Great ATC from EINN...not

[dick badcock]

Friend of mine went in to SNN a couple of weeks ago and just before top of descent at FL350 got the brilliant message: 'Reduce to cleanspeed, you are number two!' They maintained about 220 KTS all the way down, ending up 5-6000 feet high on their profile.

Having a bit of a problem with 'all' the traffic I guess.

[BombBay]

:rolleyes:I presume that your 'friend' is as equally incapable of raising his own posts as he and his colleague on the day were of advising ATC that they were unable to accept the descent profile in question.
If you're going to knock ATC or any other service provider, at least make it your own story and something worth reading http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[Findo]

You worry too much Dick.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

[dick badcock]

Should have known that the only replies I would get to my query would be two 'know-it-all', hairsore UK ATC controllers (do you even know anything about EINN control?). Instead of whining about why my friend (who doesn't have email) doesn't post his story or why they didn't ask for a re-clearance (which they did) why don't you actually try and give us some probable reasons for this odd behavior.

[BEXIL160]

...Dick...

Well, I don't profess to be a "Know it all controller", on the contrary I probably learn something new about ATC, Flying and aviation every day.

No idea about Shannon's unusual request,which is curious to say the least but most ATC units are happy to discuss anything that happens on the phone or even face to face.

If you consider ATC be a crew "resource", as I'm lead to beleive is the case, then the chat afterwards is important for both ATC and your buddy.

Sadly not all of my / your colleagues always see it this way, but you can only try....

sigh....

BEX.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

You are a very silly twisted boy, Mr Cock..

[Bagheera]

Hogg,
if you wish you could mail me a beer! Just trying to ease your conscience!!!!

[Flanker]

Hogg
What do you fly - Sherman Tanks? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[ferris]

Every night in Oz there is a Westwind that descends from F370 at 30DME, on short final at 320kts GS. And gets off on the high-speed. Stunning.

[Late Landing]

Who was flying who - aircraft or pilot in charge? To often in this age of the aircraft 'doing it all', the art of actually getting the aircraft to do what the pilot wants it to do appears to be lost!

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My views are personal and DEFINITELY don't reflect those of my employer!

[dick badcock]

Hogg. You are obviously not a B737-500 pilot. At FL350, 46-47 tons, clean speed is about 216 KIAS, low speed buffet closer to 200 KIAS. And the speed brake on the B737? Well, I guess it increases your ROD (@220 KIAS) from 1000fpm to about 1150 fpm, it is completely useless at low speeds.

The original purpose of this post was not necessarily to tick some of you ATC guys off :), but more to find out if anything was blocking the runway or something. My co-pilot friend and his skip were never told a thing...

[need to know]

While I agree it is an unusual request it may again be a case of not having the bigger picture. It may have been the case that your friend was much further back in the arrival sequence, and was wrongly advised. At FL350 he/she would be under the control of Shannon upper control who would not be concerned with the sequence or number in the sequence. The lower airspace controllers may have requested this reduction as they would have the bigger picture of arrivals from the other upper airspace sectors as well as the lower airspace arrivals

[This message has been edited by need to know (edited 21 April 2001).]

[Attendance Monitor]

Hogg
You are my type of customer. Visit Scottish Centre in Prestwick soon, and bring your wallet with you.

[radar1]

OK Dick, I'll bite. I shouldn't, because judging by the tone of your last comment, you already have preconceived ideas about Shannon ATC, or ATC in general, but anyhow ...

You don't give too many details about the actual incident itself. I would question the accuracy of the story initally, and would be very surprised if they were told to reduce to minimum clean at FL350, but its possible. Remember that ATC'ers are not pilots and sometimes phraesology becomes different to what it actually means. While the approach controller may understand what minimum clean is, to many area controllers is may simply mean "please slow down as much as you can". In my mind, and Im not a pilot, a minimum clean request is reserved for the last few minutes of flight when you are catching the traffic ahead on final.

If your mate was told to reduce to minimum clean at FL350, then this is a silly request, and should certainly be queried. However, I would think it more likely that he was told to reduce speed as he was number 2. Sequencing at that level is more practical than you might think. If low level have decided a sequence, then they may on occasion pass the request on to high level to get the spacing in early.

Anyway, I would have thought that slowing down would allow a higher rate of descent? Seems to me that if you are told at FL350 (and hence 100+ miles out) what the sequence is, then you should be able to get the height correct.

Further, if your mate had a problem with the speed restriction, height, rate of descent, or lack of information, then open your mouth and ask. God knows most pilots are well able to speak when they want to.

Finally, if you want to learn something about ATC, pay a visit to the centre. Try to go when its busy and you might discard your attitude.

Visit Shannon (and thats EISN, not NN), on a Saturday afternoon and have a look at the Strumble sector. You'll soon see where 'all' that traffic is.

Remember, you might have your TCAS box and a pair of ears on the frequency, but you don't ever have the full picture. Try not to be so judgemental next time ...

[dick badcock]

Radar,

Thanks for a good reply! Certainly helpful ro read a post from someone with knowledge. As far as my knowledge of EISN, it is only limited to what I experience myself flying to SNN/ORK, and what I hear from fellow pilots. As far as EISN is concerned the are mostly very friendly and helpful, but do give odd clearances every now and then. I recall one time we came in from Strumble, were asked to slow down during descent, then asked to speed up, slow down again and speed up again. We found ourselves screaming down at 280 knots with gear down. Well, because of terrain to the northeast of EINN, we needed to slow down to avoid GPWS warnings and ended up doing a 360 over TULLA (IAF for ILS24) in order to get down. I do not know, but I have heard that Irish controllers (new cadets) do training in EISN, so maybe this was why?

As for knowing anyone in the trade, my best friend works tower and radar at ENBR, so anytime I have ATC queries, I try to ask him first! :)

On a different topic, I would like to take my hat off to the controllers at EGKK! Most efficient and service oriented bunch of the lot!

[need to know]

Hey Big Baddock, or whatever your name is. This is a genuine enquiry. What is the top speed on a modern jet that you can fly with gear deployed? I don't know what you fly but would be interested to hear.

[fweeeeep]

Hey bid baddog,

I think you are a hoax.

Not a nice thing to say I know, but what the heck.

Fweeeeep

[dick badcock]

Need to know,

On the B737, the max extension speed is 270KIAS/0.82M, max speed with gear extended is 320KIAS/0.82M, and max speed for taking it back in again is 235 KIAS

Weeeeeeeny,

No I am not a pilot, I just ammended my B737 operations manual yesterday for the heck of it; I am such an aerosexual I actually went and bought the AFM so I could be a cool wannabe! ;)