Flow control from NYO

[Rocco in Budapest]

Have recently not been allowed to leave NYO due to some dubious interpretation on behalf of local ATC on when a scheduled flight can be released if they are planning to depart ahead of schedule. Now, there are no slots or restrictions on the flight however the tower controler tells us we cannot taxi until scheduled take-off time minus 15 min? They told us to have the plan refiled if we wanted to get away earlier! Please tell me these guys are gravely misunderstanding the situation and have taken it upon themselves of providing flow control for the rest of the world because never in my 20 years experience have I heard of such utter nonsense?!

[rodan]

Sounds about right to me. Someone with a greater command of the documents will be along to quote the chapter and verse to you, I'm sure, but it sounds like the misunderstanding is on your part, not theirs.

[routechecker]

http://aip.lfv.se/3AIP-ENR/ENR1/ES_ENR_1_10_en.pdf will take you to the Swedish e-Aip.
Check out para 1.10.5.2 Changes to a flight plan; if you plan to leave more than 15 minutes prior to EOBT, they acctually want you to cancel and refile. :ugh: :ugh:

Cheers:ok:

[msi]

If you look at the documents at
http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/ you will find this information:

It is a requirement for both ATC and ATFCM, that the EOBT of a flight shall be an accurate EOBT. This applies to all flights,whether subject to a flow management regulation or not. Any change to the EOBT of more than 15 minutes for any IFR flight within the FPM distribution area (see Annex 1 for details) shall be communicated to the IFPS.

And the reason is of course that all slots are calculated on the EOBT that you have filed. So if you don´t follow your EOBT, how shall the system know if you need to be under flowregulation or not ?

[Rocco in Budapest]

It is a requirement for both ATC and ATFCM, that the EOBT of a flight shall be an accurate EOBT. This applies to all flights,whether subject to a flow management regulation or not. Any change to the EOBT of more than 15 minutes for any IFR flight within the FPM distribution area (see Annex 1 for details) shall be communicated to the IFPS

Ok, so slots are based on EBOT which has to be accurate within 15 minutes, makes perfect sense. However, I have been late off blocks by more than 15 min more often than I care to remember and never have I had to cancel and refile (unless of course the flight plan had expired). So I gather from the previous reply that in cases of delays og +15 min the following will happen:

"Any change to the EOBT of more than 15 minutes for any IFR flight within the FPM distribution area (see Annex 1 for details) shall be communicated to the IFPS

Wouldn´t that "communication to the IFPS" take place if an a/c wanted to depart +15 min ahead of its EOBT just like it would in the case of a delay of +15 min?

Routechecker,
Looking as 1.10.5.2, it lists a few items that if changed would need you to cancel and refile one of them being a departure of +15 min prior to EOBT. However, according to 1.10.5.3: in the case of an IFR flight a change in he EOBT (+/-) greater than 15 min shall be reported to FPC, ATS, or IFPS. Seems a bit ambiguous.

Also, just want to say that this is very enlightening. Good to get feedback. Thanks for the replys.

[Gonzo]

This is a recent change, so that's why you've never had to do it before.

If you want to depart earlier than -15 minutes, you need to cancel and refile, but if you want to depart after +15 minutes, then you send a 'Delay' message.

[cessnalee]

hi there...

CAMU have just receintly introduced DEP and ARR slots to all the international airports here in SA. if a flt is from one international to another and the pilot calls early we are not allowed to approve start until it is within that particular slot due to the destination working on arrival slots.
if the pilot wants to leave early then a new FPL has to be filed in order to receive a new DEP and ARR slot.
the only other way out is to cancel IFR and go VFR,which is a no go zone for airliners.

[DFC]

Unfortunately, the flight plan system has not quite kept up with the times. It should be possible to submit a change message to bring forward an EOBT.

That would get rid of the long winded cancelation, wait and re-file system we have currently which causes problems for everyone.

The +/- 15 minutes is correct but within 30 minutes of the filed EOBT, we deal with ATC who make any required changes to flight plans and slots........because we are in the aircraft not in the briefing room.

Thus, if the pax turns up 15 minutes early and we don't have a slot restriction, we tell ATC and it is up to them to make the required changes since it is now within 30 minues of the EOBT. Never had a problem yet!

Don't tell anyone that we got a direct last week that cut almost 15 minutes off our route time............shock horror, perhaps we should have refiled and got a slot so that we did not arrive early in some sector and cause an overload! ;)

Regards,

DFC

[PPRuNe Radar]

Don't tell anyone that we got a direct last week that cut almost 15 minutes off our route time............shock horror, perhaps we should have refiled and got a slot so that we did not arrive early in some sector and cause an overload!

Don't worry. You would be named and shamed in the subsequent CFMU overload report ;)

[squibbler]

Thus, if the pax turns up 15 minutes early and we don't have a slot restriction, we tell ATC and it is up to them to make the required changes since it is now within 30 minues of the EOBT. Never had a problem yet!

I think you're being a bit presumptious DFC. We may be able to assist you ;)

8.6 ATC assistance to Aircraft Operators
8.6.1 UK aerodromes may be able to assist Aircraft Operators in message exchange with the CEU, provided that the pilot is in
RTF contact with the TWR and if:
(a) it is a maximum of 30 mins prior to current CTOT; and
(b) the revision to the CTOT is for no more than 30 minutes.

Never had a problem yet? There's always a first time.....................:E

[prospero]

Gentlemen
Without combing the books ad infinitum I believe the reason for the 15 mins cancel/refile parameter is to keep in line with ICAO guidelines as opposed to some arbitrary Eurocontrol restriction.
It is very rarely a problem and if it is,give the CFMU a call and we should be able to sort something out. We don't bite (Well ok some of us do ;)
As for the direct routes we can see you and our system makes adjustments to compensate.It is not a problem!!!
The only things that get on our t*ts are when an airport requires a regulation and then lets everyone go outside slot tolerances, it kinda defeats the object (And please don't flame me with justifications, I was a tower controller for long enough to know why it happens ;) ).
The other thing is Operators who don't update Off Block Times; when this happens we have no idea what your required take off time really is so therefore we can't improve your slot!!!
Best Regards
Prospero
Brussels
The Millwall of the aviation world............

[DFC]

squibbler,

Indeed I will wait for the first time that my announcement goes something like -

"welcome aboard....we have no ATC delay but the Tower are holding us anyway so we will not be departing for another hour"..............

.........followed 20 minutes later by "we have spoken to the Tower and have finally managed to arrange our departure at the original time".

Perhaps sir blue chip will give sir CAA a call on the satphone once airbourne! :D

Regards,

DFC

[flowman]

According to ICAO documentation the FPL is valid +30 minutes (no minus value).

"In the event of a delay of 30 minutes in excess of the estimated off blocks time (for a controlled flight) the flight plan should be amended or a new flight plan submitted".

As has been aluded to by previous posters, a flight departing earlier will not have been checked for restrictions along the filed route. Not just ATC/Flow restrictions, but route closures, military activity, etc.

There are also ATC systems to consider, often the data on early flights will not be displayed in front of the controller. There are others better qualified to fill in the numbers applying in this instance but this might explain the -15 minutes parameter.

As has also been stated, a call to the tower controller can (at his/her discretion) result in a Ready (REA) message being sent which can bring forward the EOBT by up to 30 minutes.

DFC you say: "Unfortunately, the flight plan system has not quite kept up with the times. It should be possible to submit a change message to bring forward an EOBT. "
This used to be possible. It was stopped because some operators were using this facility as a means to "cheat" the system by repeatedly updating EOBTs backwards until the slot matched the required departure time.


flowman

[Turn It Off]

The +/- 15 minutes is correct but within 30 minutes of the filed EOBT, we deal with ATC who make any required changes to flight plans and slots........because we are in the aircraft not in the briefing room.

Unfortunately, our unit instructions states quite to the contrary. Whether this is line with the AIC that covered the matter I have not checked. Our instruction states that any deviance from the 15 minute tolerances is to be referred back to the pilot / handling agent / operating company to refile / send delay messages; unless the delay is caused due to airfield holding.

Anyone who calls me for a change will be / is told that they need to speak to company / handling agent. I would love to help and am able to do it myself but, when a completely un related incident happens 1 hour later, and the board find i dealt with it well, they will instead pull the extra assistance I offered to a frew who called at EOBT +16 out and slap me around the face for not following procedures.

In this non blame culture you must do everything by the book, otherwise you're screwed.

TIO

[DFC]

Flowman,

It was stopped because some operators were using this facility as a means to "cheat" the system by repeatedly updating EOBTs backwards until the slot matched the required departure time.

If the system says that no aircraft can depart at say 1500 on a route to XYZ and consequently issues a slot time of 1600, please explain to me how moving the EOBT back will result eventually in a slot of 1500?..........

To my understanding of the system, in this case the system says that 1500 is not available as a departure time for that route and thus will not issue 1500 as a slot time no matter what the EOBT?

Perhaps making the EBOT 1400 would get a slot of 1455 and perhaps the flight could make that but provided that the system is manipulated and a slot time obtained and obeyed, where is the problem? Is it a problem with computing power i.e. too many requests overloading the system?

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Turn It Off,

So if I am in my aircraft on the ramp and thus no longer able to access the telephone or terminal in the Flight Briefing Unit, you are going to simply say "hey buddy, call back the bus, take 30 minutes to get back to the FBU, send your message, get an ack/slot and get the bus back to the aircraft".........whereupon I am now back at the aircraft 30 minutes after my original EOBT.

Perhaps the board would also haul you over the coals for providing an expedited routing or passing the weather to someone who asks.

Being too busy to do it is totally understandable. Not proving the service on a routine basis smells of laziness :YUK:

Bet your customers just love the value removed service!

What airport do you work at?

Regards,

DFC

[squibbler]

DFC you are making a mountain out of a molehill - again!

So if I am in my aircraft on the ramp and thus no longer able to access the telephone or terminal in the Flight Briefing Unit, you are going to simply say "hey buddy, call back the bus, take 30 minutes to get back to the FBU, send your message, get an ack/slot and get the bus back to the aircraft".........whereupon I am now back at the aircraft 30 minutes after my original EOBT.

You just call your handling agent / company on box2 (or mobile phone etc...you get the idea) and tell them to send the necessary messages on your behalf. Look - it's that easy :ooh:

It quite clearly explained where our respective responsibilities lie here: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4Y146.PDF

Not doing your work for you on a regular basis is not being lazy. Do it for one you might as well do it for all and that kind of undermines the whole point of allocating responsibilities.

[flowman]

DFC

If you really want a lesson in slot allocation procedures I am quite happy to give it. Not very interesting, but since you asked:

Slots are allocated when a regulation is created on the basis of first come first served. So if X estimates entering the regulated area at 1000 and Y estimates at 1001, X gets the first available slot and Y gets the second. If the rate for the regulation is 10/60 then X will get 1000 and Y will get 1006.

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You ask: "If the system says that no aircraft can depart at say 1500 on a route to XYZ and consequently issues a slot time of 1600, please explain to me how moving the EOBT back will result eventually in a slot of 1500?.........."
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Up to EOBT -2 hours the slots are pre-allocated. No slot is sent, and the slots are changeable. If a new FPL arrives or if one is modified that estimates the regulated area before another flight, then it will be placed in the earlier slot and the later flight will move down the slot list. That's how a flight will move up a slot list in the manner you describe above.

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What's the problem?
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Well the problem is that the flight now shows a delay, which is not in fact a delay. We here at Flow are constantly sifting through slot lists to reduce delays as much as possible. That is what you want us to do. We could work for up to 30 minutes on the most complex solutions only to find we have completely wasted our time fixing a delay that was fictitious. That is 30 minutes that could have been spent helping somebody else. That's the problem!

There is no problem with the computing power of the system.

flowman

[Turn It Off]

DFC,

I do everything I can to make sure everyone gets the best service I can possibly offer. I do my very best to help everyone out, unfortunately, in todays climate, I seem to have to spend more time covering my backside than I do helping you drivers out.

Everyone I work with knows I do my upmost to push every gap available and get you guys in the air as quickly as possible. The unit I work at is irrelevant.

I will always help a pilot where I can, unfortunately, it seems that all the CAA want to do is, from every investigation, to blame something on an ATCO, whether their findings are as a result of the incident being investigated or not - And that was really the point of my posting - Somewhat off thread for which I apologise.

As far as EOBT goes, the Instruction states that unless any delay received is due to on airfield holding that it is the responsibility of the aircraft operator / handling agent to send a delay message.

Thems is the rules, not much I can do about them.

Regards

TIO

[DFC]

Flowman,

Thanks for the explanation.

I guess that the same thing could be done by say changing the speed so that the aircraft reached the regulation point earlier.

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TIO,

The local orders at your station and the AIC posted by squibbler, don't totally tie in with the AIP.

However, having spoken to a person who seems to know how to weasle out of every slot restriction, they suggested that one can depart at 15min prior to the planned EOBT without any requirement, furthermore, ATC has a window within which they can let you go if it suits local traffic and that brings us back to 20min prior to EOBT.........so taking a slow start and slow taxi, one can have an actual off blocks time 30 min before the planned one without having to do anything.

They also said there is no point in going throught he handling agent in most places. Far better to ring the appropriate Flow control desk with the number in the AIP. When they ask why you rang, say ATC are to busy to make the call :)

Regards,

DFC

[flower]

AS TIO says, we have very strict instructions of plus or minus 15 minutes.
Other airports due to taxi restrictions and length of time to the hold may have slightly different but our instructions are clear, we must only start up within the 15 minutes either side of the EOBT.
So far it has caused us little problem , I had expected a far greater difficulty but apart from the first few days with people getting used to the new procedure it now seems to work well.