Shannon vs Shanwick

[None]

What is the protocol to receive a new oceanic entry clearance when too early at the entry point?

We were airborne EINN and going to be 10 minutes early at the entry point, so we told Shannon Center. They said they would send the revised estimate to Shanwick. About 10 minutes later we asked Shannon if we were cleared to enter the track at the revised estimate, their response being "we have revised the estimate with Shanwick." So, are we cleared in, or have they only revised the estimate? After a few more radio calls we cleared it up. What were we suppose to have done? (Should we have called clearance delivery in the air? Does that go right to the authority?)

[Numpo-Nigit]

It's a while since London ACC had a direct interface with the Shanwick boundary, so my recollection may be out-of-date. However, assuming you were flying a jet, my understanding is that it is your responsibilty to recall the Clearance Delivery frequency for a re-clearance if you are unable to comply with the clearance that has been issued. Different rules may apply to propeller-driven aircraft.

[Jumbo Jockey]

If in doubt the answer must always be to query direct with Shanwick to make sure. This is in compliance with a rule of thumb I have always found useful under such circumstances: I'd rather do something it subsequently turns out I didn't have to do (in this case re-check with Shanwick) than NOT do something I should have!

[ayrprox]

I'm not on oceanic controller, however I do work on the sectors that join the oceanic airspace.For departures from EINN,EIDW and scottish airfields which enter between 55N10w and 58N10w we will pass an updated estimate to shanwick and unless they tell us otherwise we will assume that the clearance previously given stands with the new estimates. Traffic going north of 58N will pass their time revisions themselves either Via the CDO frequencies or you can tell us and we can pass it along.
I'm not sure whether shannon works to the same rules but would have thought that it was not that much different to ourselves

[Roger That]

See http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/enr/2020205.pdf - para 7.5 - and it should explain things from the pilot side.

From the ATC viewpoint, the Shanwick / Shannon Letter of Agreement (LOA) states much the same thing so there is a double requirement (on the crew and the ajoining ATS provider)

Hope that helps, if not e-mail me for more.

RT

[s'lick]

as an Oceanic Controller, I can confirm that what my Scottish Hi-level colleague says is correct. The clearance you get from us is based on the initial estimate given - if that is changed due wind etc. by 3 minutes or more then you SHOULD call again on our VHF CDO freq's or on HF to check whether your new time is OK or not. However, in the above stated circumstance, the Shannon controller would have passed that revision onto us for you and, if your clearance changes they will tell you.
THis only works if you tell the Adjacent ATC centres to pass the revision to us i.e. Scottish / Shannon / Brest / Madrid.

You would never have got us on VHF to do it yourself because you would probably be outside our CDO's range near Shannon.

Points of Information - a CDO is a Clearance Delivery Officer based at Prestwick - an assistant who receives requests and issues clearances as decided by the controllers.
The people you talk to on HF are RADIO OPERATORS based at Ballygirreen just north of Shannon.(i.e. not controllers) They act as relays for all our messages to you and yours to us.

Shanwick controllers only ever talk to other controllers - pain uh?

[no sig]

Something I have never really understood is, Why are the radio operators in Ballygreen and the Controllers located in Prestwick? I'm sure there is some historical reason, anyone know the reasons? It does beg the question would it not have made sense for them to be co-located.

[shamrock]

No Sig,

Have a look at

http://www.irishaviation.net/atlops.htm

and click on ..

SHANWICK: SHANNON/PRESTWICK - BRIEF HISTORY

This should answer your questions on the radio side of things.

Kind rgds,

Shamrock.