G-info

[Jucky]

I complained to the CAA the other day about the G-INFO database on the net. My complaint is that anybody can go on the net type in my registration or my name and get my home address. I am not happy about this at all. The CAA's answer was that I should get a PO Box address or get my mail sent elsewhere! I asked them where they stood in relation to the Data Protection Act and they told me that the ANO superseded it. I don't mind people finding my name or aircraft registration, but I strongly object to people needing to know my home address. Who needs to know this information anyway?

My reason for this post is to guage other aircraft owners opinions on this issue.

Regards,

Jucky

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

The reason for needing an address is so that airports can charge you landing fees if someone in your plane goes into an airport and runs off without paying landing fees/parking fees etc.

There are probably many other reasons thats the way i say it

[Jucky]

Surely G-INFO should be restricted to people who need to see it. Such as aircraft owners/operators or airfield operators. The site should should register the details of the people wanting this information, and also charge people for the privilege of using it. Why should any Tom, Dick or Harry have access to this information?

[PPRuNe Radar]

The site should should register the details of the people wanting this information, and also charge people for the privilege of using it.

When we take SAR action or are trying to locate a lost aircraft, or perhaps inform someone that there has been an air accident, we often use this information to find out more detail, or hopefully maybe establish that all is well and the pilot has landed somewhere safely.

And we should have to pay for this information ??? :hmm:

[Squadgy]

I can find reference in the ANO to the register being maintained, but nothing related to the right making it available to any person to inspect. However the application form to register an aircraft states :

The UK register of Civil Aircraft is available to the public, including via the CAA website, and includes the names and addresses or registered owners of aircraft.

I don't know how this fits in with the Data Protection Act, but it does seem a little strange that the public can go online and get the address of the owner of an aircraft, when a similar tool does not exist for someone interested in knowing the owner of a car.

Agree with the above post though and think that the info should be available quickly and easily to those who need it such as ATSUs and airfield operators.

[Jucky]

The authorities who would be iniating SAR action would be able to get that sort of information without having to go on G-INFO.

Basically the people who need to see it should be registered to use it. Anybodyelse who wants to see it should pay for it and have their details registered with the CAA.

How do you know who is looking up your details? Does this not cause concern?

[PPRuNe Radar]

The authorities who would be iniating SAR action would be able to get that sort of information without having to go on G-INFO.

There is only one source of that information. G-INFO (provided by the CAA). You ever tried to get hold of someone at the CAA to provide you with data at 3am ??

I wouldn't have a problem with basic data only being publicly available (e.g. without contact details), however there are a wide range of people and companies who do need full access on an H24 basis.

What difference would paying make ?? The information is already paid for by everyone in aviation or indeed members of the public at large who contribute to the CAA in any way shape or form. If the service raised funds would you expect CAA charges to drop accordingly ?? I wouldn't hold my breath :)

[Jucky]

What did they do before G-INFO if they needed this information at 3am in a SAR situation? Do you honestly belive the police will be looking up G-INFO on the internet to get this information? I don't think so!
I know these details have been available in books long before G-INFO came along, but it just seem too easy to access this personal information. After all you have to register to get a person's details from their vehicle registrations, why should it be any different for an aircraft?

[PPRuNe Radar]

I deal with such incidents Jucky. I'll leave it at that since you don't want to listen.

[Jucky]

I have valid security reasons for being opposed to unresitricted access of G-INFO.
I have no problem with those who need to know getting my details, but why does everybodyelse need to know my home address? I have spent years keeping my address out of the public domain, and now with a couple of clicks you can find it.

[HiSpeedTape]

I find it incredibly useful for finding out who's been hot dogging overhead your house (in an AIAA) below 200'. Or who has been circling overhead incessantly on a sunny Sunday afternoon, taking photographs which they then come and knock on your door and try to sell you (usually on a sunny Sunday afternoon).
If the aforementioned scenarios do not apply to you then you have no need to worry about the consequences.

[Aussie Andy]

Jucky:I have valid security reasons for being opposed to unresitricted access of G-INFO.What would be an example of a valid security reason? I am struggling to magine how my security would be threatened by publication of my address? Privacy is another thing, but you say security?

Andy

[Jucky]

I'm not prepared to explain why it has security implications. Unless you are, or have been in my situation you won't be able to understand the security threat that this poses.

[HiSpeedTape]

Jucky

To do that they'd have to know your aircraft reg. If they know that they could just as easily mount a surveillance or covertly follow you home. Of course they could just type your surname into the owner field and see what pops up but if they are that determined they could just as easily pop in and have a look at the electoral roll or glean the information from any number of other sources which we won't discuss here. Suffice it to say that G-INFO is only one of a myriad of places where a determined person could find your address from.

Edited at Jucky's request

[BRL]

In Liverpool they watch your plane through a powerfull pair of binoculars flying overhead. Note the reg, go to the public library computer and get your address, go round and rob your house..... ;)

[MLS-12D]

For whatever it may be worth, unrestricted on-line access to aircraft registation information, including owners' names and addresses, is also the norm in Canada (http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/activepages/ccarcs/en/current_e.asp#quick?x_lang=e) and the USA (http://registry.faa.gov/arquery.asp).

I have valid security reasons for being opposed to unresitricted access of G-INFO.... I'm not prepared to explain why it has security implications. Unless you are, or have been in my situation you won't be able to understand the security threat that this poses. Hardly a compelling argument (tantamount to "just trust me on this").

G-INFO is only one of a myriad of places where a determined person could find your address from.Yes; very true.

I don't know how this fits in with the Data Protection Act, but it does seem a little strange that the public can go online and get the address of the owner of an aircraft, when a similar tool does not exist for someone interested in knowing the owner of a car.I think this is a valid comment. My law office has on-line access to vehicle registration / driver license information, but our usage is subject to a written code of conduct (which we all had to sign), and spot audits.

I find it incredibly useful for finding out who's been hot dogging overhead your house (in an AIAA) below 200'.I'm not sure that this is much of a justification for public access. If you believe that someone is violating the regulations in a non-trivial manner, I'd suggest that the appropriate thing to do is lodge a complaint with the CAA, not call up the aircraft's owner directly.

A more benign use of the public database is to help you find people who own aircraft of a type that you're interested in purchasing. If you approach such people in a respectful manner, quite often they are very happy to discuss their ownership experience, show you their airplane, and take you for a familiarization flight.

[Aussie Andy]

I'm not prepared to explain why it has security implications Secret squirrel eh!

[jabberwok]

Prior to G-INFO the aircraft data used to be published in a large volume called Bureau Veritas (probably still is). Most airports had these and although Joe Public could buy them the price would have put most off.

The data has always been publically available. All G-INFO has done is make it much easier to access..

I'll admit that I would have preferred to see G-INFO at least a subscribed service like the AIP..

jb

[BEagle]

If the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority restricts access to the identity of individual Vehicle Index Numbers to those who have a legitimate need, why does this not equally apply to aircraft registrations?

Why one rule for a/c and another for cars?

[IO540]

I think the CAA should at least maintain a separate "bulk mailing" address for the stuff they send out e.g., GASIL. I did ask and they said they can't.

It is easy enough to give them an address which affords the aircraft owner some privacy, but the single-address limitation means whatever address one gives them will have to pass on all the stuff.

Occassionally one receives (to the same single address) an invoice from some far away airport for some landing or parking fee which they allege (almost certainly incorrectly) was unpaid during a visit a year ago....

[robin]

examples of people who shouldn't have home addresses easily available might be forces personnel, police officers, teachers, social workers, prison staff, spies or battered wives/husbands. I'm sure the CSA might be very interested in this too.

This isn't necessarily a matter of privacy, but can be a matter of personal safety

We were never asked for the required permission to have this in the public domain, and I guess CAA are in breach of data protection

[Ludwig]

Jucky, if the security of your address is so vital to you why did you put it on the registration form anyway. I would have thought you would have everything registered to a "safe" address.

[Aussie Andy]

This isn't necessarily a matter of privacy, but can be a matter of personal safety So are these cases left off the electoral roll then?

And if it is so critical, then couldn't you use a PO box or a perhaps commercial mail forwarding service such as http://www.mbeuk.com/mailboxtop.htm for example?

[Mariner9]

You don't need to know the aircraft reg to search for an owner's address - the database can also be searched on owner's name.

However the CAA aircraft registration application form does contain a warning that owner's addresses will be available in the public domain. By signing the form, you obviously agree to this.

Can't say I was completely happy with this, but signed nevertheless.

In the PFA monthly mag, you often see new projects listed as "name and address withheld". Don't see the point really - the info can easily be obtained from G-INFO.

M9

[Rallye Driver]

A mate of mine, who used to park overnight occasionally at Denham, once received a letter from a supposedly aggrieved local who claimed he had been flying low over his house.

It subsequently turned out this character was systematically doing this to any aircraft where he could identify the reg - a typically NIMBY-ish form of harrassment.

The CAA had to threaten him with prosecution because the aircraft he was "complaining" about were quite legitimately taking off and landing. They argued that putting pilots under unecessary additional pressure or causing them to deviate from a normal flight profile could possibly lead to an accident.

Personally, I think the best way would be to have to register a legitimate interest - like you do for the Met Office and AIS web sites.

As things stand there is certainly scope for people to create mischief from G-INFO, if they so desire.

RD

[Davidt]

Jucky,

Simple answer to your dilema

Register your plane in the name of a Ltd Co in which you own all the shares.

The co's registered office address could be for example an Accountants Office, that is what would appear on g-info.

You can hide your shareholding and directorship with nominees.
Your company can opperate at break even, so abreviated returns wont cost much.

Will cost but if your anonimity is so important isnt it worth it?

Put it on N reg and it goes into a trust as a matter of course.

Dont you think you should have kept quiet there are probably a hundred nosey bu**ers out there now deperate to asuage their curiosity and find out who you are:\

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Roll on the Freedom of Information Act. You aint seen nothing yet!

[formationfoto]

J
My guess is that anyone who has valid reason to be concerned about identification for security purposes also has the ability to register an aircraft through a trustee or limited company with a nominee account. In fact quite surprised that given such concern you were not advised to do this by those who have created your need to remain secure (or your advisors).

Is it sensible or not?. On balance I think I would prefer not to have my name and address on a public database but I also recognise that anyone who really wants to find my address will do so through a number of different means including Google and other serach engines so I find it difficult to get too hot and bothered about the CAA placing my address on their database.

It does mean that members of the public who don't like me flying over their house might just pay me a visit and persuade me not to do it again but If anyone raneg my local flying club they would no doubt be told who the pilot was anyway and a few questions in the village would soon track me down.

[IO540]

Aussie Andy - yes indeed, such people can apply for an exemption from the electoral roll and from the requirement to give real addresses on Companies House info.

I think the real hassle about G-INFO is that the CAA won't maintain a separate "correspondence" address. This means that anyone using the accountant's address (as is obvious if using a ltd. co.) will end up hassling his accountant with a load of mail, some from the CAA, some bulk mail from CAA-related mailshots, some letters from people who want to rent your plane, some bills from foreign airports one went to years previously for allegedly unpaid landing fees, and perhaps some NIMBY stuff. Same happens if using a mate's address, or whatever.

Actually one would be amazed just doing a google on one's reg. Thanks to so many people not having a life, the movements of some planes (including N-reg ones, of course) are well logged....

[Big Hilly]

In Switzerland they have a similar system but with people's car registrations - you look up the car reg and you get the owners name and address. Seems 'road-rage' incidents are very low there. . .

I don't have a problem with G-INFO. There is, perhaps, an argument that it should be restricted to registered users (as in the the AIS website or the MET office site) but at the end of the day it's a very useful tool. I can think of more than one incident on these boards where it has been used to great effect in order to contact and have a quiet word with someone who was doing something 'rather silly' rather than go through the official channels. . .

BH

[IO540]

I suspect the reason for a lot less road rage in Switzerland might be the ease of obtaining a license for a handgun. Gun possession is very common. There isn't much road rage in the USA, either. An armed society is indeed a polite society.

Not suggesting an argument in favour of blanket handing out of FACs of course :O

[aiglon]

Have all those objecting to their address being available on G-INFO gone ex-directory? Because if you haven't, you will be horrified to know that the directory listing will include your name and address :eek: - plus your phone number :eek: - and it is available on-line :eek: :eek:

Aiglon

[MLS-12D]

There isn't much road rage in the USA, either. An armed society is indeed a polite society.That may be your experience but it hasn't been mine; and I speak as a frequent visitor to the USA (I've never been to Switzerland).

[capt.sparrow]

Of course, no one knew it was your home address. They do now as some one has pointed it out on the internet. I hope pprune has registered users..........:p

[Squadgy]

Looks like someone in the CAA has been reading the thread ! Have a look at the G-INFO website - some aircraft now do not have the ownership info displayed.

Take for instance G-ANTE - no ownership info shown whilst G-IIII does.

Don't know what criteria has been used, but at a guess perhaps all those that were registered/reregistered before G-INFO was launched aren't now shown ??

[cblinton@blueyonder.]

Just looked up mine and seems they have removed my name and address?

Does that mean I no longer own it?
If so I stole an aeroplane today:confused:

[Flap40]

Strangely the name and address details have disappeared from one of my two aircraft but not the other!

[cubflyer]

It seems that my address info has disappeared too, although a search of a few other registrations sees some still with the info. I hope this is a temporary problem as I often find this information very useful.
And I cant say Ive had any junk mail or security threats due to my data being available on line! This argument seems to come up every year on various bulletin boards when someone with something to hide suddenly discovers that his information has been available on G-info for years! By the way the Bureau Veritas book is still published and I belive you can subscribe to their service too.

[Flash0710]

Big Hilly,

In your world of smoke mirrors and championing. Surely you have only used g-info in your crusade to annoy people.

F.:E

We may also like to think about the small minorty of people who take matches to annoying aeroplanes in their locality. Nowadays who is to say they will leave it with just the plane?

[stiknruda]

Amazing - my address has dissapeared on one aeroplane I own but remains on my latest acquisition!

Stik

[vintage ATCO]

The MI5 intervention worked then . . . ;)

:D:D

[Big Hilly]

Flash,

In your world of smoke mirrors and championing. Surely you have only used g-info in your crusade to annoy people. It has been known. . . Am working on busting a landing fees scam at the mo, I guess it could be useful. . .

BH :E

[J.A.F.O.]

I've just checked G-INFO and I don't seem to own my aeroplane any more; if only there was some online resource giving me the name and address of the owner then I could ask to borrow it back.

[Whirlybird]

I only just found this thread, and a few thoughts come to mind....

Maybe it's lucky for the CAA that aviation is so male orientated. Everyone seems to intuitively understand that women, especially those living alone, might not want all and sundry to have access to their addresses. I can see it now - young blonde female gets out of her aeroplane, is chatted up by local yobbish spotter, and rebuffs him. He takes the reg, looks it up on G-INFO, and goes round to her house at dead of night..... :eek: :( (And yes, he could have followed her car, or looked her up some other way, but her name's Jane Smith and it would have been a lot harder.)

Oh dear, CAA, I think the media would love that one!!!!

But seriously, people have a right to a certain amount of privacy, for any reason, or no reason. We can go ex-directory. Why can't we ask to be "ex-directory" on G-INFO?

[cubflyer]

Whirlybird, you do have a great imagination! You might have only just caught up with this thread, but the information has been available for years. 3 or 4 years on G-info and before that by telephone or by going to the CAA library or in the Bureau Veritas book, now CD- this has all the information for 40 or 50 countries I think.
So nothing has happend yet and nothing likely to happen, so those few paranoid people with all the theories better find something else to get paranoid about!

Anyway the good news is that it all seems to be back to normal now

[TheKentishFledgling]

How weird...looked yesterday morning after hearing rumors that the addresses had gone, and thus was the case for some a/c, but not all.

As stik said, some owners were listed for one of their machines, but not the other.

All back now, so must have been a DB glitch somewhere at the CAA's end!

tKF

[J.A.F.O.]

I've got my aeroplane back, too.

G-INFO is very useful for those of us having senior moments, if we can't remember where we live then we just type our reg into G-INFO and instantly know where home is.

[Vladivar Smirnoff]

Jucky:

I have spoken to "M" & Miss Moneypenny. They both agree if you tell us the reasons for the security problem "Q" will provide the neccessary equipment, and James B (AKA 007)will watch your back. Sorted then.

[Big Hilly]

With respect, cubflyer, and putting aside the issue of G-INFO for a moment, I think you dismissed Whirly's concerns rather too flippantly. It is easy for us big, hairy-ar$ed males to overlook quite how vulnerable single females can feel about their privacy.

I was reminded of this recently when Mrs Big Hilly (a young, blonde female) went to our local video rental shop (the big high street chain) to hire a DVD. When you hand over your membership card they ask you to "confirm your name and address", which she duly did, got the DVD and drove home. About an hour later, there was a knock on the door and there was a man who had been standing next to her in the queue at the video shop who announced “all right, darlin’, do you fancy goin out for a drink wiv me?” Clearly, he had overheard her giving out her address and decided that he’d try his chances. Luckily, I was home and so came to the door when she called me BUT, it could have been a whole lot worse. . . . .

BH