Crossing Red Stopbars

[Zulu]

Question for you tower boys & girls - especially at MAN.

When given "cross RWY 24R at F1" or indeed any taxy instructions, but the red stop bars remain illuminated, what takes precedent...the taxy instructions, or the stop bar?

Sometimes you get told "ignore stop bars, they are on test". Often it is the (ATSA?) not flipping the lights to green/yellow.

Should we be querying the stop bars everytime?

[Spotter]

I'm happy for you to question me any time I don't change the stopbar to green when I should have.

1...If everyone keeps on at me I might get it right someday.

2...It's possible that one of us has radio problems & you haven't heard me countermand the line up/take off clearance.

Here's a question for you pilots...On receiving an "after the landing whizjet line up & wait" would you prefer the greens as soon as you read it back correctly, or as the landing a/c is passing you.

[form49]

If it's red don't cross it, just a quick "we've got a red stopbar" will work miracles, it will either instantly change to green or you'll get told to hold position.
Safety is the name of the game and at the end of the day mistakes can be made, we certainly won't begrudge you asking us!!!

As for the conditional, providing it's been read back correctly I have no problem giving a green, providing I'm satisied it will work with another at 6 miles, if not, it's a red stopbar and "be ready immediate" followed bu a green after the lander has passed.

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Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[ATCO Two]

In my humble opinion this is dangerous talk. A pilot should NEVER cross a red stop bar unless he has been told by the controller that it is faulty. He may query its presence, but it is poor airmanship to cross it. There may be a number of valid reasons why the stop bar is still illuminated. After all you don't proceed when the traffic lights are red do you? Secondly, a line up route should NEVER be selected onto an active runway until it is safe for an aircraft to follow it, irrespective of any conditional clearance that has been issued. The controller should wait until any conflicting landing traffic has passed before selecting the route. Getting into the habit of operating the lights correctly will stand you in good stead for low visibility operations. Also consider foreign pilots, who might not clearly understand the situation. I say again, do not cross red stopbars unless you have been specifically cleared to do so. If you do, then there is no point in them being there in the first place!

[ojt...aye]

atco two ....agree with you that bars should NOT be crossed .....however if I clear an aircraft to the cat one hold and there is no stop bar at that position ...do I switch the lights off...or put on the cat2 /3 hold stopbar after he has passed ??..or do I trust the pilots can read the holding signage and let them continue to the unlit holding point ??? and as there would be no visibility problem in cat 1 conditions why not have the lead on lights selected with a conditional line up ??

[ATCO Two]

ojt..aye,

Not sure of the system you have at your airport. The failsafe way of doing things would be to select the lead on lights as the landing aircraft was crossing the touchdown zone adjacent to the holding point. I don't agree that a lead on curve should be selected onto a live runway in front of a landing aircraft, whatever the circumstances.

[U R NumberOne]

With you 100% on this one ATCO Two. It is a total safety issue and for all I hate having pilots point out I've made a mistake (even a small one like leaving the stop bar on), I'd rather they did that than crossed it.

As for putting the lead-on lights with a conditional line-up clearance with one on short final - one problem I take into account is the crew of the landing aircraft are going to have their view of the runway changed and when on short final particularly in challenging weather conditions, I don't really consider that fair play. In the past I've been asked to confirm the runway is clear as there are some lights half way down - the response is "they're just the lead-offs", but if that sort of thing goes through a pilot's mind, I don't want to confuse the issue by having the green lights come on at a very late stage of the approach.

[cossack]

Zulu
As a MAN ATCO I can sympathise with your concerns over the number of "rogue reds" you may be experiencing at the moment. There are a couple of reasons for this.

1 A new lighting system which is suffering from a few teething problems which are being attended to as a matter of great urgency necessitating stop bar illumination out of ATC control; and

2 Controllers coming to terms with a great number of changes both procedural and equipment in one go.

As we become more familiar with all the new rules and regulations that have been applied to operations at MAN, I am certain that the previous high standards of flow and expedition will return.

The stop-bars you refer to at D1, F1, G1 and H1 for crossing to 24L do have a time delay in them (not deliberate I am sure) and a strange habit of illuminating the greens in sequence from the south towards you rather than all at once or away from you. Again I am sure this will all be ironed out.

If you do come across a red stop bar - STOP and clarify. I certainly try to see if any "rogue-reds" are up on your route and give specific instructions to cross them. Whenever lighting work is in progress there will be a message on the ATIS informing you.

FYI we do not have the luxury that you may have experienced at LHR and LGW of a permanent Lighting Panel Operator (LPO) who is an expert at manipulating the lights on their taxiways to give your route that personal touch.

The Ground controller is responsible for the operation of the lights at MAN. The panel is about 4 metres left of the control position and so what you will normally see in the dark at MAN is a "sea of green" and have to find your way with the help of the signs, your map and our instructions! :)

We should always wait until traffic on final has passed before dropping the stop-bar. If we don't, what point is there to having it there in the first place?

If pilots want to come up to the Tower and see what it all looks like from our end, drop me an email and we'll sort it out.

(typos)


[This message has been edited by cossack (edited 23 February 2001).]

[Zulu]

Thanks for all your replies - cossack, I've e-mailed you about a visit.

[This message has been edited by Zulu (edited 25 February 2001).]

[spotwelder]

It is entirely inappropriate to cross a red stopbar. The Manchester issues may be related to a "poll 1" function associated with the light control system and other addressable light system issues. The poll 1 function was examined by my team and considered to be highly inappropriate for aerodrome use, to the surprise of the manufacturers.

I was involved in a project to design the "world's safest runway crossing system" and Manchester is far from it. There are many issues but certainly any teething troubles, such as indicated here, should lead to the closure of one of the runways whilst it is sorted out.

The red stop bar helps to reduce callsign confusion errors as well as others listed here. Please remember that runway incursions account for half of ATC and airport design related accidents.

The proposed legislation for England and Wales (corporate killing) would be very difficult to defend if your procedures had the following:
* inappropriate holding point locations (such as a visual holding point)
* inadequate time built into the crossing clearance system to allow for runway incursion alerts to be successful
* the use of conditional clearances
* aircraft/vehicles crossing the runway on a ground frequency and not runway controller's
* inadequate risk assessment of the procedure
* inadequate design of the lights without using safety critical software.

Are any of these present at Manchester? At least NATS does a much better job of procedure design than other countries (I have investigated incursions in 7 countries)

Any comments?

spotwelder

[Warped Factor]

spotwelder,

I'm sure conditional clearances are in use at pretty much every airport in the UK.

Are you suggesting they are no longer appropriate and should be taken out of MATS Pt 1?

That would be a major handicap to places such as Heathrow.

WF.

[Scottie Dog]

Hi Cossack

If you say the lighting panel is 4 metres from the control position then was it ever designed to be operated by the active controller? And if so was there confusion between metric and imperial measures. I know Mancunians can do many things, but I did not know they had such long arms.

Seriously, it seems that EGCC has always experienced problems with its lighting panel - well as long as I can remember, which is quite some time.

Just as long as you good guys, in the tower and cockpit, keep working well together then we won't end up getting lost on foggy days. (Not like the Flying Tiger many moons ago who diverted in and then couldn't see a single green in front of him when a typical Bollin Valley peasouper enveloped him).

Scottie Dog



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Happiness is a runway without a hump - 06R/24L

[cossack]

Hi Scottie

We've got these new headsets with curly leads that makes stretching to the panel a bit easier. Does pull your ears off though! :)

The layout in any VCR is a compromise. You should have seen the discussions that went on designing it. 50 people came up with 60 alternatives! Only kidding!

When in LVPs we use the controller who previously controlled the new runway's (now closed) traffic as a second GMC controller. They monitor the frequency and operate the lighting panel for GMC.

spotwelder

Just a few questions:

What is a "poll 1" function?
What would be in your ideal "world's safest runway crossing system"?
What's wrong with conditional clearances? They've been used for ages, they're in the MATS Part 1 and are a necessity for shifting traffic.
Have you ever been a Controller and if so where?

If you have worked on the Manchester project you should know where our holding points are.
G1, H1, F1 and D1 are 105m from the centreline which is standard CAT1.

HZ1, FZ1 and DZ1 are 75m from the centreline which are visual holds to which you refer. These can only be used when 06L/24R is being used for deparures since they are within the ILS area.

HZ2, FZ2 and DZ2 are 137m from the centreline and are CAT2/3 holds.

Visual holds have been in use elsewhere for holding at departure runways. I realise there is less time to react to a possible runway incursion since they are closer to the runway, but they will only be used in visual conditions not LVP.

What is the problem with conditional clearances? (Worth repeating I thought)

All runway crossings at Manchester are on the appropriate runway controller's frequency.

As for your last two points, as a humble ATCO who only uses the stuff I am not involved in the design and have no knowledge of it.

I look forward to being enlightened.

[Zulu]

Cossack - thanks for the visit. It was well worth it, even if I was a year and a half late!
Let me know if you're ever near STN and I'll try to arrange a j/s ride.

Z

[HarryBucket]

when using stop bars, I agree with all the guys that say there is never a time (exception of u/s stopbars) when a pilot or vehicle should cross a red stopbar. When giving a conditional onto the runway, I wait until I can see the inbound, so that I have a reasonable assurance that the pilot of the a/c concerned can see it, then I will turn the stopbar to green. To me, this is using conditional clearances in the same as in daylight when stopbars are not in operation. If we can trust pilots during the day to line up after the landing when they can see the lander, then why should we treat them any differently at night or LVP's.

In the case of vehicles, I believe that they should all be encouraged not to cross red stopbars and to query with ATC if they have not been extinguished. Most drivers are switched on and professional but some aren't and as the callsigns are not assigned to an individual driver but the vehicle they find themselves in, it is hard to recognise the driver. Treat them all the same and hopefully it will eliminate or at least reduce the number of vehicle runway incursions.

[ATCO Two]

Harry Bucket,

I cannot believe what I am reading here. You cannot have different rules for aircraft and vehicles for crossing red stop bars. As for putting a green route onto a runway in front of a landing aircraft, that is positively dangerous!! You are operating in a fail/dangerous mode rather than a fail/safe one. You have to cater for the lowest common denominator, perhaps a foreign pilot who is unfamiliar with your aerodrome whose airmanship is well below that expected, whose English is poor and who is tired after a series of long sectors. Could you trust such a person NOT to blithely follow the green centreline and line up in front of the lander? Is this "technique" of yours Unit policy or just your own idiosyncracy? I have failed people on assessments for doing as you suggest and as an ex Inspector of ATC I (probably) know what I am talking about. I seriously think that someone should have a talk to your LCE. If you disagree with me then why not phone ATSSD and ask for their opinion on the matter. Why not wait a few seconds until the landing aircraft has passed and then select the route - hardly a huge increase in workload.

[Spoonbill]

Harry, got to agree with atco2 completely.
For reasons known only to senior management, only switch on the stop bars during LVPs, although every holding point (inc. non precision approach runways) have them.
We, ( as I assume other airports do), have different categories of LVPs, which gradually reduce which vehicles can go onto the manouvering area, and the routes which they and aircraft are allowed to use, according to the reduction in visibility.
That said, crossing of a red stopbar is a hanging offence for any driver and pilot.
Drivers have their airport driving permit suspeneded immediately, and pilots are MOR'd,
Simple as that. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[HarryBucket]

ATCO2

In my last post I did not condone the crossing of red stopbars at all, unless the stopbar is continuously red due to a lighting fault and an individual instruction given to the aircraft concerned.

In daylight, do all ATCO's give conditional clearances and use the stopbars, or rely on the pilot to line up after the lander without the aid of stopbars? Why should it be any different at night if the controller and pilot are visual with the landing aircraft?

[ATCO Two]

HB,

A moot point entirely as stopbars are not in use in daylight unless LVPS. What you suggest is dangerous and everything I said in my previous posts still stands. I say again, is it policy at your Unit? I'm not going to argue the point any more. I suggest you contact ATSSD and get their views. If you are so convinced that what you do is safe, then you would have no hesitation in doing so. Let us all know the outcome.

[darkangel]

Use of stopbars is actually governed by CAP168-Airfield Licensing, which states that stopbars are to be provided on taxiways associated with runways intended for use in visibilities of less than 800m.This is the point at which many (but not all) airfields institute LVPs. Some airfields (very sensibly) choose to require operation of stopbars by day in visibilities much higher than this e.g. all the time in respect of Manchesters new crossing points.
LVPs are actually the responsibility of the airfield licensee rather than ATC- although ATC are usually involved in designing such procedures- and as such, subject to approval by the relevant Aerodrome Standards Inspector (not the same as ATSSD, the ATC Inspectors). However, the issue of at what point the stopbars should be selected "off" in respect of a conditional clearance is very much an ATC issue and should be clarified in MATS Part1 and (probably)2.

[what cessna?]

Our airfield has a problem with stopbars as well. The Cat 1 hold does not have a stopbar but the Cat 2 hold does. Problem is the Cat 2 hold is some 200 metres further along the taxiway which obviously means any aircraft needing to taxy onto the runway take a lot longer from the Cat 2 hold. Our procdures state that at night the Cat 2 hold is to be used and selected on when an aircraft is on final approach within 4 miles regardless of weather conditions as when the stopbar is deselected the lead on lights (green/yellow) lead straight on to the runway and the standard boards at the Cat 1 hold are considered insufficient to prevent a runway incursion. Thus the scenario is this - an aircraft proceeds to the cat ONE hold as you can see the aircraft being vectored to the ILS is far enough away to consider getting the departure away before the inbound. TMA won't release the outbound and the inbound now is approaching four miles. If the outbound has gone passed the Cat TWO hold he must be instructed to stop and seen to be stationary, then the Cat TWO Stopbar illuminated, then the inbound can be cleared to land. The outbound is now on an unlit taxiway. If a conditional clearance is given the lead on lights shouldn't be turned on until the risk of a runway incursion is eliminated (i.e. the landing aircraft is nearly over the threshold). All well and good? What is there to stop the guy on the unlit taxiway crossing the un-stopbarred Cat ONE hold? NOTHING!! So do you not give conditional clearances at night and lead to a backlog of departure at a busy time? or say stuff that use the Cat ONE hold regardless and leave the lead on lights ON all the time, relying on the proffesional pilots to obey the standard Cat ONE holding point boards?
You can decide. (The Cat one hold is getting a stop bar soon!)

[cossack]

darkangel
Lighting at crossing points by day is not required at MAN.

[ATCO Two]

I have been so appalled by some of the replies to this thread that I have consulted with higher Authority (if you get my drift). This higher Authority agrees entirely with my interpretation of the situation, namely that red stop bars should NEVER be crossed unless the ATCO has specifically given clearance to do so due to a lighting fault. Any technical issues or vagaries in the system affecting this basic tenet should be taken up urgently through ATC Operations or the Aerodrome Authority. The practice of supressing stop bars and selecting green lead on lights in front of a landing aircraft at night as part of a conditional clearance is DANGEROUS, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. I would be obliged if anyone who has an issue with this could e-mail me directly. This whole subject is a serious flight safety and competency issue.

[WonkyVectors]

Atco two - Agreed.

[beaglepup]

B4 you chunter, LOOK at the posts, and "Try" and imagine MIA aka "Monkeys In Anoraks" sorry MA, PLC. being in tne "real world" eg AMESS, the cruddy accounts heap of cr*p
Scmidt, an even bigger heap of CR*P and R2, the part time heap of cr*p