the pub, I guess this is what you mean by 'real suffering'!

'You guys who haven't experienced life under these regimes'

I've been there, done that, got the JEM T-shirt, still wanting to educate me?

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 14:55

Phileas did I say it was illegal? A JEM tee shirt eh, whats that?

Decent companies don't regularly pull crap like this but obviously you are used to such treatment at your level. :rolleyes:

Phileas Fogg

15th Dec 2004, 15:02

Woolley,
Read the thread question, is it legal?

I answered the question factually and provided information regarding other factors that should be taken into consideration when performing such a duty.

What have you contributed to this thread? I'll quote: 'I object to being told that 'it's legal'

You have absolutely no idea what my level is Woolley but I'm obviously more agile than you, I'm not carrying that chip on my shoulder!

Amen

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 15:16

Phileas

Mobster lover is questioning the legality of such duties.

I have made it quite clear that although it may be legal it is not reasonable in my view as it implies roster instability which in fact raises the question of the whole roster's legality.

If I have a chip on my shoulder it is there from hard experience in exactly this area. Roster guys 900 hrs a year but don't take the p*ss at the same time.

CosmosSchwartz

15th Dec 2004, 17:23

implies roster instability

What are you talking about? Someone here is getting the wrong end of the stick, which one of us is it?

The question asked about rostered flight duties followed by standby. Some days I'm rostered for a 12 hour day from report to finishing the paper work. Other days I'm rostered for a couple of hours flying, then on standby for two or three hours. If I get called for a flight then I go flying (obviously as long as it's within FDP etc.) If I don't get called by the end of the rostered standby I go home. No different from any other days flying or standby.

What exactly is the problem with that?

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 19:16

Quote
If I'm right, why would my compny continually roster standby's on the back of duties that don't use the full FDP.

That is what I don't think is reasonable - see the word 'continually' ?

If you don't think that standby's everywhere lead to roster instability just consider what happens to the following days planned duty if you go flying and get back late - you can't do the planned duty - that is roster instability caused by poor planning.

It simply reflects an abusive approach to CAP 371 andcontinually doing it is not acceptable IMO.

Sounds to me like they're probably doing it just because they can, that's what I've seen before and thats what I think is abusive.

That's what I'm talking about!

Mr Angry from Purley

15th Dec 2004, 19:16

Stan

Mobsters said he hasn't done a days flying yet so i cannot see the problem. Whats your definition of a days flying?.

Are you the bloke that complains when he turns up for a PMI then gets sent to FUE, or turns in for a LCA and does a LGW-LTN ferry.

Roster stablity and legality are two different questions, one is legal, the other social.

If your querying the legality try calling the CAA and ask for Flight Ops Policy

Stan Woolley

15th Dec 2004, 19:39

Actually MR Angry because rosters are a legal requirement I believe roster stability must have a legal aspect.

It seems clear to me however that many people couldn't care less about that and that's almost certainly why many airlines these days are both a shambles and a flight safety hazard in this area.

If Mobsters not flying what is he talking about?

Phileas Fogg

15th Dec 2004, 20:47

Woolley,
Despite my alleged poor education I can speak with some authority regarding the rosters referred to in this thread.

Sometimes they operate, let's say, 4 sector duties, other times they operate 2 sectors with a short SBY before of after, continuous would be inapt, regularly would be appropriate.

You state this to be 'poor planning'! If it were planned that they would be called out off that SBY then why the ****would they be planned on SBY in the first place, why not roster them for the supposed planned flight?

They operate a fleet of geriatric turbo-props, lack of spares, crap weather etc. etc. etc. and as they say '**** Happens' or to novices 'Welcome to Aviation'.

The fact they might not be available for the next day's duty is the operator's problem, not the pilot's, something borne into consideration in advance.

You indicated that you consider you annual workload to be 900 block hours, what about the 1900 duty hours or would working a normal life bring on your ill health again?

I guess EZY don't roster SBY's!

Stan Woolley

16th Dec 2004, 01:47

Dear Phileas

On the contrary, Easy were masters of this nonsense, that's why I and large numbers of my colleagues no longer work there.

Just tell me, how many hours do you have working to poor rosters? If it's a few thousand or so I accept that you do indeed speak with 'some authority' on the subject. If on the other hand you've been the one dishing out this garbage then I'm afraid you haven't the slightest idea !

A standby before a flight too eh? Another old Easy trick-and you really can't see how that is disruptive rostering? Well more than enough said really.

Ignorant :- Lacking knowledge. (Oxford English)

SPFlyer

16th Dec 2004, 04:43

Stan,

What a complete load of ****e you speak. I presume you are someone who wants to report at the time it says on your roster and be home 30 minutes after your off duty time on the roster......ever thought about a career change...??

you work for a company, a business, and they are simply covering their backsides by rostering you SBY's before/after filghts in order to cover on-the-day disruption.

Say you are based in LGW, and you have an afternoon JER, whats that; a total of 1hr30m flight time? Please tell me whats wrong with you covering say an early morning PMI of afternoon ALC; god formbid this interfere's with your drinking time??

****e happens mate, planes go tech etc and someone has to be there to pick up the pieces...why not you?

:{

Phileas Fogg

16th Dec 2004, 06:48

Woolley,
You seem to have taken it upon yourself that you are the world's leading authority on rostering and should anyone dare to disagree with you opinion, well we've seen your reaction.

I have more years experience of crewing than I care to imagine, in every company one gets feedback that a proportion of pilots approve of their work patterns, some are pilots that never want to leave home, some are pilots that never want to see home and then there's always one or two that are never happy regardless of what. One soon learns, that one will never make all of the people happy and all of the time.

For 5 years, I set up and managed my own crewing dept. and it was the sort of company whereas my office door was always open for flight crew to come and talk with me. We are all employed to achieve the same end result and quite often pilots would discuss if there was an alternative way of planning something. We would discuss it, sometimes over a beer, and they would normally agree with me or indeed disagree but without being able to offer their own alternative suggestion(s).

You've made it perfectly clear that you have a hatred of crewing personnel, they obviously don't know as much as you and you're never going to listen to reason. I've always tried to have an amicable and mutal respect relationbship with the crews.

Now bearing in mind that you know everything and I'm just plain ignorant then you'll know the precise circumstances at Mobster's operator. Please enlighten us, with all factors taken into consideration, how you would build some SBY coverage into the rostering without a risk of disrupting rosters.

I hasten to add, that at that particular operator, many of the pilots live in excess of 1 hour away from base thus if they were rostered for pure SBY's then they may find themselves overnighting in a motorways services just to ensure they are within one hour should the phone ring.

Of course, we could do away with SBY's altogether, let's mess around the customers that pay all of our wages, lose them to another operator whilst putting ourselves on the dole queue in the process. I guess that would be better for your health, certainly not for mine.

74Freight

16th Dec 2004, 06:52

A few weeks ago I raised this point, standby before or after a flight duty, with the CAA flight ops inspector for my company, (which i suspect is the same one as yours) while being ramp checked as i had heard some colleagues say that it was illegal.

The CAA chap said it seemed pointless to put you on standby before an FDP as it needlessly wasted duty hours, but that it was not illegal if the company wished to do so.

In my experience, one is very rarely called in from standby before or after an FDP. I believe the practice of putting you standby after an FDP has come about after some crews declined an extra sector when asked, so now they can force you to.
Also, one cannot be seen to have too much time off as this upsets the boss, even when there is no chance of a flight.

Stan Woolley

16th Dec 2004, 07:33

Morning Phileas

You've made it perfectly clear that you have a hatred of crewing personnel

Please indicate where I did that? In fact I get on very well with crewing - it's just you I hate. ;)

Can you tell me how many UK airlines have any kind of proper bidline system, as you've said different people want different things?

SPFlyer

What a complete load of ****e you speak

Thanks for that.

whats wrong with you covering say an early morning PMI of afternoon ALC

What's wrong with it is that if you do the PMI you can't do your rostered Jersey flight, so someone else has to cover it and someone else has to cover them etc,etc .

If someone was rostered to be on Stby only then no-one else gets messed about.

SPFlyer

16th Dec 2004, 07:53

11:45 min possible duty time for 4 sectors...more than enough time!!!

Obviously if people are on SBY duty only then that would be better, but i thought the whole point of your initial post was SBY BEFORE duty?

The key to crewing is to produce as few roster changes as possible, but if the SBY's arent there what do you suggest? Sometimes a bit of imagination is called for, and that means disruption for you and your crew.

If the operation went to plan all the time wouldnt it be boring....

;)

Phileas Fogg

16th Dec 2004, 08:10

Woolley,
As one has come to expect, you've answered a question(s) with a question(s), not an answer(s). Clearly, you are one of these people that shouts 'problem, problem, problem' rather than 'solution, solution, solution'. I'm the latter of these I hasten to add.

I don't object to being hated by you, you're obviously a hot-head who shouts rather than talks, I have no idea how many UK airlines have bidding systems, I haven't done UK airlines for a number of years, been doing JAA airlines more recently.

I find that spreading one's wings broadens one's experience, thanks for explaining what 'ignorance' means, it was a word I had forgotten, it's obviously still fresh in your mind though.

ShyTorque

16th Dec 2004, 08:16

This argument seems a little strange to me - surely a pilot must expect to be available for his full duty period if required, whether on standby or not? The duty period should be part of an individual's contract, signed at the point of the first employment. Anything else should be open to negotiation.

14 hour days, up to 12 sectors per day plus captain's discretion are not uncommon in some parts of the aviation industry.

Some pilots are also required to carry out the daily check on the aircraft when away from base, sometimes AT base too, due to non-availability of qualified engineering staff.. but that's another story... :(

Stan Woolley

16th Dec 2004, 08:37

Phileas

Didn't you see the smiley? I don't hate anyone, I just strongly object to some companies solving their problems at the expense of their employees wellbeing.

Over time I saw it happen to large numbers of people at Easyjet which is why I know that it's a problem that really exists even if you can't or won't acknowledge it.

Shy Torque
14 hour days, up to 12 sectors per day plus captain's discretion are not uncommon in some parts of the aviation industry.
Stop it you're making Phileas salivate!!

surely a pilot must expect to be available for his full duty period if required, whether on standby or not?
In fact it was the view of both my boss and more importantly the company lawyer at Easyjet that this was not the case. That's why we have rosters.

Phileas Fogg

16th Dec 2004, 09:23

ST,
It's a little strange to me also if that's any consolation. There is a thead in another forum regarding a suggestion, regarding the AF Concorde, that lawyers butt out of aviation but now it seems they're being invited into the sphere of rosters.

All of this is totally inappropriate for the original post in this thread, there would be no point in pilots bidding because whatever they bid for it is the 'same old sh..', night freight whether to take it to Coventry or Belfast, who cares!

Mr Angry from Purley

16th Dec 2004, 18:40

Stan

CAA view is that you should come to work expecting a full FDP + possible use of discretion.
I therefore cannot accept the Flight Safety issue you mention.

The problem as Fog states is that Pilot and standbys dont mix.
The only Pilots who like doing standbys are those that live locally and they treat them like a day off. In general Pilots dont earn allowances on standby so god forbid they have to use their salary to pay for accommodation etc

P-T-Gamekeeper

16th Dec 2004, 20:15

Have been following this thread with interest for a while. I am currently a military transport captain who is looking to cross into the civillian world in the near future.

It seems to me the main thrust of this argument is that it is anti-social and unsettling to have sby as part of your duty day. If your rules are as I believe, then surely you can only work an overall maximum, whether all rostered duty, or sby.

What is so wrong with having the last few hours of your duty as sby now and again, rather than working your full duty period. Surely this effectively gives you a bit of time do do a bit of admin on the ground.

I agree that if this were to happen every time, it would be too much.

Sorry if some of my terminology/knowledge of your rules is not up to scratch.

Phileas Fogg

16th Dec 2004, 21:19

Gamekeeper,
And if you live locally you can actually go home to do your SBY, go to bed or take the other pilot with you to watch a video with a cup of tea! The only real restrictions are that you'll need your black pyjamas close to hand and you can't drink alcohol. Seems to me, not a bad way of earning a living!

Little Friend

18th Dec 2004, 00:40

Fogg,

Working 9-5,

every weekend off,

public holidays off,

able to make plans,

not fatigued,

eat quality food whenever

and able to walk away from a problem when it get too hard.

Not a bad way to earn a living.

Mobster lover

18th Dec 2004, 01:45

Blimey, what alot of vitriol about a (fairly) simple question!

Since the answer seems to be YES it is legal, I will leave it at that. I don't like being on SBY after a duty, but them's the breaks, as long as it is 'legal' then I have no problem with that.

To answer another point, "is it to cover for roster instability?" Oh yes indeed, the usual story of not enough crew or a/c to cover the roster properly. In that vein, what is a standby crew? ours are always flying!!

Actually, Stan hit the nail on the head with his first post........

HighandTight

20th Dec 2004, 17:21

Mobster, I think you, me, 74F and Phileas all work for the same happy family.

I know exactly what you mean, as we are regularly rostered standby duties before and after flights. This was brought formally to the CAA's attention and also to BALPA.

As usual, utter lack of interest from the CAA. BALPA's point of view was that it is perfectly legal, although poor practice. Considering who we work for, a fair enough answer I think.

As for Phileas's rather smug comment of - you can go home and have a nice cup of tea - well, you might if you happen to live 5 minutes away from Mersey Base. However, more than half the aircrew operate out of other bases and traditionally (and occaisonally due to the company) live much further away, making it very impractical to go home for this 3-4 hour standby.

It's not very pleasant spending 3-4 hours in our Midlands facility offices, especially as the CAA have said it is not fit to be used for split duties.

As the folks at BALPA told us, legal but not particularly ethical.

Oh, and as I think Phileas is management, I'd let this subject drop quietly!

Mobster lover

20th Dec 2004, 20:18

I always wondered about the hangar in the "midlands", tell me does the toilet light work yet? :sad:

offshoreigor

27th Dec 2004, 22:13

Mobster

Does your previous duty day include flight time? If so then the answer is a flat NO. It is not legal. If, however you did not fly, then it is a grey area dependant on your air law.

This is an issue I have always disputed. See my thread on Africa, titled Air Law Lawyers.

Cheers,

:hmm: OffshoreIgor :hmm:

Phileas Fogg

3rd Jan 2005, 19:15

No offence taken but no, I do not work for Emerald nor am I Emerald management.
I have been around though, worked for a significant number of airlines, including Emerald (a number of years back), and have seen this number of different working practices.
Every airline has it's good and bad sides and whilst Emerald might squeeze more, than most, blood out of that same stone, the practice of SBY's before or after an FDP is not unique to Emerald.
How they go about it, man management and all that, well that's a different kettle of fish.
PF

Smokie

10th Jan 2005, 16:19

Seem's that you can do a standby after a duty but not before.

http--www.caa.co.uk-doc-33-FODCOM200229.pdf

Page 7 of 23, para 12.5.

Actually page 28 of 44 on the Pdf .

When any period of standby finishes, during which a callout has not occurred, at least 12 hours rest must follow prior to the next duty period. Similarly, following the end of contactable period or periods at least 10 hours must elapse prior to the next duty period.

Hope this helps.:eek:

Phileas Fogg

13th Jan 2005, 08:50

Smokie,
But you're being rostered for a combined SBY/FDP. Whilst the regulations can't cover every eventuality your SBY will not actually come to an end because it goes straight into an FDP in the same duty period and the rest period will not commence until completion of this entire duty.
To play it another way, they not roster you for the FDP, they just call you out on the SBY for it, the end result is the same but that doesn't help you plan your life.
I believe you'll find your quoted 12 hours rest is incorrect also, unless CAP371 has changed since I worked with it, 12 hours is the minimum rest at base, if you're away from base and/or in accommodation provided by the company then minimum rest is 11 hours subject to the travelling time between the airport and the accommodation.

Smokie

13th Jan 2005, 12:44

Phileas,

I belive the 11 hour rule for Hotel Stop Overs, will be abolished come April 2006.

Mr Angry from Purley

14th Jan 2005, 18:58

Smokie

Not heard that one, there was some banter pre CAP371 4th edition about changing the early rules when UK Crews night stop in Europe but it was eventually put to one side in the "too complicated to handle tray".

pilotbear

22nd Jan 2005, 14:45

It seems to me, and please I don't not mean this as an insult to anyone:) that a lot of people in this business try to argue themselves out of a job. It is like work is something to fit inbetween everyday routine if you have time.:rolleyes:
I always expect to have to give the company a full day to the max, because that is my job.
If it works out that I get home early then I treat it is a pleasant surprise and it makes the job feel more positive.
At the 'lower end of the market' we have to expect to be messed around somewhat and your 'company ' is only trying to stay in business and keep you in a job in what are very difficult circumstances at the moment.
Personally, as an employer, if people moaned when the going was tough, they would be last on the list of 'rewards' when the company prospects improved and first out of the door.

Anyone got a ladder? my soapbox is taller that I first thought:ok: