impossable or just improbable

[skidkicker75]

Having spent some time now looking round PpRuNe i find that i am becoming increasingly dispondant about the chances of ever finding work within this industry, and i havnt even completed my cpl.
It seems to me that as helo pilots throught our careers we will allways be paying out of our own pockets for to get anywhere, be it type ratings, lisences for other contries or endorsments on the lisence. I am beginning that i may have choosen un-wisely by going with helos, seems fixed wing have all the benifits and none of the downs.

Dont get me wrong flying is what i have allways wanted to do since being a young lad and here i am now doing it, and i dont think that there could be any better feeling than driving a helo, but really what are the chances of ever breaking into this industry without winning the lotto?

And it p***es me off when people write about a helo costing $2million so why should a low hour pilot get to fly it. How else are we to ever get the experience if no one is willing to give us a chance?
Before doing this i was a truck driver, and i drove a rig worth quater of a million pounds, with a payload of three quaters of a million, and i was only 21 at the time, nobody batted an eyelid at that though.

So what i am really getting at is if anyone out there has any advice/stories of how they started than it maybe useful and if not useful it may be entertaining.

[the coyote]

Just believe you can mate, use spell checker, and be prepared to work hard, do the time and whatever it takes. And getting pi$$ed off isn't going to help the cause either.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Yo Sidekick


One of my very good friends was a Big Rig owner driver and fancied the Heli's, he stuck at it and is now flying Super Pumas in the North Sea, he went through hell and high water to chase his goal, including one employer who still owes him £20K plus nearly four years on, so my advice for what it is worth, Stick at it.

There is only one thing available in a rush, they normally come with no gaurantees cost you all your free dosh and need a pram!

Keep at it it will come, the job I mean!

Peter RB
Vfr;)

[Warren Buffett]

Steve76 and coyote, you both made me laugh out loud. It's odd isn't it? I know so many English people who can't write grammatically correct sentences or spell properly. What is it with the English primary and secondary school system?

[Taff Missed]

Warren,

They teach the children to spell it how it sounds or how they say it. As a result, my 12 y/o spells reference, "refrence" and cause, "caws". I can't remember the last time he came home with a spelling test as homework. Perhaps if the education system in the UK wasn't used by successive governments as a political football, the teachers and students might stand a chance.

Taff

[mike papa delta]

I would just like to say in the defence of "bad spellers"...

Although I agree that every effort should be made to spell properly (I reckon SMS and online messaging has a lot to answer for) some people cannot get it no matter how hard they try. I know several intelligent and competent people who really struggle with their spelling and have suffered prejudice throughout their lives (school and adult) along with the lack of confidence, frustration and embarrassment that this often induces.

Oh yeah, and spell checkers don't always work either - many misspelled words are actually other words spelled correctly so they don't show up. No what I mean?

Anyway, helicopters...

[MaxNg]

Skidkicker75

Keep at it, it is unfortunatly part of the process, to suceed in this industry you have to be tenacious and focused on what you really want to enable you to rise above those that arn't.

I did.

Oh and for all those smart arses out there that think being able to spell, and gramaticise is the be all and end all are just pedants.

Yes it is nice if you can spend the time and effort on such detail but this is not a CV from the guy to a prospective employer,he is just venting his dismay at his situation, and there are very few people out there that havent in thier past felt exactly the same. I know I did.

As you can see from the above spelin an stuff is not my best asset either, (I have had two spell checkers actually resiegn on me half way thruogh a letter)But as an ex underground electrician (now probably called, in todays self engratiating job title arena, Sub terrainian mineral extraction engineer) being made redundant in 1988 to a North Sea Commander earning in excess of £67K and only yet on scale 5 of 17, Flying a MK2 Supa puma modern helicopter (Nick Lappos hold your tongue) with nine years onshore Commercial VFR flying and QHI ratings to boot, spellin and stuf is not regarded by me at least a measure of your competance.

Good Hunting.

MaxNG:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Presumably the bloke who sweeps out the hangar didn't have a long and strenuous training programme, and then numerous dissapointments, so that he could work full time in aviation. Presumably he also didn't start his first aviation job penniless or in debt and feeling deeply privileged to be there nonetheless.

But, I doubt anybody else avoided it - whether it's an Engineer, Pilot or even most of the administrators (although you wonder sometimes) nobody had an easy route in.


And, whilst it's a dull mind that can only think of one way to spell a word, most of us do have a dictionary on the shelf.

G


A boy ran away to the circus. His father followed him to the next town and found him behind the big top knee-deep and mucking out the elephants. "Son", he said "please come home"; "what?" said the boy, grinning and looking around him, "and miss out on being part of all the glamour of showbusiness". Welcome to professional aviation! :}

[rotorspeed]

MaxNg

Im amazd you ha'vnt realy understood the problem. If well intensiond folk like skidkicker75 can go through all the graft to get a lisense isnt it about time the helo industry got its act together and created enuf jobs so that anywon who got a lisense could get the job they deservd. and a well payed won to.

[helicopter-redeye]

I guess you could try something else but then other parts of life are tough as well.



:uhoh:

[MaxNg]

Rotorspeed

What are you smoking !!!

I did not miss the point I mearly stated that if you want something bad enough you will find a way to get it.

and no one owes anyone a job, there is only one reason that I am getting paid well, and it's got bu**er all to do with my exceptional skills as an aviator, not evan remotly connected to my incredible good looks, not I repeat not even my charm has any influence on it.

It is supply and demand, and therefore the harder it is for people like you and me to get a foot hold on the job market the better I will get paid ;)

Sorry Skidkicker but that's life.

MaxNG:E

[Woolf]

Hey MaxNG,

Sorry can't agree with the good looks but the rest is spot on ..... :=

[HughMartin]

Sllepnig - Deos it rallley mttaer?

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it
deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are,
the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer
be at the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it
wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Amzanig huh?

[Devil 49]

Skidkicker75-
It's not impossible. Civilians do it regularly. Like learning to fly, you have to have the "it" to make "it" happen. Some do "it" and do it well.
The improbable part is something you, in particular, have to decide- for your unique situation and personality.

Analogy- when you're PIC, you're all alone when the "rubber meets the road." If you're lucky you'll hear voices, offering advice, and if you're really lucky you'll crash (or not), publicly- and make the evening news. But- you'll live or die with what *you* can do for yourself. Nobody can help you. You'll decide what's a realistic expectation, and you'd better not wish yourself to death....
Don't fool yourself now, either. If you're unsure of your ability to do this, quit now. Write it off as life enrichment and cut your losses.

I'm not an airplane driver, but my best guess is that it's no easier to get a paying seat without swinging your wings. You might hear more success stories, but that's because there's more fixed wing jobs. There's also more fixed wing pilots...
My impression is that the rate of success is about the same.

Final thought- I love my job, and have since '68. But I had no choice- I HAD to do it. If you have to ask, maybe....

[the coyote]

MaxNg,

Get your hand off it mate. Spelling isn't everything by any means, agreed. But for the most part my initial comment re spelling was serious, because it is apparent that spelling isn't his strong point, yes?

A good mate of mine is CFI and Chief Pilot and a hell of a good pilot and spelling isn't his strong point either.

Now would you give a first job to a guy who probably doesn't believe he can succeed, is pi$$ed off, with a poorly spelt CV? Every little bit counts and I thought all my advice was actually quite relevant.

And oh yeah, I've gone from Trainee Janitor to Extrastellar Teleportation Supreme Guru flying a Particle Beam Phase Shifter (Mk 3, sorry Nick) with a 15 Axis Photon Controller, with over 900 Inter Galactic Approvals, earning billions on payscale 99 of 99. So call me when you get to 17 and tell me I'm a smart arse then eh?

Jeez I love being a billionaire......:E

[Blind]

Ahhh Hugh Martin, you are indeed a clever man, it does not matter what order the letters are in but you need to have at least the correct letters in the word. Thus KwikFit is not acceptable whereas spoonerisms can be understood. If you are writing a CV you should be able to spell and punctuate.

Anyway to the guy who started this post........stick with it, I didn't get a helicopter job for 7 months then got offered 2 jobs on the same day. Now I work on the 332L with the previously mentioned Hugh.

[skidkicker75]

To all of you who have posted replys to this subject, i would like to thank you for your support and encouragement. As i said in my origonal post this is something that i have wanted to do since being a small boy and i wont be discouraged by knockbacks when i come to finding a job.
If the jobs were given to those with the most enthusiasm then i would have employers knocking down my door to offer me captain positions on super pumas or cheif test pilot for eurocoptor, but unfortunatly they dont so as many of you have said "just stick at it".
I will and one day i may be in the machine next to you!!!

To those of you that have criticized my spelling and grammar, firstly i was in quite a hurry to get to post out so did not have the time to be meticulous over spelling.
Second i wasnt aware that just by posting a thread on the site that i was being interviewed for a job or appraised on my intilect.
Third The reason i probally have trouble spelling in down to the fact that at school all i did was look out the window wondering if i would ever fly, rather than concentrating on how to spell.

And just as a by line. I have undertaken all my cpl exams out here and have not failed one. No great shakes maybe, but i self studied for all but one. Again some of you will be saying that its no big thing, however, many of my co students have sat in on the classes for each subject and are still failing them one after another, time and time again.

P.S if anybody can tell me where the spell checker is i will gladly use it.;)

[Steve76]

Skidkicker,
best to type it in Microsoft Word and use the spell check in that programme.
Coyote is very correct. If you are looking for a job with me and your CV is full of typing or spelling errors you are going to be filed in the round bin.
That is why spellchecker was invented for guys like us.
First impressions count.

[Whirlygig]

Quite seriously, I have to recruit people in my job (which isn't aviation - yet!) and the CV is the first impression that I get of that candidate.

My view is that spelling and grammar DO matter and if you have any doubt, get someone else to run their eye over your CV for any errors. You might not have a second chance.

Spelling and grammar is one issue that seems to polarize the Pprune community. However, we should accept that we all type things in a hurry and, whilst I try to be careful, the odd typo can always slip through! However, your CV should not be done in a hurry so, have an an@lly-retentive pedant such as myself, check it. If you recognise that spelling ain't your strong point, then don't feel ashamed in asking for help.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's probably not the spelling and grammar in themselves that matter - it's attention to detail.

Any aerospace company, regardless of role, needs employees - pilots, engineers, launch controllers!, whatever, with an obsessive attention to detail. That way expensive and potentially life threatening mistakes hopefully don't get made. If you can't apply that level of rigour when applying for a job, it's a fair assumption that you may not in something safety critical.

And even when posting on Pprune or sending an Email to a colleague, people will make a similar judgement I'm afraid. I certainly have been questioned or complemented before now on my Pprune posts by some quite senior people within my industry (anonymity is not what it once was!), and I know of others who have had similar ' issues ' - ask Whirlybird for example about her Helicopter AFI course and the fact that she discussed it on Pprune.

So, attention to detail is everything, and if you always act as if you were being interviewed for a job you may do yourself some favours. After a while it gets easier - but it may interest you to know that the RAF considers it important enough that they have a self-study course (called ISS, or Independent Study School) to train officers, and in particular pilots, in grammar, spelling and clear writing.

Ultimately working in aerospace is about obsessive attention to every detail.

G

[Bomber ARIS]

Amen.

[Ivor E Tower]

I have to agree with the last few posts. Attention to detail with your CV says a lot.

There`s someone who posts here almost every day (not lately however) who`s spelling and grammar left a lot to be desired. I understand that when posting comments you can sometimes slip up etc. However having received his CV it was just the same. Hence why he struggled to find his first job.

You read the CV and make an initial decision on the person with regard to appearance and grammar. That is unless you are desperate in which case you`ll take anyone with the ratings.

[skidkicker75]

many thanks for the replys guys.
As you have all stated when doing a CV its is of the upmost importance to get spelling and grammar correct. My point, however,(and this may be naieve but i am new to all this) is that this is a forum where we all come for advice and entertainment, and as such i did not believe that i would be critisised and picked up on spelling and grammar.

Now that i know, in future i will try to be a little more particular over my attention to detail. :ok:


Just as a side point my computer does not have spell check, i only have the most basic word pad on here so appologies if i have screwed up again.

My flying is better than my spelling;)

again thanks.

[UwantME2landWHERE!]

......ware as its offen bene said my spelin iz twise az gud as my flyin....:ooh: :ok:

[MaxNg]

Coyote

Your spelin aint bad but rer gramer sux

"A good mate of mine is CFI and Chief Pilot and a hell of a good pilot and spelling isn't his strong point either"

Oh and by the way

The mark 3 never had a "15 Axis Photon Controller" it was a MK14a (TSO NASA1000099x/4) to be exact.

MaxNg:E

[The Rotordog]

skidkicker75To those of you that have criticized my spelling and grammar, firstly i was in quite a hurry to get to post out so did not have the time to be meticulous over spelling.One thing you'd do well to learn about pilots is that we *never* use the excuse, "I was in a hurry and that's why I screwed up." We're a little strange that way. When we find ourselves being rushed, we deliberately try to slow things down. This carries over to our outside-the-cockpit attitudes, i.e. what's the rush in posting? Was your teacher going to catch you on an aviation website when you should have been studying Economics? Mom fixin' to yank the power plug on the computer because it's past eleven p.m.? We tend to sneer at those who use "I was rushed" as an excuse. But like I said, we're a little strange that way.Second i wasnt aware that just by posting a thread on the site that i was being interviewed for a job or appraised on my intilect....A common misconception. Dude, you are ALWAYS being appraised on your intellect in life. Always. Every time you open your mouth or put pen to paper (finger to key?). Learn it. Deal with it. Your friends/peers may not care how you speak, but they're probably not going to be hiring you for a job. From my observation, young people have a pervasive attitude that things don't matter anymore. They take cellphone calls during interviews, and think grammar, spelling, how they act, dress or whether they wear hats indoors does not matter anymore. Yes they do, buddy. Small spelling mistakes and typing errors happen to the best of us, but please do make your best effort. It'll pay off in the long run.Third The reason i probally have trouble spelling in down to the fact that at school all i did was look out the window wondering if i would ever fly, rather than concentrating on how to spell.Mistake number three. There's more to flying than just being up there, and all the wishing in the world will not make it so. Stop dreaming about it and get to work. There's lots to do.And just as a by line. I have undertaken all my cpl exams out here and have not failed one. No great shakes maybe, but i self studied for all but one. Again some of you will be saying that its no big thing, however, many of my co students have sat in on the classes for each subject and are still failing them one after another, time and time again.What you forget is that we have all passed our tests. Most of us did not have too much trouble with them, so we do consider it "no great shakes."

Sorry if all this sounds discouraging or insulting, for that's not what I've intended. Certainly a strong desire to be a pilot is a big plus, and it goes a long way. We like that. But it takes more than that. It's taken all of us a lot of (hard) work to get where we are; it didn't happen automatically. I don't know your age, so all I'll say in closing is keep at it. You'll get there eventually if it is what you truly want.

[Gomer Pylot]

Skidkicker, you're posting on a forum that is read by thousands of people around the world, and almost certainly is read by the person who will make the decision on whether to hire you. As Genghis pointed out, anonymity isn't what it once was, and if you give the impression of not paying attention, as you do here, your chances of being hired are somewhere between slim and none. This is not like being on instant messenger, talking just to your mates and using shortcuts. Here you're presenting yourself to the world and to prospective employers, whether you know it or not, and whether you intend to or not. Flying, and especially flying helicopters, demands attention to all the details, all the time, and if you can't handle that, then you won't make a good employee. Deal with it.

[skidkicker75]

as i said before i am new to all this and as such a little naive.

Now it has been made blindingly clear to me i will try to take better care in future posts.

ps rotordog i am 29 years old, and theres one thing in life i'm not affraid of is hard work, so whatever it takes and no matter how long it takes i WILL be a paid (professional) pilot.


Any other pointers that may help me in the future so i dont put my foot in my mouth again would be much appriceated.

[Gomer Pylot]

Again, pay attention to detail. I, when used as the first person singular, is always capitalized. Always. If you can't afford a word processor with a spell checker, there are several dictionaries available on the web. If you can post here, you can check your spelling. Being in a hurry, as others have said, is no excuse. Spelling is an acquired skill, and can be learned. Hovering is only one of many skills you will need to get on in the world. Before you ever get the chance to demonstrate your flying ability, you'll have to demonstrate other skills. Like it or not, fair or not, that's the way it is, and the sooner you accept it the sooner you'll have a chance at a flying job.

[SASless]

I do not care what the Resume looks like...it can be hand scribbled on cardboard.....what I do care about is how the person expresses themselves to me particularly in conversation. If the Resume (or cobbled up note if you will) arrives prior to the telephone call and the applicant has remotely the flying experience or background for the job advertised....fair dinkum. I am looking for pilots that are not afraid of work....do not mind getting their hands dirty....and consult their watch only to see if it is Opening Hours yet.

Attention to detail is good....honesty is even better....grand dispersals of bovine fecal matter loses out everytime. If all you are looking for is a short term deal to carry you over to your next good deal....say so. If you don't have the experience but are willing to do whatever it takes to earn the opportunity....say that too. If I worked for a Fortune 500 company....and all we flew around was nice suits and svelte personal assistants that would be different.....but longlinging and firefighting....spraying and other backwoods work do not call for professionally done and bound up in nice pretty booklet Resumes.

If you stand in the doorway....even in blue jeans and flannel shirt....if you are clean...your pickup is spotless...and you present yourself for what you really are....you stand a better chance than merely sending in a slick looking resume. One man's opinion....and for sure don't tell me all about your Command experience and staff qualifications from the military....

[skidkicker75]

SASless,

you sound like the kind of man i want to work for.

I dont have the eqperience, but i am willing to learn from the bottom up.

Give me a job, and i will even learn to make coffee(dont drink it myself), anything for some of the golden egg(stick time).

Well maybe i am getting ahead of myself, ought to finish my CPL first but its good to know there are people like me out there. That is not to say however that i dont look very dashing in a suit when i have to, but i am a man more used to overalls than shirt and tie!

[Warren Buffett]

Gomer, the older I get, the more interested I am in discovering why very smart people sometimes make very obvious and simple mistakes (and I don't mean errors in the cockpit).

Some years back I was appalled at the quality of written English from my UK subsidiary company. I did some research and then tried some remedial actions.

The research showed (in my subsidiary company only) that my employees who are smart but couldn't write or spell properly tend to:

1. Come from a background of attending public (GOVT funded) schools.
2. Have parents who are blue collared or see little value in excelling in education in general.
3. Not read widely themselves.

So, with the help of an English educator, we introduced evening classes, made available wonderful books that taught people how to "Write to the Point" and we provided cash incentives for tertiary schooling.

The result? Well, I found the writing and spelling standards did improve, but not remarkably. Verbosity, repetition, etc all surfaced again and again.

The conclusion I drew from all this is that if you do not educate properly right from Kindergarten to say, the 10th year of schooling the foundation to learn how to write and spell properly is generally lost forever. Of course, all this applies only to my emperical findings and no more. I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject.

Great forum on the subject of resumes versus actual personality!

[Gomer Pylot]

Warren, I think incentive has a lot to do with it. One has to want to learn to spell properly and write grammatically. Reading has more to do with it than almost anything else, I think. If you don't read, you don't learn the correct words, you only pick up what you hear, and often hear the wrong words. As one of our government programs says, 'Reading is fundamental'. If you spend your time watching TV and playing video games, you won't learn to see words, and it's far more difficult to learn later. I don't blame the schools as much as I blame parents and the general environment. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere, and there was no TV at all until I was almost out of high school. I read books to pass the time, because there was nothing else to do. Do something often enough, and you get good at it. Do it very seldom, and only when you must, and you won't be very good at it.

Probably the importance of spelling, grammar, and neatness in general is diminishing, because of the decrease in the ability of the public in general in these things. If teachers can't do it, how can the pupils be expected to learn it?

[WLM]

Education in the broad sense, our days is very different from the way it was; Some younger people cannot even have a nice hand writing, as the PC has made it easier to type. The system is also to blame as a hand written letter is almost frowned upon in the corporate world. How many people I meet that cannot count properly? It is not fair to blame parents or even may be the individual concerned. We need to protest at the Government levels and ensure that proper education is delivered, whether it is public or private. Teaching as a profession is not as flamboyant as it was, as other sectors are made more attractive or better remunerated. Certainly not our Rotary one eh eh...
So instead of spell checkers, SMS, etc, why not go back to the roots to alleviate this new generation of alien English writers.;)
Oh and yes stick to your chosen path of becoming a flyboy; It is a personal goal with sacrifices that only we Rotary boys (and Girls) can appreciate and understand. Any logical person would classify us as nearly insane as a chosen career path.
Cheers :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Spellin'? Yeh, but no, but righ' but no what i mean? Wha' is i' about yu lo' thut alluz wunts wurds spellin' right?

I mean but wot difrence dus it maek? Like wo' we is flying elis, not dickshunris, righ'?

Ol we 'as to du is ge' th' 'eli to the rite plaes on th' right day, right?

Wo' Iz the prublem? Dummin' down? No, i alluz bin this thick.

[Gomer Pylot]

SASless, I understand your attitude, but given two otherwise identical applicants, one of whom can speak and write properly, and presents a neat appearance, with a neat and proper resume, the other sloppy in appearance and written and spoken language, which would you pick? Only one position available, and all other factors equal. You don't think it makes some difference?

[Thomas coupling]

Liked the post rotordog!

If I can add just one teensy weensy thing. CV's are a good starting point, but it can never compete with showing your face and interest at the place you would like to work! Worth a thousand CV's in my experience.

[boomerangben]

Returning to the point of the original post, I was in a similar position to Skidkicker a few years ago. At the time I didn't know of Pprune and only had the guidance of other pilots I met. I don't think that the employment issue has changed dramatically over the last few years (I agree it has had it ups and downs, but it always has) but if I had realised the truth of it, I would have had the same concerns as Skidkicker. But there are self improvers out there who are flying (in the UK) as Police, corporate, offshore, SAR, utility and HEMS pilots. It can and does happen, but as you will have already gathered, your attitude is paramount, oh and never forget to keep learning.

[offshoreigor]

Steve76

How's she goin Mate? I guess your wearing the woolies by now! Its warm here in Cote d'Ivoire, too warm! Have you heard from Pooch lately?

Cheers and Merry Christmas!

:ok: OffshoreIgor :ok: