Frozen NZ ATPL

[leekmas]

Can one do the ATPL theory after CPL completion and have frozen ATPL credits? How long are the credits valid (do they expire if the hours are not obtained within a certain time frame?)

[Tinstaafl]

No such thing as a 'Frozen ATPL' in NZ. Yes, you can do the exams. Not sure on their validity period. However....nothing magically turns into an ATPL after 'x' hours of flying. NZ requires a flight test for the issue of their ATPL.

To follow 'fATPL' logic, when you're a student pilot with PPL theory exam credits are you really a 'Frozen PPL'? Or if a PPL with CPL exams does that make you a 'Frozen CPL'?

[CT7]

Of the 7 ATPL exams, Law is the only one with a limited time b4 you have to fork our more $$$ to ASL.

So do the 6 then wait till you're near a flight test and then cut out Law.

[Sqwark2000]

hey CT7, what's up?

With regard to NZ ATPL subjects.

I don't think you can sit a higher category theory subject to fulfil the requirements for a lower license. I.e you can't sit ATPL subjects and use the credits towards a CPL issue. That was the case for a while when I was instructing many moons ago, but may have changed since then.

Had something to do with the CPL & ATPL subjects "assuming" you have acceptable knowledge of a particular topic of a lower license category and therefore didn't cover some sub-topics, to avoid doubling up of syllabus.

A new system on the drawing boards though is a time limit to be imposed on ALL theory subjects. Something along the lines of 2 years from first subject passed till issue of your PPL, 3 or 4 years from first CPL subject to issue of license, and 5 years for an ATPL.

Retrospective passes will be counted as being done on the first day the system is in place and then you 2,3,4 or 5 years to achieve your relevant license.

Not sure how advanced this system is to being introduced but it has been covered before on PPrune.

Cheers


S2K

[Dupre]

S2K - about a year ago I checked on crediting ATPLs to CPLs - and you can do it - but only for Human Factors. Everything else is like you say - no use for a lower licence.

As for the original question - I am not aware of any expiry date for the ATPL exams - except law of course.

Dupre.

[leekmas]

Thanks folks, yes what I needed to know was if one can have the ATPL subjects passed and remain valid until such time the required hours are attained in order to do the flight test for the subsequent licence issue.

Happy landings!

[DeltaT]

Just to clarify, the concept of a Frozen ATPL comes from Europe, where there is no ATPL flight test. And yes, with the right hours its down to the caa for a licence swap. They very thoughtfully realised you sit your 'flight test', if you like, when you do your type rating on the relevant aircraft. Hence with us, NZ, being behind the times and $$ grabbing, the Frozen ATPL doesn't exist here.

[Tinstaafl]

It's not just the test that leads to that shorthand term. The logging rules in the UK mean that it's possible to qualify for the ATPL hours - including command time even when employed straight from training onto a multi-crew type.

Not the case in Oz, another place where there isn't an ATPL flight test. In Oz, if you were employed onto a multi-crew type straight from training you'd *never* qualify for an ATPL unless you somehow arranged to get command time outside work. Oz logging rules prevent the accrual of the required command time in the multi crew type. As a result it would be more correct for the supposed 'fATPL' to say s/he has a Frozen CPL ie that's the level at which their licence progression is 'stuck'.

[haughtney1]

If youve got the cash...the time..and the right stamps in your passport........head off to Europe....do your time...head back to NZ..and hey presto!..ATPL....(they just issued mine..no flight test...just hand over your money..log book assessment etc...nice shiney new plastic case.....ahhhhh)

:p

[NoseGear]

Hey haughtney, can you pm me mate? I have some questions for you in light of that..........:D

Nosey

[Cloud Cutter]

'Frozen ATPL' is a term sometimes used in NZ to discribe CPL + ATPL theory. The fact that you have to sit a flight test is neither here nor there, it is just part of a command check done by what ever airline you are working for - it doesn't mean any extra work on the part of the pilot, or the airline. The ATPL flight test is simply to stop people aquiring the licence without any relevant airline experience.

As others have stated, I would recommend getting your ATPL credits ASAP after doing a CPL. I wouldn't worry about waiting to do Law unless you expect to be longer than 5 years getting a command.

[2Can]

If you have the required hours for the ATPL issue DO NOT sit the NZATPL subjects. Instead come to Australia and do the subjects, and presto a valid ATPL is in your hand, no flight test required, saving you thousands. Then under the TTMRA transfer to the NZ equivalent.

The NZCAA makes it almost impossible for anyone to do an Atpl flight test if you are not in an airline environment in NZ. They are just trying to make life difficult for everyone. I know I have tried and failed

[stillalbatross]

It is the only country in the western world that has a ATPL specific flt test requirement, it is there to prevent NZ pilots from being employed overseas and it has left many broke and destitute over the years. No other country on the face of the planet has so many 2000 hour plus pilots with ATPL subjects still stuck on a basic CPL that is worthless overseas if your trying to fly on contract. And every pilot forced back into packing shelves at the supermarket or pumping gas to make ends meet puts a huge smile on the faces of those at NZ CAA.

[NoseGear]

stillalbatross, you are so right. If your out there flying Saabs, Beechs, ATRs, Jetstreams, or any other 2 crew turbo prop, have the exams and the min hours, then surely the ATPL should be issued to you. After all, you have already proved and completed all the ATPL test requirements to the airline during the type rating, and during all recurrent training. The only requirement not met is paying out the CAA fee of 1200. With the examiners fee and aircraft or sim rental, the unsuspecting punter is looking at a minimum of 5000 and upwards. :yuk:

Nosey

[slice]

WOW! This explains something to me. Some months back I went for an Eagle interview (but unsuccessful!). During the interview I handed over my logbook/licences/medical etc. etc. which happened to include my NZ ATPL obtained through the TTMRA as described by 2can. I have an Aus ATPL but have only flown AC up to C404 size. The interveiwers seemed perplexed as to how I could obtain an ATPL never having flown a two crew +5700 aircraft. They asked questions about what was required for an Aus ATPL. I replied that it was just a case of having the hours (1500TT/75IF...etc) and passing the exams (with no time limit). They seemed mildly surprised by this and gave the example of having the hours required and then not flying for say 10 years, then sitting the exams and being awarded an ATPL, to which I said that this was possible. I recommend to do as 2can advises before they decide to close the 'loophole'

[Tinstaafl]

Not correct. There isn't a loophole as you described. You have to have a current instrument rating for the issue of the Oz ATPL. That means a flight test will have been passed within the last year.

wrt. NZ being the only country with an ATPL flight test, again, not correct. The US mandates a flight test for the issue of their ATP. Admittedly it could be in a light twin but it's still a test that must be passed, including the ground grilling before getting near the a/c.

Similarly, Ireland (pre-JAR) required a test only this had to be in a >5700 kg type.

Not sure but doesn't JAR now require the same?

[slice]

Where is the regulation stating that your instrument rating has to be current for ATPL issue(?).CASA checklist form for ATPL states "holds or has held". Proceedure would be to convert your NZ CPL/instrument rating to Australian equivalent through the TTMRA then sit ATPL exams. As long as you completed the exams before your Australian CIR expired (based on NZ one) your rating would still be current anyway. :confused:

[Tinstaafl]

Perhaps I'm in error. I'm pretty sure holding a current CIR was a prerequisite when I got mine in the early '90s.


slightly later...

You're absolutely correct. Current regulations *do* specify '...or have held.'

That does open a can of worms about proof of skill!

[stillalbatross]

Tinstaafl, big difference between doing an Ir flight test in a light twin at $300 an hour and shelling out for min 5 hours on type for the rating plus flight test time all at around $2000 to $3000 per hour for your ATPL. If you we going for your NZ flight test for ATPL I don't think you'd get much change out of $20-25000 and that, my friend, is a system that is totally f**ked. Tell me another qualification in NZ (or anywhere in the first world) where you complete 95% of whats required to be hit with a bill like that at the end. Law?, Commerce?, med school? don't think so.

And there is no way on god's earth you are going to scrape together that kind of money instructing. And you need an ATPL issued to work overseas, not a bunch of worthless exams. So when the industry goes quiet you don't have the travel option up your sleeve. Most unfair.

Your Multi IR endorsement should be more than adequate for the requirements of an ATPL issue.

Which has got me thinking, what would it take to change it? I am sure if you explained to a few govt ministers how completely backwards and third world NZ is with this ATPL issue thing maybe they could see merit in joining western civilisation.

[MeatHunter]

Which has got me thinking, what would it take to change it? I am sure if you explained to a few govt ministers how completely backwards and third world NZ is with this ATPL issue thing maybe they could see merit in joining western civilisation.

Aunty Helen and her bunch of marxist hags listen to anyone who has some knowledge on aviation? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING

[Thump & Go]

Albatross where on Earth are you doing a NZ ATPL that costs $20-25000? Someone's having you on surely.
Which A/C did you hire for $3000/hr - sounds like the space shuttle? (they're going a little cheaper these days :))
I think a C421 or similar would suffice and you'd probably get one for just under $1000/hr + flight test fee ($1000?), so maybe change out of $10000?
As you say you're still not going to save that instructing but that's a darn sight cheaper than going overseas (if that's what you want) and starting over from scratch (eg UK JAA). Failing that get a command here then shoot through.

Tinstaafl will probably have the wood on this but I understand the ATPL flight test is coming for the Aussies and the "loophole" WILL be closed/tightened/insert appropriate metaphor here.

[stillalbatross]

From memory it was at the discretion of CAA as too what aircraft under 5700KG they deemed sufficent to test your new found abilities as a potential ATPL holder. The Chieftan on RPT was ok for a while as were a few other things but the Mojave (pressurised Chieftan) seemed to be all that they would comfortably accept these days. So we are talking rating (legal req 5 hours) plus flt test 2-3 hours plus examiner fee $1200. The a/c is not available for under $1500, in fact, since piston motors don't like assymetric work most owners of ATPL applicabe light twins won't let you use the aircraft at all.
The $20-25000 is based upon what three people I know have done it recently on. The aircraft operator stipulated miniimum 10 hours on type (you have no say in when you feel comfortable enough in the A/C) so with the 2-3 hours flt test you are up to 12 or 13 hours at least. Even at $1500 per hour for a POS like the C421 at AFS there is no way on god's earth you will get through with change from $10000.

And if you happen to be flying something EFIS up over 200 tons it is going to take a lot longer to get back into small planes and analogue instruments.

If anything Australia is leaning towards JAA so I doubt they will head back 50 years, introduce an ATPL flt test and join their cousins over the ditch. There isn't a single safety issue that the current NZ system addresses, it exists in it's current state because when it was drawn up in the late 1940's the CPL was all that was required to work overseas and CAA have never bothered to change the regs based on what the rest of the world is now doing.

What saddens me most is those who have been asked to give up holidays, or work free for six months or perform tasks on their employer so that the employer will allow them to sit the ATPL flt test using the company aircraft.

There has been some pretty horrendous stuff going on, it's demeaning and disgusting and the blame can only rest with the NZ CAA.

[splatgothebugs]

Stillalbatross

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD with your last comments.

NZCAA (aviation)is still in the dark ages. A classic example of this is the recent change of the flight levels which most operational pilots where not aware was happening or why till very very late in the piece.

ASL is another example of the industry being screwed and why monopolies are illegal in NZ. BUT thats another story.

splat :ok:

Happy New Year to all

[piontyendforward]

The Chieftan was able to be used for the ATPL flight test because surprise surprise the CAA had one ZK-DCE. When that was swapped for a C421 then that was also approved.

Eagle and Air Nelson use to do the flight test as soon as you had the hours and exams, now use it as a lever to shaft you with and will only do one as part of the command training.

Air NZ pilots can just ask for the flight test to be rostered when they have all the requirements, flight test at no charge you just have to pay CAA issue fee's. Test can be done on the ZFT sim or sim and a route check for non ZFT sim

[NoseGear]

Small point of order, Air Nelson don't make you wait until your command, but they do require a years service and will do it as part of your 6 monthly check, no cost to you. Eagle, as I understand will only do it as part of your command training. Otherwise, the flight test sucks. It is easier than any type rating done for any of the regionals, so why not get it then? Thats right, no "examiner":rolleyes: on board and of course your bank balance is not less 1200 south pacific pesos:E

I know of an Aussie guy, 2500 hours instructing on singles, 150 hours multi, all in a Duchess, no ATO time at all, and 50.1 hours night, single engine. Guess what? Aussie ATPL holder.........:suspect:

Nosey

[stillalbatross]

piontyendforward, slightly incorrect. For a short while the Chieftan was ok and then CAA announced that it was a trial period and they had changed their mind (I understand that was the case with the Chieftan operating scheduled services out of Whangarei many moons ago). Anyway there was a case of someone trying to do it in the 737-200 sim at AirNZ , does the whole rating and then CAA fail to turn up for the flight test so now he's got a 737-200 rating, a CPL and a bunch of subjects, none of which he can use anywhere else. And he's out of pocket $20,000 for the type rating that he only did to get the ATPL. And all along the AirNZ Trainer is sitting through it and handing out the rating but can't give him the ATPL because the candidate's not an Air NZ employee.

Unbelievable.

But you are correct, all employers (with the full support of the CAA) have been using it as a lever, aside from Air NZ.

[DeltaT]

WOW! I've come back to read this thread and I am very impressed that people are waking up and now aware of just how f**ked NZ aviation is! Congrats to all!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well you'll all be pleased to know then that the JAA do now require a flight test for the issue of an ATPL (it was never required under the old pommie reg's).

I got away without it when I did my turboprop command upgrade a few months ago, because I was one of the very last to go through the UK licencing thing in '99 before the transition to full JAR, and hence I was upgrading a UK rather than a full JAR licence, but every pilot with a CPL/IR issued under JAR now has to do the full flight test and yes it has to be in a multi pilot certified aircraft (and that means a proper jet or big turboprop over here, you certainly can't do it in a chieftain or 421 and you can't even use a machine like a king air or a bandit, cos they're certified as single crew a/c under JAR).

If you're working for an airline then it's no problem, cos the JAA will accept a normal company IR renewal/proficiency check on your aircraft type, as adequate proof of a flight test. But if you're paying for it yourself you are going to be shelling out some serious serious coin.

Haughtney mate did you have over 500 hours operational since you got your JAR ATPL issued before you went for the conversion, or were the NZCAA not bothered about that?

[CockpitJunkie]

One previous post stated must have passed an Instrument Rating flight test in the previous year to be issued with an Australian ATP(A)L.

That is not correct. CARs state, "hold or has held" a command multi-engine instrument rating. It doesn't have to be current.

As to the flight test requirement in Australia, from November 2005 or when Part 61 comes in there will be a requirement for a flight test in a multi-crew aircraft.

This goes back to the old days when an ATPL was really for the top end of the market (as per Dept Aviation etc) and you had to be working for an airline to get one. Well it's not quite to that extent, but getting close.